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Rasty
08-08-2013, 22:48
Is it even remotely possible that a gifted athlete could do a solo unsupported AT thru hike and beat the supported record?

Could one cache food and clean gear in Ammo cans at strategic locations and hike light enough to break the record?

Sly
08-08-2013, 22:56
Could one cache food and clean gear in Ammo cans at strategic locations and hike light enough to break the record?

Technically, I think that would be against the spirit and the "rules" of the recent unsupported hikes.

max patch
08-08-2013, 23:00
I think Rasty just wants to start another WB *****t storm as everyone weighs in if self placed food caches are acceptable in an unsupported hike. :)

Rasty
08-08-2013, 23:07
I think Rasty just wants to start another WB *****t storm as everyone weighs in if self placed food caches are acceptable in an unsupported hike. :)

Wasn't thinking that at all. Stands to reason a self placed cache would be accepted if you can mail yourself supplies currently.

atmilkman
08-08-2013, 23:16
Wasn't thinking that at all. Stands to reason a self placed cache would be accepted if you can mail yourself supplies currently.

If you did it right you could stash every meal and all the water saving all that weight.

max patch
08-08-2013, 23:18
The Official Rulebook specifically prohibits the placement of such caches in an unsupported hike.

Hill Ape
08-08-2013, 23:19
what is the accepted rule? a self placed cache seems unsupported to me. seems a whole lot of effort to go through though. its not like its an easy drive to access all the road crossings in a reasonable amount of time. it would probably take more time to prepare for something like that than to actually do that walk. is the rule that they have to resupply in town? are mail drops allowed? isn't that supported?

Rasty
08-08-2013, 23:25
The Official Rulebook specifically prohibits the placement of such caches in an unsupported hike.

Rule Book?

atmilkman
08-08-2013, 23:27
Rule Book?

Official Rule book.

Rasty
08-08-2013, 23:30
Rule Book?

Official Rule book.

Either book is where?

atmilkman
08-08-2013, 23:31
Either book is where?

Max has it.

Rasty
08-08-2013, 23:34
Either book is where?

Max has it.

Trying to be serious here ATM. I think it's possible if the conditions where right for someone do it. Not looking to be disrespectful or silly. It is a 12 day gap between the two records.

atmilkman
08-08-2013, 23:36
Trying to be serious here ATM. I think it's possible if the conditions where right for someone do it. Not looking to be disrespectful or silly. It is a 12 day gap between the two records.

Sorry Rasty. There is no rule book as far as I'm aware. In my opinion stashing would be the same as mail drop. Completely allowable.

Hill Ape
08-08-2013, 23:50
there is no rule book, there is no record, there are no judges, the entire line of reasoning is lost in light of that. there is only what we as a community accept by general concensus, and we are a contentious bunch. the ATC is the only official body that might care, and they are clear about not tracking that sort of thing. speed hiking is fine, friendly competition is fine, but the whole concept of record breaking, who beat who, to me seems to violate the ethos of the trail. HYOH, if you choose to run thats fine. but that doesn't in any lessen anothers hike. people that hike the trail at a more normal pace don't sit around and philosophize about who did it faster at 4 5 or 6 months. that sort of mentality is a distinctly trail runner phenomenon doot doo da doot da manama

i'm willing to bet there are people who have bested the times of both matt and jenny. and never said a word to soul one about it.

rocketsocks
08-08-2013, 23:52
Alright Rasty, I see where your goin with this...very crafty mixing those apples and oranges....No I'm serious, i'm almost there with ya...just gotta think on it some more....I gotta sleep on this one, well done!

my first thought is yes....yep I said it...but again I gotta think on it a bit more.:-?

rocketsocks
08-08-2013, 23:55
Is it even remotely possible that a gifted athlete could do a solo unsupported AT thru hike and beat the supported record?

Could one cache food and clean gear in Ammo cans at strategic locations and hike light enough to break the record?
Ok, I got it...Yes a solo unsuported could go up against a solo supported and turn in the better time...*


* as long as they are both traveling in the same direction, and the same distance...what say you?

rocketsocks
08-08-2013, 23:57
I take power naps :D in case you were wondering.

rocketsocks
08-09-2013, 00:00
now i gotta go take my walk...later

Rasty
08-09-2013, 00:03
Is it even remotely possible that a gifted athlete could do a solo unsupported AT thru hike and beat the supported record?

Could one cache food and clean gear in Ammo cans at strategic locations and hike light enough to break the record?
Ok, I got it...Yes a solo unsuported could go up against a solo supported and turn in the better time...*


* as long as they are both traveling in the same direction, and the same distance...what say you?

Had to use an asterisk

tdoczi
08-09-2013, 00:05
Wasn't thinking that at all. Stands to reason a self placed cache would be accepted if you can mail yourself supplies currently.

and I say that if you can mail yourself supplies then why cant you give supplies to a friend of yours and tell him where to meet you with them? and further if that would be ok, then why cant you have said friend meet you at the end of every single day? its like theres some mythical unable to be agreed upon completely unclear point at which these things, to some people, for some reason, "cross the line."

Hill Ape
08-09-2013, 00:17
rasty, if they traveled the same distance, wouldn't they end on the same day? so wouldn't the "race" really just come down to who had the fastest pace on the final day?

i'm willing to be serious about this. i'm even willing to say that whiteblaze has become a sort of governing body for all things AT. if we (and by we, i mean yall) came to a consensus, and wrote a "rule book" that would at least be better than the endless nit picking over what does supported actually mean. buts its on yall to be judge and referee, just don't bother me on the trail with your "rules" its the one place and time in my life when i feel like i can leave that behind and live by a different set of principles.

Rasty
08-09-2013, 00:17
Wasn't thinking that at all. Stands to reason a self placed cache would be accepted if you can mail yourself supplies currently.

and I say that if you can mail yourself supplies then why cant you give supplies to a friend of yours and tell him where to meet you with them? and further if that would be ok, then why cant you have said friend meet you at the end of every single day? its like theres some mythical unable to be agreed upon completely unclear point at which these things, to some people, for some reason, "cross the line."

Involving othes is supported.

hobbs
08-09-2013, 00:20
rasty, if they traveled the same distance, wouldn't they end on the same day? so wouldn't the "race" really just come down to who had the fastest pace on the final day?

i'm willing to be serious about this. i'm even willing to say that whiteblaze has become a sort of governing body for all things AT. if we (and by we, i mean yall) came to a consensus, and wrote a "rule book" that would at least be better than the endless nit picking over what does supported actually mean. buts its on yall to be judge and referee, just don't bother me on the trail with your "rules" its the one place and time in my life when i feel like i can leave that behind and live by a different set of principles.

Wouldn't be as much fun..It would be to straight forward..What would we disagree about?

Hill Ape
08-09-2013, 00:35
What would we disagree about?

ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner in the funniest question of the day competition. where oh where to begin in the long standing famous whiteblaze disagreements.

Sly
08-09-2013, 01:08
what is the accepted rule?

Here's an example.


The PCT is usually done in typical thru-hiker style, which we would classify as "self-supported" -- rather than having a dedicated support crew, the hiker may use mail drops, facillities in towns along the way, and the kindness of strangers. Technically, any pre-arranged support such as friends meeting you along the trail with supplies would be considered "supported". Scott Williamson (http://team.inov-8.us/2009/02/scott-williamson.html) and Joe Kisner previously held the record for the fastest thru-hiker-style (which they call "unassisted") trip on the PCT at 71d2h41m, set June 8 - August 18, 2008. Here (http://pacificcresttrail.blogspot.com/2008/08/pair-make-hasty-work-of-pct-trek-with.html) is a brief write-up on their trip.

Rasty
08-09-2013, 01:19
"Normal thru hiker doesnt bury boxes. That makes sense.

Sly
08-09-2013, 01:35
"Normal thru hiker doesnt bury boxes. That makes sense.

If you look at Matt's resupplies, nearly all were directly on the trail. While food caching on the PCT would certainly save some time, on the AT the benefit would be negligible.

Plus, if I'm not mistaken, it would probably be illegal to bury caches in most places along the trail, or leave the containers behind.

Hill Ape
08-09-2013, 01:44
hadn't thought about leaving the container behind, thats a valid point. i'm thinking all proposed rules should align with the LNT ethic

tdoczi
08-09-2013, 06:42
Involving othes is supported.

are postal workers not "others"? is the fact that they aren't friends of yours what makes it ok?

rocketsocks
08-09-2013, 06:44
Had to use an asteriskWell, I didn't have to....oh hell, yeah I did :D

The whole crux of the matter is resupplying food, if one person gets lets say 20 rides into town over the coarse of the hike, and the next person only gets three...that's a pretty big difference and not something that is in their control, and that's probably the biggest game changer, and an area where the playing fields need to be leveled.

Somehow the time away from actual hiking needs to be eliminated from the equation....perhaps a "SPOT" system or GPS could be employed and then only the actual trail time gets tallied.

It's and interesting topic though...still I think given a level playing field, an un-supported could best a supported....but the un-supported would have to be on their "A" Game every step of the way, and have resupply down to a science...wouldn't hurt if all the planets were to align either, maybe even part a few rivers :D

Lone Wolf
08-09-2013, 06:56
Is it even remotely possible that a gifted athlete could do a solo unsupported AT thru hike and beat the supported record?

Could one cache food and clean gear in Ammo cans at strategic locations and hike light enough to break the record?

no..........

rocketsocks
08-09-2013, 07:11
Cool, were poised for a Friday night smack down :D

and so it begins again....

Rasty
08-09-2013, 07:17
Involving othes is supported.

are postal workers not "others"? is the fact that they aren't friends of yours what makes it ok?

Mailing supplies fits the "normal" thru hiker method. I was more suggesting that a pre buried cache would be conceptually similar to mailing drops. The argument that there isn't any tradition of caching along the AT for "normal" thru hikers is valid.

Rasty
08-09-2013, 07:24
Cool, were poised for a Friday night smack down :D

and so it begins again....

No....LW may be 100% correct on this one. Without the ability to stay on the trail 100% of the time it may not be possible.

Malto
08-09-2013, 07:26
OK, I'll play.....

I believe that an "unsupported" hiker (making assumption that self placed caches meets the definition which I don't.) could be competitive with a supported hiker. I see it as having one major trade off. The supported has the flexibility to have any type of supply from food to meds to cleanup to gear nearly instantaneous accessible on the AT. The "unsupported" would have the advantage of flexibility and could squeeze one more mile out and not be limited to stopping at certain points. Depending on the hiker and how well they were able to plan these cache you could significantly close the gap.

I believe the PCT shows this. The PCT unsupported record is currently faster than the supported record. That may change in a couple of days but that has been the case for years. Different trail but I'm not sure there isn't the same relative advantages. (I suspect Anish would have loved to have someone waiting with a days food at Stevens, Rainy and Hart Passes and also at the High Bridge. She carried 5-6 days of food on that last leg. That undoubtably slowed her down a bit.)

rocketsocks
08-09-2013, 07:27
No....LW may be 100% correct on this one. Without the ability to stay on the trail 100% of the time it may not be possible.
I'm really trying to meet ya on this...

get rid of the titles supported and unsupported...and just make it "Time on the trail hiking" problem solved, except logistics of doing such...but in theory???

Lone Wolf
08-09-2013, 07:31
get rid of the titles supported and unsupported...

there's a HUGE difference between the two as is goin' NOBO vs. SOBO

rocketsocks
08-09-2013, 07:33
there's a HUGE difference between the two as is goin' NOBO vs. SOBOyep, then there's that too.

Sly
08-09-2013, 07:44
Call me clueless, I'm still not willing to believe there's a HUGE difference NOBO vs. SOBO.

Using the assumption, south of NH is easier, and quicker, someone could pace themselves through the Whites/Mahoosucs. Trail Dog probably would have had the record if he didn't quit in Vermont.

One of the reasons Jennifer and Matt set records is they had a better game plan. She hiked longer into the day, Matt barely left the trail.

Seatbelt
08-09-2013, 08:22
there is no rule book, there is no record, there are no judges, the entire line of reasoning is lost in light of that. there is only what we as a community accept by general concensus, and we are a contentious bunch. the ATC is the only official body that might care, and they are clear about not tracking that sort of thing. speed hiking is fine, friendly competition is fine, but the whole concept of record breaking, who beat who, to me seems to violate the ethos of the trail. HYOH, if you choose to run thats fine. but that doesn't in any lessen anothers hike. people that hike the trail at a more normal pace don't sit around and philosophize about who did it faster at 4 5 or 6 months. that sort of mentality is a distinctly trail runner phenomenon doot doo da doot da manama

i'm willing to bet there are people who have bested the times of both matt and jenny. and never said a word to soul one about it.
Exactly what I proposed on another thread the other day...only to be "shot down" by those more knowledgable in all things pertaining to hiking records. They say it aint possible.

FWIW, I know a trail runner who has run a large portion of the trail --runs a lot with D Horton, and he could probably break or come close to breaking someone's record. He NEVER talks about his accomplishments--which are many-double ironmans, Death Valley runs, etc. Ya have to pry it out of him.

Just Bill
08-09-2013, 08:25
hadn't thought about leaving the container behind, thats a valid point. i'm thinking all proposed rules should align with the LNT ethic
They do. From Matt's website (although the rules are pretty well the same across the board).

"Self-supported" guidelines that I will follow (Mostly adapted from the writing of Scott "Bink" Williamson):
•Walk into and out of resupply towns to purchase or pick up prepacked and mailed supplies.
•Hike as a backpacker, carrying all food and equipment between resupply towns.
•Follow the official AT route, no detours, road walks or alternates of any kind.
•Do not have anyone follow, or provide support in a prearranged manner.
•Do not get into a vehicle for any reason during the attempt.
•Honestly and thoroughly document the attempt.
•Practice Leave-No-Trace ethics.

Rasty
08-09-2013, 08:36
null

Provided you retrieve the cache container you would theoreticaly still be LNT.

Just Bill
08-09-2013, 08:36
Is it even remotely possible that a gifted athlete could do a solo unsupported AT thru hike and beat the supported record?

Could one cache food and clean gear in Ammo cans at strategic locations and hike light enough to break the record?

Using a food cache would generally violate the spirit of unsupported. HOWEVER- I think we all agree if somebody felt like using a cache system and broke JPD's record- we'd all agree it was pretty bad-ass. There is no rule committee, just a general consensus. I would imagine the consensus would be- they would be awarded with the fastest supported record- but done so in spectacular style.

As far as question one- ABSOLUTELY possible. As Malto mentioned- his name is Scott and he beat a guy named David. It was impossible before Scott did it. Impossible and never are dangerous words. Will it happen next season? Improbable. Will it happen-yes. Did JPD set an incredibly high bar? Yes, but so did Horton.

Rasty
08-09-2013, 08:40
Call me clueless, I'm still not willing to believe there's a HUGE difference NOBO vs. SOBO.

Using the assumption, south of NH is easier, and quicker, someone could pace themselves through the Whites/Mahoosucs. Trail Dog probably would have had the record if he didn't quit in Vermont.

One of the reasons Jennifer and Matt set records is they had a better game plan. She hiked longer into the day, Matt barely left the trail.

One could argue that on a 45 to 58 day run the risk of injury is greater on a NOBO as the body wears down. Easier terrain at the end for a SOBO eases that problem.

tdoczi
08-09-2013, 08:44
Mailing supplies fits the "normal" thru hiker method. I was more suggesting that a pre buried cache would be conceptually similar to mailing drops. The argument that there isn't any tradition of caching along the AT for "normal" thru hikers is valid. no such thing as a "normal thru hiker method."

Rasty
08-09-2013, 08:45
Mailing supplies fits the "normal" thru hiker method. I was more suggesting that a pre buried cache would be conceptually similar to mailing drops. The argument that there isn't any tradition of caching along the AT for "normal" thru hikers is valid. no such thing as a "normal thru hiker method."

Hence the quotations

JustaTouron
08-09-2013, 08:47
Provided you retrieve the cache container you would theoreticaly still be LNT.


Then how about this for a plan. 45 Caches. Each not only with a days supply of food and water, but also a tent(or hammock), stove, change of clothes, sleeping bag, etc.

Granted this would be expensive, but the runner would not have to carry any gear. Afterwards retrieve all the caches

Pedaling Fool
08-09-2013, 08:53
If there's no difference between NOBO/SOBO hike then why do all the people going after the record go SOBO?

Sly
08-09-2013, 09:04
If there's no difference between NOBO/SOBO hike then why do all the people going after the record go SOBO?

All the people? The last two?

atmilkman
08-09-2013, 09:07
Provided you retrieve the cache container you would theoreticaly still be LNT.

A food cache doesn't necessarily have to be buried in the woods. It could be left at a gas station/convenience store that normally has limited supplies.

Sly
08-09-2013, 09:07
One could argue that on a 45 to 58 day run the risk of injury is greater on a NOBO as the body wears down. Easier terrain at the end for a SOBO eases that problem.

Sure one could argue it but it would be idle speculation. Anish just smashed a record on the PCT and the trail is much, much harder at the end NOBO compared to SOBO. And she wasn't slowing down.

Just Bill
08-09-2013, 09:11
If there's no difference between NOBO/SOBO hike then why do all the people going after the record go SOBO?

As we saw with Matt- somewhere around day 50- he was shot. He had a bad day on 49 for sure, better on 50 (because of scenery), on day 56 he flat out said his legs were gone. Perhaps you'd all be interested in taking back up the Home Stretch Poll thread...my basic argument; NOBO vs. SOBO- perhaps the edge goes to SOBO. But regardless at some point you're done in- the only thing that gets you though is your mind and spirit. Regarding your spirit- if you love the land you're passing though- it will love you back and lift your spirits, making the final mental push a bit easier. Matt (until recently) lived in the south. I could be wrong but I noted a lot more "god this is amazing" statements when he was down south in the land he loved. When I'm away from home (the north) I certainly appreciate the beauty of the land, but my spirit really bounces when I encounter woods that remind me of the lands I love best. I hated Georgia, not my kinda woods. But a misty morning and the North side of Blood Mountain was like a trip a thousand miles north to New Hampshire and really put a fire in me at the time. Despite what many folks think, speedy folks are quite dialed in and connected to the land- their mental and spiritual condition is deeply affected by that land. When you're hurting, you wanna run home to momma. When I'm hurting, I visit my Mother, and she always fixes me up.

Sly
08-09-2013, 09:26
As we saw with Matt- somewhere around day 50- he was shot. He had a bad day on 49 for sure, better on 50 (because of scenery), on day 56 he flat out said his legs were gone. Perhaps you'd all be interested in taking back up the Home Stretch Poll thread...my basic argument; NOBO vs. SOBO- perhaps the edge goes to SOBO.

More idle speculation.

Look at Matt's first 4 days, 151 miles vs his last 4 days, which was cut short because the trail ended, 145 miles. Or the 1st week, 261 miles vs the last week, 274 miles.

Both Matt and Jen live in NC and were hiking home.

Just Bill
08-09-2013, 09:54
Lol, it's all idle speculation, but still fun to do. Hopefully we'll hear from some less idle folks in the future. I honestly believe that at some point, at that level, NOBO vs. SOBO overall has less to do with the terrain than logistics, timing (when you can go), and the personal parts of the equation. Even on a short hike, we all tend to get out of the gate strong, lag in the middle, and finish strong. Hikerboy thought it was simply the pull of the finish line; it being enough of a carrot in and of itself. As you say, both were hiking home. Even if there was little more to it than familiarity and confidence over terrain travelled frequently- it's still an advantage. Given the choice, why not take it where you likely need it most.

I'm a fairly spiritual person, a taboo topic I know, but it plays a huge factor in my hiking. Even if you aren't spiritual or religious- we've all had an uplifting day on the trail when confronted with the shear beauty of the woods. In my case, those moments happen more often up North. On any hike- hundreds of small advantages and strategies add up to better performance. There is no one magic bullet. Hiking home, for any and all reasons, is high on the list of advantages you can stack in your favor if possible.

Anish may be a better counter-argument though. As we learn more about her, it'll become clearer. But in her case I think you see a hiker motivated purely by the desire to be something more than herself. She seems to have gone full on trail animal at the end- she could have been hiking in any direction at that point. She'd given herself over to the trail and her personal transformation. More speculation to be sure- but in the case of pure performance and mental fortitude regardless of location- she's the amazing and inspirational new poster girl for that argument.

Pedaling Fool
08-09-2013, 09:54
All the people? The last two?It's more than two people, but I don't know the numbers and ain't going to research it, because I don't want to get too invested in this arguement. I'm not talking about only the record holders, but all that had a chance and attempted, such as The Goat...

Pedaling Fool
08-09-2013, 10:03
Correction: By "The Goat" I meant Speedgoat http://www.irunfar.com/2013/07/2013-speedgoat-50k-results.html

Just Bill
08-09-2013, 10:07
Perhaps regarding the AT- oddly enough- it doesn't need to be complicated. The general consensus among thru-hikers is to go NOBO and start around April. The general consensus is to go SOBO for a record. Could be as simple as that. There are lots of reasons to go SOBO, flip-flop, or do one of the alternative hikes for a traditional thru, but when it comes down to it, most folks do what those before them have done.

Sly
08-09-2013, 10:13
It's more than two people, but I don't know the numbers and ain't going to research it, because I don't want to get too invested in this arguement. I'm not talking about only the record holders, but all that had a chance and attempted, such as The Goat...

Nature Boy?

Sly
08-09-2013, 10:22
Perhaps regarding the AT- oddly enough- it doesn't need to be complicated. The general consensus among thru-hikers is to go NOBO and start around April. The general consensus is to go SOBO for a record. Could be as simple as that. There are lots of reasons to go SOBO, flip-flop, or do one of the alternative hikes for a traditional thru, but when it comes down to it, most folks do what those before them have done.

As far as I know all the early timers, such as Mainiac, David Horton, Warren Doyle and Andrew Thompson all started NOBO. It's only recently the direction changed.

Thru-hikers hike north to hike with spring and to have a longer hiking season. Speed hikers don't need a longer season. It may be cooler temperature wise to start SOBO (in June/July) but NOBO's should be able to start in May with no problems except perhaps less daylight.

As I pointed out with Anish, terrain wise it shouldn't matter, and now that I think of it neither should temperature. (southern CA is hot as hell in June)

Ground Control
08-09-2013, 10:23
Provided you retrieve the cache container you would theoreticaly still be LNT.

but not until they were picked up. Technically, the LNT clause would not have been met until they were retrieved, thus extending the finish time.

jeffmeh
08-09-2013, 10:33
but not until they were picked up. Technically, the LNT clause would not have been met until they were retrieved, thus extending the finish time.

Exactly. When does the clock start and stop? Does setting foot on the trail to plant your first cache start the clock? Does the clock run until the last cache has been removed from the trail?

Omitting the food caches, the unsupported hiker would have to be superior to beat the supported hiker. If they were equal in skill, the supported hiker does less work, and wins.

Sly
08-09-2013, 10:34
Forget retrieval (that was an afterthought) I think you'll find it's illegal to bury caches along the AT.

Ground Control
08-09-2013, 10:38
Forget retrieval (that was an afterthought) I think you'll find it's illegal to bury caches along the AT.
Alrighty, then can we also agree that using non-standard resupply points (like gas stations or trail-side stops that don't typically carry supplies) for stored caches starts to get into the territoty of "supported"? I think the answer to the initial question posed in this thread is "No"

Pedaling Fool
08-09-2013, 10:43
As far as I know all the early timers, such as Mainiac, David Horton, Warren Doyle and Andrew Thompson all started NOBO. It's only recently the direction changed.


That's my perception as well, the question is, Why did they all decide to change directions? I think terrain as a lot to do with it, but I'm sure there are other factors that have been pointed out here and elsewhere. And I really have no idea which takes precedence, but to me I do focus on the peaking issue.


And it's a fair question, Why did Nature Boy decide to attempt a NOBO speed hike?


But I'm done for now, gotta go and set a lifting record at the gym...albeit, it'll on be a PR:D

Rasty
08-09-2013, 10:58
Forget retrieval (that was an afterthought) I think you'll find it's illegal to bury caches along the AT.

I thought Forest Service rules allowed caching with certain restrictions?

Sly
08-09-2013, 11:01
Alrighty, then can we also agree that using non-standard resupply points (like gas stations or trail-side stops that don't typically carry supplies) for stored caches starts to get into the territoty of "supported"? I think the answer to the initial question posed in this thread is "No"

I think Matt's resupply strategy on the AT showed you don't have to resort to such gimmickry. (it's hardly worth the expense) On the PCT such a strategy would certainly save time, but the guidelines have been established. I think any such caches would be considered support.

Rasty
08-09-2013, 11:07
Provided you retrieve the cache container you would theoreticaly still be LNT.


Then how about this for a plan. 45 Caches. Each not only with a days supply of food and water, but also a tent(or hammock), stove, change of clothes, sleeping bag, etc.

Granted this would be expensive, but the runner would not have to carry any gear. Afterwards retrieve all the caches

Get Walmart as the sponsor and just throw away the semi-disposable camping gear. Could work.

Just Bill
08-09-2013, 11:22
Alrighty, then can we also agree that using non-standard resupply points (like gas stations or trail-side stops that don't typically carry supplies) for stored caches starts to get into the territoty of "supported"? I think the answer to the initial question posed in this thread is "No"
Caches are pretty much no-no's for un-supported hikes- even if you place them yourself. But it's not a hard fast rule by any means. Hand delivering a drop box to a fixed location- not an issue. Using a private business to resupply is fine, talking a gas station owner (for example) into holding a drop box for you is fine. The most important thing is honesty- tell people what you plan to do and what you did. That said though- the general consensus at FKT is that if you wish to break someone else's record- you have to break it on their terms and rules. If you want to set a new record, with your own terms and rules- no problem. You just have to realize that it would be acknowledged and recorded as a different record. If Rasty wanted to legally cache food and speed hike the AT, then he wouldn't be beating Matt- he'd be setting a new (different) record. If he beat JPD it would likely would be counted simply as a supported record, Rasty style. Supported is the straightforward catch-all style. The only rule is that you have to hike/run the miles yourself- everything else goes. Breaking the law or violating LNT principals is considered bad style- but not discounted outright. An illegal food cache wouldn't invalidate a record- but it wouldn't make you very popular either.

FKT records personal bests- not records per say. Yes they are referred to as records, but the basic premise stands. Set a new personal best- tell FKT- and if someone wants to challenge your best- they have to do it the way you did it. If you want to say you are better than someone- you have to be better on their terms and hike their hike. If you want to say- hey- look what I did- however you want to do it; then that's what gets recorded. Within reason of course before you folks propose your impending pogo stick speed hike.

What everyone here needs to understand- is that FKT and these "records" simply began as a way for like minded folks to challenge themselves and each other. You saw Matt's finish photos. A handful of folks, including Jen and Brew. No fame, fortune, etc. No rules committee. His record is posted on FKT- if someone wanted to dispute it, they could. If enough folks chimed in and said he didn't do it, it would be removed. As popularity grows, more folks are interested. But it's not that confusing, and it's not even AT centric. Horton, and eventually Scott really shaped the backpacking trail and long distance styles with their PCT efforts. Most folks said- hey- I like your guidelines and I'll use them too. Supported is easy to define. Un-supported gets tricky, but not too bad really. Check out the site. You'll get a feel pretty quick for how things get recorded. Ward's record is actually recorded as a background story. JPD has the fastest overall time, the fastest supported time, and the fastest female time. Andrew Thompson holds the fastest Male supported time. Matt Kirk is now listed as the fastest unsupported time. IF somebody beats his record NOBO, they would hold the overall fastest unsupported time, Matt would hold the fastest SOBO time. http://fastestknowntime.proboards.com/thread/6/appalachian-trail

Ktaadn
08-09-2013, 11:26
I think it is reasonable to say that someone could complete an unsupported hike that is faster than the current supported hike record.

But, you would logically have to say that, that same person could beat their own unsupported time in a supported hike. Unless they refused to or simply didn't want to complete a supported hike, they would be guaranteed to break their own record meaning that the supported hike would still be faster. That's pretty much what JPD did by a wide margin, right?

Yes, I'm making a lot of assumptions regarding weather, trail conditions, and the health of the individual. There is always a lot of luck involved in a successful record.

Lone Wolf
08-09-2013, 11:30
All the people? The last two?

Metzler, Thompson

Kookork
08-09-2013, 11:33
there is no rule book, there is no record, there are no judges, the entire line of reasoning is lost in light of that. there is only what we as a community accept by general concensus, and we are a contentious bunch. the ATC is the only official body that might care, and they are clear about not tracking that sort of thing. speed hiking is fine, friendly competition is fine, but the whole concept of record breaking, who beat who, to me seems to violate the ethos of the trail. HYOH, if you choose to run thats fine. but that doesn't in any lessen anothers hike. people that hike the trail at a more normal pace don't sit around and philosophize about who did it faster at 4 5 or 6 months. that sort of mentality is a distinctly trail runner phenomenon doot doo da doot da manama

i'm willing to bet there are people who have bested the times of both matt and jenny. and never said a word to soul one about it.

You lost me there. I am officially lost by your take of the amount of determination, intensity and plan one should have put to break any of these two great records.

Lone Wolf
08-09-2013, 11:33
As far as I know all the early timers, such as Mainiac, David Horton, Warren Doyle and Andrew Thompson all started NOBO. It's only recently the direction changed.

Thru-hikers hike north to hike with spring and to have a longer hiking season. Speed hikers don't need a longer season. It may be cooler temperature wise to start SOBO (in June/July) but NOBO's should be able to start in May with no problems except perhaps less daylight.

As I pointed out with Anish, terrain wise it shouldn't matter, and now that I think of it neither should temperature. (southern CA is hot as hell in June)
NOBO is tougher for record setters/breakers

Sly
08-09-2013, 11:44
NOBO is tougher for record setters/breakers

Can you at least quantify that statement?

Just saying so doesn't make it so, and I've pointed out the northern end of the PCT is much more difficult than the south, but the record set going south was shattered by a NOBO.

Come on, I know you have it in you! :D

Rasty
08-09-2013, 11:46
Rasty style would be being carried on a Lazy-Boy with Satellite TV/Internet which is fuelled by the effort of those that carry me. KFC 8 piece chicken legs with potato wedges, cole slaw and a Mountain Dew at each road crossing. I think with a properly motivated crew I could beat Minnesota Smiths time.



Alrighty, then can we also agree that using non-standard resupply points (like gas stations or trail-side stops that don't typically carry supplies) for stored caches starts to get into the territoty of "supported"? I think the answer to the initial question posed in this thread is "No"
Caches are pretty much no-no's for un-supported hikes- even if you place them yourself. But it's not a hard fast rule by any means. Hand delivering a drop box to a fixed location- not an issue. Using a private business to resupply is fine, talking a gas station owner (for example) into holding a drop box for you is fine. The most important thing is honesty- tell people what you plan to do and what you did. That said though- the general consensus at FKT is that if you wish to break someone else's record- you have to break it on their terms and rules. If you want to set a new record, with your own terms and rules- no problem. You just have to realize that it would be acknowledged and recorded as a different record. If Rasty wanted to legally cache food and speed hike the AT, then he wouldn't be beating Matt- he'd be setting a new (different) record. If he beat JPD it would likely would be counted simply as a supported record, Rasty style. Supported is the straightforward catch-all style. The only rule is that you have to hike/run the miles yourself- everything else goes. Breaking the law or violating LNT principals is considered bad style- but not discounted outright. An illegal food cache wouldn't invalidate a record- but it wouldn't make you very popular either.

FKT records personal bests- not records per say. Yes they are referred to as records, but the basic premise stands. Set a new personal best- tell FKT- and if someone wants to challenge your best- they have to do it the way you did it. If you want to say you are better than someone- you have to be better on their terms and hike their hike. If you want to say- hey- look what I did- however you want to do it; then that's what gets recorded. Within reason of course before you folks propose your impending pogo stick speed hike.

What everyone here needs to understand- is that FKT and these "records" simply began as a way for like minded folks to challenge themselves and each other. You saw Matt's finish photos. A handful of folks, including Jen and Brew. No fame, fortune, etc. No rules committee. His record is posted on FKT- if someone wanted to dispute it, they could. If enough folks chimed in and said he didn't do it, it would be removed. As popularity grows, more folks are interested. But it's not that confusing, and it's not even AT centric. Horton, and eventually Scott really shaped the backpacking trail and long distance styles with their PCT efforts. Most folks said- hey- I like your guidelines and I'll use them too. Supported is easy to define. Un-supported gets tricky, but not too bad really. Check out the site. You'll get a feel pretty quick for how things get recorded. Ward's record is actually recorded as a background story. JPD has the fastest overall time, the fastest supported time, and the fastest female time. Andrew Thompson holds the fastest Male supported time. Matt Kirk is now listed as the fastest unsupported time. IF somebody beats his record NOBO, they would hold the overall fastest unsupported time, Matt would hold the fastest SOBO time. http://fastestknowntime.proboards.com/thread/6/appalachian-trail

Malto
08-09-2013, 11:50
Can you at least quantify that statement?

Just saying so doesn't make it so, and I've pointed out the northern end of the PCT is much more difficult than the south, but the record set going south was shattered by a NOBO.

Come on, I know you have it in you! :D

naw, it is far easier to pull the one liners out his arse! This is his latest example of of cyber hiker baiting!

Kookork
08-09-2013, 11:51
Is it even remotely possible that a gifted athlete could do a solo unsupported AT thru hike and beat the supported record?

Could one cache food and clean gear in Ammo cans at strategic locations and hike light enough to break the record?

1-Potentially, yes but practically, no.

2- cache of food makes the hike neither unsupported nor supported but a category of its own which does not seem very appealing to follow for me.

Lone Wolf
08-09-2013, 11:52
Can you at least quantify that statement?

Just saying so doesn't make it so, and I've pointed out the northern end of the PCT is much more difficult than the south, but the record set going south was shattered by a NOBO.
post #44 by Rasty quantifies it. the AT ain't the PCT. no comparison. back when Pete Palmer went for the record we talked about him going SOBO. he said the record was set NOBO so that was the way he was goin'. Andy Thompson failed twice NOBO in Vermont and N.H.. he got the record the 3rd time going SOBO.

Lone Wolf
08-09-2013, 11:53
naw, it is far easier to pull the one liners out his arse! This is his latest example of of cyber hiker baiting!

i know more about speed hiking and hiking in general than you'll ever know, kid

Rasty
08-09-2013, 11:58
Can you at least quantify that statement?

Just saying so doesn't make it so, and I've pointed out the northern end of the PCT is much more difficult than the south, but the record set going south was shattered by a NOBO.

Come on, I know you have it in you! :D

naw, it is far easier to pull the one liners out his arse! This is his latest example of of cyber hiker baiting!

Lets be nice. We having a theoretical conversation about what is possible. Don't poke Wolfie! :)

Sly
08-09-2013, 12:15
post #44 by Rasty quantifies it. the AT ain't the PCT. no comparison. back when Pete Palmer went for the record we talked about him going SOBO. he said the record was set NOBO so that was the way he was goin'. Andy Thompson failed twice NOBO in Vermont and N.H.. he got the record the 3rd time going SOBO.

All anecdotes.

Andy failed going NOBO in VT before he even got into the tough stuff. How's that work?

As much as you know about speed hiking you know nothing of the PCT, especially the northern section. It's so remote, has elevation and blow downs galore, dangerous fords, most AT hikers would be scared stiff. :D

Malto
08-09-2013, 12:26
i know more about speed hiking and hiking in general than you'll ever know, kid

Then prove it! You keep posting the one liners with zero data or factual insight. Open up and share some of this immense wisdom you keep talking about. I suspect its there, but you never go beyond the restatement of your original point. Restating the same thing over and over doesn't make it true. And finally, I haven't been a kid for decades though my wife calls me a kid when I ask her and my kids to pull my finger. :0

Just Bill
08-09-2013, 12:28
A bit of advise- pick a trail- then argue direction. Otherwise confussion ensues. As to LW- he is diligently pursuing the Unsupported Posts record, from both directions at once as usual. Best of luck.

Sly
08-09-2013, 12:36
A bit of advise- pick a trail- then argue direction. Otherwise confussion ensues. As to LW- he is diligently pursuing the Unsupported Posts record, from both directions at once as usual. Best of luck.

You can't argue direction when it only makes a negligible difference.

Oh wow. I'm the second most prolific poster and he almost has me lapped! :eek:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/memberlist.php?order=desc&sort=posts&pp=100

Just Bill
08-09-2013, 12:43
You can't argue direction when it only makes a negligible difference.

Oh wow. I'm the second most prolific poster and he almost has me lapped! :eek:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/memberlist.php?order=desc&sort=posts&pp=100
LOL- you solved both issues in the same post! Direction doesn't matter- on any trail really. A smart person makes the choice based upon a hundred factors and plays to their strength- there is no easier direction.
Map Man and Odd Man would be impressed with your investigative skills- The only way to double your number of posts is to argue both sides of any discussion! Statistics speak louder than words.

Ktaadn
08-09-2013, 12:44
You can't argue direction when it only makes a negligible difference.

Oh wow. I'm the second most prolific poster and he almost has me lapped! :eek:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/memberlist.php?order=desc&sort=posts&pp=100

Some people just like to hear themselves....type :p

Crazy Larry #1
08-09-2013, 13:03
Is it even remotely possible that a gifted athlete could do a solo unsupported AT thru hike and beat the supported record?

Could one cache food and clean gear in Ammo cans at strategic locations and hike light enough to break the record?

Only you could do it Rasty!!!!

Rasty
08-09-2013, 13:07
Is it even remotely possible that a gifted athlete could do a solo unsupported AT thru hike and beat the supported record?

Could one cache food and clean gear in Ammo cans at strategic locations and hike light enough to break the record?

Only you could do it Rasty!!!!

I'm a wimp. :D

JustaTouron
08-09-2013, 13:21
I think we have to accept the empirical data. SOBO is faster.

Which is faster the Berlin Marathon or the Chicago Marathon? Have to go with Berlin as that is where the record is.

Lone Wolf
08-09-2013, 13:29
All anecdotes.

Andy failed going NOBO in VT before he even got into the tough stuff. How's that work?

As much as you know about speed hiking you know nothing of the PCT, especially the northern section. It's so remote, has elevation and blow downs galore, dangerous fords, most AT hikers would be scared stiff. :D

i was with Andy when he gave up his attempt. once again, we're discussing the AT. it's tougher NOBO

Lone Wolf
08-09-2013, 13:33
Then prove it! You keep posting the one liners with zero data or factual insight. Open up and share some of this immense wisdom you keep talking about. I suspect its there, but you never go beyond the restatement of your original point. Restating the same thing over and over doesn't make it true.

what exactly do you want to know? and have you done any LD hiking or a thru-hike or done any ultras?

Malto
08-09-2013, 13:36
what exactly do you want to know? and have you done any LD hiking or a thru-hike or done any ultras?

Yes, yes and yes to your questions. I would like to know why you think SoBo is materially easier than NoBo for a speed hike.

JustaTouron
08-09-2013, 13:53
Malto -- without much experience I can give you one reason: Climbing Springer and descending Katahdin is easier than climbing Katahdin. If you go SOBO you climb K and then the clock starts ticking. Should make MEGA about 3-4 hours faster then GAME.

Rasty
08-09-2013, 14:05
Malto -- without much experience I can give you one reason: Climbing Springer and descending Katahdin is easier than climbing Katahdin. If you go SOBO you climb K and then the clock starts ticking. Should make MEGA about 3-4 hours faster then GAME.

Might shave two hours from the animals that achieve these records.

JustaTouron
08-09-2013, 14:09
Might shave two hours from the animals that achieve these records.

Okay fair enough. It would shave about 6 for me. But they do hike a tad* quicker than me.


*Understatement of the year.

Rasty
08-09-2013, 14:28
Some people just like to hear themselves....type :p

I'm number 28! Woo Hoo

Sly
08-09-2013, 14:47
Malto -- without much experience I can give you one reason: Climbing Springer and descending Katahdin is easier than climbing Katahdin. If you go SOBO you climb K and then the clock starts ticking. Should make MEGA about 3-4 hours faster then GAME.


To start/finish SOBO, 4200' descent and a 1200' climb. To start/finish NOBO a 1200' descent, a 4200' climb.

Mags
08-09-2013, 16:25
Come on folks..keep the poo fliniging to PMs.

I don't like deleting posts. OTOH, life is too short [1] to babysit and being the nice moderator seems to get us nowhere lately. :)
Further poo flinging type-posts will go into a black hole.



[1] So am I....

hikerboy57
08-09-2013, 16:41
Malto -- without much experience I can give you one reason: Climbing Springer and descending Katahdin is easier than climbing Katahdin. If you go SOBO you climb K and then the clock starts ticking. Should make MEGA about 3-4 hours faster then GAME.
but you have to climb katahdin first before you even start.ive climbed it four times,for me it took roughly an hour less to downclimb than going up.not a huge advantage.i do thinkk the south is easier sobo than nobo, and once you've got the northeast out of the way, have a much easier go of it than nobo heading into the northeast.

Just Bill
08-09-2013, 17:47
Congrats to Mags! For moderating the poo-storm of replies in this storm of record breaking going on. Your moderation and dedication to the post- despite blurry eyes, fighting the instinct to vomit on your keyboard, and deep desire, (but intense willpower not to), slap the crap out of everyone here- makes you a champion. Quite seriously- Thanks for hosting a good forum and making occasional intelligent conversation possible. You may not be tall, but your fingers are mighty!

On an even more serious note; best of luck to you and your loved ones as you continue to battle the mental condition that forces you to remain a moderator.

Thanks Mags!:clap:jump:dance

rocketsocks
08-09-2013, 18:12
Congrats to Mags! For moderating the poo-storm of replies in this storm of record breaking going on. Your moderation and dedication to the post- despite blurry eyes, fighting the instinct to vomit on your keyboard, and deep desire, (but intense willpower not to), slap the crap out of everyone here- makes you a champion. Quite seriously- Thanks for hosting a good forum and making occasional intelligent conversation possible. You may not be tall, but your fingers are mighty!

On an even more serious note; best of luck to you and your loved ones as you continue to battle the mental condition that forces you to remain a moderator.

Thanks Mags!:clap:jump:dance
Two crushes in one day...damn, you got it bad :D:)



[really ticks me off when I miss a good S*** storm]

Sly
08-09-2013, 18:54
What poo? :-?

Rasty
08-09-2013, 19:07
Speaking of poo. Why is caching not LNT but burying poo is?

Just Bill
08-10-2013, 09:12
Speaking of poo. Why is caching not LNT but burying poo is?

Now we're talking! I agree with you 100% The funny thing is that traditionally (like more than 10 minutes ago) poop was unburied and food cache's were a big part of every wilderness trip. I don't have any LNT issues with food Cache. As mentioned- as long as you clean up after yourself what's the biggie. Obviously you want to store your food so critters don't get at it- one of the reasons it's been banned/outlawed/poo-pooed- is because people didn't get that you may want to prevent wildlife from eating the food you depend on. Not to get Sly and Malto all fired up- but on the PCT a form of cache happens every year as people place water for hikers at various locations. Technically- even Scott Williamson has used cache's to complete his hikes.

You know the one that really gets me (said the crotchety old man); Horse poop. People have to bury it, people have to clean up after their dogs. But horse owners don't even need to get off their trusty steed and shovel it off to the side or anything. Total BS. The only backcountry user actually equipped to handle their pet's (enormous) waste and they aren't required to do anything about it. I poop in the driveway of horse stables whenever I get the opportunity, on the river to river trail in Shawnee I pooped in the middle of the horseman's camp much to the chagrin of said horseman. They says,"What are you doing? I says, "Oh, based upon hiking though twenty horses worth of **** on the last 15 miles of trail we both traveled I thought that we all agreed to **** wherever we wanted from now on. Do you have any drinking water, I was also hoping to pee in that for you too." I hate horse owners.:mad:

Sly
08-10-2013, 09:49
When I first hiked the PCT when water caches were rare, and I never used or depended on them. Second time around, I may have taken water from them, but again didn't depend on them. That would be foolish. They sit on the ground and cause no lasting damage.

Properly buried poo biodegrades, the cathole covered, hopefully forever. The hole is small, it's a necessity.

Food caches on the other hand aren't necessary. Can you seriously imagine if only 50-100 AT hikers started caching food at road crossings? It's a silly argument.

Don't get me going on trail apples. I'm a big proponent of horsey diapers in the backcountry.

Malto
08-10-2013, 10:00
When I first hiked the PCT when water caches were rare, and I never used or depended on them. Second time around, I may have taken water from them, but again didn't depend on them. That would be foolish. They sit on the ground and cause no lasting damage.

Properly buried poo biodegrades, the cathole covered, hopefully forever. The hole is small, it's a necessity.

Food caches on the other hand aren't necessary. Can you seriously imagine if only 50-100 AT hikers started caching food at road crossings? It's a silly argument.

Don't get me going on trail apples. I'm a big proponent of horsey diapers in the backcountry.

agree on the water caches. Food caches have their place, Colters Desert Trail is a great example, but probably not regularly on either the PCT or AT. I have very mixed emotions on horses. On one hand I don't like the mess. I also saw extensive damage caused by a couple of very inconsiderate (but very nice) horse people who hit the PCT in NoCal too early in the season. (There are also very inconsiderate hikers that do the same thing but cause a lot less damage per occurrence. But I also appreciate the fact that many of the trails out west that I love to hike are there in large part due to the horse community helping to build and maintain them. It is that fact that tempers my distaste for tiptoeing through the poo.

JustaTouron
08-10-2013, 10:13
There is are several big difference between food and water cache. 1) carrying 10 days worth of food is not nearly as challenging as carrying 3 days worth of water. 2) your water is very unlikely to create a problem with critters. but one or two people improperly storing their food and there is a nuisance bear issue at that location.

Sly
08-10-2013, 10:17
I'll concede food caches may be necessary on some trails, but not on any of the major trails.

Added: I reread the OP and nowhere did he mention in the 1st post of burying the cache. Without going back to read the entire thread I'm not sure where I got that idea. A well hidden (but not buried) cache would be OK with me but I think it would be against the spirit of setting any records. Since I have no skin in the game (and never will), I'll leave it up to y'all.

PS I'm still almost positive it's illegal to leave food unattended on federal land. IE unattended food drops in the 100 mile wilderness are illegal.

Kookork
08-10-2013, 11:52
I think even if there is no law against cache of food in any of three major trails it does not mean it is not against the spirit of both supported and unsupported record. Type of morally not sound than legally wrong.

A case scenario: A fellow record attempt -er cache food or equipment in 25 different places along the AT and for injury reason he/she stops the attempt in the first few days. There will be no guaranty that all 25 caches will be retracted on time if ever.

For some trails that lack the convenient resupply options of three major trail ,cache seems the only viable option for the time. Not the most LNT but the most practical one or even sometimes the only option. Not a necessary practice on AT , CDT or PCT in my humble opinion.

Mikey Appleseed
08-10-2013, 12:06
How much if any trail magic is allowed on a unsupported hike? Ethically? On a record attempt? Thx.

JustaTouron
08-10-2013, 12:30
How much if any trail magic is allowed on a unsupported hike? Ethically? On a record attempt? Thx.

That would be an interesting question, where do you draw the line.

A) Refuse all trail magic.

B) Do what Matt did: Accept it but do not post your schedule on line so nobody is showing up just for you, all trail magic organic.

C) Do what Anish did: Post your schedule on line.

D) Actively yogi: Not only post your schedule but drop hints about how much you appreciate trail magic.

Let's say you do D. And at one or two points people show up with enough supplies you can avoid walking 3-4 miles into town for resupply. Are you know a supported hiking even though there was no prearranged plan?

Just curious what people think the line is between supported and unsupported?

Rasty
08-10-2013, 12:44
How much if any trail magic is allowed on a unsupported hike? Ethically? On a record attempt? Thx.

That would be an interesting question, where do you draw the line.

A) Refuse all trail magic.

B) Do what Matt did: Accept it but do not post your schedule on line so nobody is showing up just for you, all trail magic organic.

C) Do what Anish did: Post your schedule on line.

D) Actively yogi: Not only post your schedule but drop hints about how much you appreciate trail magic.

Let's say you do D. And at one or two points people show up with enough supplies you can avoid walking 3-4 miles into town for resupply. Are you know a supported hiking even though there was no prearranged plan?

Just curious what people think the line is between supported and unsupported?

BC range seams to be the norm.

Malto
08-10-2013, 12:46
That would be an interesting question, where do you draw the line.

A) Refuse all trail magic.

B) Do what Matt did: Accept it but do not post your schedule on line so nobody is showing up just for you, all trail magic organic.

C) Do what Anish did: Post your schedule on line.

D) Actively yogi: Not only post your schedule but drop hints about how much you appreciate trail magic.

Let's say you do D. And at one or two points people show up with enough supplies you can avoid walking 3-4 miles into town for resupply. Are you know a supported hiking even though there was no prearranged plan?

Just curious what people think the line is between supported and unsupported?

Your resupply plan wouldn't alter in an of the scenarios in most cases. Anish for example had to leave Snoqualamie with enough food to get her to the border. I doubt she carried less betting on the chances of receiving trail magic. So from a logistical standpoint I'm not sure it's as much help as it appears. As for your scenario laid out at the end. Someone would have to give you massive quantities of food to avoid a future resupply. I suspect she was eating north of 6000 calories per day. At an average 3 day resupply, which is likely close to what she did, that would be 18000 calories. If that happened then it would violate the spirit of the "Williamson rules" which were to partake in trail magic that was avalible to all hikers. Not sure how many hikers walk out of a feed with 18000 calories.

one last point. there is no question that Anish because of her keeping a current and detailed blog received way more "random" trail magic than I did on my PCT thru. I also have no doubt that Scott also was the beneficiary of extra help as well. (Scott even gave her cookies, how many hikers did he do that for?). While this helps the morale a bit and likely gets a few extra calories in these events also will cost time. Not sure which is the more precious commodity on a hike such as this.

Mikey Appleseed
08-10-2013, 12:59
Lets just talk of the one pizza! 30 miles from the border! Im sure she adjusted the food weight in her pack after tanking up! And from pics ive seen, this is high calorie goodness that they specialized for Anish! Every place she met an angel her pack weight must have been altered! Its just sad, I feel she was duped by Scotts past hikes, which I understand may have included cubes of butter! Lots of calories Malto! And small...For a gal bent on ethics, seems kinda relaxed on others...I still remain in awe of the feat, and I will add that there was almost zero snow this year/asterisk....

Malto
08-10-2013, 13:11
Lets just talk of the one pizza! 30 miles from the border! Im sure she adjusted the food weight in her pack after tanking up! And from pics ive seen, this is high calorie goodness that they specialized for Anish! Every place she met an angel her pack weight must have been altered! Its just sad, I feel she was duped by Scotts past hikes, which I understand may have included cubes of butter! Lots of calories Malto! And small...For a gal bent on ethics, seems kinda relaxed on others...I still remain in awe of the feat, and I will add that there was almost zero snow this year/asterisk....

I get the overall point. There is a huge gray area that spans between supported and unsupported. That won't change until someone hikes and declares that they will take NO trail magic at all and this becomes the defacto standard for unsupported speed hikes. It would not surprise me if that isn't where the multiple debates lead.

it is interesting because in spite of the earlier debates about Matt's secrecy he appears to have escape the controversy of the PCT hikers. (It sounds like its getting pretty nasty on Facebook.) I guess when there millions in endorsements it is to be expected.

JustaTouron
08-10-2013, 13:22
it is interesting because in spite of the earlier debates about Matt's secrecy he appears to have escape the controversy of the PCT hikers. (It sounds like its getting pretty nasty on Facebook.) I guess when there millions in endorsements it is to be expected.

Matt's "controversy" is NOBO vs. SOBO.

max patch
08-10-2013, 13:24
it is interesting because in spite of the earlier debates about Matt's secrecy he appears to have escape the controversy of the PCT hikers. (It sounds like its getting pretty nasty on Facebook.) I guess when there millions in endorsements it is to be expected.

Details????

Sly
08-10-2013, 13:25
Matt's "controversy" is NOBO vs. SOBO.

Not really. Matt has hiked his hiked and no one can take that from him. The controversy is between Lone Wolf and some others that appear absolutely positive NOBO is harder than SOBO and a few that feel there's no difference, or not enough difference to make a hill of beans.

JustaTouron
08-10-2013, 13:27
Not really. Matt has hiked his hiked and no one can take that from him. The controversy is between Lone Wolf and some others that appear absolutely positive NOBO is harder than SOBO and a few that feel there's no difference, or not enough difference to make a hill of beans.

I should have included a smiley in my post.

Sly
08-10-2013, 13:28
I get the overall point. There is a huge gray area that spans between supported and unsupported. That won't change until someone hikes and declares that they will take NO trail magic at all and this becomes the defacto standard for unsupported speed hikes. It would not surprise me if that isn't where the multiple debates lead.

it is interesting because in spite of the earlier debates about Matt's secrecy he appears to have escape the controversy of the PCT hikers. (It sounds like its getting pretty nasty on Facebook.) I guess when there millions in endorsements it is to be expected.

Well we have Mikey here, who's butthurt over the trail angel thing and Karen Dawn on Facebook who's Josh's girlfriend and feels slighted.

Like I mentioned on another thread, Anish could have finished without any assistance or trail magic, Josh couldn't.

Sly
08-10-2013, 13:30
I should have included a smiley in my post.

Not to worry. :)

Mikey Appleseed
08-10-2013, 13:32
On the PCT, trail angels are coming out of the woodwork this year and last! That "rule" is outdated! This is a trend, it seems unfair to the past record holders and attempters, but cant change it, but we can ajust our thinking. In the days of Eric Ryback, a trail angel meant you were dead! lol! If I called myself self supported, id stand behind it. I understand her anger, just following a set of rules that are unclear, but common sense tells me there was a vast amount of support for a not supported hike. Im done with it...Even though Scott hiked in the late summer of 2011, there was still way more snow than the hikers faced this year, but that's how it gos!

Malto
08-10-2013, 13:45
Details????

Go to Anish's Facebook page and look through the comments. I haven't seen Anish or Josh join the fray but their "supporters" sure are. There are references to debates raging elsewhere as well. In a way it's silly, both accomplished a great feat ( as did Matt) and I think most people are in awe of all these efforts. We can let the next generation record setter refine the rules further.

Sly
08-10-2013, 13:56
Details????


Go to Anish's Facebook page and look through the comments.

For instance...


@Karen Dawn, you've disgraced both Josh and Anish's efforts. I vote you shut you're pie hole until after you've walked the PCT in two months. Maybe after you tried it both ways you could explain how they are not that different. This is supposed to be a celebration and you brought a bowl of turds.

Mags
08-10-2013, 14:01
I
PS I'm still almost positive it's illegal to leave food unattended on federal land. IE unattended food drops in the 100 mile wilderness are illegal.

Depends on the area. Caches are legal in some NPS/BLM/USFS units.

Posted this earlier:


Using some quick Google Fu, I found this blurb from this site: http://www.nps.gov/grba/parkmgmt/bac...egulations.htm (http://www.nps.gov/grba/parkmgmt/backcountry-regulations.htm)

"Caching of food and water supplies in the backcountry for use on extended backcountry trips is permitted All caches must be clearly marked with a date when they were deposited. Unmarked caches or caches left in excess of 30 days may be removed by park staff."

Seems caches are legal at least in some areas...just pick it up when you are done..AND (very important) call the local office first. :)

max patch
08-10-2013, 14:05
LOL supported versus unsupported with a touch of veganism to keep it interested. A lot of those commenters would fit in here perfectly, someone should send invitations to them to come join WB. :)

Rasty
08-10-2013, 14:16
@Karen Dawn, you've disgraced both Josh and Anish's efforts. I vote you shut you're pie hole until after you've walked the PCT in two months. Maybe after you tried it both ways you could explain how they are not that different. This is supposed to be a celebration and you brought a bowl of turds.
For instance...

At least cache the turds! :)

Rasty
08-10-2013, 15:54
Can trail magic ruin a record? Can a slice of Pizza ruin the hike? Does it make a difference if it's Chicago style or NY style Pizza? So many details!

Let us assume that you picked up 12 pounds of food for the next 4 days hiking and some "Trail Angel" gives you a 3 pound Deep Dish Chicago Style Pizza (Blasphemy by the way), could this potentially slow you down just enough by having to carry but not consume 3 pounds of food for 4 days. Would the 1 pound NY Style Pizza be better "Magic" in terms of taste and energy used in carrying uneaten food?

max patch
08-10-2013, 15:58
The NY pizza would get eaten immediately and wouldn't be carried. The Chicago pizza would be like the can of root beer someone mailed me (seriously) - thrown in my pack and consumed about 80 miles later.

Just Bill
08-10-2013, 16:05
As a Chicagoan- Deep Dish all day. Worst pizza I had in my life was in upstate New York. White bread dough, ketchup (had to be), and Kraft American cheese. As to the other stuff- http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?96323-PCT-Female-FKT-Attempt-Anish-the-Ghost&p=1515018#post1515018 said it there.

Rasty
08-10-2013, 16:08
As a Chicagoan- Deep Dish all day. Worst pizza I had in my life was in upstate New York. White bread dough, ketchup (had to be), and Kraft American cheese. As to the other stuff- http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?96323-PCT-Female-FKT-Attempt-Anish-the-Ghost&p=1515018#post1515018 said it there.

Upstate NY is almost Canada? Might as well have been Springfield Illinois!

Just Bill
08-10-2013, 16:09
Upstate NY is almost Canada? Might as well have been Springfield Illinois!
A sensible reply!