The AT as a wilderness experience?

[mumbls]

So, I was listening to a podcast in which a backpacking couple were being interviewed, and one of them had mentioned that as a wilderness experience she wouldn't recommend the AT over PCT or CDT. She mentioned that she perceived the crowd as 'young and rowdy'.

So I guess I'm really curious if, as someone who is seeking a so-called 'wilderness experience', How accurate is this perception? Would I be disappointed with the AT's wilderness feel? Is this a really long party?

[Lone Wolf]

So, I was listening to a podcast in which a backpacking couple were being interviewed, and one of them had mentioned that as a wilderness experience she wouldn't recommend the AT over PCT or CDT. She mentioned that she perceived the crowd as 'young and rowdy'.

So I guess I'm really curious if, as someone who is seeking a so-called 'wilderness experience', How accurate is this perception? Would I be disappointed with the AT's wilderness feel? Is this a really long party?
go SOBO. NOBO in march and april is a zoo. or go NOBO starting in may

[dmax]

Carry a weeks worth of food. That will drop your town stops and keep you in the woods more.

[Malto]

While the AT provides many things, I won't say a wilderness experience is high on that list. There are things such as SoBo or off season that will give a bit more isolation but there is no comparison between the AT and PCT in the wilderness experience. The parts of the CDT that I have seen or more on par with the PCT.

[Dogwood]

"...as a wilderness experience she wouldn't recommend the AT over PCT or CDT."

I agree with that much of their assessment. BUT, buyer beware, - opinions vary. I would say as I heard Mags say the AT is a "WILD" experience more so than a wilderness experience. Depends on what you think of when you say "wilderness."

One more thing. Before you have the thought that you want to jump right into true "wilderness." IMHO, some folks(perhaps many), when faced with true wilderness for many nights, possibly wouldn't be ready for it or even be able to cope with it and themselves. Just a thought.

[moldy]

I agree 100% that the AT is not a wilderness experience. Not because of anybody being rowdy. It's not wilderness by the definition of what a wilderness is. There might one or two tiny spots on the AT but that's it.

[Praha4]

HOW “WILD” IS THE A.T.?The well-known plaque at Springer Mountain in Georgia describes the A.T. as “a footpath for those who seek fellowship with the wilderness.” What does that mean? The Trail will indeed take you deep into some of the wildest and most remote woodlands of the eastern United States. But true “wilderness,” in the sense of untouched wild country, is rare, even on the A.T. Much of the land that the Trail follows was once farmland—even the steep, stony, remote slopes—and nearly all of it has been logged at some time during the last four centuries. Except for bears, bobcats, and coyotes, most large natural predators have been exterminated.

In the twentieth century, though, much of the formerly settled land was incorporated into state and national parks and forests. On that land, forests and wildlife have returned. As you walk through what seems like primeval wilderness, you're likely to run across old stone walls or abandoned logging roads or the foundations of nineteenth-century homesteads. The federal government has designated some of those areas as protected wilderness areas, which strictly limits the ways in which they can be used. Today, the mountains teem with creatures of all sorts, from microbes to moose. To the casual hiker who knows only the woods of a suburban park, it can seem very wild indeed.

One good way to look at the “wilderness” of the A.T. is as a series of long, skinny islands of wildness, surrounded by a sea of populated valleys inhabited by working farms and suburban communities. In the vast national forests of the South and the spreading timberlands of northern New England, those “islands” are somewhat broader. But, even in its wildest places, the A.T. hiker is rarely more than a strenuous day's walk from the nearest highway or community

[Feral Bill]

For wilderness on the AT try northern New England in mid-winter.

[max patch]

You don't have to sleep in, or even near, the shelters. You can avoid the "rowdyness" if you really want to.

[flemdawg1]

Half of the AT is in designated "Wilderness" Areas (source 2010 Thru-Hiker's Companion). But as far as the "feel" of the experience, you are never from some reminder of civilization (road, structure, overflying aircraft, people). And since most people CHOOSE to stay near the shelters, the feeling of being far from the "real world" never quite goes away.

As others have said, if you want a wilderness experience, go during the off-season, and don't stay at shelters. Or just go on one of the countless other trails, that aren't the AT. Most trails don't see 1/10-to 1/100th the traffic.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

I've only hiked a very small portion of the trail, and in none of the areas that could rightly be called "wilderness", but that was mostly be design. Ours was meant to be an introduction to nature but not complete immersion (we're not ready for that yet). Thus, I'm no judge as to whether or not parts of the AT can be considered wild.

I can however, comment on the "party" aspect of the trail. Most of the other hikers we encountered were solo or in pairs and quietly trekking along their way. We didn't stay at shelters, but visited a few and noticed no rowdiness. The only evidence we had of that kind of behavior occured when we rested at the turnoff to the Rocky Mtn Shelter in PA and were joined by a couple of young men and their dog. For reasons beyond my understanding they thought it was a good idea to start rolling a joint in front of us - a middle-aged grandma and her 11yr old grandson. I got Snacktime out before he realized what was going on. He didn't need to be exposed to stupid young-adult behavior.

I'm not actually being judgemental on their pot use: I'm condemning their stupidity. It's still illegal, and whipping out the bag in front of a kid is tantamount to selling in a school zone. Idiots.

[Sunwolf]

I'm going into my AT thru hike entirely based on reading these boards. I fully expect to see drunks having shootouts with bears, rangers and ridgerunners pummeling unruly hippy hikers with large sticks, ex-military types patroling the trail armed with m4s and tactical shotguns, and random dayhikers stripping off all their clothing and running in circles whilst howling at the sky and waving their hands in the air like they just don't care.

[max patch]

ex-military types patroling the trail armed with m4s and tactical shotguns,

You may actually see this. Rangers frequently engage in "war games" as part of their training in the first half of the GA section. Sometimes you'll think that war has broken out.

[Sunwolf]

You may actually see this. Rangers frequently engage in "war games" as part of their training in the first half of the GA section. Sometimes you'll think that war has broken out.

Good thing I've decided to pack a small yet colorful water pistol. I will charge the rangers, screaming random epithets whilst squirting them so they can practice what they've learned.

[tarditi]

Half of the AT is in designated "Wilderness" Areas (source 2010 Thru-Hiker's Companion). But as far as the "feel" of the experience, you are never from some reminder of civilization (road, structure, overflying aircraft, people). And since most people CHOOSE to stay near the shelters, the feeling of being far from the "real world" never quite goes away.

As others have said, if you want a wilderness experience, go during the off-season, and don't stay at shelters. Or just go on one of the countless other trails, that aren't the AT. Most trails don't see 1/10-to 1/100th the traffic.

In VA you must camp at designated sites... hit or miss, depends on time of year and presence of water resupply - may be occupied, may not.
Many places you can still see signs of civilization, hear planes or highways... hard to get away entirely, but you can tune it out and focus on the more natural sounds and rhythms.

[Pedaling Fool]

Good thing I've decided to pack a small yet colorful water pistol. I will charge the rangers, screaming random epithets whilst squirting them so they can practice what they've learned.Please have someone video that and load it up on youtube:D

[Alleghanian Orogeny]

Good thing I've decided to pack a small yet colorful water pistol. I will charge the rangers, screaming random epithets whilst squirting them so they can practice what they've learned.

I believe Max Patch is referring to US Army Rangers, not NF or NP rangers. I have two nephews who in recent years earned the Ranger badge early in their US Army careers. The Ranger candidates and active-duty Rangers are of course not running around the North Georgia mountains with live ammunition, but screwing around with them while they're trying to complete a grueling course is not something I'd recommend. It would be, at the very least, incredibly disrespectful. Far better for us who are merely out for a lark to step aside and let the Rangers do their thing.

AO

[Lone Wolf]

In VA you must camp at designated sites...

this is not true

[Sunwolf]

I believe Max Patch is referring to US Army Rangers, not NF or NP rangers. I have two nephews who in recent years earned the Ranger badge early in their US Army careers. The Ranger candidates and active-duty Rangers are of course not running around the North Georgia mountains with live ammunition, but screwing around with them while they're trying to complete a grueling course is not something I'd recommend. It would be, at the very least, incredibly disrespectful. Far better for us who are merely out for a lark to step aside and let the Rangers do their thing.

AO

An excellent point. In that case I'm sure they'd appreciate my stopping by for a chat. Of course by that time I will have been in the woods for at least a few nights. I'm sure the Rangers would appreciate me giving them advice on things like how to properly pack their packs, how to filter water, LNT principles and most importantly, how to properly train for a long-distance hike.

[max patch]

Far better for us who are merely out for a lark to step aside and let the Rangers do their thing.



Exactly. Its clear to me that the Rangers have been instructed to ignore any hikers they come across. I'm sure they would like us to give them the same consideration.

[Pedaling Fool]

An excellent point. In that case I'm sure they'd appreciate my stopping by for a chat. Of course by that time I will have been in the woods for at least a few nights. I'm sure the Rangers would appreciate me giving them advice on things like how to properly pack their packs, how to filter water, LNT principles and most importantly, how to properly train for a long-distance hike.Don't listen to any of these old fuddy duddies, just make sure you load it up on youtube :)

[Teacher & Snacktime]

Good thing I've decided to pack a small yet colorful water pistol. I will charge the rangers, screaming random epithets whilst squirting them so they can practice what they've learned.

We're not talking park rangers here.....you might want to think twice about wielding and screaming at these guys......:)

[Drybones]

It depends on your meaning for "wilderness", if you want seclusion it will be hard to find on the AT, you'll always run into people, There's much more seclusion on the Pinhoti, I rarely see anyone when I hike there in the winter. True "wilderness" will be hard to find, I spent a week in the Weminuche Wilderness in the Rockies, which, according to Backpacker magazine, is the most remote area in the continental US and still saw people.

[Dogwood]

I'm going into my AT thru hike entirely based on reading these boards. I fully expect to see drunks having shootouts with bears, rangers and ridgerunners pummeling unruly hippy hikers with large sticks, ex-military types patroling the trail armed with m4s and tactical shotguns, and random dayhikers stripping off all their clothing and running in circles whilst howling at the sky and waving their hands in the air like they just don't care.

Yeah, you could experience that or things similar to that on the AT!

I've seen: my share of drinkers or those obviously wacked out on their drug(s) of choice or meds on the AT having arguments or talks with wildlife, trees, themselves, other people, etc. People shooting guns. I don't think at other people though. And a couple of, VERY concerning to me, intoxicated folks shooting guns on the AT. It's usually time to go in those situations. Groups of armed LEOs looking for a possible suicidal hiker arriving at a MD shelter at 3 a.m. The military playing war games in the area around Camp David which the perimeter of isn't far from the AT proper. Sometimes they stealth and find it enjoyable to jump up from their hiding spots in dug trenches or from behind boulders or trees to screw with AT hikers. LOL. Had two, complete with full camo on and face paint and mock weapons, but most wouldn't have know the weapons were fake, thinking they had completely concealed themselves hiding about 40 ft from me while I was sitting on a stump catching my breath. They thought I wasn't aware of them. Hopefully, they got better at their jobs. Hiking through a Civil War reenactment complete in full period clothing and the discharging of era period guns that I didn't immediately realize were not letal! Hikers who were legally escorted to, let's just say, other places. A couple of in town fist fights between whoever. Plenty of nippies and pubes, and sometimes a lot more, on Hike Naked Day or at the bonfire/drum circle at Trail days. Lots of bare arses when I went to Trail Days last, which admittedly was 7 yrs ago. Caught couples twice bumping uglies. All this stuff is what makes an AT thru-hike an AT thru-hike BUT IS NOT A REGULAR OCCURRENCE. I had to put that in there in case some ignorant non-hiker thinks otherwise.

But since you are in CO if you hike the CT there's a section near Jefferson where there are signs saying "STAY ON TRAIL". Why?, was my question. Then I started hearing the sounds of REAL GUNS being fired with REAL AMMO from a nearby gun range.

[Dogwood]

Good thing I've decided to pack a small yet colorful water pistol. I will charge the rangers, screaming random epithets whilst squirting them so they can practice what they've learned.

I don't care if you have a pink water pistol with yellow polka dots on it and it's loaded with grape jelly. That's prolly a VERY questionable thing to do around LEOs. People have been shot or called when LEOs have even suspected someone of having a weapon!

[Mags]

I wrote this before:

IS THE AT A WILDERNESS EXPERIENCE?

The AT, except for maybe a few isolated parts in New England (and perhaps even smaller parts of the southern Appalachians), is not really a wilderness experience. The corridor is narrow and is often well used. It is, however, a wildness experience. A refuge where hikers can experience ,if not wilderness, at least a wild, beautiful and inspiring area. Being on Franconia Ridge on a gorgeous crisp day? Seeing the first wildflowers of Spring? Hearing the loons on a quiet lake in Maine? The AT may not be wilderness, but it has wildness in spades.

[Odd Man Out]

I agree 100% that the AT is not a wilderness experience. Not because of anybody being rowdy. ...

I agree with this. It is not temporary visitors (rowdy or quite) that determines wilderness. It's what's there after the party ends that makes the wilderness. Buildings, residents, roads, signs, lack of native flora and fauna are what detract from wilderness. You can always choose to avoid the party.

[Coffee]

I haven't done nearly as much of the AT as many here but I have been on the trail quite a bit this year mostly in Northern Virginia. I have rarely gone more than an hour or so before encountering other hikers on the AT itself and usually there are many more. Maybe this is because most of my hiking is on weekends but the AT seems like a crowded trail with not much solitude. However, at least in SNP, there are miles and miles of side trails where I haven't ever seen anyone and every time I have camped in the SNP backcountry I have camped in places with no other campers visible (also mostly on weekends). So the solitude and wilderness is nearby to those who seek it out at least in this area and, I suspect, in many other areas the AT passes through.

[Dogwood]

I always consider a hike a wilderness experience when the trail goes through a building, down sidewalks, through towns, has shelters nearly every 7 miles or so, has a UBER number of 2"x 6"white blazes painted on nearly everything one can be painted on(so I don't get lost?), an OVERWHELMING amount of analyses and info associated with it, virgin timber is virtually unheard of, etc etc etc.

[hikerboy57]

if you want a wilderness experience, it involves finding a place where you wont see anyone for days.this doesnt happen on the at.
try north of katahdin or adirondack park in ny,north woods. otherwise not much wilderness in the east.

[Rasty]

if you want a wilderness experience, it involves finding a place where you wont see anyone for days.this doesnt happen on the at.
try north of katahdin or adirondack park in ny,north woods. otherwise not much wilderness in the east.

Smokies in January and February is pretty close.

[hikerboy57]

Smokies in January and February is pretty close.

as would be maine and northern nh in winter.
but still not wilderness in the real sense.still clearcuts, still road crossings,still towns, still little or no old growth forests.
but thats part of the fun winter hiking for me, knowing im not 100 miles from nowhere gives me a bit more security, and still get that feeling of wildness, because the trails are pretty sparsely populated during winter months..

[Mags]

It depends on your meaning for "wilderness", if you want seclusion it will be hard to find on the AT, you'll always run into people, There's much more seclusion on the Pinhoti, I rarely see anyone when I hike there in the winter. True "wilderness" will be hard to find, I spent a week in the Weminuche Wilderness in the Rockies, which, according to Backpacker magazine, is the most remote area in the continental US and still saw people.

i am surprised BPer Mag said that. Relatively easy to access. Nevada, Idaho, Utah and Montana have more remote areas IMO. Check out the Frank-Church wildrness. 300 mi w/o a road crossing !

[jeffmeh]

HOW “WILD” IS THE A.T.?

Except for bears, bobcats, and coyotes, most large natural predators have been exterminated.



And while some want to deny it, mountain lions are back. Perhaps it is a good thing that most people are not aware of it.

Foxes are also abundant, while perhaps not "large" (relative term)

If one is really fortunate, he could also spot the elusive Fisher. Beautiful, vicious, and absolutely no threat to people....

That's my wildlife rant. I agree with your post. :)

[bfayer]

this is not true

Quite right LW.

As for the AT being wilderness, some parts are pretty close depending on your definition, other parts not so much. Much of it can feel like wilderness if you hike out of thru hiker season and not on the weekends. There are many parts in VA where you can hike for miles and feel like you are in the middle of nowhere, but then look at a map and see that someones backyard is less than a quarter mile away. Other parts actually pass right through someones backyard.

But wilderness or not, once you get to the top of a mountain with a 360 view and realize that the only way anyone is going to see what you are seeing is to walk up that same trail, and that 99.9% of the folks in this country will never do it, the fact that you saw 100 people that day, or that you could hear someone mowing their lawn for 3 miles of your morning hike just doesn't matter much.

[Tuckahoe]

What I am reading here is that people equate solitude or remoteness with wilderness. To me they are not one in the same.

[Captn]

I for one chose the AT, and section hiking it as a life goal, because it is such a social trail. I've always found someone to camp / hike with during my wheel long visits to the trail and bought a few beers for quite a few thru's as well, as well as lending an interested ear for their stories. I've met a lot of interesting and awesome people during these trips ..... Which makes these experiences all the more memorable. Yes, I've run into a few characters as well, but that just adds some spice.

[Pedaling Fool]

And while some want to deny it, mountain lions are back. Perhaps it is a good thing that most people are not aware of it.

Foxes are also abundant, while perhaps not "large" (relative term)

If one is really fortunate, he could also spot the elusive Fisher. Beautiful, vicious, and absolutely no threat to people....

That's my wildlife rant. I agree with your post. :)I think you're correct about the mountain lion, that's not to say that I think there are sustainable breeding populations on the east coast, but they do seem to be returning. And I've seen those Fishers; weird experience.





However, as I read this thread I notice that perceptions of wilderness differs between people. To me it's a combination of remoteness and lack of infrastructure. I think it was Wingfoot that said the AT provides an illusion of Wilderness. However, with today's technology isn't that the case with all trails, or at least the most popular ones in the lower 48?


If you're on the remotest section of any trail and get into trouble you can call 911 and get helicopter service.

Why are we looking for wilderness? If it's just for the view, than there are a lot of places to go. However, if it's to "get away", well then don't you need to leave your technology at home?

It's kind of like the teenager that thinks he is free and independent, because he stays out late and goes to parties. Yet, the first hint of trouble, he calls his parents.

[Coffee]

Foxes are also abundant, while perhaps not "large" (relative term)

I almost literally ran into a red fox on my morning run along the Washington DC side of the Potomac yesterday. The little guy actually looked a bit confused ... not in the "wilderness" for sure ...

[Namtrag]

I think most people would be truly frightened were they to be placed in true wilderness. As in, 50 miles from the nearest human, etc

[atraildreamer]

And while some want to deny it, mountain lions are back. Perhaps it is a good thing that most people are not aware of it.

Foxes are also abundant, while perhaps not "large" (relative term)

If one is really fortunate, he could also spot the elusive Fisher. Beautiful, vicious, and absolutely no threat to people....

That's my wildlife rant. I agree with your post. :)

Not on the AT, but here in RI there have been several bear sightings in the last couple of months. I was watching the security cameras one night on duty at the CVS corporate HQ in Woonsocket, RI and saw a BIG cat stalking around the perimeter of the main parking lot. I estimated it was the size of a German Shepherd. Not your typical house kitty. I have also spotted coyotes, deer, and various other critters. I had a red fox approach me looking for food. If this is happening in relatively urban RI, the variety of stuff you'll see on the AT should be wild enough to satisfy your need for a wilderness experience.

[kidchill]

Honestly, I think it's a mixed bag. Show up in the 100mile wilderness and start hiking south...YAH! It FEELS like the wilderness, all of ME, and up until the Whites in NH...then there's 8million day packers out there hut-hopping! Then, you hit states like NY and it feels like you're sleeping in people's backyards ('cause really, you are...). Some areas truly are remote/rural, some just feel like you're in a remote area (but you're really not), and then some areas are literally in town...I heard this quote, and I'll probably butcher it, and I'm not even sure who said it (I "think" it was E. Shaffer, regarding his 1st thru vs his latest thru)..."The AT used to be big wilderness with little towns, now it's big towns with little wilderness." I probably butchered it, but really, he's right.

[Pendragon]

It's all kind of relative. I live in North East Florida, and the "woods" around here are the sorriest excuse for "wilderness" I ever experienced. And yes, I've experienced wilderness, having lived and hiked in Alaska, sometimes being the only human being within a hundred square mile area. When I got onto the AT this year for my section hike to Damascus, I honestly felt the closest to true wilderness I had experienced for a very long time, especially coming onto the top of an expansive bald and seeing being able to see what looked like the entire world in every direction. Yes, there were almost always sprinkles of civilization in those landscapes, but they were easily overlooked from my perspective. Down here, my nearby State "forrest" more resembles a train wreck, the heavy handed evidence of man all over the place, with the gnarled remainder seeming to struggle in the heat and sand. On the AT, I would occasionally come across areas of severe weather impact, but down here such seems to be the rule rather than the exception. Plus, the insane straight-line order of tree farm pines can be maddening and sterile. So, as far as I'm concerned, what remains of "wilderness" along the AT is still to my eyes a sight to behold, pictures in my mind my camera could never do justice to, that I will never forget.

[rocketsocks]

I would suggest that being in the wilderness in the East is largely a state of mind, that can be found from time to time but is dependent upon an unconscious willingness of the mind to meld flow and follow....or somethin like that.
When you find yourself in a wilderness state, that's magical...go with it, ride the wave albeit short lived.

[TD55]

AT is a great trail for a bunch of reasons, wilderness experiance ain't one of them. If you go by definition of official wildnerness areas, there are no motor vehicals, bikes, hunting, horses, power tools like chain saws, roads and the best ones require a permit for hiking and camping. So there is silence and crowd control. Plenty of those places in the lower 48, but they are in the west. If you live in the east it's a pleasent two day train trip and a shuttle or bus. Some don't even have trails, map and compasss required.

[BrianLe]

While I agree with much/most of what's been posted on this thread, and I'm certainly the type of person to utter the originating comment ("for wilderness, pick one of the western trails"), I will say that I've seen more moose in a relatively short span on the AT than elsewhere. Indeed if you hike somewhat out-of-season, the trail can be unpopulated and sometimes challenging. The coldest nights I've spent on any long distance trip were on the AT in the south, and I ran into a whole lot of snow on other trips.

I wonder if at times, just on an unconscious level, there's a feeling that comments like "not a wilderness experience" represent an attack. I think that one should be able to say that a trail is not as much of a wilderness experience while nevertheless having a lot of love and respect for that trail.

I guess that it depends on why a person is saying it. If objectively someone is just searching for the most "wilderness experience", the AT isn't it. I'd consider maybe the Yukon and Alaska like Skurka did or something like that. IMO a "wilderness" experience is somewhat relative; even on the CDT I never carried more than 8 days of food and that was only a time or two. Still, night and day in terms of comparing the experience to the AT.

If instead, the point of saying something like that is to put down the AT then ... I think it best to just pass on the conversation. Each trail has its own unique character, its own advantages and disadvantages. The AT isn't my personal favorite, but it's a great trail, a great sort of 'institution', and just an amazing treasure to have in the context of a very populous east coast.

[rickb]

I like Mag's observing the distinction between "wilderness" and "wildness" and his observation that the AT has wildness in spades.

The only thing I might add is that if one wants to really feel the spirit of wildness on the AT to the max, you need take some responsibility yourself to make that happen. Like when deciding where to pitch your tent, when to start you day and how frequently you choose to head int town. But that list goes on.

[Spirit Walker]

The AT is a natural experience, in that you are immersed in nature, but it isn't a wilderness experience. The AT is a park trail. It is well designed and maintained, and it is very well used. You are within sight or sound of roads, houses, and people almost every day. You can go to town every day or two if you choose. There are stretches that feel more remote, but if you are out in summer, you will see a lot of people. At the same time, if you want to spend time in the woods, enjoying the beauty and peace of the outdoors, seeing wildlife of all sorts, experiencing the changes in seasons and life at its most basic - you'll find that on the AT. Nature, but not wilderness.

The western trails are more wild, but they aren't real wilderness either. They are just closer to the real thing. As long as you are following a constructed path that goes from road to road and is used by a number of people, it isn't really wilderness.

[mak1277]

I almost literally ran into a red fox on my morning run along the Washington DC side of the Potomac yesterday. The little guy actually looked a bit confused ... not in the "wilderness" for sure ...

Yep...I have three red foxes living in the "woods" in my subdivision not 100 yards from my house.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

Not on the AT, but here in RI there have been several bear sightings in the last couple of months. I was watching the security cameras one night on duty at the CVS corporate HQ in Woonsocket, RI and saw a BIG cat stalking around the perimeter of the main parking lot. I estimated it was the size of a German Shepherd. Not your typical house kitty. I have also spotted coyotes, deer, and various other critters. I had a red fox approach me looking for food. If this is happening in relatively urban RI, the variety of stuff you'll see on the AT should be wild enough to satisfy your need for a wilderness experience.

We're at the other end of the state, and have our share of wildlife too....wild turkeys walking through the front yard and down the street....in Warren!
RI can be "wild" in many ways, but I can't say there's really much wilderness. Even so, it was a hike on the Trestle Trail that inspired Snacktime and myself to look into hiking the AT in the first place. We haven't seen what would truly be considered wilderness yet, but I suspect we'll encounter sections that will make us feel .....in our east coast suburban ignorance....as if we're fully immersed in it. At least I hope so.

Oh, and glad to see another Rhode Islander!

[Lone Wolf]

Oh, and glad to see another Rhode Islander!
i was born and raised in Wickford, RI

[Teacher & Snacktime]

i was born and raised in Wickford, RI

NO WAY !!!!! Well, it almost feels like a reunion! Now I know to whom I can make RI references....like Dels and Hot Wieners and Autocrat...and know I'll stand a chance of being understood. Thank you LW for letting me know.

[Mags]

4 RIers in one thread! Born and raised in Coventry. Go Oakers! :D

[Shutterbug]

So, I was listening to a podcast in which a backpacking couple were being interviewed, and one of them had mentioned that as a wilderness experience she wouldn't recommend the AT over PCT or CDT. She mentioned that she perceived the crowd as 'young and rowdy'.

So I guess I'm really curious if, as someone who is seeking a so-called 'wilderness experience', How accurate is this perception? Would I be disappointed with the AT's wilderness feel? Is this a really long party?

I guess everyone has their own definition of "wilderness." For me, a wilderness is a place where there is no evidence of human activity. By my definition, any place that has a marked trail can't really be wilderness. To experience a true wilderness experience try a place like the Eagle Cap Wilderness in Oregon. A couple of years ago and friend and I did some trout fishing in the Eagle Cap Wilderness. We walked through the woods to small lakes where there was no sign of human activity -- no trail, no camp sites, no litter and no foot prints. It was a true wilderness experience.

[Lone Wolf]

NO WAY !!!!! Well, it almost feels like a reunion! Now I know to whom I can make RI references....like Dels and Hot Wieners and Autocrat...and know I'll stand a chance of being understood. Thank you LW for letting me know.

johnnycakes and Allies donuts

[MuddyWaters]

The AT is not wilderness.
It has been called WILDNESS however.
Whatever it is , it seems to mostly work.

[Pedaling Fool]

One more thing. Before you have the thought that you want to jump right into true "wilderness." IMHO, some folks(perhaps many), when faced with true wilderness for many nights, possibly wouldn't be ready for it or even be able to cope with it and themselves. Just a thought.Who really has to face "true wilderness"? You're on a marked trail, you have a map and/or guide, you have shelter, you have food, you know where the next food/water sources are.

And you have technology that can get you help if you get into trouble. So even if your are in the wilderness, you're not really in it. Kind of like going the the beach and getting your feet wet and then saying you went swimming in the ocean.

[jeffmeh]

30+ years out of Barrington here. We did make a day trip down to Warren for a family party on the 4th. Won't be down there for the Quahog Festival this year, but we have a few bivalves up here in MA too. :)

[Fakin the Funk]

If you want a wilderness experience, go to the Pisgah area near Brevard. Miles and miles of trails where you will not see a soul, especially in winter. I can only speak for the trail up to the smokies . I am attempting a thru next year, but am starting to have second thoughts. I do not want to be around a bunch of people at all times, and refuse to stay in shelters.

[Tipi Walter]

If you want a wilderness experience, go to the Pisgah area near Brevard. Miles and miles of trails where you will not see a soul, especially in winter. I can only speak for the trail up to the smokies . I am attempting a thru next year, but am starting to have second thoughts. I do not want to be around a bunch of people at all times, and refuse to stay in shelters.

And the Pisgah area around Linville Gorge (Grandfather Ranger District) is also a good place to find solitude. I'm talking about the Upper Creek, Harpers Creek and Lost Cove Creek area. The Mountains to Sea trail runs thru it.

The AT would be more of a "wilderness" experience if backpackers carried enough food to stay out w/o resupply and store/town trips. Or go in February for 3 weeks during a series of kick-butt blizzards and you'll get your bellyful of wilderness. In fact, you may be the only one out.

Nothing kills the feel of wilderness to me more than the roar of near-constant overhead jet traffic. I guess America is covered by the noise with 85,000 or 100,000 flights daily. It ruins the woods. Options? Go deaf. Listen to your headphone music. Wear ear plugs 24/7. Pray for a terrible blizzard like the '93 storm of the century---it will certainly clear the skies. Or sleep right next to a big waterfall.

[Feral Bill]

I guess everyone has their own definition of "wilderness." For me, a wilderness is a place where there is no evidence of human activity. By my definition, any place that has a marked trail can't really be wilderness. To experience a true wilderness experience try a place like the Eagle Cap Wilderness in Oregon. A couple of years ago and friend and I did some trout fishing in the Eagle Cap Wilderness. We walked through the woods to small lakes where there was no sign of human activity -- no trail, no camp sites, no litter and no foot prints. It was a true wilderness experience.

Great area, but on the established trails it is a WINO. Sometimes you just have to bushwhack to get wilderness, as Shutterbug did.

[Cookerhiker]

Regarding the AT as others have said, I don't consider any portion "wilderness" in the same vein as parts of the West because the trail itself is well-marked and cleared, never real far from roads. But you can enhance the "wildness" experience by hiking off-season. Section hiking gives you the freedom to do just that.

If you like the ecosystem of the Eastern hardwood forests but want to encounter less people than the AT, there are plenty of options in the National Forests - George Washington, Monongahela, Pisgah, Nantahala, Cherokee. In addition to trails like the Pinhoti, Art Loeb, Benton MacKaye, Sheltowee, Allegheny, et al, there are plenty of lesser known shorter trails. One good example where there's rarely more than a few people is the Cranberry Wilderness (http://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/mnf/recreation/recarea/?recid=12368) of West Virginia

[hikerboy57]

given the at was originally planned to give easy access from urban areas , its not realistic to consider it wilderness in any sense. the accessibility that makes it the one of the most used trail in north america is contrary to the concept of wilderness.
but we can pretend.....

[Tipi Walter]

Regarding the AT as others have said, I don't consider any portion "wilderness" in the same vein as parts of the West because the trail itself is well-marked and cleared, never real far from roads. But you can enhance the "wildness" experience by hiking off-season. Section hiking gives you the freedom to do just that.

If you like the ecosystem of the Eastern hardwood forests but want to encounter less people than the AT, there are plenty of options in the National Forests - George Washington, Monongahela, Pisgah, Nantahala, Cherokee. In addition to trails like the Pinhoti, Art Loeb, Benton MacKaye, Sheltowee, Allegheny, et al, there are plenty of lesser known shorter trails. One good example where there's rarely more than a few people is the Cranberry Wilderness (http://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/mnf/recreation/recarea/?recid=12368) of West Virginia

I've been saying this all along. There's a vast area south of the GSMNP which includes many national forests and is in the mountains of TN, NC and Georgia. The AT is just a tiny fraction of the available places to go backpacking. Heck, just recently I went on an 18 day winter trip into the Snowbird backcountry and only saw one backpacker the entire time. See below trip report---

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-in-Snowbirds/28813333_Bm4HNt#!i=2446698407&k=KBqv6xh

[Tipi Walter]

given the at was originally planned to give easy access from urban areas , its not realistic to consider it wilderness in any sense. the accessibility that makes it the one of the most used trail in north america is contrary to the concept of wilderness.
but we can pretend.....

Like I said, I don't care what wilderness you are in, having 200 or 300 people flying directly overhead a couple miles up always ruins the wilderness experience. Easy accessibility has ruined it. Wait till we have individual flying cars.

[hikerboy57]

Like I said, I don't care what wilderness you are in, having 200 or 300 people flying directly overhead a couple miles up always ruins the wilderness experience. Easy accessibility has ruined it. Wait till we have individual flying cars.
worse, flying taxis

[slbirdnerd]

You may actually see this. Rangers frequently engage in "war games" as part of their training in the first half of the GA section. Sometimes you'll think that war has broken out.Ranger school is right there in the GA mountains and my son and I saw a large class/platoon out one day (running from an angry nest of bees) and heard a loud training battle the next. Weird to see them out there, but the training is important and I support them.

[Shutterbug]

Like I said, I don't care what wilderness you are in, having 200 or 300 people flying directly overhead a couple miles up always ruins the wilderness experience. Easy accessibility has ruined it. Wait till we have individual flying cars.

I was hiking the Wonderland Trail on 9/11. I didn't focus on how many planes fly over until they stopped. For three days, only one plane flew overhead. You are right that even in remote places, the noise of airplanes flying over distracts from the enjoyment of the wilderness.

[rocketsocks]

Like I said, I don't care what wilderness you are in, having 200 or 300 people flying directly overhead a couple miles up always ruins the wilderness experience. Easy accessibility has ruined it. Wait till we have individual flying cars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhF4gu87rn0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhF4gu87rn0

[Teacher & Snacktime]

4 RIers in one thread! Born and raised in Coventry. Go Oakers! :D

This is getting spooky! Maybe they should divert a blue blaze into RI so we can have an easier access to the trail, since we have so many enthusiasts! We are the only NE state not on the trail....seems unfair.

[stillatit]

mumbis:

As someone who cut his teeth backpacking years ago on the PCT, I will concur with most of what has been said already. The trails are polar divergencies, one truly a wilderness in every sense of the word, one the opposite. However, if you slip on one of the thousands of 2-4 ft. rock drops on the AT in the White Mtns. in New Hampshire (generally absent on the PCT) during a rain storm, you might feel lie you're out in the wilderness, and in certain conditions you might die in that situation. However, help is much closer and so are nearby hikers, so in that sense too the AT is less "wildernessie."

As for the young part of "young and rowdy," I disagree. Not that they form a majority, but a good portion of the AT hikers, including thrus, are 40+ in age. You'll find more female hikers on the AT than on the PCT and CDT. Plenty of hikers on the PCT are young, perhaps the majority. But the rowdy couldn't be more right on! On the PCT one must be far more self-sufficient, far less of a light-weight. There are no shelters and far fewer easy resupply places; one must carry far more stuff. Thus the immaturity present in many AT hikers is far less prominent out west. In the west bears can be more of a problem and so can the weather, even extendedly (though this year the AT has had terrible weather!).

I hope that helps (my two bits' worth).

[gsingjane]

"If you're on the remotest section of any trail and get into trouble you can call 911 and get helicopter service."

Hmmm, I don't think this is true. Number one you have to have service... number two there has to be a Life-Flight within flying distance... and most especially number three, the heli has to be able to retrieve the person. Certainly when you take Wilderness First Aid, you will quickly see that, so far as emergency rescue is concerned, more than a mile from the trailhead is "back-country" and first aid and rescue practices adjust accordingly. So by that standard, the majority of the AT is indeed "wilderness."

[Pedaling Fool]

Hmmm, I don't think this is true. Number one you have to have service... number two there has to be a Life-Flight within flying distance... and most especially number three, the heli has to be able to retrieve the person. Certainly when you take Wilderness First Aid, you will quickly see that, so far as emergency rescue is concerned, more than a mile from the trailhead is "back-country" and first aid and rescue practices adjust accordingly. So by that standard, the majority of the AT is indeed "wilderness."[/COLOR]Very true Jane. I used the term "technology" in my post, because I'm aware of the lack of cell towers in many places. I was thinking of things like SPOT (http://findmespot.com/en/spotemergency/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=99:spot-rescue-alert-outside-of-cell-phone-range-man-uses-his-spot-satellite-gps-messenger-to-summon-emergency-assistance-for-his-elderly-father-on-a-remote-canadian-highway&catid=55:spot-saves&Itemid=31) . That with the fact that people are hiking on a marked trail, with everything else I mentioned seems to me to negate any true wilderness experience, but hey, we still got the illusion. ;) We all have in our mind when we go out there, "What's my out if I get into trouble", that's only natural, but in today's world the "out" is so much easier. Nothing like it was back in the Hugh Glass days. http://www.badassoftheweek.com/glass.html


And as we go into the future we only further separate ourselves from true wilderness experience.

[Pedaling Fool]

Very true Jane. I used the term "technology" in my post, because I'm aware of the lack of cell towers in many places. I was thinking of things like SPOT (http://findmespot.com/en/spotemergency/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=99:spot-rescue-alert-outside-of-cell-phone-range-man-uses-his-spot-satellite-gps-messenger-to-summon-emergency-assistance-for-his-elderly-father-on-a-remote-canadian-highway&catid=55:spot-saves&Itemid=31) . That with the fact that people are hiking on a marked trail, with everything else I mentioned seems to me to negate any true wilderness experience, but hey, we still got the illusion. ;) We all have in our mind when we go out there, "What's my out if I get into trouble", that's only natural, but in today's world the "out" is so much easier. Nothing like it was back in the Hugh Glass days. http://www.badassoftheweek.com/glass.html


And as we go into the future we only further separate ourselves from true wilderness experience.
BTW, just one last note on getting people out. Once it's known someone needs help we seem to want to part oceans to get those people out. Not like back in the day when they'd just leave you to die, like in the case of Hugh Glass. People know that and it does give them less fear in getting out there.

[gsingjane]

As you probably do, PF, I look at all the news reports of folks who have to be extracted from the AT due to illness or injury. It seems very, very seldom that you hear of someone being taken off with a helicopter. I'm certainly no expert on helicopter rescues and probably someone could be rescued by lowering a basket, but when you think about most of the places you've probably hiked along the AT, most of them don't seem like they'd have a likely spot for a helicopter to land nearby.

When you take WFA, they tell you to figure on an hour per mile in terms of getting in for rescue and out for patient transport.

So I guess my point was, if a person suffered a severe heart attack, say, I'm not at all sure he or she could be rescued in any way from the trail (unless this occurred quite close to a trailhead), in time to survive. Whereas, if a person has a heart attack in the front country, if they are lucky and there is someone around who knows CPR, 911 can be called quickly and will arrive quickly.

When I talk with groups about health and safety concerns, one of the most common beliefs people seem to have is that they could easily and quickly be extracted with a helicopter if there is an accident or medical mishap. But, is that something that really does happen very often?

[rocketsocks]

BTW, just one last note on getting people out. Once it's known someone needs help we seem to want to part oceans to get those people out. Not like back in the day when they'd just leave you to die, like in the case of Hugh Glass. People know that and it does give them less fear in getting out there.Didn't know Jim Bridger was one of the men to leave Glass behind...this saddens me...Bridger was my hero :(

Summarily this story seems to have lent it's content to the major motion picture "Man in the Wilderness" staring Richard Harris...who Played Zack Bass, a trapper that was left for dead by his comrades.

http://www.starz.com/titles/maninthewilderness

[Lemni Skate]

I don't think the AT is really crowded. I've hiked days in the summer when I only saw one or two people. I think shelters are crowded, but I don't care. I don't stay at them. However, I don't think there's much doubt that the PCT has a much more sparse crowd and takes you to civilization much less often. I also think cell phones and the like are much less likely to get reception on the PCT.

I've always thought you do the AT to get your "s**t" together and get your hiking legs, and then after you do that, you're ready for the PCT where you're really out there on your own.

[Pedaling Fool]

As you probably do, PF, I look at all the news reports of folks who have to be extracted from the AT due to illness or injury. It seems very, very seldom that you hear of someone being taken off with a helicopter. I'm certainly no expert on helicopter rescues and probably someone could be rescued by lowering a basket, but when you think about most of the places you've probably hiked along the AT, most of them don't seem like they'd have a likely spot for a helicopter to land nearby.

When you take WFA, they tell you to figure on an hour per mile in terms of getting in for rescue and out for patient transport.

So I guess my point was, if a person suffered a severe heart attack, say, I'm not at all sure he or she could be rescued in any way from the trail (unless this occurred quite close to a trailhead), in time to survive. Whereas, if a person has a heart attack in the front country, if they are lucky and there is someone around who knows CPR, 911 can be called quickly and will arrive quickly.

When I talk with groups about health and safety concerns, one of the most common beliefs people seem to have is that they could easily and quickly be extracted with a helicopter if there is an accident or medical mishap. But, is that something that really does happen very often?
You make some great points gj. I'm not saying that there is no danger in going out in the backcountry, there obviously is.


All I'm saying is that in many respects the wilderness is much less wild in today's world and hikers know this and take every advantage of this and as a result they seem to think that they have special skills in surviving the backcountry. That's just another illusion.

When really there are no real skills most hikers have and their survival in the backcountry is all thanks to so many things they have on their back and that's separate from the technology they have connect to the world, that's only an added plus.

But on the issue of rescue crews getting to you, I can't argue with, in general, even on the AT. All I say is that people will do all they can to get to you and that knowledge on the part of the hikers probably factors in, in the risks they take in the backcountry. And I do believe that the more risks hikers take in looking for wilderness experience only further increases their faulty assumption of their "exceptional skills" in the backcountry.


This guy did a pretty good look at accidents on trails in 2010, pretty interesting. http://www.edarnell.com/2010.html


P.S. I'm speaking about all trails in general, since the OP was asking about the AT experience WRT other trails.

[Pedaling Fool]

Didn't know Jim Bridger was one of the men to leave Glass behind...this saddens me...Bridger was my hero :(

Summarily this story seems to have lent it's content to the major motion picture "Man in the Wilderness" staring Richard Harris...who Played Zack Bass, a trapper that was left for dead by his comrades.

http://www.starz.com/titles/maninthewilderness

I guess we can cut him a break, he was only 19 :D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Glass

"Near the forks of the Grand River in present-day Perkins County (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Perkins_County,_South_Dakota), in August 1823, while scouting ahead of his trading partners for game for the expedition's larder, Glass surprised a grizzly bear (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Grizzly_bear) mother with her two cubs. Before he could fire his rifle, the bear charged, picked him up, and threw him to the ground.

Glass got up, grappled for his knife, and fought back, stabbing the animal repeatedly as the grizzly raked him time and again with her claws.
Glass managed to kill the bear with help from his trapping partners, Fitzgerald and Bridger, but was left badly mauled and unconscious. Henry (who was also with them) became convinced the man would not survive his injuries.

Henry asked for two volunteers to stay with Glass until he died, and then bury him. Bridger (then 19 years old) and Fitzgerald stepped forward, and as the rest of the party moved on, began digging his grave. Later claiming that they were interrupted in the task by an attack by "Arikaree" Indians, the pair grabbed Glass's rifle, knife, and other equipment, and took flight. Bridger and Fitzgerald incorrectly reported to Henry that Glass had died."

[Sunwolf]

Accidents are bad, mmkay. If I have an accident on the trail I hope it's the potty kind and not the breaking my fool neck kind.