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View Full Version : "Stand Your Ground" Laws - Which states have them on the AT?



poopsy
07-17-2013, 07:17
Maybe I shouldn't be worried about this but does any one know which states have "Stand your ground" laws like Florida's? Does the AT go thru any of them?

Are any other hikers worried about these laws, especially in Florida? I don't think I want to go hiking there next winter. Hiker entitlement seems to be a popular subject for these forums but maybe we should be worried. Or is it a racial thing?

Just so you know, I'm not from the US, I get confused about US legal practices and would like to get some perspective.

Pedaling Fool
07-17-2013, 07:46
You're a victim of media frenzy on the Zimmerman case. I live in Florida, stand your ground laws are nothing to fear.

The law didn't even play into the defense of Zimmerman, it was a straight up self defense case.

Tuckahoe
07-17-2013, 07:47
I fully expect this to be a troll thread to be nuked, however, I will answer this as respectfully and straight forward as I can.

Now first and foremost, please understand exactly what "stand your ground laws" are and what it means. I know that they have been in the news lately, especially with cases like the Zimmerman trial. But there is an incredible amount of incorrect information and understanding, especially in the media driving an agenda. Stand your ground laws had nothing to do with the Zimmerman trial which was a straight up affirmative self defense case.

Most every state has either statute (Florida) or through case law (Virginia) established SYG laws. See that? Nearly every state; infact probably the majority of AT states. What such laws establish is that an individual present in any location who has a legal right to be present, has NO duty to retreat from a threat of harm or death when confronted by an assailant. This is a most simple and basic conscept of human rights. That right to defend yourself with force if necessary and not to be a victim. This is such an old English standard of common law, that it has been enshrined in Virginia case law since the 17th century.

Should a woman be tried for murder because she killed the man attempting to rape her, because she did not retreat from that trail shelter?

moytoy
07-17-2013, 07:58
Have you read what the "stand your ground law" is?
No you have nothing to fear unless you are the perpetrator.

moytoy
07-17-2013, 08:03
And to answer your question poopsy. Yes several of the states along the AT have the laws in one form or another. You can google and get all the information you want.

imscotty
07-17-2013, 08:29
Poopsy,

I see that Canada has a number of news stories where citizens are sent to prison for defending their own life and property...

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/01/20/man-faces-jail-after-protecting-home-from-masked-attackers/

I am so sorry to hear that good people in Canada have been prosicuted simply for defending themselves and their families against criminals. As long as you do not attack anyone along the AT, you will not have to worry about the 'Stand Your Ground' laws. I hope you come and enjoy this beautiful trail and its freedoms.

Scott

Wise Old Owl
07-17-2013, 08:35
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/2013_07_ShootFirstStates_0.png

Sly
07-17-2013, 08:36
If Trayvon were packin' there's a good chance he'd be alive today, and his killer would be the one in the ground.

Wise Old Owl
07-17-2013, 08:44
Nice way to start a flame war Sly. I can see you didn't watch the trial... Remember Trayvon sucker punched him knocked him to the ground beat his head on the concrete, first and Zimmerman yelled for help and there was an eye witness.

Please remember the state run media is trying to make this into something its not.

Pedaling Fool
07-17-2013, 08:48
No need to retry the case here. I'll just get the thread closed. Respect our judicial system, it doesn't always get it right, no system can, but it keeps us civil.

Roche
07-17-2013, 08:51
During WWII, Great Britain took a "stand your ground attitude" but France did not. How did that work out?

It's best to learn facts from different sources (preferably conflicting), disregard the spin, emotion and falsehoods, then make your own logical decision. You'll be amazed at your conclusion, unless you think the Vichy government was a good thing.

Wise Old Owl
07-17-2013, 08:55
I had a good laugh yesterday, I was driving past City Hall Philadelphia and they were trying to make a large crowd for one of the news channels out twenty demonstrators so the crew moved them up onto the side steps and used a short angled shot to fill the screen with yelling people....there were more police than demonstrators standing around watching the news crew. Honestly I don't care enough.

rocketsocks
07-17-2013, 08:56
I believe in NJ we have what is called the "Castle Law" which allows for protecting your home or place of business, without reprisal of penalties.

If you are away from home or out in public an are attacked you have an obligation to retreat if you can, crazy ain't it.

Sly
07-17-2013, 08:57
Nice way to start a flame war Sly. I can see you didn't watch the trial... Remember Trayvon sucker punched him knocked him to the ground beat his head on the concrete, first and Zimmerman yelled for help and there was an eye witness.
.

LOL... yeah right. Was that after Zimmerman hung up from 911 and chased him down?

There may not be many here that when walking home and accosted by a stranger would act much differently. I'd certainly tell you to GTFO.

rocketsocks
07-17-2013, 08:58
No need to retry the case here. I'll just get the thread closed. Respect our judicial system, it doesn't always get it right, no system can, but it keeps us civil.
This


During WWII, Great Britain took a "stand your ground attitude" but France did not. How did that work out?

It's best to learn facts from different sources (preferably conflicting), disregard the spin, emotion and falsehoods, then make your own logical decision. You'll be amazed at your conclusion, unless you think the Vichy government was a good thing.

and This

rocketsocks
07-17-2013, 08:59
No need to retry the case here. I'll just get the thread closed. Respect our judicial system, it doesn't always get it right, no system can, but it keeps us civil.
But mostly this

Wise Old Owl
07-17-2013, 09:03
LOL... yeah right. Was that after Zimmerman hung up from 911 and chased him down?


there isn't a law against following someone....Zimmerman lost him and returned to the car and was then confronted. Seriously Sly you are telling me if someone punched you broke your nose and knocked you to the ground you aren't going to defend yourself?

Tuckahoe
07-17-2013, 09:06
LOL... yeah right. Was that after Zimmerman hung up from 911 and chased him down?

Sly, dude, you are a moderator and should be setting the example. There is actually an attempt here to have a civil discussion and this does not help.

WOO -- I figured that map would leave out Virginia. Our prinicple of SYG and castle doctrine is the result of a long history of case law, and there is little desire to enact through legislation what could end up being a weaker standard.

Sly
07-17-2013, 09:06
Sly, dude, you are a moderator and should be setting the example. There is actually an attempt here to have a civil discussion and this does not help.



As am I. I can't help it if you don't agree.

If this thread violates the no politics rule it should be deleted.

Sly
07-17-2013, 09:09
there isn't a law against following someone....Zimmerman lost him and returned to the car and was then confronted. Seriously Sly you are telling me if someone punched you broke your nose and knocked you to the ground you aren't going to defend yourself?

No, I'm saying if Trayvon was carrying a gun he'd still be alive.

I wouldn't be out there running around getting my jollies like Zimmerman either.

coach lou
07-17-2013, 09:11
Why are we going here!?????????

Wise Old Owl
07-17-2013, 09:13
Dunno... I already answered the question.

DeerPath
07-17-2013, 09:13
I fully expect this to be a troll thread to be nuked, however, I will answer this as respectfully and straight forward as I can.

Now first and foremost, please understand exactly what "stand your ground laws" are and what it means. I know that they have been in the news lately, especially with cases like the Zimmerman trial. But there is an incredible amount of incorrect information and understanding, especially in the media driving an agenda. Stand your ground laws had nothing to do with the Zimmerman trial which was a straight up affirmative self defense case.

Most every state has either statute (Florida) or through case law (Virginia) established SYG laws. See that? Nearly every state; infact probably the majority of AT states. What such laws establish is that an individual present in any location who has a legal right to be present, has NO duty to retreat from a threat of harm or death when confronted by an assailant. This is a most simple and basic conscept of human rights. That right to defend yourself with force if necessary and not to be a victim. This is such an old English standard of common law, that it has been enshrined in Virginia case law since the 17th century.

Should a woman be tried for murder because she killed the man attempting to rape her, because she did not retreat from that trail shelter?

DITTO....... Very well said. Any State or Country that allows you to defend yourself from a perpetrator is the same as "stand your ground".
Happy Trails

atmilkman
07-17-2013, 09:14
If Travon was alive today here's what he'd have to say about the SYG law. https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRi_IdAjMWPHsorEre0kvjOD-lqNiIinogxvXYFNMgAlHI3FvYN (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=8oBmLHDdadCMoM&tbnid=WZSCiznMaAuL2M:&ved=&url=http%3A%2F%2Fweaselzippers.us%2F2013%2F06%2F26 %2Fprosecutions-star-witness-says-trayvon-martin-called-zimmerman-a-creepy-ass-cracker%2F&ei=-ZXmUc62BfSr4AOf6YCgBg&bvm=bv.49405654,d.dmg&psig=AFQjCNFloY5Ms4OX9pcf795Es1bRL83V4A&ust=1374152569369365)

coach lou
07-17-2013, 09:17
WOO last week went to NH. Brought some ronis and my sauce. Extra pot to cook it, small extra canister to boil ronis and heat sauce. As I was climbing up to Lonesome Lake, I realised I left the sauce in the cooler , in my car, at the hostel...................I was upset!











Please change the subject!

Sly
07-17-2013, 09:19
What such laws establish is that an individual present in any location who has a legal right to be present, has NO duty to retreat from a threat of harm or death when confronted by an assailant.

That's what I'm trying to say.

Tuckahoe
07-17-2013, 09:20
I guess I may be spitting into the wind here, but can we not get in a pissing match over the Zimmerman trial? This is certainly a legitimate discussion as it relates to the OP and nothing wrong with the topic as it relates to helping hikers undertanding of the laws that might affect them. BUT PLEASE lets just not get into the BS!

Pedaling Fool
07-17-2013, 09:22
Might as well close this thread, it's a goner. FWIW, I'd love to talk about self defense and the law, but it'd be useless, because people get emotionally undone here.
I use to teach it in my other life, because use of deadly force in law enforcement is in many cases a self defense issue. And it can get complicated and it's a subject that garners much interest with the students, because of the amount of responsibility and burden placed on armed sentries.


But this discussion is getting so damn dumb...

rocketsocks
07-17-2013, 09:22
I guess I may be spitting into the wind here, but can we not get in a pissing match over the Zimmerman trial? This is certainly a legitimate discussion as it relates to the OP and nothing wrong with the topic as it relates to helping hikers undertanding of the laws that might affect them. BUT PLEASE lets just not get into the BS!Agree, good topic...lets stick with this one.

Wise Old Owl
07-17-2013, 09:27
It so tough to have a civil discussion... now what does this have to do with backpacking?

Sly
07-17-2013, 09:29
Agree, good topic...lets stick with this one.

I didn't start the thread and I wasn't the first to bring up Zimmerman, but since it was brought up I responded.

Roche
07-17-2013, 09:30
LOL... yeah right. Was that after Zimmerman hung up from 911 and chased him down?

There may not be many here that when walking home and accosted by a stranger would act much differently. I'd certainly tell you to GTFO.

Chased

Please add "embellished" to spin, emotion and falsehoods. Take any issue, from the designated hitter rule to passing bonds for new fill in the blank.

One looses credibility (and the debate) with these tactics. We can agee that we disagree, but can we first agree on the facts, avoiding embellishments, spin, emotion and falsehoods?

Take 9-11; only one flight stood their ground, which prevented additional deaths.

rocketsocks
07-17-2013, 09:32
It so tough to have a civil discussion... now what does this have to do with backpacking?Not a thing....unless your attacked in a state that your map shows, and your backpack is not up against a wall, then there is some room for useful discussion.

rocketsocks
07-17-2013, 09:33
I didn't start the thread and I wasn't the first to bring up Zimmerman, but since it was brought up I responded.oh I fully understand...I can read too :)

Sly
07-17-2013, 09:34
Chased

Please add "embellished" to spin, emotion and falsehoods. Take any issue, from the designated hitter rule to passing bonds for new fill in the blank.

One looses credibility (and the debate) with these tactics. We can agee that we disagree, but can we first agree on the facts, avoiding embellishments, spin, emotion and falsehoods?

Take 9-11; only one flight stood their ground, which prevented additional deaths.

Speaking of embellishment...

Raw: 911 call Zimmerman made to Sanford police (Explicit) (http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/raw-911-call-zimmerman-made-to-sanford-police/vGZq9/)

perdidochas
07-17-2013, 09:35
Maybe I shouldn't be worried about this but does any one know which states have "Stand your ground" laws like Florida's? Does the AT go thru any of them?

Are any other hikers worried about these laws, especially in Florida? I don't think I want to go hiking there next winter. Hiker entitlement seems to be a popular subject for these forums but maybe we should be worried. Or is it a racial thing?

Just so you know, I'm not from the US, I get confused about US legal practices and would like to get some perspective.

"Stand your ground" is not a big deal. Don't get in fights or threaten anybody. I've lived in FL for almost ten years now, and it has never been an issue. Also, the Zimmerman case was not a "stand your ground" issue, but a simple self defense issue, as has been law since the Magna Carta.

perdidochas
07-17-2013, 09:37
If Trayvon were packin' there's a good chance he'd be alive today, and his killer would be the one in the ground.

If Trayvon kept his hands to himself, as we teach all kids, he would be alive today. Trayvon would be in prison for that. Why? He couldn't get a CCW permit until age 21, so he could not be legally packing.

Sarcasm the elf
07-17-2013, 09:40
Maybe I shouldn't be worried about this but does any one know which states have "Stand your ground" laws like Florida's? Does the AT go thru any of them?

Are any other hikers worried about these laws, especially in Florida? I don't think I want to go hiking there next winter. Hiker entitlement seems to be a popular subject for these forums but maybe we should be worried. Or is it a racial thing?

Just so you know, I'm not from the US, I get confused about US legal practices and would like to get some perspective.

By and large the USA is a safe place, and the A.T. is one if the safest places in the entire country.

Always remember that our media is for profit and has no incentive to portray the world in an accurate way. If they came on the air every day to report that 99.99% of people were safe and sound, then it would be boring and nobody would watch. They stay in business by constantly bombarding us with the 0.01% of life that is miserable and tragic.

Wise Old Owl
07-17-2013, 09:41
Speaking of embellishment...

Raw: 911 call Zimmerman made to Sanford police (Explicit) (http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/raw-911-call-zimmerman-made-to-sanford-police/vGZq9/)




What is your point Sly?

Sly
07-17-2013, 09:45
What is your point Sly?

The point is Zimmerman couldn't help himself but follow (chase) Martin even though he called the cops and they were coming. (he was told not to follow him!) If he let the cops do their job, the kid would still be alive. Lets hope it's not a relative of yours the next time.

Wise Old Owl
07-17-2013, 09:53
From your post of Zimmerman 911 call, leaving the car he is big heavy and out of shape and walking, attempting to keep Trey whereabouts in sight... again there is no law for following.

Here is something else... because it wasn't allowed to be discussed at the trail - Treyvon was casing the neighborhood for a break-in. He had done it before and was expelled from school for having stolen jewelry, as a minor it was withheld.

Feral Bill
07-17-2013, 09:54
As long as we are having this discussion: Florida's definition of self defense states, in essence, that if you start a fight, and it goes badly, causing you to fear for your life, you can kill your victim with impunity. I do not approve.

Rasty
07-17-2013, 09:59
This thread is why I avoid news shows and come to Whiteblaze. Now y'all sound like the idiot talking heads on xyz news show.

Wise Old Owl
07-17-2013, 10:04
I hope not.

dmax
07-17-2013, 10:05
Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6...

Roche
07-17-2013, 10:06
The point is Zimmerman couldn't help himself but follow (chase) Martin even though he called the cops and they were coming. (he was told not to follow him!) If he let the cops do their job, the kid would still be alive. Lets hope it's not a relative of yours the next time.
You certainly are not implying the outcome would have been the same if TM just kept on walking and ignored GZ? Back in the day I never attacked anyone when they followed/chased/shooed me away from their neighborhood. But then again, I never attacked anyone (except for my brothers, who stood their ground, until mom or dad stepped in).

Roche
07-17-2013, 10:10
This thread is why I avoid news shows and come to Whiteblaze. Now y'all sound like the idiot talking heads on xyz news show.
This is a civil debate - like TV, just change the channel if we're annoying you (yes, I'm standing my ground).

max patch
07-17-2013, 10:18
This thread is why I avoid news shows and come to Whiteblaze. Now y'all sound like the idiot talking heads on xyz news show.

I loved how on the HBO show The Newsroom they had an episode showing how the Nancy Grace nightly news show was everything a news show shouldn't be.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/g9vt_xYhWfA/mqdefault.jpg

Mags
07-17-2013, 10:20
THis thread rapidly left AT-related discussion. Surprise! Surprise! :)

Time to shut it down before it gets even uglier...