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Just Bill
07-29-2013, 21:28
This isn’t a vote, it’s an opinion poll. Hold your impulse and consider your response. Does a hiker on an announced speed hike waive their right to privacy?

On one hand; what I thought was my very clear position (I start this poll because I am not so sure). Ignore that this right could or should be granted to an inexperienced nobody pretender like me, let’s talk specifically about a respected member of the backpacking, fastpacking, and running community. In short, someone that deserves and has earned our respect- regardless of our feelings on a Speed Hike. Matt Kirk announced his hike, quite quietly and humbly, stopped by this site, not to pass the word, but to comment on the fact that a few members of this site made his hike public here. Since then he has intentionally chosen not to publish the actual date of his hike or his location. Whether for safety, out of humility, or simple personal preference his request was that his location not be known to the public. We should respect that choice?
On the other hand, a decent argument has been indirectly made by Sly and Lone Wolf to the contrary. To a certain extent it is one that I agree with. When making the dreaded announcement, you have in essence made your hike public. You have also chosen to pursue a record attempt which (rightfully so) will have to face some scrutiny and skepticism. By undertaking such a hike you are no longer a simple hiker, but a public figure in some sense. You could hike the hike and post the proof afterwards. Not that it would be any fun for anyone involved, but you could. So, in making his intentions known, did he waive all rights and preferences about how it would be documented/reported?
Keep in mind, this is basically just in our little group of knuckleheads here on this site. Matt posted simple day by day videos, everything else is generated here, not by Matt or someone on his behalf. As a former lurker though, I can tell you that folks are reading. Some of those folks are future record breakers. One of the exiting things to me is that we are participating in an evolution in (a part) of our sport. Like the cell phone, speed hikes are here to stay; like it or not. Just as Scott Williamson has shaped the sport; choices, ethics, rules, and the definition of such hikes are being formed by folks like JPD, Matt, & Anish. The community of fans and detractors (that’s us) is also shaping the future (the exciting part). So think about it a bit…

hikerboy57
07-29-2013, 21:33
still, i wont expect to see it featured on espn anytime soon.
i feel he made the hike public when he publicly announced his attempt.to me he assumes his effort is gonna be looked at closely, otherwise there is no legitimacy, and why announce it in the first place. he may very well be seeking that validation.(unless hes got a spot, on time delay, tracking and verifying his progress)
i assume he wants people to know.

atmilkman
07-29-2013, 21:42
When making the dreaded announcement, you have in essence made your hike public.


I'll agree with you on this.

Lone Wolf
07-29-2013, 21:49
Ward Leonard never announced a thing. he did it NOBO in leather boots and 30lbs. on his back. SOBO is a weenie way.

Just Bill
07-29-2013, 21:57
As mentioned, I am waffling a bit on my position. The tipping point is just respect for a fellow hiker, even though Matt may be more than that at this point. LW- given the tales of Ward's personality, I would find it highly likely, if the internet and sites like this were available we would all know a lot about Mr. Leonard. I don't condone or respect the negative comments- but you have to admit that he had a rep for sharing his opinion and thoughts with anybody he could. I don't expect an honest answer, but I really doubt Ward wouldn't have announced if he was starting his hike today. (Don't tell, but I secretly agree with you on the NOBO vs. SOBO deal- but we'll save that debate if and when Matt finishes)

HikerMom58
07-29-2013, 22:00
I think it depends on his true motivation. Is he truly doing it for himself only, with little or no interest in publicity before, during or after his hike??
If this is the case, for him, I think his wishes should be respected. He may be happiest without the public recognition except in it's most simplistic form. I'm sure he would like/need it to be validated, but that's it.

hikerboy57
07-29-2013, 22:03
if he was doing it for himself he wouldnt have announced it

Lone Wolf
07-29-2013, 22:04
As mentioned, I am waffling a bit on my position. The tipping point is just respect for a fellow hiker, even though Matt may be more than that at this point. LW- given the tales of Ward's personality, I would find it highly likely, if the internet and sites like this were available we would all know a lot about Mr. Leonard. I don't condone or respect the negative comments- but you have to admit that he had a rep for sharing his opinion and thoughts with anybody he could. I don't expect an honest answer, but I really doubt Ward wouldn't have announced if he was starting his hike today. (Don't tell, but I secretly agree with you on the NOBO vs. SOBO deal- but we'll save that debate if and when Matt finishes)
Ward would not have announced his hike because he didn't know he was doing a record hike. it just happened.

Alligator
07-29-2013, 22:05
There are not judges at every blaze. If a person has chosen to mask their hiking location out of a desire for safety other people ought to recognize that, whether they are a record seeker or a recreational hiker. If they are looking for a record the burden of proof will be on the record seeker. The whole trail cannot be covered to insure 100% compliance. If the journey is not well supported, it'll be the record seeker's loss. Was the current unsupported record holder followed by paparazzi?

Canis lupus was out of the bag on this one though.

Just Bill
07-29-2013, 22:10
There are some (obviously unconfirmed) but known examples of folks who have broken records and (publicly) kept silent. I don't think you can do a hike like this with bad motives, I quite honestly believe the trail wouldn't let you. That said, even Saint Ward could not resist telling- and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Lone Wolf
07-29-2013, 22:13
even Saint Ward could not resist telling- and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

when and where did Ward make any kind of announcement? have you met him? do you know him?

Just Bill
07-29-2013, 22:18
Ward would not have announced his hike because he didn't know he was doing a record hike. it just happened.
Well said, and point taken. No rush, as we may all be getting worked up over nothing, but I'd sincerely like to hear his thoughts either way. His happy accident has certainly evolved over the years...he won't likely be matched LW. Not sure if it was urban legend or a verified quote but basically it said that Ward knew one of his records would fall, but no single person would be able to beat all of his records. On that account- nobody ever will.

Alligator
07-29-2013, 22:22
Since you are the instigator for this thread Lone Wolf, why post the guy's real time location when he had clearly time delayed his video log? Ward's record, which you give credence to, wasn't offered in real time apparently.

mcstick
07-29-2013, 22:25
Ward Leonard never announced a thing. he did it NOBO in leather boots and 30lbs. on his back. SOBO is a weenie way.
ahhh. To be entitled to the smugness of the good ok days.

Just Bill
07-29-2013, 22:33
when and where did Ward make any kind of announcement? have you met him? do you know him?
I didn't say he announced- I said he told. You cleared up that the record wasn't intended, but he did share his time otherwise we wouldn't know about it. The word Saint was perhaps unjust, but directed playfully in your direction, and not spitefully in Ward's. I (assume) for him it was a personal best, but not something he kept to himself. If I did it I'd tell everyone I met and then some- nothing shameful in telling.

mcstick
07-29-2013, 22:33
[QUOTE=mcstick;1508639]ahhh. To be entitled to the smugness of the good ok days.[/QUOT

The good ole days I should say.

Just Bill
07-29-2013, 22:47
[QUOTE=mcstick;1508639]ahhh. To be entitled to the smugness of the good ok days.[/QUOT

The good ole days I should say. I think you had it right the first time:D

Hill Ape
07-30-2013, 03:23
out of curiousity, where are these records kept? i've always been under the impression that the ATC doesn't track any sort of record, be it speed, youngest, ect. scrutiny, legitimacy, burden of proof, are these really the descriptions we want to use? posting someones start date is one thing, beyond that, it is a security risk that isn't ours to decide on the current location of anyone. a sport?! really?

fiddlehead
07-30-2013, 03:42
Trying to make rules were there are too many already.
can he get in a car?
can someone hand him food?
can he stay in a hotel?
now, it's: Can people in the know discuss his whereabouts.

If the dude is purposefully keeping his updates a few days behind his present whereabouts, we should respect that.

I don't think it was ever a problem until "Nature Boy" was attacked. Sort of like the tylenol poisonings from decades ago.

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 07:26
Since you are the instigator for this thread Lone Wolf, why post the guy's real time location when he had clearly time delayed his video log? Ward's record, which you give credence to, wasn't offered in real time apparently.

i've seen none of this guy's videos, forum posts, etc. saying he didn't want his location known

Hill Ape
07-30-2013, 07:29
consent is not the absence of no, it is the presence of yes

Sly
07-30-2013, 08:31
i've seen none of this guy's videos, forum posts, etc. saying he didn't want his location known

I haven't either, maybe Just Bill can pull the quote from his blog. Since attempting the record was a public announcement via his blog, unless told so directly, it's unrealistic to expect the public not to mention his name if they do see him along the trail.


I will hop on an airplane back across the country to Bangor, ME (so much for the carbon neutral adventuring) and make my way up to Baxter State Park to begin a sub-60 day self-supported southbound thru-hike attempt of the Appalachian Trail. Many thanks to madA for posting video updates tosub60.wikispaces.com (http://sub60.wikispaces.com/) starting sometime later in June.

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 08:32
i'm really baffled by all the secrecy

Sly
07-30-2013, 08:47
i'm really baffled by all the secrecy

I never understood it. If some perv is out to do harm, it's not likely they're chasing down a particular person on the trail, they can cause harm at any time.

jersey joe
07-30-2013, 08:54
Most people on this site have been respectful of the fact that Matt was delaying his posts to mask his exact location.
I'm not sure why someone who knows about this intentional delay would go out of their way to post someone's exact location.
Seems unneccesary and incendiary. I recall on Jen's hike someone ran into her and delayed saying where they saw her a couple days out of respect.

All that being said, I don't believe it is really all that difficult to extrapolate a speed hikers actual location based on their delayed post. So, it's not a very big deal really.

jersey joe
07-30-2013, 08:55
i'm really baffled by all the secrecy

The Nature Boy incident was a game changer.

Ground Control
07-30-2013, 09:05
To piggyback Sly's quote from Matt Kirk's blog, it is worth mentioning that Matt's wife's blog also has specific information that (seems to) give away the big secret:

http://hophornbeam.blogspot.com/2013_06_01_archive.html
(from Saturday, June 15th)

Our main deadline was Sacramento, CA by Saturday night so Matt could catch his flight....Matt caught his flight, bound for the northeastern Maine and his third AT thru-hike (this time fast (http://sub60.wikispaces.com/)). I know he was anticipating his adventure, whereas for me, the daunting logistics were now behind me...

Initially, this led me to believe that the thru-hike specifics were not as secretive as I had suspected. Now that we know MK's general location, it seems that Matt's wife was probably referring to the previous Saturday (June 8th) for flying from Sacramento to Maine. Was this another attempt to delay or conceal his true starting point and location? I have not read her blog closely enough to tell.




(FWIW, Lilly's blog has some very interesting content and pictures.)

Pedaling Fool
07-30-2013, 09:07
I would feel obligated for live updates if I were to attempt something of this. However, I don't fault anyone who doesn't. I fully appreciate the difficulty in the attempt, but really means nothing with respect to records. For there to be records there must be very well defined criteria and direction is one of those as is clearing up exactly what unsupported is. I don't want to start a debate about the meaning here on this thread, it really isn't important. What's important is that these standards are defined officially and everyone that attempts sticks to set criteria.

Other than that, it's just something neat to watch.

Sly
07-30-2013, 09:14
The Nature Boy incident was a game changer.

I'm not aware of all the details in the "Nature Boy incident" but I would think, if anything, the perps were real life, or on trail/town acquaintances, not people preying on him from the internet.

Sly
07-30-2013, 09:19
I recall on Jen's hike someone ran into her and delayed saying where they saw her a couple days out of respect.


Yet now that she holds the record, she announces where she'll be at any given time, and people pass it on like it's the place to be. :rolleyes:

Pedaling Fool
07-30-2013, 09:20
I would feel obligated for live updates if I were to attempt something of this. However, I don't fault anyone who doesn't. I fully appreciate the difficulty in the attempt, but really means nothing with respect to records. For there to be records there must be very well defined criteria and direction is one of those as is clearing up exactly what unsupported is. I don't want to start a debate about the meaning here on this thread, it really isn't important. What's important is that these standards are defined officially and everyone that attempts sticks to set criteria.

Other than that, it's just something neat to watch.BTW, I answered the poll by checking off: Absolutely not- keep your mouth shut!

However, that's because this isn't a defined event, if it were, damn straight the answer would be: "Absolutely- we deserve to know where he is!"

It can be no other way when a record is on the line. But there are no records here, only "records".

jersey joe
07-30-2013, 09:32
I'm not aware of all the details in the "Nature Boy incident" but I would think, if anything, the perps were real life, or on trail/town acquaintances, not people preying on him from the internet.
There is logic in this...i guess people are being extra cautious on the trail where they are alone and vulnerable.

Another important factor to consider that i've mentioned before, besides safety, is the fact that by giving an exact location, there is a much higher chance of well intentioned followers to trying to meet a speed hiker at road crossings to bestow trail magic on them, offer a ride, etc. This would go against the spirit of an unsupported hike. Delaying location helps ensure the legitimacy of an unsupported hike.

Alligator
07-30-2013, 10:08
i've seen none of this guy's videos, forum posts, etc. saying he didn't want his location knownSo you didn't figure it out from the thread (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?90761-Self-Supported-In-Under-60-Days) you posted into 17 times? The delay and no posted start date was talked about a number of times in the thread with a lot of emphasis on the safety aspect. For instance, your post #344 is just two posts after someone making the safety reference. In that post you reference your disbelief about Nature Boy's assault. Then there were about 10-15 more posts discussing the safety issue and then you post in #360 exactly where you saw him. There are also various posts before that showing his progress, all lack an actual start date, which was never given anywhere. I don't think he does say no don't broadcast my exact position, but his actions surely indicate he is taking strong measures not to.

max patch
07-30-2013, 10:33
Putting aside the issue of if its right or wrong, I bet 90% (at least) of the members on WB would have posted that they saw Matt on the trail.

max patch
07-30-2013, 10:37
I have no idea what Matt looks like and if we passed on the trail I would have no clue who he was.

Lone Wolf, how did you recognize him?

Mags
07-30-2013, 10:50
re: where are the records kept

Don't know how official it is, but the Fastest Known Time (FKT) website is generally considered the source to get accurate records and where to post public attempts
http://fastestknowntime.proboards.com/

re: privacy

Still not sure what all this arguing is about. A person obviously is keeping a delay on his AT attempt for various reasons.

BFD.

I am sure when or if the record is broken, the appropriate records will be avail for those who wish to see them.

The rest of us will just say "Good job!" or "Good attempt" and go back to our lives of paying bills, putting away for retirement, taking WB breaks instead of smoking breaks and trying to get plans together for a long(ish) hike in the next year or two. ;)

Take a chill pill all. It's just fast and long walking.

Alligator
07-30-2013, 11:28
The issue goes beyond speed hiking, it's about hiker safety. Once you've got an idea that a person is on trail and the direction it becomes much easier to find somebody. It's an issue created by technology. If a person is not broadcasting their whereabouts, and/or making an effort to mask location, my opinion is that we ought to respect their privacy. It's an etiquette issue. Why not err on the side of caution in the interest of the person's safety?

Technology is creating an erosion of privacy that people coming of age are not always considering. The delay on information has shortened considerably in the hiking world. From trail registers, to online journals, to Facebook'ing from the trail. People might not want their location casually mentioned when somebody is giving an update right from a shelter. Do they have to tell every single person they might not want it broadcast? Give out a false name just for privacy? Or could people realize that perhaps it might be good etiquette to delay that information?

We've got the record seeking here clouding the issue but it is perhaps a reasonable time to discuss it. This comes up from time to time. Recently we had a thread about the young solo female hiker where this came up.

DandT40
07-30-2013, 11:36
I voted that a hiker does not waive their right to privacy, but that's only because I don't agree with the other options on the poll at all. Just because someone is making a record attempt we don't have any right to know where they are and when. That's just ridiculous. Everyone is allowed to hike their own hike. If they want to share more information in real time - great! I'm sure people will soak it up as I would. If they want to announce they are going for a record and then show up on the other end of the trial and prove their record - great! Whatever the hiker wants to do is completely up to them. If they specially request no one post their location we should also respect that as well. I don't know if that is the case with Matt or not for sure as I only know about him what I have read in the threads on here and the few videos of his I have seen on his blog. But by announcing a record attempt you do make yourself known. If others see you on the trail and you dont request privacy its free reign for them to post up about seeing you just like any other "notable" hiker out there.

hikerboy57
07-30-2013, 11:38
The issue goes beyond speed hiking, it's about hiker safety. Once you've got an idea that a person is on trail and the direction it becomes much easier to find somebody. It's an issue created by technology. If a person is not broadcasting their whereabouts, and/or making an effort to mask location, my opinion is that we ought to respect their privacy. It's an etiquette issue. Why not err on the side of caution in the interest of the person's safety?

Technology is creating an erosion of privacy that people coming of age are not always considering. The delay on information has shortened considerably in the hiking world. From trail registers, to online journals, to Facebook'ing from the trail. People might not want their location casually mentioned when somebody is giving an update right from a shelter. Do they have to tell every single person they might not want it broadcast? Give out a false name just for privacy? Or could people realize that perhaps it might be good etiquette to delay that information?

We've got the record seeking here clouding the issue but it is perhaps a reasonable time to discuss it. This comes up from time to time. Recently we had a thread about the young solo female hiker where this came up. I would agree that if they ask specifically for privacy that should be honored

Hill Ape
07-30-2013, 11:46
i would think privacy should be the default state, without asking for it. true, there aren't judges at every blaze, in fact there are no judges at all, there is no governing body, it is not a sport or competition. i can sort of understand speed hiking, but the record setting thing i find disgusting. just one more way for people to act elitist about the trail.

HikerMom58
07-30-2013, 12:06
i would think privacy should be the default state, without asking for it. true, there aren't judges at every blaze, in fact there are no judges at all, there is no governing body, it is not a sport or competition. i can sort of understand speed hiking, but the record setting thing i find disgusting. just one more way for people to act elitist about the trail.

Amen.....like Alligator said it's an etiquette issue. The record setting thing is muddying the water. Some are assuming that he is wanting attention but on his terms. That's why they are having a problem with him. They don't want it to be on his terms.

Seriously, I admire the ones that do it solely for themselves & not for the publicity etc...

I would not do anything to compromise anyone's safety. I would error on the side of safety & still enjoy "watching" them. Why should we really care if it's "delayed" or not.. I don't get it.

hobbs
07-30-2013, 12:10
I think the y have a right to some privacy..I think if they annouce their hike its because they want a way to verify they are on doing it..Keeping secret where they tell or delay where they've been comes from the hikerboy incident. As far as record attempts I would like to see it done NOBO like LW says prove it and not take the easier way..
Ward did his by mistake but noone has brocken it from NOBO since.

Mags
07-30-2013, 12:16
As I said, he's just delaying it a few days for his own reasons (privacy? safety? Just because?). Ain't no big deal. This is not exactly the biggest conspiracy since Watergate. :) I am sure when it is all over, there will be more than enough data for those who wish to look at that type of info.

In the mean time...enjoy the attempt, wish him well and perhaps plan your own hike? ;)

max patch
07-30-2013, 12:16
Because of what I'm about to write I'll start off by saying that I have no problem with LW announcing that he saw Matt in Damascus.

There is a bigger issue here. I'm surprised at the number of people who state that they believe that privacy is of paramount importance as this is different than what is posted on WB every hiker season. How many times have you read a post that says "I was hiking this weekend from Point A to Point B and I ran into the following thruhikers...." and they proceed to name them. I do not believe that someone out for the day/week/month/thru should be mentioned on a website in this manner unless they have given their permission to be named. I would hope that the mods take at look at this and change this to a prohibited discussion subject to immediate deletion.

HikerMom58
07-30-2013, 12:24
Because of what I'm about to write I'll start off by saying that I have no problem with LW announcing that he saw Matt in Damascus.

There is a bigger issue here. I'm surprised at the number of people who state that they believe that privacy is of paramount importance as this is different than what is posted on WB every hiker season. How many times have you read a post that says "I was hiking this weekend from Point A to Point B and I ran into the following thruhikers...." and they proceed to name them. I do not believe that someone out for the day/week/month/thru should be mentioned on a website in this manner unless they have given their permission to be named. I would hope that the mods take at look at this and change this to a prohibited discussion subject to immediate deletion.

You make a great point max patch...I have a problem with LW announcing that he saw Matt in Damascus and it follows right on into your next paragraph.... I will be sure not to announce seeing anyone on the trail, on here, from now on, in real time. Also, I don't think that pics should ever be posted of anyone, on the trail, unless they have their permission.

RED-DOG
07-30-2013, 13:10
Personnaly if i was doing some kind of Record attempt I would just tell the people that needed to know such as the ATC and tell them i wanted to keep it private until i was finished, and do my thang out their and every body else can mind their own buisness, but also if i knew or thought some one was publizing it on WB or any where else that would piss me off also make me nervous, No one has the right to publize the where abouts of an individual without their permission, IT IS A MAJOR SAFETY ISSUE.

Alligator
07-30-2013, 13:17
Because of what I'm about to write I'll start off by saying that I have no problem with LW announcing that he saw Matt in Damascus.

There is a bigger issue here. I'm surprised at the number of people who state that they believe that privacy is of paramount importance as this is different than what is posted on WB every hiker season. How many times have you read a post that says "I was hiking this weekend from Point A to Point B and I ran into the following thruhikers...." and they proceed to name them. I do not believe that someone out for the day/week/month/thru should be mentioned on a website in this manner unless they have given their permission to be named. I would hope that the mods take at look at this and change this to a prohibited discussion subject to immediate deletion.I look at more from an etiquette point of view not an enforcement standpoint to a degree. The trail is a public place, there are no laws against casually mentioning somebody's location. (Devil's advocate point.) We have the paparazzi who do that. Providing it's not stalking, it's not illegal. I don't think it is a good idea to do it and I don't think I have done it ever myself.

The real time issue is what strikes me as the serious issue. As you move away from the real time post of the real time location, the exactitude of location diminishes and the the variability increases. Of course you know direction and may be able to judge speed but other factors come into play like town stops, group dynamics, health, zeroes etc. A determined stalker can jump ahead and move down the trail back towards the hiker. We need to balance an absolute rule (instead of an etiquette rule) vs. the potential risk of harm from a stalker. My opinion is that a real time update has more opportunistic risk but that the risk goes down a lot moving away from that time point.

I don't follow your logic Max about not having a problem with Matt's location being stated. He's a thruhiker too. You don't have a problem with it but believe all such references should be prohibited. He didn't give express permission either. If you move to implicit permission since he announced, then we have the issue what is implicit permission. A journal, a blog, etc and we can't know every hiker who has done that. That's why I lean towards this being an etiquette rule.

thrower
07-30-2013, 13:22
I will try and end this debate once and for all for this situation as I believe that it has gone too far and it is time to present reasons for the delay. I've thoroughly enjoyed following everyone's discussion from the outside, but a line was crossed and I felt that I must take action. I am a close friend of Matt's, and myself and MadA decided that the wisest thing to do to avoid any potential of someone meeting up with Matt, be it friendly or not, was for safety reasons and the potential watering down of the attempt if someone happened to leave trail magic specifically for him, which therefore would blur the lines of an unsupported or a supported thru hike. Safety for Matt is the most important thing obviously. We were aware of what happened to Nature Boy on his attempt, although we are a bit skeptical of the entire thing as well, we did not want to take the chance of that happening again. We thought that the delay would be the best way to provide proof of Matt's hike and protect his safety at the same time. We are asking that you would please respect Matt's wishes and refrain from posting Matt's current whereabouts if you happen to see him on the trail. We all know that this has been exciting to watch, so why risk it now when he is this close? We will do our best to dump all the videos and official finishing time when he actually finishes so you don't have to wait. Until then, happy trails!

Hill Ape
07-30-2013, 13:44
Personnaly if i was doing some kind of Record attempt I would just tell the people that needed to know such as the ATC and tell them i wanted to keep it private until i was finished

the ATC could care less, they don't need or particularly want to know. they post a picture of anyone that passes thru, they keep a list of anyone that reports a trail completion, either by section or single season thru. beyond that, they don't get into records.

i think thrower has effectively settled the issue in regards to matt, lets respect his privacy and choice. but this issue is larger than one hiker. incidental posts of, "hey, i ran into joebob on the trail" are a little different than live action updates on the progress of a hiker that hasn't given clearance for that information to made public. their reasons are their own, not subject to having to justify or explain them to the members of a website. it could be security, it could be not wanting a crowd of well wishers and lookie loos, it could be any number of reasons that aren't really any of our business.

Sarcasm the elf
07-30-2013, 13:50
I have nothing constructive to add, just wanted to mention that keep misreading the thread headline as "Piracy on a speed hike."

Mags
07-30-2013, 14:03
I have nothing constructive to add, just wanted to mention that keep misreading the thread headline as "Piracy on a speed hike."

Arggh! There be whiteblazes ahead Matey!!!
http://birthday-caricatures.com/images/childrens_picture_books/peg_leg_pirate_cartoon_parrot.jpg

Ground Control
07-30-2013, 14:12
I will try and end this debate once and for all for this situation as I believe that it has gone too far and it is time to present reasons for the delay. I've thoroughly enjoyed following everyone's discussion from the outside, but a line was crossed and I felt that I must take action. I am a close friend of Matt's, and myself and MadA decided that the wisest thing to do to avoid any potential of someone meeting up with Matt, be it friendly or not, was for safety reasons and the potential watering down of the attempt if someone happened to leave trail magic specifically for him, which therefore would blur the lines of an unsupported or a supported thru hike. Safety for Matt is the most important thing obviously. We were aware of what happened to Nature Boy on his attempt, although we are a bit skeptical of the entire thing as well, we did not want to take the chance of that happening again. We thought that the delay would be the best way to provide proof of Matt's hike and protect his safety at the same time. We are asking that you would please respect Matt's wishes and refrain from posting Matt's current whereabouts if you happen to see him on the trail. We all know that this has been exciting to watch, so why risk it now when he is this close? We will do our best to dump all the videos and official finishing time when he actually finishes so you don't have to wait. Until then, happy trails!

Thank you!

max patch
07-30-2013, 14:17
I don't follow your logic Max about not having a problem with Matt's location being stated. He's a thruhiker too. You don't have a problem with it but believe all such references should be prohibited. He didn't give express permission either. If you move to implicit permission since he announced, then we have the issue what is implicit permission. A journal, a blog, etc and we can't know every hiker who has done that. That's why I lean towards this being an etiquette rule..

I consider Matt and his attempt at a record to be a "Public Figure"

thrower
07-30-2013, 14:34
.

I consider Matt and his attempt at a record to be a "Public Figure"

If anyone is wondering why he made his attempt public this is why, straight of of Peter Bawkins FKT site.

"How do you establish a speed record?
Buzz Burrell has proposed 3 common sense guidelines:



Announce your intentions in advance. Like a true gentleman, pay your respects to those who came before you, and tell them what you intend to attempt and when.

Be an open book. Invite anyone to come and watch or, better yet, participate. This makes your effort more fun and any result more believable.

Record your event. Write down everything immediately upon completion. Memory doesn't count.



These three rules do not "prove" you have done anything. They just make it easier for a good person to believe you."


And lets realize that Matt made his intentions known on his personal blog and on this site only. These two sites are not where you are going to get a lot of publicity. I don't really see that as trying to capture the publics eye like Karl Meltzer did in his previous attempt for the supported FKT. I know Matt, and his intentions where never and have never been for fame and glory. He likes to hike, he likes to run, and he likes to push his limits. That is all. If you are ever lucky to meet him, you will realize that he is one of the most humble and genuine people you know. He was just following the rules as above stated.

Jack Tarlin
07-30-2013, 14:45
Obviously, if people do not want their exact whereabouts publicized, for whatever reason, this should be respected. That being said, it is a simple truth that these "record" hikes, tho frequently described as "personal" challenges, or attempts at achieving one's personal best", well, that's great, but these ventures inevitably become as public as they are personal, and this is invariably due to the participants' "personal" choice to let other people know what they are attempting to do before they even start walking. In other words,we should by all means respect people's wish for privacy and self-protection, but when individuals, for whatever reason, choose to release press releases or announcements about their "special" hike, record attempt, etc., then they need to realize that in taking this step, there is the risk, in fact the likelihood, that their progress will be discussed in public forums, often in more detail than they might wish. In short, if you're really concerned about strangers knowing your itinerary, whereabouts, and other details of your hike, the simple expedient is to resist telling them about it ahead of time.

illabelle
07-30-2013, 14:46
thrower, thank you for bringing the facts.
and :welcome to WhiteBlaze!

4Bears
07-30-2013, 15:00
On one hand if someone is intent on some sort of notoriety then it would be imperative for them to make their intentions public. Then for them to use some public forum for others to track their progress. If they want some sort of privacy or security then they need to use a delayed journaling process. In the case of a hiker a couple years ago attempting a speed hike of the A.T., he seemingly kept a fairly accurate and up to date trail journal on T.J. This ultimately became his downfall, as several tried multiple times to circumvent his attempt, and eventually they were successful, after they dragged him from his tent and beat him half to death, causing him to abandon his quest due to those injuries. ... ... ..... .... .... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... This year out on the P.C.T. Anish is making an attempt at the record, her reports on Face Book are often days apart and most likely behind where she actually is, however public she is I feel she is doing herself a favor by avoiding exact locations, while allowing others to track her progress. So if one chooses to be public they have to weigh how much and how accurate, and how often they report their progress/location. It is completely up to the individual hiker making an attempt at a speed record hike as to how public they want to be and the court of public opinion holds no water on the issue.

HikerMom58
07-30-2013, 15:05
thrower, thank you for bringing the facts.
and :welcome to WhiteBlaze!

Yes, thank you thrower... "He likes to hike, he likes to run and likes to push his limits" "That is all", and that's the kind of person I was hoping he was... Good to know it's true! It's fun for us to respectfully follow him too! :)

Alligator
07-30-2013, 15:12
.

I consider Matt and his attempt at a record to be a "Public Figure"OK, but that's an exception you to your proposed rule that you did not and would need to clarify. So what if a record seeker has a workable plan to time delay their location. A trusted group of observers, with perhaps SPOT tracking or some other system of checking in. Plus they want to keep their location unrevealed in real time maybe not even posting updates at all because they have concerns about safety and they say please don't post my location. Respect their wishes or not? 'Cause if he breaks the record there will be interest in breaking his.

Mags
07-30-2013, 15:41
Obviously, if people do not want their exact whereabouts publicized, for whatever reason, this should be respected. T

I think that one sentence is all that needs to be said. :)


He's going for a record and likes to have a few days delay for various reasons discussed.

There was minimal public announcements made.

Hope he makes his goal and enjoys himself.

snifur
07-30-2013, 15:50
if he was doing it for himself he wouldnt have announced it

then no one here on WB thru-hikes for themselves? hmmm. i disagree.

hikerboy57
07-30-2013, 15:55
then no one here on WB thru-hikes for themselves? hmmm. i disagree.
although i modified my response to respect his request for privacy, announcing a record attempt is waaaaay different than the 75% of clueless hikers announcing their thru hike intent.

Sly
07-30-2013, 15:59
Sorry, I still can't understand all the hoopla about hiker safety. The trail is still one of the safest places on earth, and for the most part hikers are seldom, if ever, alone on the AT. People are assaulted and killed in daily life at every conceivable place. Now that they're in one of the safest places and it becomes a big concern?

Scared of bears?

snifur
07-30-2013, 15:59
There is a bigger issue here. I'm surprised at the number of people who state that they believe that privacy is of paramount importance as this is different than what is posted on WB every hiker season. How many times have you read a post that says "I was hiking this weekend from Point A to Point B and I ran into the following thruhikers...." I would hope that the mods take at look at this and change this to a prohibited discussion subject to immediate deletion.

I agree with this completely. There are several people here on WB that love to proclaim who they meet on the trail. I would wager that no one is asked if their locations can be put out for everyone to see. Many i believe would object to it.

hikerboy57
07-30-2013, 16:01
I agree with this completely. There are several people here on WB that love to proclaim who they meet on the trail. I would wager that no one is asked if their locations can be put out for everyone to see. Many i believe would object to it.
most tj entries have been done in real time

Sly
07-30-2013, 16:06
As far as record attempts I would like to see it done NOBO like LW says prove it and not take the easier way..


It's highly debatable that southbound is the easiest way, like it's a serious advantage. The difference is only 1500', the difference between Katahdin and Springer

snifur
07-30-2013, 16:07
I have nothing constructive to add, just wanted to mention that keep misreading the thread headline as "Piracy on a speed hike."

And the most original post award goes to... the elf!

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 16:31
I have no idea what Matt looks like and if we passed on the trail I would have no clue who he was.

Lone Wolf, how did you recognize him?

a lady i know pointed him out to me while she was ordering a pizza for him at the Blue-blaze Cafe. he walked by on his way to the brewery

Sly
07-30-2013, 16:32
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Jack Tarlin http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1508965#post1508965)

Obviously, if people do not want their exact whereabouts publicized, for whatever reason, this should be respected. T


I think that one sentence is all that needs to be said. :)


He's going for a record and likes to have a few days delay for various reasons discussed.

There was minimal public announcements made.

Hope he makes his goal and enjoys himself.

Yeah but have you ever read where Matt actually said that? Since it's said (by thrower, just bill) it was decided beforehand it would have been simple enough to put in his blog.

Frankly, thrower and just bill could be joe and jill blow for all we know.

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 16:44
I will try and end this debate once and for all for this situation as I believe that it has gone too far and it is time to present reasons for the delay. I've thoroughly enjoyed following everyone's discussion from the outside, but a line was crossed and I felt that I must take action. I am a close friend of Matt's, and myself and MadA decided that the wisest thing to do to avoid any potential of someone meeting up with Matt, be it friendly or not, was for safety reasons and the potential watering down of the attempt if someone happened to leave trail magic specifically for him, which therefore would blur the lines of an unsupported or a supported thru hike. Safety for Matt is the most important thing obviously. We were aware of what happened to Nature Boy on his attempt, although we are a bit skeptical of the entire thing as well, we did not want to take the chance of that happening again. We thought that the delay would be the best way to provide proof of Matt's hike and protect his safety at the same time. We are asking that you would please respect Matt's wishes and refrain from posting Matt's current whereabouts if you happen to see him on the trail. We all know that this has been exciting to watch, so why risk it now when he is this close? We will do our best to dump all the videos and official finishing time when he actually finishes so you don't have to wait. Until then, happy trails!

he never should've announced this record attempt if he wanted to remain anonymous. it shoulda stayed with him, you and his wife.

jeffmeh
07-30-2013, 16:45
I think Alligator nailed it. We are really talking about etiquette here, not a moral issue.

Matt was delaying his location reporting, and the thoughtful thing to do would be to respect that and not disclose his current location.

Disclosing such does not respect Matt's wishes, but if one chooses to do so that is his right.

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 16:51
Disclosing such does not respect Matt's wishes, but if one chooses to do so that is his right.

where exactly on Whiteblaze did he say he didn't want folks to know his location?

snifur
07-30-2013, 16:53
LW, is this essentially just an etiquette issue? I believe your thoughts on this subject are the most poignant. You are a subject matter expert on etiquette, correct? :rolleyes:

Sly
07-30-2013, 16:56
where exactly on Whiteblaze did he say he didn't want folks to know his location?

It's not on Whiteblaze, it's not on Matt's blog or Youtube page (that I saw). I don't believe it's ever been written (by Matt), only repeated as hearsay.

thrower
07-30-2013, 16:58
Sorry, I still can't understand all the hoopla about hiker safety. The trail is still one of the safest places on earth, and for the most part hikers are seldom, if ever, alone on the AT. People are assaulted and killed in daily life at every conceivable place. Now that they're in one of the safest places and it becomes a big concern?

You've contradicted yourself in your own post "People are assaulted and killed in daily life at every conceivable place." But I guess the AT isn't a conceivable place? Also, in this case there are potentially a lot of people following along. More so than for a typical thru hike. And if it weren't for the reasons already stated above, that go beyond just hiker safety, it would seem foolish to give live updates. And Sly I do agree that the AT is one of safest places in the world, but assaults on the AT do happen and have happened. Any attempt to keep something like that from happening is wise.


Frankly, thrower and just bill could be joe and jill blow for all we know.

As far as this goes, I had a feeling someone would question my legitimacy. So for some proof that I am who I say I am here it is. If you follow this link (http://matthewkirk.blogspot.com/2013/01/9.html) to Matt's blog you will see my name mentioned, which is Brandon by the way, and that link (here (http://trailsandjubilation.blogspot.com/2013/01/uwharrie-training-week-6.html)) will direct you to my blog about the same week and run. If you want further proof that I am who I say I am then, I am 5'10", have brown hair, a beard, hazel eyes, work as a PE teacher, am the author of this article (http://www.irunfar.com/2013/02/trail-running-in-and-around-asheville-nc-beer-city-usa.html), and my social security number is *6*-***-*5**. You really didn't think I would give out my social would you? I will also not give out my exact current location because I'm not stupid.

snifur
07-30-2013, 17:00
I can verify the accuracy of information if you give me your credit car number, and the security code on the back. i can figure out the rest from there.

Sly
07-30-2013, 17:01
Thrower you've missed the conversation for the last 10 years. The AT is safer than shutting yourself indoors. More people die getting out of the bathtub. Matt would be in more danger if he stayed at home.

Mags
07-30-2013, 17:08
OK folks...it is now getting into mud flinging. :) Relax a bit and try to get back on topic. M'OK?

thrower
07-30-2013, 17:14
Thrower you've missed the conversation for the last 10 years. The AT is safer than shutting yourself indoors. More people die getting out of the bathtub. Matt would be in more danger if he stayed at home.

I've already agreed with you that the AT is extremely safe and I definitely feel safer on the trails than anywhere else. I should know, as I spend at least 5 days a week, alone, running the trails around western NC. Don't talk to me about being paranoid. You just seem to lack common sense.

Hill Ape
07-30-2013, 17:14
there is no reason to distrust thrower, or call his honesty into question. doing that so quickly, with so little cause, says more about you than it does him. this thread has taken a dark turn

thrower
07-30-2013, 17:14
OK folks...it is now getting into mud flinging. :) Relax a bit and try to get back on topic. M'OK?

Sorry Mags.

Alligator
07-30-2013, 17:17
Sorry, I still can't understand all the hoopla about hiker safety. The trail is still one of the safest places on earth, and for the most part hikers are seldom, if ever, alone on the AT. People are assaulted and killed in daily life at every conceivable place. Now that they're in one of the safest places and it becomes a big concern?

Scared of bears?There are safety issues and privacy issues. It becomes less safe when somebody gives a real time update to a hiker's location. You are pinpointing a location on what is basically a line. I don't know if normally people would post to a public forum something like, I just ran into local residents Jenny and Steve (who this person doesn't know) at the city park. Post it as I'm here at the #WildcatShelter with SOBO's #FlowerPower and #RamblinBones. (Did I hashtag that correctly?) Then you'd right quick be able to find them. Jenny and Steve could wander off anywhere in just a few minutes. The SOBOs well, they might be sleeping there.

Bad things do happen on the trail, although I do agree that it's safer than most places. Why lessen that when all it takes is a little discretion? I do understand that some people feel a record seeker should be under scrutiny. I think there are options to that though. That's the main topic here but there's also the real time posting about ordinary thruhikers.

Don't hashtag me bro.

Alligator
07-30-2013, 17:21
LW, is this essentially just an etiquette issue? I believe your thoughts on this subject are the most poignant. You are a subject matter expert on etiquette, correct? :rolleyes:I framed it as an etiquette situation, but don't go claiming I'm not etiquetteful.

thrower
07-30-2013, 17:24
I can verify the accuracy of information if you give me your credit car number, and the security code on the back. i can figure out the rest from there.

Haha. They are ....... :)

Seatbelt
07-30-2013, 17:33
It's highly debatable that southbound is the easiest way, like it's a serious advantage. The difference is only 1500', the difference between Katahdin and Springer

Don't you have to climb both of them??

Malto
07-30-2013, 17:40
Because of what I'm about to write I'll start off by saying that I have no problem with LW announcing that he saw Matt in Damascus.

There is a bigger issue here. I'm surprised at the number of people who state that they believe that privacy is of paramount importance as this is different than what is posted on WB every hiker season. How many times have you read a post that says "I was hiking this weekend from Point A to Point B and I ran into the following thruhikers...." and they proceed to name them. I do not believe that someone out for the day/week/month/thru should be mentioned on a website in this manner unless they have given their permission to be named. I would hope that the mods take at look at this and change this to a prohibited discussion subject to immediate deletion.

I agree completely that there is way too much hiker sightings across the board. There are people that may not want their whereabouts announced and it should be assumed that is the case unless confirmed.

hikerboy57
07-30-2013, 17:59
I agree completely that there is way too much hiker sightings across the board. There are people that may not want their whereabouts announced and it should be assumed that is the case unless confirmed.
i really dont see this as an issue at all.people post real time accounts as well as pics both here and on trail journals all the time. in addition, the trail is safer than most communities and towns.there are exceptions like chipmunk and other young hikers, but even they are hiking within a group, and i dont think it would be prudent to identify a thru hiker who may be solo, telling the world that he/she is staying by a roadside shelter, but in general, i dont see it as an issue.i dont think a maliciuos person is going to go on whiteblaze to see whos sleeping where.maybe an angry boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife?

jeffmeh
07-30-2013, 18:08
where exactly on Whiteblaze did he say he didn't want folks to know his location?

I believe that by delaying the release of the youtube videos he demonstrated a clear intent not to disclose his current location.

max patch
07-30-2013, 18:12
Back when Trailplace was THE place for AT talk and THE place to post online journals, the journals were posted as rec'd by Wingfoot. One year a guy had a serious case of puppy love for a girl whose journal he was following and was able to figure out where she was and met her on the trail. Seriously freaked the girl out. She told Wingfoot, and from that date forward he started to hold all journal updates for a set period of time before updating them online.

Having said that, to me its more a privacy issue than anything else. No one has the right to disclose where someone else is. If someone wants to be invisible for any reason so be it.

hikerboy57
07-30-2013, 18:14
Back when Trailplace was THE place for AT talk and THE place to post online journals, the journals were posted as rec'd by Wingfoot. One year a guy had a serious case of puppy love for a girl whose journal he was following and was able to figure out where she was and met her on the trail. Seriously freaked the girl out. She told Wingfoot, and from that date forward he started to hold all journal updates for a set period of time before updating them online.

Having said that, to me its more a privacy issue than anything else. No one has the right to disclose where someone else is. If someone wants to be invisible for any reason so be it. if someone wants to be invisible they wouldn't post journal in the first place or at the very least they would delay the posting of it themselves this is not uncommon

HikerMom58
07-30-2013, 18:17
i really dont see this as an issue at all.people post real time accounts as well as pics both here and on trail journals all the time. in addition, the trail is safer than most communities and towns.there are exceptions like chipmunk and other young hikers, but even they are hiking within a group, and i dont think it would be prudent to identify a thru hiker who may be solo, telling the world that he/she is staying by a roadside shelter, but in general, i dont see it as an issue.i dont think a maliciuos person is going to go on whiteblaze to see whos sleeping where.maybe an angry boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife?

You'd be surprised HB just how many people really do pay attention to hikers hiking the trail. I like to think of them as friendly stalkers but not all of them are necessarily friendly.

When my daughter was hiking the trail in 2008, there was a chick trail name-Certain. She was a solo female hiker. She said it really "freaked her out" when total strangers (friendly stalkers) would come up to her & know exactly who she was & would ask her about something she had post in her TJ.

Even this year when Rash (Josh Calhoun) was walking down the road in Daleville, someone offered him a ride to the shopping center. He said they knew exactly who he was from his TJ. It freaked him out as well.

This is all fine & good when the people are friendly but it's not reality to believe that is ALWAYS the case.

Who knows why someone would want to mess with a hiker????

The guy that runs the Blueberry Hostel (Gary) told me that it wasn't a good idea to post real time in TJ's at all... he said no one should.

max patch
07-30-2013, 18:18
if someone wants to be invisible they wouldn't post journal in the first place or at the very least they would delay the posting of it themselves this is not uncommon

I'm talking about the vast majority of hikers who don't do journals..

hikerboy57
07-30-2013, 18:19
Exactly my point if you don't want somebody knowing where you are why post it online

hikerboy57
07-30-2013, 18:22
Hey it freaked me out this spring that so many people knew me from wb. But with so many people out on the trail I never felt like it would ever become a safety issue

hikerboy57
07-30-2013, 18:28
i'll tell you what, regardless of your opinion, i think this thread sheds a lot of light on some issues that need to be considered.
even the disappearance of inchworm has me wondering about carrying a spot, as i do like to bushwack off trail once in a while.
its a great discussion.

HikerMom58
07-30-2013, 18:50
Hey it freaked me out this spring that so many people knew me from wb. But with so many people out on the trail I never felt like it would ever become a safety issue

Booyah!!! ;) You were hiking with the bubble too. There's always safety in numbers!! :)

Malto
07-30-2013, 18:51
i really dont see this as an issue at all.people post real time accounts as well as pics both here and on trail journals all the time. in addition, the trail is safer than most communities and towns.there are exceptions like chipmunk and other young hikers, but even they are hiking within a group, and i dont think it would be prudent to identify a thru hiker who may be solo, telling the world that he/she is staying by a roadside shelter, but in general, i dont see it as an issue.i dont think a maliciuos person is going to go on whiteblaze to see whos sleeping where.maybe an angry boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife?

While I understand that you don't see a problem with posting your location, I also know for a fact that others DO have a problem with it. Because of that it should be common courtesy before writing about a hikers location. For example, you meet SuperHiker in Damascus on May 1. She delays her journal by 3 days and talks about Damascus on May 4th. Simple math gives the offset. I kept a real time journal and have little problem giving out my location. But I also understand that others are difference and etiquette would suggest respecting that privacy unless others give permission. I have major problems with both reports of hikers like chipmunk and the blanket, here's the hikers I met today threads that does nothing more than announce locations.

hikerboy57
07-30-2013, 18:58
While I understand that you don't see a problem with posting your location, I also know for a fact that others DO have a problem with it. Because of that it should be common courtesy before writing about a hikers location. For example, you meet SuperHiker in Damascus on May 1. She delays her journal by 3 days and talks about Damascus on May 4th. Simple math gives the offset. I kept a real time journal and have little problem giving out my location. But I also understand that others are difference and etiquette would suggest respecting that privacy unless others give permission. I have major problems with both reports of hikers like chipmunk and the blanket, here's the hikers I met today threads that does nothing more than announce locations.
like i said, im glad we're having this discussion.and the best way for thrus to protect their anonymity is to delay posting. but just pictures, some people knew me by sight, just from seeing pics of me on whiteblaze, and i was fairly easy to track when i was on trail.you do bring up important points, but overall, i dont see safety as a big issue for the vast majority of thrus, especially if they are not announcing their locations themselves. i know a few who you can actually track by their spots. and its public information.
i think its hard to prevent someone from commenting on someone they met on trail, and difficult to be vague about the circumstances.i think it would be a very small few that would need to be concerned about their safety from a possibly predator/evildoer on the trail.

Sly
07-30-2013, 19:10
Back when Trailplace was THE place for AT talk and THE place to post online journals, the journals were posted as rec'd by Wingfoot. One year a guy had a serious case of puppy love for a girl whose journal he was following and was able to figure out where she was and met her on the trail. Seriously freaked the girl out. She told Wingfoot, and from that date forward he started to hold all journal updates for a set period of time before updating them online.
.

I know you realize that was 15 years ago.

It's extremely infrequent there's actual malice to hikers from internet weirdos. Certainly not enough for what may end up as a 15 page thread.

max patch
07-30-2013, 19:14
15 pages? C'mon Sly this is WB we'll blow by that anytime now.

Sly
07-30-2013, 19:16
When my daughter was hiking the trail in 2008, there was a chick trail name-Certain. She was a solo female hiker. She said it really "freaked her out" when total strangers (friendly stalkers) would come up to her & know exactly who she was & would ask her about something she had post in her TJ.

Even this year when Rash (Josh Calhoun) was walking down the road in Daleville, someone offered him a ride to the shopping center. He said they knew exactly who he was from his TJ. It freaked him out as well.

This is all fine & good when the people are friendly but it's not reality to believe that is ALWAYS the case.

Who knows why someone would want to mess with a hiker????

The guy that runs the Blueberry Hostel (Gary) told me that it wasn't a good idea to post real time in TJ's at all... he said no one should.

Seriously how gullible and naive can people be? The two above were posting to Trail Journals, which is open to the public. Of course others have heard of them, why would they be so surprised?

I'm not sure Gary (Poteat) even knows what email is. ;)

Sly
07-30-2013, 19:18
15 pages? C'mon Sly this is WB we'll blow by that anytime now.

LOl... yeah, you're probably right!

HikerMom58
07-30-2013, 19:24
Seriously how gullible and naive can people be? The two above were posting to Trail Journals, which is open to the public. Of course others have heard of them, why would they be so surprised?

I'm not sure gary (Poteat) even knows what email is. ;)

Well, they wouldn't be surprised if they really thought about it but it still freaks people out when a random stranger "knows" and recognizes you. IDK.. it's the way we roll now.....:D

Sly
07-30-2013, 19:36
Well, they wouldn't be surprised if they really thought about it but it still freaks people out when a random stranger "knows" and recognizes you. IDK.. it's the way we roll now.....:D

Yeah but next thing you know they're looking sign autographs and book appearances.

HikerMom58
07-30-2013, 19:44
Yeah but next thing you know they're looking sign autographs and book appearances.

Ohhhhhhhhhh yeah, that could be true... it's funny how fast all the "fame" can go to ones head!! :p

Sly
07-30-2013, 20:39
Ohhhhhhhhhh yeah, that could be true... it's funny how fast all the "fame" can go to ones head!! :p

Let's take Jen Pharr Davis for instance, someone I know, like and respect. According to many here and probably Brew and Jen themselves, their record run schedule wasn't real time, presumably for safety concerns, even though much of the time someone was walking with her, and she was meeting her husband several times daily. Now her schedule is public, she's booked weekly and a hell of a lot easier to find.

What's changed? If you ask me it's only their perception.

Dogwood
07-30-2013, 21:11
Does a hiker on an announced speed hike waive their right to privacy?

No, not within the normal limits of the law, but he better understand that he opened the door to being publically srutinized when he made the public announcement. He has no more and no less rights than any other other hiker on the AT. Preferences that he may desire - that's a different thing. Don't confuse preferneces with rights and don't talk about rights unless you are also willing to abide by the resonsibilty they also entail.

HikerMom58
07-30-2013, 21:26
Let's take Jen Pharr Davis for instance, someone I know, like and respect. According to many here and probably Brew and Jen themselves, their record run schedule wasn't real time, presumably for safety concerns, even though much of the time someone was walking with her, and she was meeting her husband several times daily. Now her schedule is public, she's booked weekly and a hell of a lot easier to find.

What's changed? If you ask me it's only their perception.

I think the big thing that changed was when Jen was hiking the trail even though she wasn't totally alone the woods it was her "home", her "address", if you will. That's where she spent the majority of her time, that was her "safe place".

Now, she has complete privacy, her home, where no one can find her if they decide to go looking for her. She is in control of when they can see her, now. That's what i think......

Hill Ape
07-30-2013, 21:26
looking at another angle. if a posting on this forum disclosed the location of a hiker without consent, and some insane stalker that was obessed with that hiker used the information found here to locate, and then rape/kill the hike... how much responsibility and criminal/civil liability would this forum face? morally and legally, there are implications that go way beyond simply proving a speed hike.

Dogwood
07-30-2013, 21:29
In short, someone that deserves and has earned our respect- regardless of our feelings on a Speed Hike.

In all honesty I've only met Matt in person once or twice and had all of one of a two minute conversation with him. Most of what I know about him is through others. Seems like a person that could gain my respect or I could possibly respect more if I know him better but to say he deserves my implicit respect is a bit too far FOR ME to go right now. I tend to give people respect because they earned it BOTH on and off the palying field.

Matt Kirk announced his hike, quite quietly and humbly, stopped by this site, not to pass the word, but to comment on the fact that a few members of this site made his hike public here. Since then he has intentionally chosen not to publish the actual date of his hike or his location. Whether for safety, out of humility, or simple personal preference his request was that his location not be known to the public. We should respect that choice?

I don't know for a fact all what transpired but I learned of Matt's speed hike not from anyone here on WB but through Jen's language. Where and how she got that I can only assume.

Turning too much into a soap opera for me. See ya.

atmilkman
07-30-2013, 21:35
Turning too much into a soap opera for me. See ya.

These are the Days of Our Lives.

Dogwood
07-30-2013, 21:55
looking at another angle. if a posting on this forum disclosed the location of a hiker without consent, and some insane stalker that was obessed with that hiker used the information found here to locate, and then rape/kill the hike... how much responsibility and criminal/civil liability would this forum face? morally and legally, there are implications that go way beyond simply proving a speed hike.

No one has the LEGAL right to autonymous privacy on a public trail. It's a public trail not a private exclusive made for those in a special club with special rights trail.

Dogwood
07-30-2013, 21:57
These are the Days of Our Lives.

Isn't that the truth for some of us, including me. Too much cyber space in my current lifestyle. Time to switch gears for this person.

Sarcasm the elf
07-30-2013, 22:02
Speaking generally:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/207684_579721335390657_497591206_n.jpg

Sly
07-30-2013, 22:04
looking at another angle. if a posting on this forum disclosed the location of a hiker without consent, and some insane stalker that was obessed with that hiker used the information found here to locate, and then rape/kill the hike... how much responsibility and criminal/civil liability would this forum face? morally and legally, there are implications that go way beyond simply proving a speed hike.

Can we get back to reality?

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 22:04
I believe that by delaying the release of the youtube videos he demonstrated a clear intent not to disclose his current location.

bullcrap.......

hikerboy57
07-30-2013, 22:05
looking at another angle. if a posting on this forum disclosed the location of a hiker without consent, and some insane stalker that was obessed with that hiker used the information found here to locate, and then rape/kill the hike... how much responsibility and criminal/civil liability would this forum face? morally and legally, there are implications that go way beyond simply proving a speed hike.
its a new age. facebook,twitter, im's,the ability to send photos and video instantly around the world. not to mention the proliference of surveillance cameras in most major, and many minor cities. it is difficult today to be totally anonymous. a pic posted on line or a you tube video innocently revealing the whereabouts of a supposedly anonymous hiker. no name given, but someone recognizes him and from the date of the vid or pic, figures out roughly where he is?dont think that would hold up in court. way too much grey area.
besides, the at is still one of the safest places in the country to live, with a little common sense.
this is a good debate because it forces us to think about our own personal safety,but now you're getting paranoid.possible?yes.likely?not very.

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 22:11
i'm the most hated SOB on this site and other sites but i'm the most easy to find. if someone wants to do harm to me, i ain't hard to find. this secretive crap about a guy doin' a fast walk is laugheable :rolleyes:

Sly
07-30-2013, 22:13
Matt Kirk announced his hike, quite quietly and humbly, stopped by this site, not to pass the word, but to comment on the fact that a few members of this site made his hike public here. Since then he has intentionally chosen not to publish the actual date of his hike or his location. Whether for safety, out of humility, or simple personal preference his request was that his location not be known to the public. We should respect that choice?


It's a trail community!

What's was stopping Matt or Jen or anyone that wants their privacy on hike from SAYING so? How difficult would it be to add a simple disclosure to their blog. "In order not to be overwhelmed with well wishers during my record attempt, I'm going to delay my blog entries. Please respect my wishes and if you happen to see me on the trail, don't give the time or my whereabouts, thank you and god bless"

Just Bill
07-30-2013, 22:13
i'm the most hated SOB on this site and other sites but i'm the most easy to find. if someone wants to do harm to me, i ain't hard to find. this secretive crap about a guy doin' a fast walk is laugheable :rolleyes:
I Like you very much, hopefully I can make it to trail days and you and I can do some harm to a few beers.

hikerboy57
07-30-2013, 22:14
i'm the most hated SOB on this site and other sites but i'm the most easy to find. if someone wants to do harm to me, i ain't hard to find. this secretive crap about a guy doin' a fast walk is laugheable :rolleyes:
hikermom loves you whether you like it or not

Sly
07-30-2013, 22:14
i'm the most hated SOB on this site and other sites but i'm the most easy to find. if someone wants to do harm to me, i ain't hard to find.

Yeah, I was going to say that...

hobbs
07-30-2013, 22:14
i'm the most hated SOB on this site and other sites but i'm the most easy to find. if someone wants to do harm to me, i ain't hard to find. this secretive crap about a guy doin' a fast walk is laugheable :rolleyes:

Fir some reseason your the whipping post on here from what I get..

Hill Ape
07-30-2013, 22:18
i'm not paranoid, and i'm firmly rooted in reality. i know exactly how litigious the world has become. its all fun and games until someone gets sued.

and i'm not new to the trail, no matter how many thousands of posts some of you may have, i live within 30 mins walking distance of amicalola and have my entire life, on the ellijay side of 42

but whatever

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 22:18
i'm the most hated SOB on this site and other sites but i'm the most easy to find. if someone wants to do harm to me, i ain't hard to find. this secretive crap about a guy doin' a fast walk is laugheable :rolleyes:

and i had a guy come to damascus last year off a bus, looked for me to do harm to me because i called cops on his buddy for smokin' dope in the church hostel. he failed on the harm thing, got arrested and sent packin'. matt ain't got no problems. it's a walkin' path. y'all are wrapped too tight

rocketsocks
07-30-2013, 22:20
i'm the most hated SOB on this site and other sites but i'm the most easy to find. if someone wants to do harm to me, i ain't hard to find. this secretive crap about a guy doin' a fast walk is laugheable :rolleyes:ok, what are ya doin Friday after next :D

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 22:22
Fir some reseason your the whipping post on here from what I get..

whatever. i ask for it. but i've walked more miles on the cAT than most. i got a lot to say. ask a simple question, you'll get a simple answer. you wanna get cute, i'll get cute and get deleted, banned, put in time out, whatever. this thread is ridiculous. but i'll play :)

HikerMom58
07-30-2013, 22:27
i'm the most hated SOB on this site and other sites but i'm the most easy to find. if someone wants to do harm to me, i ain't hard to find. this secretive crap about a guy doin' a fast walk is laugheable :rolleyes:

Just because all of us don't agree with you, don't get so butt hurt over it. :o


hikermom loves you whether you like it or not

Yes, I do love you!! I might not like you sometimes but I love you still.


and i had a guy come to damascus last year off a bus, looked for me to do harm to me because i called cops on his buddy for smokin' dope in the church hostel. he failed on the harm thing, got arrested and sent packin'. matt ain't got no problems. it's a walkin' path. y'all are wrapped too tight

Don't make it about yourself, LW. It's about Matt and his privacy. The walkin' path is his "home" right now, his address. He don't want to give it out. Everyone needs a "safe place". Lock your doors tonight. Control who gets to see you in your own home, OK?? That's what we are talking about here.....

hikerboy57
07-30-2013, 22:29
i'm not paranoid, and i'm firmly rooted in reality. i know exactly how litigious the world has become. its all fun and games until someone gets sued.

and i'm not new to the trail, no matter how many thousands of posts some of you may have, i live within 30 mins walking distance of amicalola and have my entire life, on the ellijay side of 42

but whatever
forget about the liability.how often do crimes occur on the trail?yes they happen, but its a very short list.

Sly
07-30-2013, 22:33
Don't make it about yourself, LW. It's about Matt and his privacy. The walkin' path is his "home" right now, his address. He don't want to give it out. Everyone needs a "safe place". Lock your doors tonight. Control who gets to see you in your own home, OK?? That's what we are talking about here.....

Oh please, the Appalachian Trail is not Matt's or anyone elses private domain. Not for 60 days, not for a minute.

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 22:35
Just because all of us don't agree with you, don't get so butt hurt over it. :o




Don't make it about yourself, LW. It's about Matt and his privacy. The walkin' path is his "home" right now, his address. He don't want to give it out. Everyone needs a "safe place". Lock your doors tonight. Control who gets to see you in your own home, OK?? That's what we are talking about here.....
you're clueless. really. no offense

snifur
07-30-2013, 22:37
i'm the most hated SOB on this site and other sites but i'm the most easy to find.

I can think of at least 3 others that irritate me way more than you do! :rolleyes: I find your perspective on many of these topics refreshingly original.

snifur
07-30-2013, 22:39
you're clueless. really. no offense

this is exactly what the world needs more of! i shall drink a beverage of choice to you LW!

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 22:39
I find your perspective on many of these topics refreshingly original.

my IQ is low

Just Bill
07-30-2013, 22:43
you're clueless. really. no offense

You're not butt hurt? I would think laughing your ass off all day while pulling insults out it would hurt it. Why didn't you respond to the Chafing article thread if you've got the problem solved? Help us out here...

HikerMom58
07-30-2013, 22:43
Oh please, the Appalachian Trail is not Matt's or anyone elses private domain. Not for 60 days, not for a minute.

It's not his private domain but he doesn't need to tell you where he is on the AT, neither does anyone else. In fact, it's prob. a good idea not too.

snifur
07-30-2013, 22:44
it's a walkin' path. y'all are wrapped too tight

this guy is a genius! seriously, an older crusty genius...

HikerMom58
07-30-2013, 22:45
you're clueless. really. no offense

I'm not clueless.. I just don't see things the way you do.

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 22:45
You're not butt hurt? I would think laughing your ass off all day while pulling insults out it would hurt it. Why didn't you respond to the Chafing article thread if you've got the problem solved? Help us out here...

quit trollin'. seriously

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 22:47
I'm not clueless.. I just don't see things the way you do.

you're not a long distance hiker. you don't know the culture.

Just Bill
07-30-2013, 22:48
quit trollin'. seriously

I learned it from watching you dad!

HikerMom58
07-30-2013, 22:54
you're not a long distance hiker. you don't know the culture.

I'm not a long distant hiker but I can't understand this guy, Matt?? I'm not alone in my thinking, either. It's OK. We don't think you're an SOB for announcing you saw him. I prob. would have as well, myself, if I didn't stop to think about his feelings. No harm. We're just talkin... we are all cool!! :cool:

rocketsocks
07-30-2013, 22:54
I learned it from watching you dad!
Now that's funny! :D

hobbs
07-30-2013, 22:57
I learned it from watching you dad!

You have to laugh at that..

Sly
07-30-2013, 23:01
It's not his private domain but he doesn't need to tell you where he is on the AT, neither does anyone else. In fact, it's prob. a good idea not too.

Of course he doesn't need to tell us anything. I guess he just happens to have a blog and 45 Youtube videos for his own amusement. Perhaps he should have just waited until he was done to post. That way there would be less problems with his whereabouts.

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 23:03
I'm not a long distant hiker but I can't understand this guy, Matt?? I'm not alone in my thinking, either. It's OK. We don't think you're an SOB for announcing you saw him. I prob. would have as well, myself, if I didn't stop to think about his feelings. No harm. We're just talkin... we are all cool!! :cool:

you will never understand Matt. he's wrapped different

HikerMom58
07-30-2013, 23:08
Of course he doesn't need to tell us anything. I guess he just happens to have 45 Youtube videos for his own amusement. Perhaps he should have just waited until he was done to post. That way there would be less problems with his whereabouts.

Sorry but you're not making any sense...you keep twisting things around. It's not that he doesn't want to share. He just doesn't want to share EVERYTHING. That's fine... neither did Jen. Neither does Chipmunk....

Hill Ape
07-30-2013, 23:09
yeah, and you seem to be the expert on him. what the fock is your problem anyway? nothing to be proud of being a lone wolf, all it means is a pack kicked you out.

Just Bill
07-30-2013, 23:09
HMKD- let er go. Time to follow the advice of Rain Man grasshopper.

hobbs
07-30-2013, 23:12
HMKD- let er go. Time to follow the advice of Rain Man grasshopper.

Amen to that

Sly
07-30-2013, 23:18
Sorry but you're not making any sense...you keep twisting things around. It's not that he doesn't want to share. He just doesn't want to share EVERYTHING. That's fine... neither did Jen. Neither does Chipmunk....

It seems to me they're obviously seeking the spotlight and publicity about their hikes. Otherwise they never would have been announced beforehand. Matt could have just as easily posted his videos after his hike, and along with a couple newspaper headlines would have been suitable proof. Of course since it is so secretive, there's no actual proof. As it is who's to say when he started, or what his exact finish time will be? If security and privacy are so critical why even bother creating buzz during the hike?

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 23:22
yeah, and you seem to be the expert on him. what the fock is your problem anyway? nothing to be proud of being a lone wolf, all it means is a pack kicked you out.if you're typin' at me then i'll address you. my "problem" or more like an irritation, is folks like you spouting off on a subject you know nothing about. and BTW, lone wolves choose to be packless. do some research :cool: i'm no expert on Matt but i've hung around a lot of folks like him. you'll never 'get' it

Alligator
07-30-2013, 23:42
Of course he doesn't need to tell us anything. I guess he just happens to have a blog and 45 Youtube videos for his own amusement. Perhaps he should have just waited until he was done to post. That way there would be less problems with his whereabouts.Do you or do you not believe that he put a time delay on the information he provided to protect his safety. Yes or No? You were reading along with that thread too.

Alligator
07-30-2013, 23:44
You too Lone Wolf, same question. Do you or do you not believe that he put a time delay on the information he provided to protect his safety. Yes or No?

Sly
07-30-2013, 23:49
Do you or do you not believe that he put a time delay on the information he provided to protect his safety. Yes or No? You were reading along with that thread too.

I honestly have no idea. I'm not sure who's actually posting the video from where. As I said a couple times, a simple disclosure asking for privacy on his blog would go a long way and indisputable.

Of course it wouldn't address the the fact he's actually safer on the trail than the ride to the trailhead.

Added: here's a brief explanation from Matt saying his friend Adam is posting the videos that Matt's sending him. That would account for some of the delay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD88_QCsejA

Lone Wolf
07-30-2013, 23:50
You too Lone Wolf, same question. Do you or do you not believe that he put a time delay on the information he provided to protect his safety. Yes or No?

i do not believe he put a time delay on his whereabouts for SAFETY but perhaps for the "trail magic" thing. in that case he can just refuse

Alligator
07-31-2013, 00:01
I honestly have no idea. I'm not sure who's actually posting the video from where. As I said a couple times, a simple disclosure asking for privacy on his blog would go a long way and indisputable.

Of course it wouldn't address the the fact he's actually safer on the trail than the ride to the trailhead.Noted, you are absolutely clueless about why he might have put a time delay on it.

Hill Ape
07-31-2013, 00:03
moderators can't be added to the ignore list, brilliant

Sly
07-31-2013, 00:05
Noted, you are absolutely clueless about why he might have put a time delay on it.

Yeah, along with you any everybody else.

Alligator
07-31-2013, 00:12
Yeah, along with you any everybody else.No actually his friend has provided the information. It's a very reasonable source. You are just at this point being obtuse about it.

Just Bill
07-31-2013, 00:28
All-right- that should do it then for the insult interlude. Well done all, that was a mostly civilized discussion. Thank ya for it. I'm sure it will continue- but time to give LW a breather. That was the single most impressive display in recent memory, I think at one point you had ten "fights" going on at least several threads at once. I am impressed as always. For those of you who haven't learned their lesson, don't feed the wolf unless you're cool with getting nipped, he plays with his food. On a more serious note, Sly, not sure how it happened but you argued your way into one of the best (serious) posts of the thread-
It's a trail community!

What's was stopping Matt or Jen or anyone that wants their privacy on hike from SAYING so? How difficult would it be to add a simple disclosure to their blog. "In order not to be overwhelmed with well wishers during my record attempt, I'm going to delay my blog entries. Please respect my wishes and if you happen to see me on the trail, don't give the time or my whereabouts, thank you and god bless" I honestly don't think Matt thought of it, or thought it was needed, but others can comment on that directly. It was correctly pointed out that he failed to make such a request in writing. A technical point, but a bit of a silly one really in the face of common sense. Despite arguments to the contrary, I think most of us know the intent, even if he forgot to turn in a signed note from mommy to the principal. We are a community, Matt's a backpacker. Thrower was kind enough to stop by and belatedly turn in Matt's permission slip kindly asking for restraint and respect. A fellow backpacker asked a site full of backpackers to kindly treat him with courtesy, that should be it. Why did he ask? The tricky part I think is two-fold, and one that most folks don't or won't get. Safety is in the back of all our minds, but not really in this case. Self-supported is a SUPER tricky thing to define on this site, it's an even slipperier slope in the fastest known time community. Delaying your post's makes good sense for a lot of reasons, most of which won't make sense here, and many of which aren't relevant to a normal hike. Matt's a pretty clean guy, I don't think his overall burden of proof will be contested beyond the mildest of scrutiny, but that's not always the case- and the AT isn't where a lot of the troubles and burdens on record setter's minds come from. For most folks here- a badass dude is doing something cool. For the most part that's the way it will go elsewhere, but there are some folks in shorter distance races and trails that are very unkind to each other. (Think Lone Wolf- but actually mean, and in your face. And a few hundred of them) Honestly we have a pretty cool community of folks here- not so much in the other circles. A record setter bears the burden of proof that they have set the record, and followed whatever rules imposed by the previous record setter and/or community standards. The dreaded announcement on the AT, is actually a requirement in that other group- while you can make what's called a stealth attempt, some consider NOT announcing to be bad form. That said, the only burden is proof. Not having his location known is actually a solid strategy to assist in this burden. There will be some chatter, just like folks chatter about Ward Leonard not having followed today's "rules". Matt bears a heavier burden than most. A supported hike, one must only verify they have travelled a set distance in a set amount of time. An unsupported hiker must also prove they didn't "cheat", whatever that exactly means. (there is no definition) On top of that, even with a SPOT, you must prove you travelled a monumental distance. Safety is not the principal concern of the record setter, integrity of the hike is. As mentioned by many, including Matt's friend, why take the chance? On top of that though- why cheat everyone out of a good time? Mainly this applies to LW (doing it to do it), Sly (not sure why), but as a group (for the most part) we all agreed to play along and enjoy the attempt and the discussion. Most not only knew the posts were delayed, but actively avoided talking about where he was. LW went from NO WAY EVER!, to here he is and he'll be done by... Mostly for fun, but how cool is that, even LW thinks he'll do it! Our "meanest" meany is willing to support him. There are a lot of things from the other side of the fence that just landed in your yard, unlike some of the folks in the running community- I think we're good folks and don't need to screw each other over. I think we can also handle it better. Thanks for the discussion, let it continue on. Thanks to all the Moderators, well debated Alligator. Thanks to Mags, for letting folks talk about something that needed to be talked about.

Mags
07-31-2013, 00:43
I normally don't do this, but I think this thread has run its course...

Some of you need to hike more. :)

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTT5Ucyppp_J_dj-3BH47gsOJ7ZXWhxl4pG8e-tALPkkfR_Cy6o