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1Greywolf
07-08-2013, 13:12
There seems to be a missunderstanding regarding what is restricted and allowed based on the fire restrictions notice
from the NPS issued on July 1, 2013. Some readers of the notice understood that alcohol stoves carried by JMY backpackers
have been banned. Specifically the Inyo National Forest. I have spoken to a Ranger from the Sierra National Forest District Office
She explained that if my stove has a quick fuel cutt-off it's fine to carry. I explained that I will be using an alcohol stove which
has a cover that can quickly cover and extinguish the flame. She said it would be fine then.
Also called the Yosemite Park Ranger, she said they have no restrictions on backpacker's use of alcohol stoves in their park.
Also called the Inyo National Forest Park Office, spoke to the supervisor. She did not know of such restriction. Our conversation

was interrupted when the call dropped. (
Edward J. Snowden is at it again) lol Left a message and she will cal me back.

What have you heard?? Anything different? Please post.

Dogwood
07-08-2013, 13:31
I would call the NP service at the Yosemite Valley Back Country Office about fire/alcohol stove restrictions if hiking the JMT. They would know. I find it unlikely that Yosemite allows one thing yet Inyo or Ansel Adams areas allow something else but do check with the BC Office(this is where you can pick up a JMT permit as well as get information with anything concerning JMT hikers).

1Greywolf
07-08-2013, 18:07
Dogwood, I did check with Yosemite NPS Happy Valley and spoke to a female Ranger she said clearly that they do not have a restriction on alcohol stoves used by backpackers.
I recently spoke to Rich Watt, Captain for the Rangers enforcing the Fire Regs for Inyo National Park Office. He basically restated the language on the Fire restrictions posted on July 1, 2013.Fires: He quoted"

Building, maintaining, attending or using afire, campfire, charcoal, or stove fire, outsideof designated recreation sites. The exceptionwould be a portable stove using gas, jelliedpetroleum, or pressurized liquid fuel. 36 CFR261.52(a). This makes campfire permits Inva-lid for these areas. Campfires are allowedonly in designated sites.
His interpretation is that if a stove does not use the three approved fuels it is not approved. When I explained the amount of fuel my alcohol stove uses to boil 2 1/2 cups of water he asked if my stove had a shut off valve. If it does not it the stove does not comply with current language used in the restrictions in vogue. He also said that he will try to clarify with higher ups to see if small stoves using alcohol can be allowed. He was very nice and appreciated my questions. He also said that current language is not as up dated as the new technology of stoves now being used.

I was also informed that each National park has the right to include additional restrictions that apply to their individual conditions. As long as the restrictions are more restrictive and not less restrictive of the rules published. It sounds arbitrary and conflicting, but thats how government works.

Mags
07-08-2013, 18:50
Seems like, barring any further exceptions, that alchy stoves are currently not allowed during these type of restrictions. At least that is what the gentlemen who fights fires for a living stated anyway....

I know in Colorado, with similar rules, the powers-that-be are very adamant about no alchy stoves during these types of restrictions. Did not help that a fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Park_fire) last year was started by an alchy stove user (http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_20654312/hewlett-fire-near-fort-collins-at-7-673).

May be a good idea to take a canister stove (or not stove at all) and not worry about regs and possible fines....

Pedaling Fool
07-08-2013, 19:29
...spoke to a female Ranger......But was she hot:)

Dogwood
07-08-2013, 20:34
I find it very admirable that you want to abide by regulations especially in light of fire risks.... Do what you want in regard to stoves or no stove(Notice I said nothing about starting campfires?) but I find it VERY VERY VERY UNLIKELY that ANYONE only associated with Inyo or Sierra National Forests or John Muir or Ansel Adams Wildernesses, the areas other than Yosemite and Sequoia/Kings Canyon NPs the JMT is routed through, will bother you ON THE JMT ABOUT YOUR TYPE OF STOVE. If anyone associated with those non National Park areas was so concerned about what types of stoves(alchy or compressed gas) JMTers were using I find it HIGHLY PROBABLE they would have PROMPTLY notified the National Parks who issue JMT thru-hikers permits! I assume you talked DIRECTLY with the Back Country Office in Yosemite Valley! They are one office responsible for issuing JMT thru-hiker permits AND in all most likely hood is the office who issues MOST of the JMT thru-hikers permits. Agencies, as well as the Forest Service and those who supervise the Wilderness areas know this. Personally, after having done 3 JMT thru-hikes as well as the PCT and the Sierra High Route as well as other hikes in all those areas I've yet to meet any official other than a National Park Back Country Hiking Ranger. Personally, if the NP Yosemite Valley Back Country Office who issues JMT thru-hiking permits says it's OK to roll with an alchy stove I would go with that AND in the VERY VERY VERY UNLIKELY EVENT anyone outside the Nat Pk Service might inquire about what type of stove you are using I would tell them what you were told at the BC Office in Yosemite Valley.

If it's that BIG an issue(and it doesn't have to be!) and you got a UL isobutane stove problem solved. Roll with the isobutane stove. It's not like the JMT is the AT. You'll only need two 8 oz canisters of Isobutane on an entire JMT thru-hike AT THE VERY MOST! 220 miles of isobutane fue for the entire JMTl! You can also buy replacement cans at VVR or mail a can there or to other places(Tuolomne Meadows, Reds Meadow, Mammoth Lakes, VVR, Muir Trail ranch, as well as to other places). SOME of these places have hiker boxes and also quite possibly sell isobutane cans. *REMEMBER, there's a USPO in Yosemite Valley VERY NEAR the BC Office and within walking distance of the HI TH as well as at Tuolome Meadows(almost on the JMT) where you can mail stuff pre-hike. You don't have to haul EVERYTHING on your travels to the JMT Trail Heads from North Carolina. Of course, check with the USPO open hrs and mail ahead and make sure, just like anywhere else you mail stuff on a hike, that it works into your hiking plans. Besides, if you're going SOBO I find it logistically wise to avoid a HUGE HEAVY haul up from Happy Isles to Tuolomne Meadows at the start of a 200+ mile thru-hike anyhow which is why I'll sometimes send a resupply box to TM or buy some more food there to break up the food wt. haul. Organize your hike how you wish though.

DaFireMedic
07-08-2013, 23:17
It sounds like they have adopted the forestry standard, similar to my local mountains. The wording is almost exactly the same, right down to the incorrect "jellied petroleum" description of Sterno type fuels. Its pretty clear that the letter of the law is that no wood, alcohol, or Esbit stoves are allowed except in designated areas. Enforcement in my local mountains is inconsistent, as is the knowledge of the exact rules by any given ranger, but I'd expect that the "by the book" type rangers will likely cite you. If they have indeed adopted these rules, then I would expect hikers would have started being informed of this on July 1 when getting their permits, and rangers would begin enforcing it similar to wilderness permits.

The bigger question to me is what constitutes a "designated site". I am assuming that by this that they mean established campfire rings, which is the only place that campfires were allowed anyway along the majority, if not all of the JMT. I have to think that any of the stoves, be it wood, alcohol, etc would be allowed within those rings. This is something that needs to be verified.

I had been planning to bring my 1 oz wood/esbit stove next year. I still may be able to, but I'm going to have to do some checking and verifying of where they are allowed. I like the convenience of the JetBoil anyway so its not that big of a deal, but I wanted to minimize the weight.

Dogwood
07-09-2013, 00:18
You're question about current alchy stove use on the JMT HAS BEEN ANSWERED by those who know.

"Dogwood, I did check with Yosemite NPS Happy Valley and spoke to a female Ranger she said clearly that they do not have a restriction on alcohol stoves used by backpackers."

DONE!

DaFireMedic
07-09-2013, 02:23
You're question about current alchy stove use on the JMT HAS BEEN ANSWERED by those who know.

"Dogwood, I did check with Yosemite NPS Happy Valley and spoke to a female Ranger she said clearly that they do not have a restriction on alcohol stoves used by backpackers."

DONE!


I wish that I shared your assurances that all is good for the entire JMT based on this Yosemite ranger's interpretation, and I genuinely hope that you are right. But I'm not willing to bet $3000 or more that her interpretation applies to the entire JMT. Each jurisdiction has their own fire regulations and Yosemite's regulations do not necessarily apply in the others, even in Sequoia or Kings Canyon National Parks. Hopefully, those issuing the JMT permits are up on the pertinent regulations in the other jurisdictions. I tend to take Capt. Watt's interpretation over a Yosemite ranger's when talking about Inyo jurisdiction. I've been dealing with these issues for several years now and have talked with a great many rangers and forestry personnel, most of whom have slightly different interpretations of the regulations. One thing they all agree on is that wood fires are their main concern, and that its a $3000 fine (in this area) for violating the campfire regulations, which includes the same language regarding stoves as Capt. Watt quoted for Inyo in 1Greywolf's post. There are plenty of rangers that look at things only through the letter of the law, and while there are some that may let you slide knowing that your stove is being operated safely and within the "spirit of the law", I'm not willing to bet several thousand dollars or more that I'm going to have that ranger be the one that "visits" me at my campsite.

I'm not saying you are wrong and again, I hope that you are right. But I don't agree that the question has been clearly and definitively answered.

Dogwood
07-09-2013, 04:06
Again, I feel it's being made to be more complicated than it need be. Maybe I'm wrong, after all I didn't have the conversation with the Yosemite Valley BC Office(and I would have spoken with several NP BC Office Rangers to get the same story from all of them with their names), but again, in light of what I've heard here, I find it VERY UNLIKELY a JMT thru-hiker would receive a fine based on what was said here based on using an alchy stove. JMT thru-hiking regs aren't all that difficult or complex to follow even when fire restrictions are in effect.

1Greywolf
07-09-2013, 09:43
That is the conundrum of issuing regulations (which as a rule are written as general rules) that are to be applied to specific situations.
Complicating matters is that each "Park" can apply and/or amend the rules if they find that the rules as written are not stringent enough to cover their park's conditions.
The results, based on my conversations with the Yose ranger and Inyo ranger, are that the "Inyo" is instructing their rangers to apply the rules as written and "Yose" more lax.

I also understand Dogwood's point that the probability of a ranger in the Inyo park asks a backpacker if s/he is using an approved stove is unlikely. However,
if that backpacker using an alchy stove should cause a fire...

For me it's not a big deal which stove I'm carrying, it's more the timing. I pretty much had every detail settled. Had mailed my alchy stove and stuff to Yose, then this came up.
The trip will be as exciting and fantastic regardless of the stove I'm carrying. But I like these exchanges, the passion, and the humor.

Ciao you all.

DaFireMedic
07-10-2013, 16:57
I'm dissapointed in some of the regulations, especially those regarding stove types that are probably less of an actual fire danger than many of the pressurized gas stoves, but I understand why they had to put them in place. Conditions are prime for a major fire and I'd rather see the forest remain beautiful and open to use. Here is the PCTA's alert:

http://www.pcta.org/2013/strong-fire-restrictions-on-john-muir-trail-13030/

I've done some checking on the US Forest Service website. They are the ones establishing the regulations in the Inyo and Sierra National Forests, and Sequoia and Kings Canyon have issued stage 2 alerts, which basically prohibit all backcountry fires except pressurized gas stoves. US Forestry is the same agency that set the regulations in my local mountains, which explains the same wording used in the regulations. They are dead serious about enforcement here, including alcohol and Esbit even though they are clear that their main concern is wood fires. I can safely assume that they will be serious about it in Inyo as well. Sterno is allowed because it has anti-spill properties to it and it can be extinguished by replacing the lid. At the moment, alcohol stoves are not permitted locally regardless of whether or not they can be shut off. While you probably would be OK if you explained it to the ranger in Inyo, there are undoubtedly some who will enforce the letter of the law, and alcohol is not considered a "gas" by the BLM nor Forestry regardless of its state while burning. Locally, we've had several devastating fires and a few smaller ones over the past few decades, and even with PR campaigns designs to make people aware of the need to be extremely careful with fire, there are still those 1 in 100 or so that just don't seem to care. This means several dozen careless folks each weekend entering the forest. For these reasons, I support the restrictions (although I believe alcohol and Esbit should be permitted) here even though it prohibits me from using my preferred stoves, as well as any campfires (which I love).

It also says that "designated recreation sites" where campfires and the stoves in question can be used are the campgrounds and recreation sites listed on their website. I didn't see any of the backcountry areas listed, they seem to all be pretty much car camping sites, although I didnt look at all of them. It appears to be pretty clear that in all areas but Yosemite, they are not allowing any campfires nor wood/alchohol/Esbit stoves in the backcountry. I know its not good news, but better safe than sorry.

Dogwood
07-10-2013, 17:36
I would just paint my alchy stove MSR red and write on it ISOBUTANE in big black letters. :) As far as campfires that sounds like a "no go" for the JMTers.

DaFireMedic
07-11-2013, 11:52
I would just paint my alchy stove MSR red and write on it ISOBUTANE in big black letters. :) As far as campfires that sounds like a "no go" for the JMTers.

I actually have a 2.7 oz container of Sterno, which as we know is jellied alcohol, not jellied petroleum as described in the fire regulations. But the rangers all know that Sterno is what is meant by jellied petroleum. I have brought along a small fuel bottle of denatured alcohol. After cooking with the Sterno, the fuel can be reconstituted with .5 - 1 oz of alcohol, depending on how much you used. The alcohol "jellies" in the can and becomes part of the Sterno fuel. You don't have to stir, just put the lid on, pack it away, and it will be ready when you cook again. It essentially makes the can an alcohol stove, but with the anti-spill properties, the ability to extinguish it with the lid, and the Jellied form to satisfy the regulations. The Sterno label on it helps to avoid unwanted attention, but I don't think it would matter as it should meet the requirements of the law anyway. I have found that it boils 2 cups of water about 1 minute slower than my Starlyte, not a big deal. In terms of the 2.7 oz weight, its pretty much all fuel, and you would be carrying that fuel anyway. I've used it twice now on hikes to try it out. It can be used within a Caldera cone, Firemug, etc. as well.

Dogwood
07-11-2013, 12:27
Interesting idea DafireMedic. Stovies rule.

Mags
07-11-2013, 12:45
THis was posted on BPL light today FWIW:

I called the Tahoe Basin Mgmt Unit, spoke to Chris, said no alky stoves in Desolation Wilderness, so I imagine that would apply to Eldorado NF backcountry as well, since I will be going thru Desolation to the area between that and Loon Lake by Two Peaks, then back into Desolation. Opportunity to take a vintage MSR stove instead of a gassie. Six nights or so out, covering some country I have not visited in 15 years or so.
Duane

So, as stated above, depends a lot on the local ranger office's interpretation (or even the individual ranger). More and more on erring on the side of caution, though. Will you get a fine if you take one? Probably won't get caught. But, well a possible $3k fine is a LOT just to save 3oz and not taking a canister stove. :O

Dogwood
07-11-2013, 13:03
Different area of the Sierras Mags. Again, my take is that if the folks(as in more than one folk) who issue the JMT thru-hiker permits and have the MOST and BEST understanding of the JMT thru-hiking regs say something I'm going to abide by what they say. The Backcountry Office NP Rangers in Yosemite NP aren't some un informed half wits at a front desk handing out pamphlets on places to grab a buffet or shop for trinkets. They know the regs for JMTers. And, other agencies that might be associated with other Wilderness or Nat Forest areas the JMT is routed through know this. The Yosemite NP Back Country Office Rangers in Yosemite Valley have to know(it's their jobs and IMHO they do them WELL) the JMT regs in order to issue JMT thru-hiker permits.

Mags
07-11-2013, 13:38
Yes..different area. Just a note that different rangers and different offices have different interpretations.

One may be more liberal..another ranger in the field may slap a fine on you.

Seems awfully silly to take a 3k dollar chance IMO just to save 3oz. As other have stated as well.

MuddyWaters
07-11-2013, 19:57
Building, maintaining, attending or using afire, campfire, charcoal, or stove fire, outsideof designated recreation sites. The exceptionwould be a portable stove using gas, jelliedpetroleum, or pressurized liquid fuel. 36 CFR261.52(a). This makes campfire permits Inva-lid for these areas. Campfires are allowedonly in designated sites.

Nowhere in this does it mention a shut-off valve.
There is no such thing as "jellied petroleum" fuel either, sterno is gelled alcohol
Does gas mean gasoline? It could.
In stoves, the liquid isnt burning, the vaporized GAS above the liquid actually burns. All stoves burn gas.
If they really meant pressurized butane/isobutane cannisters, or white gas, why didnt they just say so?

The regs are clearly written by persons deficient in knowledge of their topic, and how to convey what they really mean, if they even know. They are incomplete and ambiguous.
As such, individuals put their own interpretation into the ruling when asked.

But it is correct, its not worth haggling over. For a trip as long as 8-10 days in the S half, alcohol wont have any weight advantages. I prefer it for the quiet, but my break even spot is 8 days, and my alcohol setup is far lighter than most. (3.0 oz for everything including fuel container) The break even point for most people is half of what mine is. It simply wont make sense.

Berserker
07-15-2013, 12:58
So, as stated above, depends a lot on the local ranger office's interpretation (or even the individual ranger). More and more on erring on the side of caution, though. Will you get a fine if you take one? Probably won't get caught. But, well a possible $3k fine is a LOT just to save 3oz and not taking a canister stove.
I agree with this. I have both alcohol and canister stoves, so I'm just switching out the alcohol stove for the canister stove and not stressing over it. Also, my numbers indicate that the canister stove is actually the lighter option for about half the trip (the alcohol option only becomes lighter closer to re-supplies when the fuel is running low).

DaFireMedic
09-05-2013, 17:07
Just an update, the cause has been determined for the Rim Fire that has burned more than 370 square miles of prime hiking and backcountry area (as well as 111 structures) so far in the Sierras, in and around Yosemite National Park. It was started by a hunter having a campfire in a backcountry area where there is a campfire ban in place at the moment, and it got away from him. Had he been following the rules and using a gas stove, it almost certainly would not have happened. As of today, the fire is the fourth largest in California history and will probably continue to burn for at least another month or so, or until the first good rainstorm of the season.

The bans may be inconvenient and like I said, I enjoy campfires as much as any of us here. But at the moment, there are very good reasons to restrict campfires in some areas

1Greywolf
09-06-2013, 10:47
Hey Dogwood, you were right on. I used my alchy stove in Happy Isles and in the Inyo park with out any concerns.
As I indicated in previous posts (in this thread) the rangers I had contacted assured me that it's use was not an issue.
And it was not. Used with care, as most alchy users do, it is not nor should it be an issue.

By the way, in on of the convenience stores in the Sequoia National Park the were selling Everclear. That's "shine" with a capital "S" 150-proof.
Mixed with denatured alcohol it gave me the cleanest and hottest burn. Highly recommend the mixture.
My posted concerns on the alchy use was due to my over-thinking it. It happens to me when I am preparing for a hike
in an area that I have not been or have very little knowledge of.

Please do not mix the rim fire and the use of alcohol stoves, they are not connected and should not be connected.
It confuses rather than offer sound advice. Rim fire in Yosemite was not caused by an alchy stove or any other kind of backpacker's stove.
Has a backpacker using an alchy stove caused a fire, probably. By definition, all things that burn have the potential to cause a fire.
The use of canister vs alcohol stoves are based on personal preference as we understand their pros/cons.
We can make a case for each at nauseam, and it will remain a personal choice.

See you all on the trail.

DaFireMedic
09-09-2013, 13:52
Please do not mix the rim fire and the use of alcohol stoves, they are not connected and should not be connected.

It confuses rather than offer sound advice. Rim fire in Yosemite was not caused by an alchy stove or any other kind of backpacker's stove.
Has a backpacker using an alchy stove caused a fire, probably. By definition, all things that burn have the potential to cause a fire.
The use of canister vs alcohol stoves are based on personal preference as we understand their pros/cons.
We can make a case for each at nauseam, and it will remain a personal choice.

See you all on the trail.

I hope you did not think that I was in any way connecting the Rim Fire and alcohol stoves. I'm an avid alcohol stove user as well, and hopefully I was clear that the Rim Fire was started by someone with an illegal campfire, NOT an alcohol stove. Alcohol stoves can indeed be used safely with some basic common sense and care, as you would need with any stove or other heating source. I believe they are just as safe as canister stoves when used properly, and safer than many white gas stoves IMO. I am in full support of the use of an alcohol stove.

What I am not in support of is the careless use of fire anywhere, especially in high fire danger areas. This is what caused the Rim Fire.