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Just Bill
08-01-2013, 10:42
NOBO vs. SOBO is not a new debate, perhaps one every hiker can understand even better than a record. One could also argue, an April start is a drastically different hike than a May start, when going NOBO. The fact of the matter is; besides simple direction, lots of things affect what makes a hike easier or harder. The only easier hike seems to be some sort of flip flop or Harpers to ??? start. While fact is a strong word, general consensus is that either end of the trail is difficult.
Let’s talk speed though. At sixty days, you can pretty well cherry-pick your perfect season. Weather is little factor, neither is the which end of the trail is easier to build your strength debate. Assume you already have your trail legs. Assume you have your trail toes, and won’t be horribly bothered either way by footing. Assume something else you may not agree with, but seems to hold true for most speedy folks- you are fastest during the beginning of the trip high and when you can “smell the barn” at the finish. You have arrived in shape, and despite getting worn down over the course of the trip; there is a mental boost and near superpowers granted to you to reach the finish. Many of you mention getting shower legs, town legs, beer legs, etc. so I think everyone here can relate to a strong finish- regardless of how for you’ve gone.
In that context then, ignore the start; worry about the finish. When you are at your worst and weakest would you rather be stumbling to Springer or Katahdin? There is a technical debate:
While a NOBO hiker must pass the Whites and Southern Maine at roughly the ¾ point. There is a huge mental boost to clearing that hurdle, perhaps when you need it most. As you move down the home stretch though central Maine things aren’t too bad really. Each peak, although tricky, provides not only spectacular views, but views of the greatest mountain tempting you to reach it. The last sixty miles are pretty well flat, even if footing isn’t great. The pounding downhill’s have eased up. And then there is the finish, the climb to the tableland, and the views, the views, the views.
A SOBO hiker has cleared the wonders of southern Virginia, beat the blues, climbed the Patch, and is treated to the views of the Smokies on the ridgewalk. One last mental lift and soaring ridgewalk treat you well until you head down to Fontana. Other than a few peeks and pokes there are no more grand views, no distant peak drawing you in. The treadway may be smoother, footing surer, but the PUD’s persistant, the descent’s frequent and punishing to a worn body. There is no homestretch for the SOBO hiker unless you count the carrot of a final border crossing to reach Georgia. A crooked tree to sit with nearby and a lonely sign bolted to a tree to mark the final state to cross. A finish on a tree covered top with a view to the south through the trees.
More important though is the mental debate. Focus on the HOME part of the home stretch. JPD grew up in the south, trains on those hills, loves the land. Matt is in similar circumstances. Ward? Who knows, if the record was an accident- then his choice may simply have been dictated by the seasons, the calendar, or some other unknown reason. I think for him, at the time, the trail was his home and it mattered little which way he faced.
I’m certainly not on that list, but I grew up in Chicago. Our family went to the Upper Peninsula for vacations. As one of the older boys I pushed our Scout troop’s high adventures to the Porkies, then to the Boundary Waters. I love the Northwoods, and they are my home. The Climb up Big K was no struggle for me, it was an energizing and thrilling stroll to the top of the land I love.
If I am ever blessed with the opportunity, my preference would not be dictated by terrain, logistics, difficulty, or the thousands of other points to be debated. When you are worn, tired, and physically done, where would you rather be? If I had the chance- I would head for home.
How ‘bout you?

Malto
08-01-2013, 11:33
You needed a "none of the above." Trip logistics would dictate the direction and timing and would be 100 times more important than views, inclines, rocks etc. While I was not on a record run on the PCT, it was a very aggressive schedule which given the trail conditions in '11 became extremely challenging. When I looked at direction and start date the following issues were considered.
1) Snow level in Sierra. Didn't want to get there too early for a NoBo and too late if it was a SoBo.
2) Heat. I wanted to minimize heat in SoCal while not violating item 1.
3) Rain in PNW. August is dry, it gets rainier in Sep and more so in October. wanted to minimize rain.
4) Daylight. I wanted to maximize daylight hours.

I ended up starting NoBo on May 21st after adjusting the start date back a week because of the bad snow year. For that year the plan worked out as well as it could given the conditions. Contrast that last year with Tunahelper. His plan was not well thought out and he ended up abandoning his record bid because he started way too early and hit enough snow in the PNW to make his record bid unachievable.

So bottom line, a record run on the AT would be all about the logistics that enabled me to maximize the miles averaged.

ps - one other thing to consider. On a record run you spend about two weeks in VA. I don't think that is long enough to have the Virginia blues. Likewise, the Rocks in PA are a few day affair, the mountains in Maine and NH are a week. Many of the traditional challenges of a thru hike are very different on a hike of this speed. Duration based challenges are easier, but they are replaced by a number of others.

hikerboy57
08-01-2013, 11:46
dont think the head for home thing makes a difference.the finish line is the motivator.

Just Bill
08-01-2013, 11:55
Thanks Malto- you know I'm no PCT expert, but I agree snow and other conditions make for a totally different arrangement on that trail. AT- I think even at 90 days there may be little difference really? I've thought hard about that 60-90 day pace. To get the daylight your season pretty well leaves you facing the heat in the middle either way. Hot weather folks may enjoy a sobo hike, me as a northerner I'd prefer the cooler finish. I would say heat, and how you want to handle it is the bigger deal on the AT, and on drier years than this concerns with water sources fading as the season drags on. As far as breaking it down into segments and different challenges (I think what you're saying) it is of course relevant. Can't speak from experience at that speed, but I always got a mental boost from crossing a border, something you can do with alarming frequency on the AT in some sections. That's all I meant by the VA blues, for the PCT, you deal with it all the way along, but on the AT I certainly enjoyed the Ding Ding Ding of crossing state lines every few days in the mid atlantic. I think a NOBO hiker would benefit in that regard. Otherwise I agree, at that pace the traditional AT obstacles aren't the brain drain they normally would be.

garlic08
08-01-2013, 13:35
I hiked a 100+ day pace on my first and only AT hike, at age 51. It was not an attempt at a speed hike, just the pace I developed on my PCT and CDT hikes. I was pleased with my NOBO choice and early April start. I enjoyed the long days, the spring bloom, early summer weather, and early July in the Whites. My goal was to get into New England by June and I made it, right at the end of the black fly and mud seasons. The summer heat was much more manageable up there. I had to deal with a couple of late snow storms in the high country in the south, so mid-April will be my perfect NOBO start at my pace if I do it again. Also, I got to hike a day or two with faster NOBOs, so I got just a little of the social aspect.

I am not at all interested in a SOBO hike, because I don't want to hike into shorter days and fall weather. And as Mags says, there's no more dramatic finish to a US trail than Katahdin. I wouldn't want to miss that.

Just Bill
08-01-2013, 15:13
...at age 51. I've read some of you before but I never knew your age at the time of your hike. AWESOME! I hope to be so lucky.

Sly
08-01-2013, 15:27
... there's no more dramatic finish to a US trail than Katahdin. I wouldn't want to miss that.

On the CDT, Mt Taylor was my Katahdin. The walk down was into Grants (the actual finish).

Mags
08-01-2013, 15:52
...at age 51. I've read some of you before but I never knew your age at the time of your hike. AWESOME! I hope to be so lucky.

..and now that Garlic is just up the road in Golden, CO we hope to start hiking together again.

Garlic, let me know what you are doing next weekend! :D

Just Bill
08-01-2013, 16:16
MagGarlic- Would teaming up would make you The Onion. Not a bad deal either way though...:)

Lone Wolf
08-01-2013, 16:22
NOBO is tougher

Meriadoc
08-01-2013, 20:36
If I cared about the record: SOBO
When I'm in the groove at the end of a 30+ mile day a steep climb can throw me out of the groove and slow me down. Also, going to Springer at the end of a speed hike I am certain I could pull off excessively high mileage days by simply going for broke. If I was heading up Katahdin for my final push, I'm not sure I could go as hard for broke. For instance, it's a lot harder to night hike at speed in Maine than in Georgia.

There are ups and downs in NC and GA, but it's pretty easy to maintain a fast pace for long distances there.

If it's for my own PR: NOBO
I would want that exhilaration of a difficult climb as culmination of my speed hike. And because it would be my PR, not a public record, I would probably slack off in the 100 mile wilderness a bit to simply enjoy it.

Regarding excitement level for the push: Georgia I would be excited by going fast to Spring; Maine I would be excited to be climbing Katahdin and tempted to slow down and enjoy the final moments.

Final word: SOBO.

frisbeefreek
08-01-2013, 23:42
SOBO would have been faster for me for 2 reasons:

1) Some of the logistics in Maine are a little more tricky (especially if you are doing mail drops). By starting SOBO, you can nail your resupply timing exactly.
2) Virginia-->Springer is a heavily worn trail. It's easier to pull big miles (how many have done the 4 state challenge?). 24hrs in the Smokies is an option.

As Malto said, logistics matter more than anything. I think SOBO allows you to start late season and avoid the spring rains. You also avoid the crowds.

Personally, I want to see an Eastern Continental Trail record attempt. 5400 miles.

garlic08
08-02-2013, 08:25
MagGarlic- Would teaming up would make you The Onion. Not a bad deal either way though...:)

And I didn't mention my partner, Pickle--together, we are The Deli Duo. He was 63 when we hiked the AT together. He set the pace and he's my role model for staying fit.

We actually met The Onion on his awesome CDT yo-yo (and Francis a week before). It was fun, aromatic meeting. I also tried to keep up with the Onion on the PCT a couple of years earlier--that lasted about two minutes. That was my introduction to speed hiking.

moytoy
08-02-2013, 08:37
Simplify the decision and do it both ways.

Rasty
08-02-2013, 11:05
Simplify the decision and do it both ways.

Like speed records for vehicles.

Just Bill
08-02-2013, 11:11
Just so Lone Wolf and others can rest easier at night...Fastest known time records the speed records on the PCT separately- there is a NOBO and SOBO record. I would have no reason to believe that the AT will be recorded any differently assuming that Matt can beat Ward.

Just Bill
08-02-2013, 11:16
Malto (and anyone interested) Garlic's comment about Tapon reminded me that I read somewhere that he did a NOBO vs. SOBO debate at some point regarding the PCT, the link to that page- http://francistapon.com/Travels/Pacific-Crest-Trail/Why-go-southbound-on-the-PCT

Pedaling Fool
08-02-2013, 11:21
"Perhaps...Discuss it on the home stretch thread, "Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will." Gandhi"

Fair enough. I've come to the conclusion that there are not many people here that really understand what it takes to make/break records and that very much includes me. A lot of this is just talk.

Just because one can do a thru-hike, even a "fast hike" doesn't give them a view into endurance events. That's like saying that everyone that does a cross country cycling trip understands what it takes to ride the Tour de France. BTW, a cross country cycling trip can be ~ twice the distance as the TdF.

Sly
08-02-2013, 11:28
And I didn't mention my partner, Pickle--together, we are The Deli Duo.

Pickle and Garlic in Glacier National Park

23086

Just Bill
08-02-2013, 11:30
Thanks Sly, always nice to put a face to a name.

Just Bill
08-02-2013, 11:39
"Perhaps...Discuss it on the home stretch thread, "Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will." Gandhi"

Fair enough. I've come to the conclusion that there are not many people here that really understand what it takes to make/break records and that very much includes me. A lot of this is just talk.

Just because one can do a thru-hike, even a "fast hike" doesn't give them a view into endurance events. That's like saying that everyone that does a cross country cycling trip understands what it takes to ride the Tour de France. BTW, a cross country cycling trip can be ~ twice the distance as the TdF.
Just gently redirecting you to the other thread, not knocking your opinion. Before I joined this site I spent along time weeding through threads trying to find relevant posts. I'm very exited to be discussing this stuff, even if it's just talk. Just trying to help out folks who will come to this site later to check up on Matt's attempt. One post out of 20 makes for tough research on a topic. Hope nobody feels I'm trying to steal the show, just trying to keep the discussion for the discussion, and the original point of the thread on topic. In addition, I think you're dead wrong. Despite the scale of the endeavor; personal limits and surpassing them is fairly universal. That runner who breaks a PR, the cyclist who pushes their body on a 200 mile trip, or that record breaker- little difference on a personal level, just the level that person is on when they break that limit.

garlic08
08-02-2013, 13:53
...Just because one can do a thru-hike, even a "fast hike" doesn't give them a view into endurance events. That's like saying that everyone that does a cross country cycling trip understands what it takes to ride the Tour de France. BTW, a cross country cycling trip can be ~ twice the distance as the TdF.

Yeah, completely different activities. To keep any activity going every day for multiple months, you need a different approach, and a sustainable pace. As mentioned above, many fast hikers sustain a 26 mpd pace or greater, while carrying a pack, in mountains. I can relate to that pace, can do it for weeks at a time and have fun doing it, but I've never run a marathon and probably never will--I just can't imagine that kind of running. Last summer I rode my first X-C bike tour, the Northern Tier, with a not-too-shabby 80 mpd pace, and likewise am in awe of the TdF cyclists.

What makes those guys different? I agree there's something different in the makeup of top athletes, as Gandhi put so well.

JustaTouron
08-02-2013, 15:53
Simplify the decision and do it both ways.


What is the fastest yo-yo hike?

frisbeefreek
08-02-2013, 16:31
Just occurred to me that one reason SOBO is better is that if you have a Class 4 day on Katahdin (trail is closed), you can postpone your start date, but if you are NOBO, you lose a day.

Sly
08-02-2013, 16:35
What is the fastest yo-yo hike?

Not sure of the time but it wouldn't surprise me if that belong to Ward too.

Pedaling Fool
08-02-2013, 17:12
Just gently redirecting you to the other thread, not knocking your opinion. Before I joined this site I spent along time weeding through threads trying to find relevant posts. I'm very exited to be discussing this stuff, even if it's just talk. Just trying to help out folks who will come to this site later to check up on Matt's attempt. One post out of 20 makes for tough research on a topic. Hope nobody feels I'm trying to steal the show, just trying to keep the discussion for the discussion, and the original point of the thread on topic.No need to worry about my feelings; I didn't think you were knocking my opinion and if you were, doesn't bother me. As for everything past the first sentence...not sure of your point, but ok, whatever...


In addition, I think you're dead wrong. Despite the scale of the endeavor; personal limits and surpassing them is fairly universal. That runner who breaks a PR, the cyclist who pushes their body on a 200 mile trip, or that record breaker- little difference on a personal level, just the level that person is on when they break that limit.I'm not sure what you're saying I'm dead wrong on? Anything I've said does not diminish all of us that are always attempting to break a PR or even best one of our friends in a little competetion -- so yes, in that respect it is universal.

All I'm saying is that unless you've attempted to compete at the top of the pack than you don't really know what it takes.

Setting a PR compared to setting a record amongst the cream of the crop, especially when others are watching -- it just ain't the same thing.

Just Bill
08-02-2013, 18:26
Dead wrong- probably a bit extreme. I suppose I disagree on the concept that we can't relate to the best of the best. Anytime I read a book or blog, or talk with someone it seems that finding, and ultimately, breaking our personal limits is pretty universal. Doing your best, on any level, is universal. It just turns out that their best is better- which is what makes them the best. I've been on smaller speed hike efforts. I can relate to the small things; Mornings I hit snooze and slept in an extra half hour. Meant to push on after dinner but didn't. And other times I have done some of those things. A monumental effort, is just a lot of small efforts over and over. In that sense I think whatever our sport, we can understand the best, even if we aren't. Could I do a fifty mile day? Yes, could I do them over and over like a record breaker? No, but I can understand what it would take. As a tradesman I can read blueprints, as a carpenter I can do some good stuff. I can read the plumbers drawings, understand how it all goes together, even sweat a few joints or install a toilet- but I couldn't do his job. I suppose that's all I'm trying to say, and ultimately even if I never get there- understanding how it's done seems to be a good first step. And that's the stuff I'm excited to talk about.

Pedaling Fool
08-03-2013, 08:37
Yes, we can relate and can really apprecieate the intensity of the endeavor much more than someone that does not hike. And we can talk about it; my comment, "it's just talk", was not an attack on the thread, it was simply disgust in me seeing what I perceive as the "experts" lecturing. But really not much different than listening to an overzealous sports fan of ________.

However, it is important to point out that some "in the know" don't appreciate the intensity. I think we've all heard some thru-hikers trash-talk someone such as JDP, because they were supported and "slept in a motel everynight" so anyone can do that, blah, blah, blah. I know she didn't sleep in a motel, but that's besides the point. Their perspective is dead wrong,:) probably colored by their sensitive ego.



BTW, I'm still siding with a SOBO as a faster hike (for record setters), but there are some exceptions to that rule and frisbeefreek brought up some good points. Someone want to prove me wrong:D;)

Just Bill
08-03-2013, 09:12
Yar- I wish we were all sitting in a bar or around a campfire talking. Lots of limitations like this- everything comes off back asswards.:) I think there are quite a few folks here on the junior varsity team so to speak, including myself. I know I may never make the varsity team or get named all state- but I do really enjoy doing what I can do. I also really like talking to my fellow JV squad members and the occasional Varsity Squad member who stops by. Back on track- SOBO- probably better. I guess the original point of the thread- when you are totally gassed- As Matt Kirk seemed to be in his day 49 post, an uplifting trip through the "eye candy" of Roan helped him out quite a bit. I like the south, but had a vastly different experience there than I did in VT, NH, and Maine. It's my kinda eye candy. Not saying I'd have a real shot, but if I could leave tomorrow I would, at this point it'd have to be SOBO. Next season...I'll probably still be dreaming too. Maybe it's 16 years off, when my son will graduate HS, I'll be 51 like Garlic and my son and I can do it together- by then there will be helium filled packs so it'll be no biggie, lol.