View Full Version : The fine view of oil drilling near the CDT???
http://tonybynum.com/chief-mountain-sold-for-oil-development/
I guess we can hope that they drill a few test wells and don't find any oil?
I forget but I'm not sure if you can actually see Chief Mountain from the trail or alternate. Maybe on the shuttle to/from.
Take your pick.
Temporary drill rig?
Permanent eyesore?
http://www.soshillcountry.org/info/pro-con.html
Wayne
WorldPeaceAndStuff
08-09-2013, 11:46
Can't get cancer/sick/die from an eyesore like a windmill. I'll gladly take it over the ground polluting oil and coal industries.
Take your pick.
Temporary drill rig?
Permanent eyesore?
http://www.soshillcountry.org/info/pro-con.html
Wayne
They're OK as long as you can't hear them. However, not all are aesthetically pleasing.
This will degenerate into a political/social/non-hiking discussion soon enough.
Later, Y'all.
Wayne
Slo-go'en
08-09-2013, 14:47
This will degenerate into a political/social/non-hiking discussion soon enough.
Later, Y'all.
Wayne
Indeed. Lets not even get into the fracking thing, which is probably the worst idea anyone has ever come up with. So, how desperate are we for energy anyway and how much do we have to distroy the planet in getting every bit of it out of the ground? It's not going to last forever. It's a question of do we run out first or kill ourselfs off trying? Better enjoy it now while we can...
Indeed. Lets not even get into the fracking thing, which is probably the worst idea anyone has ever come up with. So, how desperate are we for energy anyway and how much do we have to distroy the planet in getting every bit of it out of the ground? It's not going to last forever. It's a question of do we run out first or kill ourselfs off trying? Better enjoy it now while we can...
Better stock up on sil-nylon while you can.
JustaTouron
08-09-2013, 15:58
Take your pick.
Temporary drill rig?
Permanent eyesore?
http://www.soshillcountry.org/info/pro-con.html
Wayne
They may not look pretty. But of all the possible alternative they are best.
They may not look pretty. But of all the possible alternative they are best.
Windmills are not a substitute for oil.
Windmills are not a substitute for oil.
...and this has nothing do with the CDT. :)
Hope Sly does not get mad at me for posting this link. We know how well WBers behave when it comes to certain issues. :D
I forget but I'm not sure if you can actually see Chief Mountain from the trail or alternate. Maybe on the shuttle to/from.
Yes, you can see Chief Mountain from at least one of the CDT alternates which IS NOT the Highline Trail that runs from Waterton NP in Canada into Glacier NP in the U.S. I really don't get it. I hear native indigenous peoples speak about the land being sacred and of the peoples being bonded to it yet I see this and say ummmm?
...and this has nothing do with the CDT. :)
You are correct. Carry on
good news: http://missoulian.com/news/local/blackfeet-cancel-oil-gas-leases-near-sacred-chief-mountain/article_e7482950-05d5-11e3-8722-001a4bcf887a.html
good news: http://missoulian.com/news/local/blackfeet-cancel-oil-gas-leases-near-sacred-chief-mountain/article_e7482950-05d5-11e3-8722-001a4bcf887a.html
Thank goodness!
ams212001
08-16-2013, 01:24
Nylon/silnylon is a petroleum by product. So I guess fraking exists so people can go ultralight.
...and this has nothing do with the CDT. :)
Hope Sly does not get mad at me for posting this link. We know how well WBers behave when it comes to certain issues. :D
Yeah, and I'm one of them. If it gets out of hand I'll just shut 'er down. :sun
rocketsocks
08-16-2013, 08:12
Nylon/silnylon is a petroleum by product. So I guess fraking exists so people can go ultralight.
Fracking ultralighters :D
Pedaling Fool
08-16-2013, 09:18
Fracking ultralighters :DHe, he, he ..... :)
WorldPeaceAndStuff
08-16-2013, 09:30
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2011/january/jacobson-world-energy-012611.html
Read this. A quote.
"The world they envision would run largely on electricity. Their plan calls for using wind, water and solar energy to generate power, with wind and solar power contributing 90 percent of the needed energy.
Geothermal and hydroelectric sources would each contribute about 4 percent in their plan (70 percent of the hydroelectric is already in place), with the remaining 2 percent from wave and tidal power.*
Vehicles, ships and trains would be powered by electricity and hydrogen fuel cells. Aircraft would run on liquid hydrogen. Homes would be cooled and warmed with electric heaters – no more natural gas or coal – and water would be preheated by the sun.
Commercial processes would be powered by electricity and hydrogen. In all cases, the hydrogen would be produced from electricity. Thus, wind, water and sun would power the world."
This plan has been canceled:
http://missoulian.com/news/local/blackfeet-cancel-oil-gas-leases-near-sacred-chief-mountain/article_e7482950-05d5-11e3-8722-001a4bcf887a.html
Pedaling Fool
08-16-2013, 13:24
Yes it has been canx near Chief Mnt, but still drilling on Indian Res. because they need the money and it seems to be dividing its people. Article from last year http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/16/us/montana-tribe-divided-on-tapping-oil-rich-land.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
SunnyWalker
12-12-2013, 21:56
Well on the one hand all the complainers are probably driving cars and such. Go figure. I live in the middle of part of Texas' biggest oil and gas fields. So it is a way of life. Here is what I kind of see: the drilling portion isn't all that bad. You have the drill up temporarily and when it is gone it's not so bad as there is a pad there of dirt/gravel, usually about 100 X 100, some smaller. Then you'll have a pump jack there and they are usually on timers. So part of the time they just sit there and then they will start pumping. I think they are pretty quiet but you would be disturbed if your tent was near it. Now, don't get me wrong I would not want to see that near or in a Nat'l Park. Anyway, then there are tanks that are there and they don't look too bad unless they are steel and not maintained well. Without upkeep they then rust up real good and look disgusting. I see very few metal tanks that are maintained. That's about it. What is REAL BAD is what comes AFTER the drill. It is all the dirt roads they will build winding all over the place from site to site. Then there are power lines going all around and it can begin to look like a city without any buildings, just power lines. Then there are the trucks driving back and forth (tankers). When they are drilling it seems the truck movement is minimal and temporary. BUT if they are fracking then it's "all hell breaks loose" and they haul water and so on and so forth there for the drill. They also always seem to set up temporary places to get water. I could see them tapping into nearby water sources like streams, rivers, etc. Or they might drill a water well, set up a site for trucks to pull up, bring on water from THAT site, and then move on to the oil drill site. All this is "we want it yesterday" so the pressure is on and they work at a furious pace. So you can imagine if you were hiking by the site the truck is not going to be going real slow at all. Then there is the poisonous gas that may escape and one needs masks and a protective suit. If you were a curious hiker and you walked up when this was escaping you would be killed dead. Often this is released while no one is at the site. Actually once the drill is done no one is at the site unless a truck has pulled up. I think the nickname for this gas is H2S. It's quite common out here in the fields of the Caprock and Panhandle of TX and down near Odessa and Midland, TX. I would think it would occur everywhere and it can be breathed in, absorbed, etc. It only takes a short few moments to be lethal to a victim. This may escape during the drill and after. I have seen dead cattle and deer near drill sites due to this danger. I am personally against oil drilling in areas like or near Nat' Parks because of all of the above.
Sounds about as bad as the "good" windmills of the PCT.
THX for that SunnyWalker. Makes me wonder what is going on underground, which isn't as noticeable, and the potential consequences that we don't see and aren't being told about.
I vastly accumulate more annual mileage by walking, bicycling, and taking public transportation than driving my motor vehicle(work purposes almost exclusively).
It's that argument that ensues that unless Al Gore gives up travel in a car, plane, etc and lives in a cave eating locusts and honey he's a hypocrite that I don't buy into. Don't buy into that as an argument against An Inconvenient Truth. It's similar to that worn out idea that global warming is a hoax because another snowfall somewhere has occurred.
It's similar to that worn out idea that global warming is a hoax because another snowfall somewhere has occurred.
and very similar to the worn out ideas that Global warming is proven by every hurricane, tornado, heat wave, earthquake or thunderstorm.
Spirit Walker
12-12-2013, 23:33
You walk by a lot of oil wells on the CDT now when you hike across the Great Basin in Wyoming. It wasn't a big deal.
ams212001
12-12-2013, 23:40
http://www.ranken-energy.com/Products%20from%20Petroleum.htm
I think people should keep in perspective how much petroleum is part of our lives. The longer oil production is out of sight for people the easier it is for people to convince themselves that oil consumption is not part of their daily lives.
and very similar to the worn out ideas that Global warming is proven by every hurricane, tornado, heat wave, earthquake or thunderstorm.
Absolutely!
You walk by a lot of oil wells on the CDT now when you hike across the Great Basin in Wyoming. It wasn't a big deal.
I thought, at least some of them some of them were natural gas rigs?
I think the real issue with the Chief Mountain project was that it was another stinky machination by a corrupt faction of the Blackfeet leadership. There's a lot of crazy stuff going on there. We just got a letter from the Two Medicine Water Company informing us that, if we have been getting water bills from the City of Browning, not to pay them because the only organization with the right to sell water is the Two Medicine Water Company, and that the City of Browning is stealing their water!
The area around Chief Mountain is restricted to access for religious purposes only. And yet a small group of tribal leaders had been secretly negotiating for two years to lease it for drilling?
SunnyWalker
12-13-2013, 10:38
Sounds bad Marta. Sounds like a crazy letter also. You are caught between them. They need to figure it out and I am sure you have thought those words before. I know its not that big a deal up there in the basin I suppose. However, because of the H2S I would be careful and not get to close to a innocent looking well site.
SunnyWalker
02-20-2014, 10:11
I forgot to mention that the H2S is heavier then air. So if the well head is in a lower area, say a gully, or canyon the H2S will gather and build up there. Then along comes someone and they walk into it. Trouble. There are stories out in West Texas of where the workers are on a platform some feet above the ground level. One has walked down the steps or climbed down the ladder and the ground is such that I have described. They have died. Others have gone down to try to rescue them and they have died. Stories of up to 6-8 workers. This was what I heard when I received training to work around H2S. One has to wear a sensor and when it goes off you run up wind etc. Part of the training was to get us to realize that if one went down we were to stay where we were or leave and not attempt a rescue. Rescue was supposed to be left to a trained individual who had proper protective clothing, etc., on. All this and more is reasons for not wanting drilling in Nat'l Parks. OK, enough scary stories.
Alleghanian Orogeny
02-20-2014, 17:59
Not to be disrespectful, but I'd have to see some links to news media or other regulatory reports before accepting that concentrations of hydrogen sulfide gas has resulted in the deaths of many oil drilling workers, at least in recent decades. The industry works hard to identify "sour gas" and takes exceptional precautions to contain it and treat it at facilities near to the wellhead. To be perfectly candid about it, "many oil-worker deaths" sounds a lot like Josh Fox/Gaslands propaganda. If you've got independent sources confirming such events, please provide it. Exploration and production of natural gas close to National Parks is controversial enough without disseminating distortions created to sell movie theater tickets.
AO
You walk by a lot of oil wells on the CDT now when you hike across the Great Basin in Wyoming. It wasn't a big deal.
You're comparing the hiking experience/scenic value of the Great Basin to Glacier?
SunnyWalker
02-21-2014, 11:23
Allegahian: do your own research. I am conveying what I was informed of and taught at the class on H2S at the College where the safety class on this was taught. Sorry you don't like this. Maybe you are out of date? Let's leave it here so the thread is not hijacked as it is, to you -controversial.
Alleghanian Orogeny
02-21-2014, 13:49
Allegahian: do your own research. I am conveying what I was informed of and taught at the class on H2S at the College where the safety class on this was taught. Sorry you don't like this. Maybe you are out of date? Let's leave it here so the thread is not hijacked as it is, to you -controversial.
Well, let's see here. It was you who introduced claims of risks of hydrogen sulfide gas exposure from oil and gas operations in the vicinity of the CDT near Glacier NP. Twice, as you can see above. And with lurid details, no less.
All I'm doing is questioning your sources. Hydrogen sulfide gas is plenty hazardous and exposure to high concentrations can be and is sometimes fatal. A whole host of occupations and professions involve exposure to the gas. The great, great majority of industrial hazard statistics point to sewer maintenance and repair workers, sewage plant workers, manure reservoir works in the agriculture sector, and to some oil and gas workers at facilities where hydrogen sulfide gas is removed from natural gas. To imply that a wellhead is implicitly dangerous due to the possible presence of hydrogen sulfide gas is an enormous leap of faith, or at the very least a callous allegation. At every turn of events in the exploration for, production of, and transmission of natural gas, the industry and its myriad of regulators, both state and Federal, know to constantly test for and monitor hydrogen sulfide gas presence. To assert that merely hiking in the vicinity of a wellhead can bring the hiker into a dangerous situation from previously unknown-of hydrogen sulfide gas is ludicrous. You brought the whole thing up in the context of the OP's observations about viewshed issues, and all I did is call your bluff. I study the industry daily, having earned a geology degree, working in mineral exploration, and now being involved in investment analysis. So who's out of date here, the individual with one safety class under his/her belt, or the other guy?
And I'm perfectly happy to leave it here. The issue is viewshed, not oil and gas industrial safety statistics. Perhaps you should refrain from bringing unrelated subjects into the thread.
AO
SunnyWalker
02-23-2014, 23:12
No bluff Alleghian and I have no argument with you. I was simply relating what I was taught and heard in a safety class taught at a local college in Texas in the middle of oil field work. You have another view and valid I am sure. I appreciate your input and clarity. At any rate, I for one don't think I would necessarily like to see oil heads and etc., near a trail where I am hiking . . . say on the CDT.
Allegheny Orogeny, I don't think Sunny Walker was being an over alarmist. He never said many deaths of oil drilling workers occur from H2S. He's probably just relaying H2S(hydrogen sulfide gas) concerns as they were related to him by an OSHA compliant safety class. My dad was a petroleum engineer and my cousin and brother in law still are. I used to be able to enter refineries with my dad pre 911. When in some areas we had to wear H2S protection. My brother in law is now working in in Odessa and Midland TX in the oil and natural gas fields. In natural gas production H2S concentrations are even much higher than in common petroleum refineries so it is something to be aware of.
When I hike in Hawaii Volcanoes NP and in other places around some hot springs I'm warned about H2S also.
This is probably how the info was relayed to him. https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/hydrogensulfide/hydrogensulfide_found.html
Alleghanian Orogeny
02-24-2014, 09:58
Allegheny Orogeny, I don't think Sunny Walker was being an over alarmist. He never said many deaths of oil drilling workers occur from H2S. He's probably just relaying H2S(hydrogen sulfide gas) concerns as they were related to him by an OSHA compliant safety class. My dad was a petroleum engineer and my cousin and brother in law still are. I used to be able to enter refineries with my dad pre 911. When in some areas we had to wear H2S protection. My brother in law is now working in in Odessa and Midland TX in the oil and natural gas fields. In natural gas production H2S concentrations are even much higher than in common petroleum refineries so it is something to be aware of.
When I hike in Hawaii Volcanoes NP and in other places around some hot springs I'm warned about H2S also.
Well, Dogwood, yes he did ring the alarmist bell, and he did it repeatedly. In #24 he alleges that a curious hiker walking up to a wellhead could be "killed dead". In #33 he cites "stories" of 6-8 workers killed at one site. That's many deaths to me. Also in #33 he notes having personally seen dead deer and cattle at wellheads, so I suppose he's a veterinarian able to determine cause of death from the highway as he drives by. If that's not a nice collection of alarmist allegations, I don't know what is.
There's been no downplaying of H2S dangers by me herein. What I'm calling out is bringing in alarmist innuendo about it into a discussion of viewshed. The oil and gas industry has been dealing with H2S since long before my geology school days in the 1970s. Lots of natural gas reservoirs have it, hence the term "sour gas". When it's present, special facilities are constructed to remove it before pipeline transmission. These facilities, and indeed the very production wellheads and the pipelines to the sweetening facility, all bear hazardous materials type placards and clear warnings of the possible presence of H2S gas. It's the implication that an innocuous-looking wellhead spewing H2S could be encountered by a "curious hiker" who could then be "killed dead" on the spot which is ludicrous and has no place in a calm, informed discussion of the presence or absence of oil and gas development within sight of the CDT or a National Park.
And of course refinery workers and engineers wear detection devices and are well aware of H2S dangers. I said so from the get-go. That's categorically different from an alarmist statement that a production wellhead might "kill a hiker dead" though, isn't it?
After hopefully putting the hydrogen sulfide gas matter to rest, we should consider how the hiker community might best deal with development of any and all kinds within the so-called viewshed of a trail, National Park, National Monument, etc. We need to realize that some consider the concept of viewshed to be something of a stretch, along the lines of "OK, the National Park is off-limits to development, and now you want to restrict development on property within sight of the National Park?". I say this not to take a position one way or the other, but instead to make the readers aware that some very well-intentioned thoughts and concepts sound like an over-reach to some on the other side. We just need to remember this, since we need co-operation among all owners and users of real estate in order to further the most important of our conservation goals.
AO
I don't think it is the same company or lease, but this issue is back in the news: http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/ap_news/montana/company-objects-to-delay-as-it-seeks-to-drill-near/article_7726e7f7-4bec-5576-be9c-396e26ebe7ad.html
I think it is the same company and same lease. There have been several events recently in and around the Blackfeet reservation that hope to publicize the lease. Drilling opponents say that the feds had no business giving out this lease on Blackfeet land a couple of decades ago--the selling of the lease was illegal. They want the lease cancelled.