To hang, or not to hang? Food bag, that is. [Archive]

Big Dawg

08-03-2005, 18:29

I've recently read threads on bear bagging, etc. Plenty of opinions. In my 314 AT miles, I've hung my food approximately half the time, the latter half, that is. I've never had a food raid, but heard of plenty of raid stories. I didn't really think about it much when I first started the AT. As I've tried to lighten the load/pack, I've considered leaving my 7oz hanging "kit" behind. I've been monitoring Andrew Skurka's C2C trek across the country (now finished), & noticed no mention on his gear lists of rope/hanging device & read of no raids from his food bag. Hmmmmmmm :-? Makes me wonder if I really need to lug that 7oz along the trail? Any more thoughts???

jackiebolen

08-03-2005, 19:27

I didn't hang and didn't even carry rope after the first couple hundred miles on the AT. Not saying it's right...

Footslogger

08-03-2005, 19:47

Why tempt fate ?? Hanging a food bag isn't that big of a deal and it just makes sense.

But hey ...if you don't feel it's necessary, go for it. Just do me a favor. If we're ever in the same campsite and you decide to sleep with your food, please keep your distance so that you're the only one who gets victimized.

All it takes is one varmint or bear incident and you'll wish you'd hung a bag.

Nuff said ...

'Slogger

TakeABreak

08-03-2005, 20:03

While it not always necessary if you are not camping in an area that is not heavily used(permanent campsites, shelters or well used campsites) it is a good idea, because you never and as said above why tempt fate.

If I may add on what footslogger said, if you do used a highly used campsite, you have very good chance that there are resident mice, raccoons and bear that come by looking for a snack.

So if you use one of these regular site, please don't think that you will be intitled to other people's food once yours has been comtaminated by mice. I shared once with a person because they were to lazy to hang their food, after their entire food bag had been comtaninated, it won't happen again. ( not say I would not share with someone in a true emergency, just thos ewho refuse to follow good logic)

Remember mice don't just take one itme and munch on it, they have a taste of everything, comtaminating everything in the bag.

TakeABreak

08-03-2005, 20:08

I didn't mean to sound so rude in my above post or demeaning, I just had bad experiences with people who don't think that hanging food is important or worth their time. It is also why there are so many problems with mice, rodents and bears on A.T. these days.

Youngblood

08-03-2005, 20:19

Lone Wolf

08-03-2005, 20:22

I only hung food when I stayed in shelters, which I will not do anymore. I have never hung food while staying in my tent. I always sleep with it.

Dances with Mice

08-03-2005, 20:36

Heck, I've heard of varmits getting to food bags that were hung from bear cables and from bear lines away from campsites. I don't think there are any guarantees but you can improve your chances... by a lot.I've just been passed this note from the Georgia Blue Ridge flying squirrel population: They LOVE the cable systems installed at all the GATC shelters. Couldn't be easier! Each night all this food is being hung right up at their level! They coast in at night and eat their fill, then either raccoons or the Flying Wallenda Mice Family get the blame. It's like a win-win-win situation for them. They appreciate all the good work, keep hanging those food bags high!

Nobody ever sees flying squirrels. They're nocturnal and really good at not being seen. It's a talent they've developed in order to keep being flying squirrels.

BigE

08-03-2005, 21:52

I'm hiking the SNP from south to north next week and I can ASSURE you that I'll be hanging mine. I've been hiking around SNP since about '73, and I have never seen so many bears as I have this year. All you have to do is read some of the journals of the hikers that went through the park this year and you'll have no shortage of varmint/bear/food stories. One guy was at Hightop hut in June, got there late in the afternoon and set up a tent. He left his stuff sitting next to the tent and went down to the spring (it's still daylight mind ya) when he got back a bear was rippin' into his stuff and ran off with his water bottle. He found the bottle up the trail the next day with holes all in it - even took a picture of it. It's easy enough to hang it, and I still feel manly afterwards ;-)

=e=

fiddlehead

08-03-2005, 22:44

WHen i first decided to hike the JMT (1990) i went and talked to Cindy Ross who had just hiked it a year or two before to find out about potential differences from the AT. The first thing she said was about hanging food. She said that if you do it perfectly (balance method with no way to grab the rope except with a hook attached to a walking stick) the bear would still most probably get your food but you would have some time to scare it away if you slept very near and kept a hand full of rocks nearby for that purpose. WE practiced at home and did everything she said.
On about our 3rd night camping, after hanging our food in this manner, we were talking with some other hikers who were admiring our system. But then we realized that we were the only ones hanging our food. We asked them about it and they all said they just sleep with their food. We slept with our food from then on.
A few years later, while hiking the PCT, all those who hung their food (in our group) had in stolen by bears. All those who slept with their food, didn't have a problem.
A few years later, while hiking the CDT, i entered the Bob Marshall wilderness by myself and was a little concerned with all of the grizzly bear stories. So, i hung my food away from my tent (went by the book in other words) Well, i didn't like being in a section that is 150 miles between resupply and not knowing if my food was being stolen or not until morning. So, when i met a ranger who had been there for many years, we talked about this and she said: "off the record, i sleep with my food" so that settled it for me, i sleep with my food except in Nat. Parks where i don't believe the bears to be normal. I mean, they are not afraid of humans in Nat. Parks and that's not normal. So, when in the smokies, or shenendoahs, i hang. In Yosemite (i've done the JMT 4 more times since that 1st one) I camp where no one else camps and have never been bothered. This sometimes means right at treeline or stealth camping in a remote location.
So, i think common sense is usually better than going by the book on these things!

minnesotasmith

08-03-2005, 22:45

Nean

08-03-2005, 23:00

Of all the bear stole my food stories I've heard, they'd lost their food 1 of 2 ways. #1 way: bear bagging #2: food left unattended. Out west in the high Sierra they banned bear bagging for that reason. Trash, food scraps, spills, and unattended food attract the rodents, etc. Unless they raised many of the bear poles in SNP those things are worthless, no, inviting to bears. I don't sleep with my food cause I'm brave, I do cuz I hungry.

Sly

08-03-2005, 23:22

I also slept with my food in the Bob. On a little advice from Nean, I triple bagged it. A little scary at first, but in 5 minutes I was sleeping, snoring away!

Like Fiddlehead the only place I hang or use bear boxes in NP's where such food storage devices are provided. That said when I do the JMT next month, I'll probably rent a canister only beacuase I don't want to get a ticket and I think they've expanded the requirements.

BigE

08-03-2005, 23:33

I'm following this thread with great interest to say the least - since I'm heading out this Saturday. I certainly respect all of these opinions especially since I know that a lot of you folks have a lot more trail experience than I do, but I tell ya - I just can't see sleeping with what that bear's after right under my nose! I don't think I could sleep knowing that what he's looking for is in my tent. Then I read stories like <a href="http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9741">this post</a>. If a bear steals my food off of the pole - well that would be unfortunate. If a bear rips a gaping hole in the side of my tent (and maybe catching my arm or leg in the process) to get to the smellables in there, that's a little more than unfortunate. I just can't imagine having food in my tent and slepping at all - but I admit that may be the "rookie" in me. I'm really looking forward to this section hike. Out of all the things one needs to consider before taking off, there are 3 that are at the top of my mind: 1. water 2. lightning 3. bears I'd like to think I could have some proactive influence on at least two of those items ;-)

=e=

Sly

08-03-2005, 23:38

Big E do what you thinks best and you're most comfortable with. If you insist on hanging food and there are no food storage devices provided try using the PCT method. It's not only one of the easiest, it also has the best chance of working.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bear_bag_hanging_technique.html

BigE

08-03-2005, 23:40

Thanks Sly -
I'll check that out.

=e=

Alligator

08-04-2005, 08:54

Hey, that was an excellent link Sly. I'll try that one. It looks like using the PCT method gives a bag height roughly equal to 1/2x(ht branch-max arm ht of hiker) + max arm ht of hiker. In fact, you could go a step further and tie a loop beneath the twig and coil the remaining rope up, eliminating hanging cord. Then you would need a stick to snag the loop.

Footslogger

08-04-2005, 09:32

In a lot of forested areas out west the trees are all conifers and have no suitable branches over which to throw a line. I ran into this situation for the first time years ago when hiking in northeastern New Mexico. The back country rangers there showed me a method using 2 ropes and a small caribiner. You throw each of the lines over the top of 2 evergreen trees that are about 15 - 20 feet apart. You secure the caribiner to the loose ends of the lines between the trees. Attach your food bag to the caribiner and then then pull on the outside ends (in alternating fashion) of each line until the food bag is suspended the desired height off the ground between the two trees and tie off the lines.

This method does require 2 lines (the ones I carry are about 40' each and are 1/8" in diameter) but still only the single key chain style caribiner. I have used this method exclusively since relocating to Wyoming and have never had a problem. Carrying the extra length of line doesn't bother me and if not needed for hanging food has often come in handy for other uses in my campsite.

I have personally had only one incident involving a raided food bag. It was in the 100 Mile Wilderness. The bag was hung over a tree branch but rather near a shelter. The bag itself was too close to the actual branch and a small animal was able to walk out and drop down onto the bag and have a snack at my expense. Lesson learned ...allow the bag to sit several feet below the branch. That said, I have personally witnessed bears on multiple occasions trying to shake food bags loose from trees. I'm a bit doubtfull that a bear who is so intent on getting at a food bag would hesitate going into a tent and snatching it from under a hiker.

Like I said earlier ...I don't believe in tempting fate. Carrying the necessary materials and hanging a bag at night is a small price to pay for peace of mind. In the end, even if my food bag is mangled or missing in the morning, I'd rather walk out of the woods on an empty stomach than take my chances with a hungry, curious and aggressive bear.

'Slogger

Big Dawg

08-04-2005, 09:41

I appreciate all the great responses!! :)

soulrebel

08-04-2005, 09:51

Just curious, Does anyone use Odor Proof Sacks? Are OP sacks even effective? Cuz this year that's what I'm trying -- inside a silnet bag using the PCT method...

I've always hung my food bag/hid it in a car/ or buried it. And a few times I've slept with it... The only method that I knew was 100% was the car... Anyone slackpack a vehicle storage system? :)

Footslogger

08-04-2005, 10:01

[QUOTE=soulrebel]Just curious, Does anyone use Odor Proof Sacks?
====================================
Never have ...and I'm interested in your experience. I hang my regular silnylon food bag and inside the bag I have everything in freezer strength ziplocks.

'Slogger

soulrebel

08-04-2005, 10:16

http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Stuff%20Sacks/Dry%20Bags/Watchful%20Eye%20Designs%20-%20O.P.%20Sak/Andrew%20Priest/Field%20Report/

just found this review,

I plan to run a similar test on a shakedown trip-- I'll do open food scraps, ziploc'd scraps, Op sak scraps. Leaving them on the ground...

Footslogger

08-04-2005, 10:23

I plan to run a similar test on a shakedown trip-- I'll do open food scraps, ziploc'd scraps, Op sak scraps. Leaving them on the ground...======================================
That'll be a very interesting test of the OP sack effectiveness. Please share your results after that trip.

Thanks in advance ...

'Slogger

Youngblood

08-04-2005, 10:32

I only hung food when I stayed in shelters, which I will not do anymore. I have never hung food while staying in my tent. I always sleep with it.
Do you worry about mice chewing their way into your tent to get to your food?

Lone Wolf

08-04-2005, 10:44

No. 18 years sleeping in a tent and never had a mouse or other critter chew thru.

Alligator

08-04-2005, 10:45

No. 18 years sleeping in a tent and never had a mouse or other critter chew thru.
The women don't beat down my tent door either.

Youngblood

08-04-2005, 10:47

I finished a section hike on the AT from Neels Gap to Dick's Creek Gap about 10 days ago. At the shelter at Low Gap, I had my food bag raided by a flying squirrel. I went outside the shelter at about 0500 to take a leak, and with my headlamp saw something on top of my (properly hung on bear cables) foodbag. It was small and very skinny, and practically flew away when I waved my light at it. My food bag had a quarter-sized hole in it. A Hershey's miniature chocolate bar and a blueberry whole-grain breakfast bar are what it chewed on. This is the only varmint/food bag encounter I've had on the AT with bear-cable-hung food so far.Okay, so are you saying not to pack Hershey's miniature chocolate bars or blueberry whole-grain breakfast bars or to just not pack bars in general? :banana Flying squirrels huh! I had heard tales of varmits getting to the food bags on the cable system and thought it was mice climbing past the 'spinners' that had rusted to the point that they didn't spin. I would not use the cables that the spinners didn't move freely on or just rely on 'S' hooks that bears could shake the cable and get the food bags to drop off. It worked for me, yeah, right... maybe I was just lucky the flying squirrels didn't choose my pack or maybe the mice still get past those rusted spinners and the flying squirrels make raids and the bears shake the cables.

Makes one wonder if some of these critters got more sense than some of us. Sometimes this is just some sort game, sometimes it is survival.

Thanks for the heads up about the squirrels. One last poke, did he wear a little blue avaitors cap like this: http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/r/rockymoose.htm ?

Youngblood

Youngblood

08-04-2005, 10:50

Oh, and I got to ask... did you see this character near by: http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/b/bullwinkle.htm ?

Nean

08-04-2005, 10:56

They have to smell it to want it. I keep my food in ziplocks and divide B/L/D into big ziplocks. I've never had any animal of any kind mess with my foodbag- anywhere; therefore, I don't worry. Some do and should hang there food if only for piece of mind. This subject and water filtering are much the same- personal choice. Do whatever makes you happy:clap within reason of course:eek:

kyhipo

08-04-2005, 16:33

i rarely hang my food up sometimes at shelters but rarely i stay in them anymore,i personally like the food boxes in bear country:dance i know many people who hang them in shelters and have seen mice get to them as well .
I usually sleep with mine out west inpaticular there where many bears :-? maybe i need to think more clearly on this subject and maybe invest in a bear cannister but who would come and visit me at night:) ky

DLFrost

08-05-2005, 01:34

Teatime

08-05-2005, 02:59

I seem to recall reading about someone using Mothballs to deter pests while on the trail, especially in shelters and placed around the tent. I havn't personally tried it but it sounds like it could be effective. Like some others, I always hang my food and keep B/L/D in seperate ziplock freezer bags. This has worked well for me so far.

Sly

08-05-2005, 07:37

In fact, you could go a step further and tie a loop beneath the twig and coil the remaining rope up, eliminating hanging cord. Then you would need a stick to snag the loop.

The beauty of the PCT method is that you don't have to go through that trouble. Bears and animals can't do anything with a loose rope to dislodge the food.

MOWGLI

08-05-2005, 07:55

I seem to recall reading about someone using Mothballs to deter pests while on the trail, especially in shelters and placed around the tent. I havn't personally tried it but it sounds like it could be effective.

Mothbals are toxic. Why anyone would carry them or handle them on the trail is beyond me. I don't know what kind of pests people are trying to repel. If you don't like mice, my advice is to avoid shelters.

justusryans

08-05-2005, 08:21

I think I would rather have to deal with mice than have all my gear smell like mothballs. ugh!

Alligator

08-05-2005, 08:41

The beauty of the PCT method is that you don't have to go through that trouble. Bears and animals can't do anything with a loose rope to dislodge the food. I wouldn't think that they would, but the little buggers can be downright creative. Why one time I saw this momma bear and her cubs form a pyramid to get some acorns, so we shouldn't clue them in with dangling threads.

Just kidding. But I have had mice, snowshoe hares, and deer go into my tent to get stuff. True story. A deer at Glacier NP stuck its head under my vestibule and stole my hat. One of my hiking buds (different tent) happened to be on an early morning bathroom run when he saw this deer meandering through the meadow with my hat. My brave friend confronted the deer, who fled. About 1/4 mile later, the deer dropped the hat. We are confident it was the same deer who the previous evening, boldly walked up to our drying line and robbed my hiking shirt for the salt. The shirt was also recovered.

stupe

08-05-2005, 11:07

There's another reason for hanging food other than to prevent animals from eating it. When a bear gets food at a campsite or shelter, it is smart enough to come back for more and become's a problem bear. We all know how problem bears are dealt with. A bear was recently killed at High Point, NJ because it was so fearless of humans. It got that way from contact with people and their food.
If you can't take a few minutes to hang your food in bear country, maybe you should have stayed home.

kyhipo

08-05-2005, 16:16

well stupe I cant wait for my next hike on the AIT :dance maybe i will bring a rope ky

Sly

08-05-2005, 19:49

It got that way from contact with people and their food.
If you can't take a few minutes to hang your food in bear country, maybe you should have stayed home.

Bear bagging isn't a guarantee.

I'd prefer not to leave my food unattended and I don't know of one thru-hiker that sleeps with their food ever losing it to a bear. One reason may be that the bear most likely knows your there and doesn't want a *human* encounter.

Lone Wolf

08-05-2005, 19:51

Sly speaks the truth.

wacocelt

08-05-2005, 19:55

The only critter I've had sniff around my tent was a skunk while I was stealth camping in Andover. That was also the only time I've actually been scared of an animal in the woods.

Youngblood

08-05-2005, 20:33

The only critter I've had sniff around my tent was a skunk while I was stealth camping in Andover. That was also the only time I've actually been scared of an animal in the woods.
I thought the smell kept skunks away from thrus. :banana How you doing Chris?

Youngblood

Frosty

08-05-2005, 21:48

Bear bagging isn't a guarantee.

I'd prefer not to leave my food unattended and I don't know of one thru-hiker that sleeps with their food ever losing it to a bear. One reason may be that the bear most likely knows your there and doesn't want a *human* encounter.I think there are "rules" to bears and other animals when it comes to things like food.

If you possess the food, the bear is less agressive in trying to get it, whether the food possesser is a human or another bear. It will fight for it IF it seems to be an easy thing to do, but if the owner of the food seems inclined to fight to retain the food, the bear figures it is easier to get more food that get into a fight for it. If the food is not possessed (as in hung up) then the bear is more willing to fight for it.

And once the bear gets possession of "your" food, the rules change immediately. Now YOU are trying to get HIS food, and you are going to have to fight for it. Good luck with that one unless you are armed.

That is why I think that people who keep food with them AND are willing to fight to keep their food make out okay. This of course doesn't work with polar bears or predatory grizzlies who see you yourself as dinner. Whatever food you have is just icing on the cake :)

All that said, I still hang my food.

stupe

08-05-2005, 21:55

Bear bagging isn't a guarantee.

I'd prefer not to leave my food unattended and I don't know of one thru-hiker that sleeps with their food ever losing it to a bear. One reason may be that the bear most likely knows your there and doesn't want a *human* encounter.So you don't know of a single thru hiker who sleeps with his food losing it? That sounds like what the farmer said when his mule died. "Funny, she never did that before".
Think a bear is going to avoid your tent because it " most likely knows your there and doesn't want a *human* encounter"? If a bear is accustomed to human food and has lost it's instinct to avoid humans, it's going to come in your tent and get that food. Good luck fighting it off, last NJ bear season somebody got a 635 pounder. (That wasn't even a record.) And you should see our NY bears. One of them took a baby from a stroller a few years back.
I personally don't care what you do, but sleeping with your food bag in bear country is just not a good idea.

Footslogger

08-05-2005, 22:55

stupe

08-05-2005, 23:14

[QUOTE=Frosty]That is why I think that people who keep food with them AND are willing to fight to keep their food make out okay.
==============================================
I'm not willing to fight a bear to keep my food. I can replace the food.

'SloggerDoes that mean that....
You've got to fight for the right to pate' ?

Could not resist. Apologies to the Beasty Boy's.

fiddlehead

08-05-2005, 23:15

So you don't know of a single thru hiker who sleeps with his food losing it? That sounds like what the farmer said when his mule died. "Funny, she never did that before".
Think a bear is going to avoid your tent because it " most likely knows your there and doesn't want a *human* encounter"? If a bear is accustomed to human food and has lost it's instinct to avoid humans, it's going to come in your tent and get that food. Good luck fighting it off, last NJ bear season somebody got a 635 pounder. (That wasn't even a record.) And you should see our NY bears. One of them took a baby from a stroller a few years back.
I personally don't care what you do, but sleeping with your food bag in bear country is just not a good idea.
I too have never known a thru-hiker who slept with his food losing it. If your fear of sharing your tent with a bear is greater than your fear of losing your food. Well as they say "Up to you"! My food is important to me. Especially when i'm in a 158 miles section before the next road! I had 2 very scary bear encounters (from the hundreds that i've come across in the wild) that i've discussed elsewhere on this website. None of them involved a bear trying to steal my food. Maybe bears are smarter than you think. I believe the person who said that the bear would rather take unattended food vs. fight for it made a lot of sense.
once again, i'd like to repeat that Nat. Park bears are a different breed entirely. (in my opinion of course)

Frosty

08-05-2005, 23:38

last NJ bear season somebody got a 635 pounder. (That wasn't even a record.) You'll have to give me a link to this. Then give me a link to a verifiable report about anyone who has ever been killed or seriously injured by a bear in NJ.

Bears are a nuisance, but they are black bears not polar bears. Black bears become habituated to people which is not the same as losing their fear of them. A predatory black bear is extremely rare. Yeah, I know, your farmer was surprised because his mule hadn't died twice, but except for him, most people realize that if something has never happened before, it does not mean it will suddenly start happening all the time.

I'm not saying you shouldn't hang your food bag - I do - only that having a bear sniff at your food and being attacked by a bear for your food are two different things. There's a lot on made-up information floating around and silliness. There's no point in saying what another person does isn't smart unless you actually know what you are talking about and not reacting to tall tales.

Nean

08-06-2005, 00:31

Bears are misunderstood. If you are not a bear whisperer, hang your food. I wear Depends, just in case and carry a couple of mothballs in my pocket for good luck:o

stupe

08-06-2005, 03:20

You'll have to give me a link to this. Then give me a link to a verifiable report about anyone who has ever been killed or seriously injured by a bear in NJ.

There's a lot on made-up information floating around and silliness. There's no point in saying what another person does isn't smart unless you actually know what you are talking about and not reacting to tall tales.I was off by forty pounds.......
The largest adult male had an estimated live weight of 675 pounds (573 pounds dressed) and was taken in Green Township, Sussex County.
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/news/2004/bearrslts03.htm
Hiker in Wawayanda State Park, Sussex County, NJ, escapes bear attack when she bashes bear in nose with her elbow; escapes with minor injuries after bear knocks her to ground (S)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30A1EFA3A550C718DDDA10894DB4044 82&incamp=archive:search
West Milford (NJ) man Rob Skrypek is bitten by bear when he tries to prevent his dog from being attacked in his yard (S)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60F15FE3E550C778EDDAC0894DB4044 82&incam
A bear snatched a Brooklyn infant from her stroller at a Catskills vacation spot and mauled her to death yesterday, officials said.
http://nydailynews.com/front/story/12362p-11648c.html
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=3897&messageid=1029849068
It's really late, so forgive me for not providing a link to the latest attack in High Point, NJ. Bear bit a Boy Scout sleeping under a tarp. Happened in July. Take my word for it?
Apparently, predatory black bears are not so rare anymore. I live in NY, and camp frequently in the Kittatinnys, the Catskills and the Ramapos, and I believe that the bear situation and the bears have changed drastically in the last 25 years.

Frosty

08-06-2005, 14:04

It's really late, so forgive me for not providing a link to the latest attack in High Point, NJ. Bear bit a Boy Scout sleeping under a tarp. Happened in July. Take my word for it?Yes, that is my point. Two hundred boy scouts in NJ were bitten by dogs, many probably a lot more seriously than the bear bite, yet we go beserk over the one bear bite. The sky is falling, the sky is falling. The kid didn't die, and if he were seriously hurt, he'd have been on nation-wide TV. It is somethinbg to be aware of, but not something to obsess about.

Apparently, predatory black bears are not so rare anymore. I live in NY, and camp frequently in the Kittatinnys, the Catskills and the Ramapos, and I believe that the bear situation and the bears have changed drastically in the last 25 years.Predatory bears prey on humans, and while there may have been predatory black bears, I haven't heard of it. Bears are looking for food, and to black bears that doesn't include us. The stroller incident was tragic, horrible, but not something for hikers to guard against unless the hiker is the size of a rodent. Bears look at tiny creatures as prey.

All polar bears are used to eating mammals (seals, etc) and see us as prey. Some grizzlies also have been know to stalk, kill and eat humans, and that is why they are so dangerous.

Hey, I agree with you in that I also hang a food bag (I call it a bear bag though is is more for rodent protection rather than bear protection). I'm just saying that bear attacks are highly overrated and so shrilly shouted from the rooftops that we think bears are after us and the fact is they are not.

HIkers ought to be concerned aobut wildlife, but be concerned about the right wildlife. Mice, skunks, raccoons, possums and porcupines will impact a hike more than a bear. Take precautions against them. Moose are more dangerous than bears (bears do play by rules, whether you choose to believe it or not - moose are unpredictable)

Big bears like you quote are dumpster eaters. The only way a bear gets to be that big is by eating high calorie food. The stupid "humane" solution by well-meaning authorities is to capturre the bear and put it out in the wild, where it cannot possibly maintain a weight much over a couple hundred pounds by eating berries and squirrels. The only way such a bear can survive is by finding another town to feed in. They should simply be shot and thrown onto a landfill, IMO.

We're well off the topic of hang a bag or not, and this is obviously an emotionally charged issue for some. Just don't say people aren't smart because they aren't panicking or over-reacting. They are simply treatng a situation differently than you are.

ps Get out of Ramapos and Kittitinnys and suburban camping and get up into the Adirondaks. You'll see more bear scat and fewer bears.

stupe

08-06-2005, 23:15

A couple of things I would like to address. I sort of promised myself I would'nt get involved in these affairs anymore, but I am weak.

Yes, that is my point. Two hundred boy scouts in NJ were bitten by dogs, many probably a lot more seriously than the bear bite, yet we go beserk over the one bear bite. The sky is falling, the sky is falling. The kid didn't die, and if he were seriously hurt, he'd have been on nation-wide TV. It is somethinbg to be aware of, but not something to obsess about
Send me links to these facts? Come on, the boy scout thing is untrue, and I think I'd have noticed if the sky fell recently.

Moose are more dangerous than bears (bears do play by rules, whether you choose to believe it or not - moose are unpredictable)
Disgree. All animals ( including people ) are wildly unpredictable.

Big bears like you quote are dumpster eaters. The only way a bear gets to be that big is by eating high calorie food.
I sort of agree, to a point. I said "A bear was recently killed at High Point, NJ because it was so fearless of humans. It got that way from contact with people and their food". So we agree on something. Where we part ways is that you seem to think the only effect of this is big bears, while I maintain that it's more. It also creates a danger to other people who use the trail, and leads to killing the bear, making it an issue that goes beyond you and your food. Like it or not, the bear is a public resource just like a lake or a tree. And speaking of food, the woods in NJ and NY have changed drastically since they stopped massive clear cutting some decades ago. I actually have a photo of Bear Mountain from the 1960's, and you can't even recognize the spot anymore. The oak and maple forest now has more oak than maple, and hickory and walnut trees that were immature and non bearing even fifteen years ago are feeding the wildlife . From what I can see, blueberries have declined, but nuts are a richer fattier food. It makes a big difference, for example, a grizzly bear can put on a close to a hundred pounds just by eating army cut worm moths for a few weeks in the fall.

They should simply be shot and thrown onto a landfill, IMO.
That's what New Jersey and New York apparently do. They also tag and relocate, but let's face it: more bears wind up getting shot each year.

Just don't say people aren't smart because they aren't panicking or over-reacting.
Never said people were'nt smart. Never advocated panicking or over reacting. Just said hang your food for the sake of others and for the sake of the bears.
If you've hiked the trail in NJ and NY, you may have missed something. The Kittatinnys and the Ramapo Mountains have a beautiful rural aspect to them, complete with bears, deer, coyotes, farms, cows and horses and everything. Even an unconfirmed bigfoot encounter. http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=2144 If you ever visit, email me. Maybe we can hang food bags, hang each other, or just have a beer.

canoehead

08-06-2005, 23:21

I agree with footslogger, if we are at the same site HANG it. It's just a good habbit to hang your food bag. yeah its a little more weight but its not just your saftey we are all looking out for. the sites with hangs or boxes, have them for a very good reason...the truth is a fed bear will soon be a dead bear! knowing what we do about bears and the habbits they can develop , there is no reason not to respect our wildlife (LNT), remember we are guests in thier home.
safe adventures.
I've recently read threads on bear bagging, etc. Plenty of opinions. In my 314 AT miles, I've hung my food approximately half the time, the latter half, that is. I've never had a food raid, but heard of plenty of raid stories. I didn't really think about it much when I first started the AT. As I've tried to lighten the load/pack, I've considered leaving my 7oz hanging "kit" behind. I've been monitoring Andrew Skurka's C2C trek across the country (now finished), & noticed no mention on his gear lists of rope/hanging device & read of no raids from his food bag. Hmmmmmmm :-? Makes me wonder if I really need to lug that 7oz along the trail? Any more thoughts???

stupe

08-06-2005, 23:32

Frosty? Please excuse my poor nettequette. I should have addressed you by name in that last post.

Frolicking Dinosaurs

08-07-2005, 06:00

I've been hiking for decades and have never had a bear raid my food supply (mice, raccoons and one skunk are an entirely different matter :D ). I always hang my food in areas where bears associate people more with providing trail magic for bears than with being hunted - places like GSMNP. I also hang my food if I'm at a shelter or often-used camp spot because it is likely that local bears have discovered that food is often available at that spot. I rarely hang if I have gone off the trail to a seldom used camp spot that is away from a water source. I also don't cook where I sleep.

Bears are creatures of habit. They go to places that have provided food in the past when foraging for food. I keep that in mind and try to avoid camping in places they are likely to go.

Re: preditory black bears: There does seem to be a disturbing trend toward more black bears preying on humans than in the past. Perhaps it is just that we are hearing more reports because news delivery is now immediate and world-wide -or- perhaps it is occurring because the bears' habitat is shrinking while the number of humans entering the habitat is rising. I was particularly upset by this 2000 incident in GSMNP http://www.imagesbuilder.com/gsmnp/bear-attack-in-smokies.html . I knew this lady and she was an experience hiker - someone who would have encountered bears in the past and known how to act around them. The fact that the bears were guarding her body as a cache after she was killed strongly suggests that the bears indeed viewed her as prey.

trailhopper

08-07-2005, 10:52

If you beleave in the outdoors and what LNT stands for, then hanging of food and other items isn't a big deal. If we all do our part, then the wildlife would only be there to view not to raid,or worse. It's their yard not ours, so lets respect it
good idea--- good practice

fiddlehead

08-08-2005, 00:54

The problem is that people think hanging there food is going to make it stay safe. That's not true. The food is often taken by bears when hikers hang it. That's why those of us who sleep with their food do so. To save our food!

bearbait2k4

08-08-2005, 01:26

You know, a great way to end the sleep with your food debate would be to show the countless articles depicting the bear attacks due to people sleeping with their food.

None of the posted stories on this thread do that, and I honestly have yet to hear of an incident.

If you're worried about bear attacks, period, then don't go out in the woods, because you SMELL like food, regardless of where you hang your food bag. You eat food out there, some of the smell will inevitably get on you, your clothing, etc., and you likely will not have the facilities or capability to wash all of the food odor off your body. The reason this scout in NJ was attacked recently was because his sleeping bag smelled like food - - that and the sheer stupidity of the other campers that decided to film and picture the incident instead of scare the bear off (by the way, the bear was eventually spooked away when they actually tried to do so). This scout wasn't sleeping with his food, was he?

More than anything else, hanging your food is simply peace of mind. The way I've seen most people hang their food - - it's definitely peace of mind, because it's done improperly.

Either way, if you eat food in the woods, you WILL smell like food in the woods. So, I can't really say that sleeping with your food is really going to increase your chances of being attacked.

SGT Rock

08-08-2005, 01:55

Ahhh, but if you sleep in a hammock you either hang the food outside, or you hang the food inside, either way you hang your food.

For space reasons, I prefer outside.

Lone Wolf

08-08-2005, 05:25

Speaking of bears, I was running on the AT a few miles south of town yesterday when I came upon a momma and baby bear. Momma took off like a rocket down the mountain and baby went straight up a tree. I hung for a bit to see if momma would come back but she didn't. Guess bears are skeered of wolves. :)

SGT Rock

08-08-2005, 08:55

Probably the smell :(

dougmeredith

08-08-2005, 13:58

The beauty of the PCT method is that you don't have to go through that trouble. Bears and animals can't do anything with a loose rope to dislodge the food.
What if the bear steps on the rope end and then leans against it? I would think that would easily bring the food bag down?

Doug

Youngblood

08-08-2005, 16:00

What if the bear steps on the rope end and then leans against it? I would think that would easily bring the food bag down?

Doug
I don't think so, you have to pull a few feet on the cord to get to get your hands on the restrictor stick (that is how you take it down, pull on the cord, remove the restrictor stick and then let gravity bring it on down). Apparently bears teeth and claws prevent them from doing much with a dangling rope. The traditional method of tying off one end of the rope means they can pull on the tensioned rope until the food bag comes over the branch or the cord snaps.