View Full Version : Thru-hiker interview with the Sports Dietitian for the New Orleans Saints
A few weeks ago, I asked you guys if you had any questions you'd like me to ask Tavis Piattoly, Sports Dietitian and Nutrition Consultant for the New Orleans Saints, New Orleans Hornets, and the Tulane University Athletic Department. I wanted to let you know, I posted part one of that interview. http://ryangrayson.blogspot.com/2013/07/nutrition-for-thru-hikers-interview.html
I began researching for a series of blog posts about food and nutrition for thru-hikers, but it quickly became clear that I needed some expert advice.
As you all probably know, the Internet is full of sports nutrition advice, much of which is driven by fads and not entirely evidence-based, but even the good advice doesn't usually take into account the limitations that we face on the trail. I didn't want to contribute to that bad advice online, so I reached out to several dietitians. I was excited that someone with a resume like Tavis's agreed to let me interview him.
In the first part, we go over some basics, like his recommended ratios of carbs/protein/fat. In the next two posts we talk about sample meal plans, binge eating, and foods that naturally reduce inflammation.
Thank you all for your questions! It made the interview considerably better. You had many questions, I hadn't thought of. I'll let you know when I have part 2 ready to post.
Read the interview carefully. In a nutshell - Great minds think alike! He's hired!
Thanks for following up on this Ryan. Really appreciated it. You did a great article and interview Ryan. Tavis Piattoly, did a wonderful job answering the questions too.
Worth starting a new thread with this.
Just Bill
07-24-2013, 22:36
nice article indeed- When Malto gets a chance he'll have to explain this one better to me- Also related to this question, Malto from WhiteBlaze.net asks, “Will eating fats while hiking increase your total caloric contribution from fat, or will it reduce the calories that your body burns from fat, keeping it constant?”
Great question. If you're consuming a high fat diet, the body will utilize fat as an energy source and spare glycogen. If you can get to the point where you tap into your fat stores, then you will be a fat burning machine. Keep in mind we only have about 2000 calories from carbohydrate available to use during activity until we have to replace it. We have over 100,000 calories from fat available for use but we rarely tap into those stores because we're always consuming refined carbohydrates which prevents us from burning fat as fuel.
Looking forward to the second part. Great job on the blog.
JB, you're on a roll Must have eaten your Wheaties today or had a few of those Cucumber Hibiscus Hemp Smoothie beers
Just Bill
07-24-2013, 23:50
Goose Island Cucumber
Fog Horn
07-25-2013, 08:08
Great job on this! Cannot wait to see the second half!
By chance, did anyone ask any nutrition questions for post thru hike? I think one of the biggest concerns I have about the trail is coming off of it and continuing to eat the same meals/ snacks. Besides simply "dropping calories" it would be nice to see some input around a recovery week or two.
HikerMom58
07-25-2013, 08:17
Great job on this! Cannot wait to see the second half!
By chance, did anyone ask any nutrition questions for post thru hike? I think one of the biggest concerns I have about the trail is coming off of it and continuing to eat the same meals/ snacks. Besides simply "dropping calories" it would be nice to see some input around a recovery week or two.
+1. Great job!! :)
Pedaling Fool
07-25-2013, 08:40
I think everyone misses the point about what's really special about long-distance hiking, at least the lesson I took away. And that is to say, forget about the nutritonal balance. Hiking forces the body to become super efficient. Hikers, more than any other sport, are fat-burning machines. Because they are NOT getting the perfect proportion of dietary needs. Watch any sporting event and those athletes are constantly being fueled and they have to because they are trying to out-perform the next guy and in many cases they don't have a healthy fat storage to draw from. LD hiking is probably as close as we can get to what the hunter/gatherer lifestyle was like, WRT starving while pushing ourselves.
I see one of the topics is "binge eating", which I guess is what we do in town. But again, to me that's another special part of LD hiking. It's the modern day feast/famine cycle.
This is all interesting, but in the end I don't want perfectly proportioned meals and I do want to be calorie starved.
If you're eating 5,000 calories or more on a hike then you're missing out on a very special experience, IMHO.
HikerMom58
07-25-2013, 08:45
https://sphotos-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/p480x480/1069888_522998671087617_439353769_n.jpg
PF... this could be a fun/interesting experience on the AT too, if it were true. :D
Probably the biggest follow up question I would have regards protein. That is a boatload of protein. .8 g per lb puts me at 150g of protein per day. I'm not sure how realistic it is to eat that much protein. Also, in the case of operating in a calorie deficit wouldn't the protein be used for fuel, ie the body places a higher priority on fueling the machine vs. maintaining unused muscle groups?
As far as his answer to my question regarding fat. I believe his answer indicates that your body uses either fat source interchangeably. His 2000 calorie estimate for glycogen lines up well with the fact that many people hit the wall at about mile 18-20. I had a major learning this week on the trail between James River and Waynesboro. I hiked this with my 16 year old son in three days for a average of about 25 miles per day. My son was not able to do the same 100 calorie per mile intake as I have used lately and hike continuous. He hit the wall on the climb up to Chimney rocks, a 3000' climb. Because of the type of hikes that I do I suspect I have trained my body to efficiently access my fat stores for energy. I have read that this is possible but I saw it first hand this week. My son is in excellent shape, 6'1"-172 lbs. He plays football and basketball in HS but this was only his second backpacking trip. The main difference between us was that I had trained to do very high mile days and he had not. It really shows that so one can't just go from the couch to hiking high mile days regardless of doing all the things such as early start, great overall fitness level, lightweight pack etc. it was eye opening for me.
Really good article. I was slightly suprised that 5 to 6 ounces of protein was recommended for someone in my weight range. I probably eat better on the trail then I do normally due to less protein, fat and way less sugar. I tend to eat veggies with whole grains or pasta a little meat, chicken stock powder and olive oil. Nido/Carnation/Fruit shakes for breakfast.
Probably the biggest follow up question I would have regards protein. That is a boatload of protein. .8 g per lb puts me at 150g of protein per day. I'm not sure how realistic it is to eat that much protein. Also, in the case of operating in a calorie deficit wouldn't the protein be used for fuel, ie the body places a higher priority on fueling the machine vs. maintaining unused muscle groups?
As far as his answer to my question regarding fat. I believe his answer indicates that your body uses either fat source interchangeably. His 2000 calorie estimate for glycogen lines up well with the fact that many people hit the wall at about mile 18-20. I had a major learning this week on the trail between James River and Waynesboro. I hiked this with my 16 year old son in three days for a average of about 25 miles per day. My son was not able to do the same 100 calorie per mile intake as I have used lately and hike continuous. He hit the wall on the climb up to Chimney rocks, a 3000' climb. Because of the type of hikes that I do I suspect I have trained my body to efficiently access my fat stores for energy. I have read that this is possible but I saw it first hand this week. My son is in excellent shape, 6'1"-172 lbs. He plays football and basketball in HS but this was only his second backpacking trip. The main difference between us was that I had trained to do very high mile days and he had not. It really shows that so one can't just go from the couch to hiking high mile days regardless of doing all the things such as early start, great overall fitness level, lightweight pack etc. it was eye opening for me.
It is a lot considering beef is only about 25% protein, nuts around 30% and dairy even lower.
Just Bill
07-25-2013, 10:43
Probably the biggest follow up question I would have regards protein. That is a boatload of protein. .8 g per lb puts me at 150g of protein per day. I'm not sure how realistic it is to eat that much protein. Also, in the case of operating in a calorie deficit wouldn't the protein be used for fuel, ie the body places a higher priority on fueling the machine vs. maintaining unused muscle groups?
As far as his answer to my question regarding fat. I believe his answer indicates that your body uses either fat source interchangeably. His 2000 calorie estimate for glycogen lines up well with the fact that many people hit the wall at about mile 18-20. I had a major learning this week on the trail between James River and Waynesboro. I hiked this with my 16 year old son in three days for a average of about 25 miles per day. My son was not able to do the same 100 calorie per mile intake as I have used lately and hike continuous. He hit the wall on the climb up to Chimney rocks, a 3000' climb. Because of the type of hikes that I do I suspect I have trained my body to efficiently access my fat stores for energy. I have read that this is possible but I saw it first hand this week. My son is in excellent shape, 6'1"-172 lbs. He plays football and basketball in HS but this was only his second backpacking trip. The main difference between us was that I had trained to do very high mile days and he had not. It really shows that so one can't just go from the couch to hiking high mile days regardless of doing all the things such as early start, great overall fitness level, lightweight pack etc. it was eye opening for me.
Protein- when you and I were talking, you mentioned not eating much protein except for later in the day. I have always eaten good slab jerky and since adding the Chia seeds to my daytime drinks I do feel better. I thought the same as you though, calories are calories when you're at a deficit. And protein is not a "fuel efficient" calorie. Are we not in as much of a starvation mode as we think though? If our bodies do adapt does his statement on protein make more sense? Carbs and fats (stored or eaten) go first and our body adapts and still uses protein to build? Perhaps we need that much protein not for unused muscle, but for the damage done to used muscles. Legs and core muscles by volume have to be the bulk of our muscle system, really the only muscle not used is triceps and forearms. Shoulders and arms are still pulling, not at maximum, but doing something all day... wouldn't it take more energy to strip some muscle to fix others. Easier to grab a part off the shelf than have to strip it from the junkyard theory? 150g protein x 4= 600 cal. Only 12% of a 5000 cal. diet doesn't seem horrible from a calorie standpoint. Am I mixed up on this? Carbs/Fat- So can you simply dump fat in the tank at some point, perhaps why you see some elites like Skurka, Justin Lichter (Trauma) shoveling garbage in? I thought that was only the privilege of youth, but we don't have a lot of 30's/40's hikers to compare. Snickers is sugars, fat, and a bit of protien- but seems to do wonders for younger folks, it's effects seem to fade with age. Seems like everyone, from Jurek to Jardine adapts a good healthy diet sometime in their thirties. That said- even if we could burn straight fat- you still need a steady carb drip to go with it right? Like a wick in a candle was the analogy I once heard. One reason perhaps why your Malto Mix has worked so well for you? Scott Jurek gets into how your body works after you hit the glycogen wall, and has some tips on how to train your body to adapt. I've only geeked out on this recently so I didn't follow all he had to say but I think I recall him saying that you often needed a full night to rebuild that 2000 calorie tank? Don't carbs in your belly just sit until you convert them to glycogen overnight? Or does a carb like malto go right from belly to furnace? That's the part I struggle with- what are you actually burning during the day and if it's stored calories, how to replenish them during rest...
Just Bill
07-25-2013, 11:00
Protein Sources- I get my jerky from a small meat market in the middle of nowhere Wisconsin. They make slab jerky, 2 foot x 3 foot x 1" thick high quality beef. It is like eating a medium rare steak. Although he has no nutritional information, he told me its about a 3 or 4 to 1 fresh beef to dried beef ratio. When you pick it up fresh, it is about 3 to one, over time it will continue to dry as he Smoke cures it to perfection, not to brittleness. (it is unreal) Lean beef- 10g of protein per ounce. 12 ounces fresh beef would be 120g of protein, dries to 4 ounces of quality beef jerky. About what I bring per day. I'm 200lb so I need about 160g. 120g from jerky, 15-20g from Chia, rest from nuts, seeds, and other sources in my menu. The .8g per pound doesn't seem that high to me, or hard to hit. Most nuts we eat have around 7g per ounce, if you were just eating that it would be tough without a protein bomb like jerky, eggs, cheese. You can also add dried soy beans(edamame) to your trail mix and eat them like peanuts. Trader Joes and Whole foods sells them as snacks.
normally as part of my recovery I quickly eat or drink 500 calories in carbs as soon as I stop for the day. This is to build up the glycogen level or the next day. But even more important is to not get anywhere near hitting the wall. I believe this can be achieved by providing the maximum amount of carbs during the day to max out on your bodies ability to convert carbs to energy. Since backpacking is not overly intense compared with an ultra marathon, I believe with a little discipline you can avoid the wall completely. It is much easier to avoid the wall than to recover from it.
Probably the biggest follow up question I would have regards protein. That is a boatload of protein.
I agree Malto. Doing the math, this could mean I need up to 300 grams of protein per day on a 6,000 calorie diet, or about 150g using the 0.8/lb. estimate. I asked him to go into that more. During the interview, he did go on to say, "this could be a lot higher than the g/kg previously recommended. This is to make sure you preserve muscle tissue during extended hikes. My concern would be if you're not consuming enough calories and utilizing muscle tissue for energy, the extra protein could help spare muscle loss and tap into some fat stores unless carbohydrate was prevalent throughout the day."
Although, 300g is really difficult to eat in a day. I'll post what I find out.
Sorry it has taken me so long to post part two. I got a new job this week and moved to a new state, so I haven't had as much free time to get it posted. I'll have it up this week though.
I hope to get Tavis to reply to your comments soon. For now, I wanted to let you know I finally got part two posted: http://ryangrayson.blogspot.com/2013/08/nutrition-for-thru-hikers-part-2.html
Thanks for all the great feedback!
rocketsocks
08-07-2013, 19:23
Hey this is really great...Thanks Ryan, and thank you Tavis.
Well done! BIG Thank You.
max patch
08-07-2013, 19:37
Interesting stuff. Thanks to both of you.
I look forward to the third and final article. These are helping a lot, many thanks. ~Ryan (aka: Symba)
Thanks for all your positive feedback and follow up discussions! I've learned a ton, and I've learned a lot thanks to you helping me ask the right questions. I'm going to post some more food articles, so hope to get all of your additional questions on here addressed. The third article is up: http://ryangrayson.blogspot.com/2013/08/nutrition-for-thru-hikers-part-3.html
Thanks again! I have an interview about first aid kits with an instructor at NOLs. Looking forward to that one as well.