View Full Version : How cold is too cold to use an Alcohol Sotve?
Baby Blue
08-02-2005, 11:01
Pretty straightforward...
I'm planning to be in the Whites in mid September this year, I'm not really sure what the weather is like then and wondering if my alcohol stove (pepsi can type) will work or if I should try a canister type instead. My main concern with the canister is availibility of fuel.
Any suggestions?
I've used my Trangia alcohol stove in temps down to 14 deg F without any problem. And that was with no attempt to keep the stove or fuel warm ahead of time.
Footslogger
08-02-2005, 11:40
My experience is essentially the same as the previous post. Keep your alcohol bottle in your sleeping bag or on your person to avoid it getting exposed to really cold air and you'll be fine. If your alcohol gets too cold it's slow to light but once it's going it will work fine. Be sure and use a good windscreen that contains and focuses all the heat on the bottom of your cookpot.
'Slogger
I have found that so long as you use matches to light the alcohol that it is very easy to use even in the cold - gently touch the flame from the match to the surface of the alcohol and you will get it going. If not using matches use a twig or something similar, dip into the alcohol, light the twig and use it like the match above. Other approaches include keeping the alcohol warm as mentioned in prior posts or the warm it up in the stove by holding the stove with alcohol in it over a lighter/candle for 15-20 seconds before trying to light the stove.
minnesotasmith
08-02-2005, 14:32
Is to use stove fuel that has at least some proportion of an ingredient that is more volatile/has a lower flash point (ignites more easily in cold temps) than does ethanol/isopropanol. That could certainly mean using a commercial stove fuel, one containing a ketone of some kind. Even easier would be to go to the automotive section of China-Mart or the like, and pick up some of the (comes in a yellow bottle) fuel line additive that is mainly methanol, "HEET" (NOT the red "Iso-HEET"; that's isopropanol). If you add enough to make your stove fuel even 5% or so methanol, it will significantly help with cold-weather stove lighting.
Note that methanol is a major poison, even just by contact, so I don't advocate using it in warm weather, and being careful with pouring or otherwise transferring anything containing any of it.
I experimented a couple of winters ago. Alcohol does not vaporize below about 25 to 20 degrees. When the fuel is colder than that, it just puts the match out.
So, if you do plan to use alcohol, and temperatures get down below 20 to 25, then you need to preheat the alcohol in order to get it to light.
Using alcohol in September in the Whites should not be a problem
I've used an alcohol stove at 13k feet in October.
Conditions probably roughly equivalent to what you would see in the Whites in October (minus the altitude. But the temps above treeline exposure and other factors would be the same). I think Sept. in the Whites should be fine.
Winter hiking would be another story, however.
I experimented a couple of winters ago. Alcohol does not vaporize below about 25 to 20 degrees. When the fuel is colder than that, it just puts the match out.
That is why I said to gently touch the flame from the match to the surface of the alcohol - if you just toss the match in the alcohol the flame will go out as you indicate - but by touching the flame to the surface you locally heat the alcohol on the surface enough to get it to start burning and fairly quickly it becomes self sustaining - typically I will however leave the match leaning against the inside edge of the stove so as to keep the match burning for a longer time just to help the stove along.
SGT Rock
08-02-2005, 18:07
That is why I said to gently touch the flame from the match to the surface of the alcohol - if you just toss the match in the alcohol the flame will go out as you indicate - but by touching the flame to the surface you locally heat the alcohol on the surface enough to get it to start burning and fairly quickly it becomes self sustaining - typically I will however leave the match leaning against the inside edge of the stove so as to keep the match burning for a longer time just to help the stove along.
Like HOI, I find it is just a matter of knowing your equipment and how to ues it properly. Use a match or maybe even a small piece of bark- light the bark and touch it to the surface. I've used alcohol below 20 just fine.
Nearly Normal
08-02-2005, 19:27
My trangia works great. In cold weather I put a few drops on the rim and have even put a tea candle under it for a few seconds.
This stove is very well made to last a lifetime. The sealed lid saves any un-needed/used fuel for the next time.
pete
I experimented a couple of winters ago. Alcohol does not vaporize below about 25 to 20 degrees. When the fuel is colder than that, it just puts the match out.
So, if you do plan to use alcohol, and temperatures get down below 20 to 25, then you need to preheat the alcohol in order to get it to light.
Using alcohol in September in the Whites should not be a problem
The flash point (the lowest temperature at which a flammable liquid gives off sufficient vapor to form an ignitable mixture with air near its surface) of alcohol is about 55 deg F. So you're frequently going to have to warm at least the surface of the alcohol to some extent to get it to light. As mentioned earlier, for me what works is dipping a twig into the stove, lighting that and then holding it near the surface.
Youngblood
08-03-2005, 09:03
The flash point (the lowest temperature at which a flammable liquid gives off sufficient vapor to form an ignitable mixture with air near its surface) of alcohol is about 55 deg F. So you're frequently going to have to warm at least the surface of the alcohol to some extent to get it to light. As mentioned earlier, for me what works is dipping a twig into the stove, lighting that and then holding it near the surface.
Kncats,
I found that a preheat plate/ground reflector works well. The alcohol on the preheat plate is easy to get to with a lighter since there is not much of a lip on the preheat plate. It ignites easier and it quickly warms and ignites the fuel in the burner. Mine is made from oven liner and is big enough to protect the surface that the stove is on as well as improve efficiency by acting as a ground reflector for radiant heat. I bent a small lip on it so the small amount of preheat alcohol fuel won't spill out by carefully sizing it and inserting it into the appropriate size pan... which happens to be my cookpot.
Youngblood
I froze my trangia burner, full of S-L-X denatured alcohol (~40% methanol), in a block of ice with only the lid free of ice. The ice was at 0*F - measured. (yes, ice will cool below 32*f).
Unscrewed the lid and lit it with a match using the "touch the fuel" method. Took about 15 minutes to get to 75% output buried in the ice, but it did run - as usual.
So I can assure you that if you have to cook with a trangia frozen in ice, it will work Of course if you remove it from the block of ice it will work even better.:)
Lanthar Mandragoran
08-09-2005, 00:34
I froze my trangia burner, full of S-L-X denatured alcohol (~40% methanol), in a block of ice with only the lid free of ice. The ice was at 0*F - measured. (yes, ice will cool below 32*f).
Unscrewed the lid and lit it with a match using the "touch the fuel" method. Took about 15 minutes to get to 75% output buried in the ice, but it did run - as usual.
So I can assure you that if you have to cook with a trangia frozen in ice, it will work Of course if you remove it from the block of ice it will work even better.:)
Wow... nothing like testing equipment to the fail point... :eek:
smokymtnsteve
08-09-2005, 20:55
The toughest sled dog race in the world...the YUKON QUEST...
all the mushers use alkyhol cookers during that race... even at temps below zero
SGT Rock
08-09-2005, 20:59
The toughest sled dog race in the world...the YUKON QUEST...
all the mushers use alkyhol cookers during that race... even at temps below zero
Not demon alcohol :eek:
smokymtnsteve
08-09-2005, 21:05
yep...that ole alkyhol...we use it in dog food cookers,,,the alkyhol used in the YUKON QUE$T is donated leftovers from the north slope oil industry....they collect the waste alkyhol from partially used barrels and give it to the Yukon quest ..this alkyhol is then available for free to mushers and handlers at all the checkpoints along the trail.
welcome to Alaska...land of FREE alkyhol!
Dances with Mice
08-09-2005, 22:36
yep...that ole alkyhol...we use it in dog food cookers,,,! I've seen pix of those cookers but no good description. How do dog food cookers differ from backpacking stoves, how much fuel do they hold, how much water do they heat and to what temperature?