View Full Version : Eagle Creek Water Crossings
HooKooDooKu
08-12-2013, 23:10
I've been trying to map out the water crossings on Eagle Creek using my little brown book and google earth.
Here's what I've got so far: http://home.hiwaay.net/~jll/Upload/WaterCrossings.kmz
The points marked WC# correspond to the crossings as shown in the elevation profile of the little brown book as well as the crossing count as described in the trails description.
But I'm unsure of the water crossing labeled WCq located at 35°29'17.51"N, 83°46'18.12"W. It seems to correspond to the location described in the book as being a footlog bridge with a hand rail. But when you zoom in using Google Earth, you can't see an obvious bridge.
However, the point labeled WCb (actually located on a section of Lakeshore Trail BEFORE the start of Eagle Creek) plainly shows a bridged water crossing.
So I'm trying to determine if the crossing at WCq really is bridged and you just can't see it on Google Earth, or did the author make a mistake and confuse the bridge on Lakeshore trail and the 1st water crossing on Eagle Creek?
It has been a few years, so the trail may have changed some since I was last there.....
If you are hiking east on Lakeshore Trail, you have the option of turning north and hiking on Eagle Creek, or crossing the bridge across Eagle Creek and continuing on Lakeshore Trail.
When I last did eagle creek, there were no bridged crossings. I recall that there were 3 crossings between the junction with Lakeshore and Campsite 89. Then there was just one crossing immediately on the north side of Campsite 97. The remainder of the crossings (14 I think) were between 89 and 97.
I would look at your map, but .kmz is unknown to me.
Of course, my information may be significantly outdated.
I have a trip planned in October where we will be hiking Eagle Creek, so I will keep my eyes on this thread.
Thanks
HooKooDooKu
08-13-2013, 10:34
I would look at your map, but .kmz is unknown to me.
Sorry, my bad for assuming everyone was familiar with Google Earth (http://www.google.com/earth/index.html).
A kmz file stores waypoints and routes for the Google freeware "Google Earth". If you have Google Earth installed, simply download and open the kmz file, it will automatically open in Google Earth.
Because of the internet resources available, Google Earth is an awesome program for planning hikes in the Smokies. The University of Tennessee Knoxville has a website called GSMNP landforms (http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~dunigan/gsmnp/) where you can download waypoints for GSMNP campsites and many points of interest, as well as track logs of all official trails. The waypoints and track logs available at UTK are much more accurate than the base waypoint information available within Google Earth.
what edition of the brown book are you using?
because (and this is from memory) at one point eagle creek trail started at CS 90..........that was before they replace the pinnacle creek section of lakeshore and replaced it with the "new" one that cuts from eagle over to hazel creek....
there is a footbridge right after CS 90 that crosses a feeder stream............then you hit the metal bridge.......and shortly thereafter is the turn for lakeshore....
but (and this is from memory of hiking eagle creek last september) after that, there are no more bridged crossings of eagle creek...
i cant use google earth on my work computer......so i cant verify what you have as far as waypoints and what not...
HooKooDooKu
08-13-2013, 11:26
It has been a few years, so the trail may have changed some since I was last there.....
If you are hiking east on Lakeshore Trail, you have the option of turning north and hiking on Eagle Creek, or crossing the bridge across Eagle Creek and continuing on Lakeshore Trail.
Things might have changed...
I recall reading in the little brown book that Lakeshore trail used to follow what was otherwise called Pinical Creek trail. But Pinical Creek has since been closed and a new trail was constructed that remains closer to the lake and dryer because it is closer to following a ridge than a creek.
What you have today is campsite #90 located at what could roughly be called the three way intersection of Lakeshore, Eagle Creek, and Lost Cove. When you leave campsite #90 heading North/East you come to a large bridge across Eagle Creek (the Google Earth imagery is detailed enough that you can see the shadow cast by this bridge indicates it is a truss-type bridge). Immediately after this bridge, there is a trail on the right that starts climbing the ridge. That is the continuation of Lakeshore trail. If you go strait, you begin Eagle Creek Trail. Eagle Creek continues to follow the creek as it makes a quick U-Turn to the right. Immediately after the creek's U-Turn, there is a water crossing as Eagle Creek makes a Horse-shoe turn to the left. The description in the little brown book suggests this should be the 1st crossing on Eagle Creek trail by way of a footlog.
While Google Earth has enough details that you can actually measure the width of that 1st bridge (before the start of Eagle Creek trail) to be 7' wide bridge (+/- 1'), it doesn't have enough detail to see a 2' wide footlog that might be in shadows.
Of course the simple act of reviewing Google Earth concentrating in this one section brings to light what I didn't realize when I first placed this post... that the obvious 1st bridge is NOT a footlog. It is a truss bridge that the author could not have possibly confused with a footlog.
So at this point, I'd love for someone with a little brown book to review my kmz file and see if they agree with my interpretation.
Another issue I was a bit fuzzy on has been the location of where the trail is IN Eagle Creek for a distance of 100'. For those reviewing my kmz file, after trying to map these crossings out twice, I've come to the conclusion that this 100' segment is located at the spot my kmz file labels 'W11' (the other spots are WC for Water Crossing... but this spot doesn't "cross" the creek). The other 'unusual' label is WCs3 because that seems to be the crossing of a side creek as described in the little brown book rather than Eagle Creek itself.
The final crossing I'm a bit fuzzy on is the one labeled in the kmz file as 'WC9'. This is the 2nd crossing (when heading up stream) that should take you OFF the island with the campsite on it. I'm a bit fuzzy on this one because the Google Earth imagery isn't fine enough to obviously see the island in Eagle Creek as described in the little brown book.
HooKooDooKu
08-13-2013, 11:31
what edition of the brown book are you using?
because (and this is from memory) at one point eagle creek trail started at CS 90..........that was before they replace the pinnacle creek section of lakeshore and replaced it with the "new" one that cuts from eagle over to hazel creek....
there is a footbridge right after CS 90 that crosses a feeder stream............then you hit the metal bridge.......and shortly thereafter is the turn for lakeshore....
but (and this is from memory of hiking eagle creek last september) after that, there are no more bridged crossings of eagle creek...
i cant use google earth on my work computer......so i cant verify what you have as far as waypoints and what not...
I don't have the book with me at the moment, but I think I have the 2009 edition (I know it is at least one edition back from what is currently available, and at least one edition AFTER the 2003 edition).
As you can see from the reply I typed up while you were typing your reply, your description matches what you can SEE in the Google Earth imagery. But if you are correct, then my labels are not properly accounting for one of the unbridged stream crossing. Of course it is plausible that the 1st footlog listed in my 2009 edition has since been washed away (as that is the only thing that seems to make the Google Earth imagery match the description and elevation chart of the brown book).
there's a footbridge BEFORE the metal bridge-----just after you leave the campsite...
read my above note........trying to see what edition of the brown book yer using?
sorry....we're criss crossing replies...
that first footbridge coming outta the campsite was there when i was over there this past fall...
and fwiw....i've done the pinnacle creek trail a few times now......
My son and I headed from Fontana Dam along the Lakeshore Trail to Eagle Creek Trail on September 1, 2011.... As I remember it, the trail from Lakeshore to Eagle Creek was pretty much how TNhiker described. However, my son has a newer version of the brown book and I have a 1995 version. I have scoured the older, 1995, version and from this older (1995) version there seems to be a descrepancy with a footbridge after crossing the metal-framed bridge as described as follows.... Enjoy....
In the 1995 version, the description of Lakeshore Trail (from #90) is:
The Lakeshore Trail continues from Campsite #90 by crossing Lost Cove Creek via a short footlog with handrail. The trail then continues wide and flat alon the banks of Eagle Creek. At 0.5 miles, the trail turns and crosses the river. Here a wide metal-framed bridge reminds us of the history of the area. The bridge may look old, but don't be fooled. The NPS constructed this miniature railroad bridge in 1991, but left it unpainted to allow it to blend into the history and environment. Continue to follow Eagle Creek upstream and cross it again in a quarter mile. This time you will have to make do with a footlog with handrail. This crossing though is not for the fain of heart when the water is high. The crossing is wide and the river very swift, so take some extra care when crossing."
In the 1995 version, Eagle Creek Trail is described as follows:
"The beginning of the Eagle Creek Trail is 0.8 mile east of Campsite #90 on the Lakeshore Trail. At this junction, the Lakeshore Trail crosses Eagle Creek via a footlog with handrail to follow Pinnacle Creek to Jenkins Ridge. Our trail heads north through a cool hemlock forest for about a quarter mile until it too crosses Eagle Creek. Unfortunately, there is no footlog here at this wide and treacherous crossing. You will have to ford the river, so pull out the wet shoes, hitch up the pack, and take very good care in crossing; and the trail doesn't get any easier."
I do not remember a footlog bridge along Eagle Creek Trail, proper, and theorize it probably got washed out years ago. I do remember our first crossing of Eagle Creek to be a fairly wide junction (although water level was fairly low during our trip in fall 2011). This is where the footlog bridge probably used to be but I'm no expert.... I can check my son's version of the brown book but it probably will eliminate the footlog bridge crossing????? You have got me curious about the exacts of the trail....
HooKooDooKu
08-13-2013, 15:53
Ok, lets start with a picture of the area under discussion.
23380
Campsite #90 is visible in the lower left hand corner and I've labeled three water crossing in black-n-white ('1', '2', '3').
The while lines are the locations of trails according to the GPS data available at UTK.
The red lines and white words are the trail locations and titles according to Google Earth.
The trial only shown in red labeled as 'Lakeshore Tr' is the old Pinnical Creek Trail (long since closed).
Water crossing '1' is the metal trestle bridge. 200' beyond is the trail intersection of Lakeshore Trail and Eagle Creek Trail. Based on the trail descriptions and elevation profiles used in the little brown book ("Hiking Trails of the Smokies (c)2003) for the segments of Lakeshore trail, this intersection is the start of Eagle Creek.
Note, the brown book is in contraction to the labels Google Earth provides. Google Earth considers this section of the trail to be a continuation of Lost Cove Trail and doesn't have Eagle Creek start until the intersection of the old Pinnical Creek Trail.
The little brown book starts the description of Eagle Creek trail starting 0.5 miles north of campsite #90. That roughly equates to the measurement I make in Google Earth from campsite #90 to the intersection just beyond water crossing '1'.
The little brown book then states "Follow Eagle Creek upstream and cross it with a footlog with handrail. This crossing though is not for the faint of heart. This would seem to correlate with crossing '2'.
The little brown book then states "At 0.7 mile you many notice the junction with the old Pinnacle Creek trail...".
The little brown book follows that up with "[continue] about a quarter mile until [you cross Eagle Creek]. Unfortunately, there is no footlog her." This seems to correlate with the crossing '3'.
All this seems to point that the water crossing marked '2' either should have a footlog, or used to have a foot log. If so, then I feel like I've got my water crossing marked correctly in my kmz file as you travel up the river. If not, then I've got all my water crossing mixed up.
HooKooDooKu
08-13-2013, 15:55
that first footbridge coming outta the campsite was there when i was over there this past fall...
That would seem to be a footlog across Lost Cove Creek where that creek joins with Eagle Creek just north of campsite #90 well before the metal trestle bridge.
Otherwise, the only other place I can locate this footbridge is just before the metal trestle bridge. If I look at a 'MyTOPO' map, I can see a small un-nammed creek merging with Eagle Creek just before the crossing on the metal trestle bridge.
HooKooDooKu,
Please see my description of the earlier "1995" Eagle Creek trail description of the little brown book... A footlog probably WAS there at one time, but probably due to "flowage" of the creek, and damnation replacement, one now has to ford the river. It just ain't there know more....
yeah.....
the footlog im thinking and have been talking about is the lost cove one........
but, me thinks, yer overthinking this..... :P
im pretty danged sure----after the metal bridge----no more foot bridges exist to cross the creek.....any creek......cause there are a few feeder streams ya need to cross......like right after CS 89.....which is ekaneetlee creek.......
Based on the trail descriptions and elevation profiles used in the little brown book ("Hiking Trails of the Smokies (c)2003) for the segments of Lakeshore trail, this intersection is the start of Eagle Creek.
that is correct, the way i see it...........that is, ever since the lakeshore reroute...........that way it makes lakeshore continual combining the chunks from the dam over to eagle over to hazel (which they also kinda changed the beginning of hazel) over to eventually the tunnel....
WHEW! I'm tired reading all those posts. You don't get the first Eagle Creek ford until once on the Eagle Crk Trail. The signage and trails for both the Lakeshore and Eagle Crk Trails are obvious. The EXACT number and depth of the fords that are required on the Eagle CRK Trail depends on water levels. Some are rock hops at low water levels and some can get to be above waist deep at times. In the fall it's my guess the water will not be as deep. Sometimes the Eagle Crk Trail goes onto low islands with water flowing all around. Obviously in higher watre level situations those islands can entail walking in mud or in water for a short distance. At other times the ECT runs onto high and dry land.
As a side note, for all of those looking for a challenging 4 day, 3 night hike, to #97 (Big Walnut along Eagle Creek), #84 (Sugar Fork along Hazel Creek) and #91 (Upper Losct Cove along Lost Cove). This hike takes you from Fontana Dam along the Lakeshore trail and up Eagle Creek trail to the AT. A short jaunt along the AT brings you to the Jenkins Ridge trail down to the Hazel Creek trail back to the Lakeshore trail to Lost Cove trail to the AT, once again, to your car in a figure 8 pattern. Details follow, otherwise just walk on by.....
We hiked from Fonatana dam along the Lakeshore trail to Eagle Creek trail and stayed at #97 Big Walnut campsite the first night. There are historic home sites and artifacts along old NC Hwy 288 as well as views of Fontana Lake along the way. In September 2011, we encountered noone along the way from #90, to #89 to #96 to #97 (where we stayed). We pitched camp at #97 and readied for the crowd, which never came.... It was kinda freeky starting a fire and sharing it with noone along this trail. We relaxed into the night and both of us could have sworn to hear "crowd" noise in the distance (music, cheering, etc. I guess the creek noise plays tricks on the mind).
The next day, we headed from #97 to Spence Field along the AT which was challenging and it was very hot that day. As a result, we wanted to "air out" our clothing, relax and have lunch at Spence Field. We wondered why noone else was there? Some folks came through looking for the spring but the shelter was empty. We ate, dried out from the climb and then we discovered "why" after leaving the shelter up to the AT. The shelter was closed due to bear activity but, probably due to our BO, no bears were evident. We continued on to the Jenkins Ridge trail (JRT). The JRT was overgrown and we didn't see a single person on it all day. Except, I saw the biggest black bear I've ever seen, scoot down a tree and into, ?????, where did it go? Funny thing is my son didn't even see the bear. Then the trail switched back just below the tree the bear came from!! Good thing is the bear was long gone. We continued down Jenkins Ridge trail, uneventfully, to #84, Sugar Fork, where I was fully anticipating horse campers and many others to be.... There was noone, how eerie, but how doggone cool is that! We camped along Hazel creek by ourselves that night.
The next day we headed down Hazel Creek trail (HCT) to the historic home sites, artifacts and graveyard in Proctor and Medlin. A number of good smelling people were encountered along the way. We took the HCT to the Lakeshore Trail to the Lost Cove trail (LCT) and stayed at #91, Upper Lost Cove, where we finally encountered four othere backpackers!!! One even had hiked in STEAK (and shared it)!!!! We all shared adventurous Smokies hiking stories and it was one of the best nights I've spent in the Smokies.
The final day we headed up the LCT to the AT to Shuckstack Firetower, which is a MUST. I've been there about five times and the views are astounding. If you are afraid of heights, like I am, force yourself up each and every step to the breathtaking views that await. You will not be disappointed. We continued back down the AT to our car and completed yet another great journey in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park wilderness....
Sorry, HooKooDooKu (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?11871-HooKooDooKu), for the aside, but others had commented on taking this trail so I thought I would comment on our overall trip while it was still on my mind....
ummmm......that may have been me with the steak there.......
seriously........
i think you were there with one other guy, and then there was a group of 3 or 4.........and then me solo....
yeah.....reading where yer from (illinois) it was me that weekend that had the steak..........id have to look at my notes on when i stayed at 91, but pretty sure it was in september of 2011.....
Yea, we talked about the Griztrax website and off trail hiking.... You're from Knoxville and you're a long time hiker in the Smokies.... It was you.... Thanks for the steak and thanks for the conversation and all around good times, man....
yeah...
and i built the fire to cook the steak over......
that's my typical saturday night in the woods dinner.......
and then we were up at shuckstack together before y'all took off.....
come on down more often.....
Exactly as you described it... We try to get there as often as we can.... As a matter of fact, we've been there four more times since then! Good to hear from you...
Sorry for railroading this thread, but hooking up with TNhiker again is just too cool....
HooKooDooKu
08-13-2013, 18:39
but, me thinks, yer overthinking this..... :P
Given that there are 15 (or is it 16) other water crossing, whether or not there is a bridge at this particular water crossing or not is not that important.
But I do want to map out where the crossings are so that as I cross each one, I can decide if the next one is close enough to keep my water shoes on or far enough to change back into my boots. I also want to be sure I know which 'crossing' is really the one the book says words to the effect "don't CROSS the creek here, but instead walk up stream for 100 feet". Since the descriptions of where the water crossing are located are relative to each other, mess up where one is and you can mess up all the water crossings beyond it.
But at this point, all the re-reviewing and double checking trying to work on this thread is starting to convince me I basically have the water crossings properly mapped out. So unless something to the contrary comes along, I'm going to assume the 2003 and 2009 books have it wrong when they say the 1st crossing is via a bridge. It's just taken a while to get here with all the contradictory information between what I could read in the little brown book and the base information Google Earth has.
PSA: Don't trust the Google Earth base database for the location of stuff in a national park. This is not the first time I've found things wrong in Google Earth, and anytime I've tried to inform Google Earth of an error in their database, they never update it. So make sure you get your details from another source.
No doubt about it. GSMNP is one hell of a place to hike doing affording an infinite combo of challenging loops and end to enders. THX too all with the hike reports. I'll be in touch with ya TNhiker about the Copper Mines.
As I remember it, there are no bridged crossings once you are on the Eagle Creek trail. With my son and I, when we reached the first crossing, I changed into my Keen hiking sandals and my son into his water shoes and that is how we hiked the rest of the day until we reached our destination at #97. The elevation change seemed to be gradual so that this type of footwear was befitting of the trail. As for picking the trail up on crossings, there was probably only a couple of times we had to take some time on locating the adjoining trail. I believe once was when crossing over the island (#96 I believe?).
Once you reach #97 it can be a good work out on up to Spence Field! It's not too bad but it gets the lungs to working a bit harder....
HooKooDooKu
08-13-2013, 19:10
I have scoured the older, 1995, version and from this older (1995) version there seems to be a descrepancy with a footbridge after crossing the metal-framed bridge as described as follows.... Enjoy....
In the 1995 version, the description of Lakeshore Trail (from #90) is:
The Lakeshore Trail continues from Campsite #90 by crossing Lost Cove Creek via a short footlog with handrail. The trail then continues wide and flat alon the banks of Eagle Creek. At 0.5 miles, the trail turns and crosses the river. Here a wide metal-framed bridge reminds us of the history of the area. The bridge may look old, but don't be fooled. The NPS constructed this miniature railroad bridge in 1991, but left it unpainted to allow it to blend into the history and environment. Continue to follow Eagle Creek upstream and cross it again in a quarter mile. This time you will have to make do with a footlog with handrail. This crossing though is not for the fain of heart when the water is high. The crossing is wide and the river very swift, so take some extra care when crossing."
In the 1995 version, Eagle Creek Trail is described as follows:
"The beginning of the Eagle Creek Trail is 0.8 mile east of Campsite #90 on the Lakeshore Trail. At this junction, the Lakeshore Trail crosses Eagle Creek via a footlog with handrail to follow Pinnacle Creek to Jenkins Ridge. Our trail heads north through a cool hemlock forest for about a quarter mile until it too crosses Eagle Creek. Unfortunately, there is no footlog here at this wide and treacherous crossing. You will have to ford the river, so pull out the wet shoes, hitch up the pack, and take very good care in crossing; and the trail doesn't get any easier."
Read the descriptions very closely (along with the screen shot I provided), and you will see there is not a discrepancy. It's just that neither description give a full description.
The 1st description tells of a metal trestle bridge 0.5 miles from campsite #90 (crossing '1') followed 1/4 mile later by a footlog crossing of Eagle Creek (crossing '2').
The 2nd description start 0.8 miles beyond campsite #90 with a footlog crossing of Eagle Creek. That's crossing '2' located 0.5 miles + 1/4 mile from campsite #90. The description then goes on to speak of another footlog across Eagle Creek. But that footlog is what crosses Eagle Creek to get you to Pinnicle Creek Trail. It then goes on to talk about the 'wet' crossing at '3'.
The only discrepancy I see in the two descriptions is that the description for Eagle Creek claims Eagle Creek Trail starts at crossing '2' located about 1/2 mile before the intersection of Pinnicle Creek. However, I believe at that time, the 'true' start of Eagle Creek Trail was at the intersection of Eagle Creek Trail and Pinnicle Creek Trail.
Later, once Lakeshore trail was diverted off of Pinnicle Creek and started just past the metal trestle bridge, the start of Eagle Creek Trail became that intersection just after the metal trestle bridge.
So it would seem that regardless of what was at water crossing '2' in 2011, in 1995 through 2009, there was a footlog at '2'.
HooKooDooKu
08-13-2013, 19:15
As I remember it, there are no bridged crossings once you are on the Eagle Creek trail.
As you can see from my previous post... I think that is a part of the confusion. Over time, there seems to be three if not four different locations that could be (or have been) called the start of Eagle Creek Trail.
I'm with bigmkw on this one----keep the water shoes on from the first one up to 97...
It's more efficient this way....cause at some points, it's only a couple of hundred yards or something goofy like that between some crossings...
Hook--One thing that I have a question about---are you basing all this on google earth and the brown book? Or has the data been collected from boots on the ground?
Cause like been mentioned---both earth and the book are exactly right..
I've "collected" quite a few of the various editions of the brown book over the years and except in rare cases (reroutes, new trails etc) the information in the narratives is rarely updated...
But that's just my experience...
Dogwood---just let me know about the mines....slowly filling in my fall schedule with concerts and such...
Also, I sent ya a link that is a bitchin PDF about the mines..
And found out from a chance encounter with a retired ranger, a touch more info about the slate mine.....which I may end up goin over to in the next few weeks to check out...
THX TN Viking(TN hiker). It was good seeing you in Citigo/Slicjkrock/Joyce Kilmer. I got the email with the PDF you sent me
HooKooDooKu
08-13-2013, 22:06
Hook--One thing that I have a question about---are you basing all this on google earth and the brown book? Or has the data been collected from boots on the ground?
This is my second time to try to map out the locations of the water crossings (first time was about this time last year when I was planning a trip if Eagle Creek that fell through).
I'm basing my current points (the kmz file) on a combination of the narratives in the brown book (I too have a collection of multiple editions), the elevation map in the brown book with water crossings flagged with diamonds, Google Earth (the imagery was updated with better resolution since last summer), and GPS tracks published on the UTK website.
Prior to starting this thread, I didn't realize the bridge at '1' was a metal trestle bridge. But with the current Google Earth imagery, you can plainly see the shadow of the cross-members of the trestle on the bridge itself. When you combine that with all the details available in the brown book, its becoming convincingly obvious to me that the water crossing at '2' is the last footlog across Eagle Creek described in the brown book regardless whether there is a bridge there today or not. Finally, the water crossing at '3' is the 1st wet water crossing as documented in the brown book (counting 1 to 16) as documented in the 2009 (and prior) editions (even if the crossing at '2' is also a wet crossing today).
Dogwood---mighty welcome...
That was a great trip---swimming in wildcat falls along Slickrock creek was great....
If your in this area and need a ride---let me know and I'll see if it fits my schedule....
I think at this point in time---you just need to hike the thing and let it ease yer mind.....
But, reading back on these threads I kinda see where the problem lays...
"So it would seem that regardless of what was at water crossing '2' in 2011, in 1995 through 2009, there was a footlog at '2'"
This here is the problem.....the way I see it from the descriptions, this crossing of eagle creek is the crossing that lakeshore used to cross eagle creek to get to pinnacle creek..
There used to be a log bridge there (the moorings are still there as I use them as landmarks when I go up pinnacle creek) and while it was gone before I started hiking down there, it would match the description of the brown book saying it would not be for the faint of heart......cause at this point, eagle creek is pretty wide and the log bridge (by looking at the moorings) was pretty high over the creek....
That's the old part of lakeshore trail that one doesn't have to cross anymore especially if one if following eagle creek trail.....
And to follow eagle creek trail----it's pretty wide and open on the lower stretch (comparable to the lower ends of almost all of the parks creek trails---deep creek, forney, Noland, etc)---is easy and I would tend to say, nearly impossible to lose it......
Since I can't fall asleep just yet (it 230 in tha am)---here's the easiest way to describe eagle creek trail....
Cross metal bridge....hike up a short bit to first ford of eagle creek..
Change from boots to water shoes....
Follow trail and don't switch back to boots till shortly after (as in right at the edge) campsite 97...
After that, one can just rock hop across the creek the last few times it crosses trail going up to spence...
(That's where the brunt of the elevation gain starts---right after 97.....lower end is tame ala deep creek Noland creek forney creek)
Read the descriptions very closely (along with the screen shot I provided), and you will see there is not a discrepancy. It's just that neither description give a full description.
The 1st description tells of a metal trestle bridge 0.5 miles from campsite #90 (crossing '1') followed 1/4 mile later by a footlog crossing of Eagle Creek (crossing '2').
The 2nd description start 0.8 miles beyond campsite #90 with a footlog crossing of Eagle Creek. That's crossing '2' located 0.5 miles + 1/4 mile from campsite #90. The description then goes on to speak of another footlog across Eagle Creek. But that footlog is what crosses Eagle Creek to get you to Pinnicle Creek Trail. It then goes on to talk about the 'wet' crossing at '3'.
The only discrepancy I see in the two descriptions is that the description for Eagle Creek claims Eagle Creek Trail starts at crossing '2' located about 1/2 mile before the intersection of Pinnicle Creek. However, I believe at that time, the 'true' start of Eagle Creek Trail was at the intersection of Eagle Creek Trail and Pinnicle Creek Trail.
Later, once Lakeshore trail was diverted off of Pinnicle Creek and started just past the metal trestle bridge, the start of Eagle Creek Trail became that intersection just after the metal trestle bridge.
So it would seem that regardless of what was at water crossing '2' in 2011, in 1995 through 2009, there was a footlog at '2'.
Yea sorry, HooKooDooKu.... I meant, but did not explain, a discrepancy between the older (1995) version of the brown book that I have and perhaps the later issues of the book.... And if this, too, is wrong, all I can say is, "I do not remember any footlog crossings of Eagle Creek".
Funny story though with the figure 8 trip my son an I took.... From #84, Sugar Fork, along the Lakeshore Trail until we reached Eagle Creek, the weather was quite warm and our feet were sweating big time. We decided to give our dogs a rest in the cool waters of Eagle Creek (before #91 Upper Lost Cove) before we continued our short jaunt to our destination. My son seems to always attract snakes, or at least he always finds them. Anyway, long story short, the rock he decides to rest on and cool his feet in the water had a small water snake there as well. Too funny seeing him jump off that rock.... Good times....
How dangerous/deep are the stream crossings along this trail? I am looking to take my two daughters on a loop going down Eagle Creek and back up the AT, but we are a little worried about the stream crossings being too dangerous - especially with this years weather. Are any of the crossings dangerous or anything to worry about? Thanks.
HooKooDooKu
08-22-2013, 23:40
How dangerous/deep are the stream crossings along this trail? I am looking to take my two daughters on a loop going down Eagle Creek and back up the AT, but we are a little worried about the stream crossings being too dangerous - especially with this years weather. Are any of the crossings dangerous or anything to worry about? Thanks.
Given the disclaimer that a recent rain can quickly change creek levels, the best general information I could get out of a ranger by phone is that the creek seems to be running about 2" above average, and that there will be some places as much a thigh deep (on an adult).
Otherwise, the following advice comes from my experience of hiking down Forney Creek Trail earlier this summer with my 10yo son.
1. Before you begin hiking down Eagle Creek, you MUST be prepared for the possibility that the next crossing will be too dangerous and you have to turn around.
2. Since the creek gets generally bigger the farther down you do, the farther you go, the more likely you'll need to turn around. So be prepared for the possibility that you get by all the crossings... but the last one.
3. At each crossing, as you judge whether or not is it safe to cross, DO NOT PUSH IT. You don't want to put yourself in the position where you start to think about pushing your abilities at THIS crossing because you don't want to face the previous crossing again.
4.Be prepared to take your time. Hiking down Forney Creek, I think each crossing averaged about 20 minutes (stop, take off boots, put on water shoes, negotiate the creek, take off water shoes, dry feet, put on boots). There was at least one crossing that required about 30 minutes because we had to take extra time to walk up creek to where we could find a pool to cross rather than risk a deep strong current.
5. Check the weather closely before you leave. You don't want to put yourself in a situation where rain fall could raise the creek and cut-off your escape route.
The one piece of good news is that from what I've read in the "Hiking Trails Of The Smokies" (the little brown book), I get the feeling like you will not face a crossing that is too tough before you reach campsite #97. So once you descend from Spence Field, I don't think you'll have to worry about having to turn around and trek back up to Spence Field the same day. Once you reach #97, there is only one or two miles between camp sites. So if you decide you must turn around, you don't have to retreat more than 2 miles before reaching a camp site.
Good Luck.
When I did Eagle Creek (15 years ago), I was getting my manly bits wet in fast moving water. I'm 6'1" for reference.
My boys are 7 and 10. I would not consider taking them on this trail.
I get the feeling like you will not face a crossing that is too tough before you reach campsite #97
coming downhlll----right before campsite 97---is the first non rock hoppable crossing...........
after that----just like hookoodooku's great advice states----the crossings get wider and deeper....
it all depends upon how much rain is in the area.......
and just like madgoat states (and im about 5'10")---some crossings can get up to yer 'nads..........
years ago, along eagle, i did a crossing that was just above my waist line........
I'm planning on revisiting Eagle Creek in October (hiking south to north). We are are all bringing decent water shoes and planning to put them on at the first crossing and take them off when we get past campsite 97.
First time I did Eagle Creek, our group had no idea what we were getting in to. It was mid March and it was snowing. We came down Lost Cove Trail and hiked North on Eagle Creek. We got to the first crossing which was high, fast and wide. Put on our water shoes, forded across, got to the other side got dried off and warmed up, put our boots back on.... hiked a short distance and hit another crossing that was exactly the same. I luckily had a sturdy pair of Teva's (as opposed to some of the flip flops and pool shoes that came along on our trip), so I would ford across and then toss them back to the next guy in line.
On top of our general unpreparedness for Eagle Creek, a couple of the guys in our group didn't have sleeping bags adequate for the cold weather. We ended up getting off of our itinerary and staying at a couple of campsites that we had not planned on. But, that trip was my introduction to the Smokies.... and I loved it.
yeah.....ive found for that trail the easiest way to do it is once you change into water shoes, to keep em on til past 97........
its more efficient that way...
october along that trail should be nice with the foliage....
however, the water (and depends upon rain) may be a little higher than right now....
one of the first times i did eagle creek was in october and that's when the water was up slightly above my waist...
Above the waist??? Maybe I should bring my bathing cap and a snorkel too. ;)
Above the waist??? Maybe I should bring my bathing cap and a snorkel too. ;)
some people do snorkeling in the creeks in the park....
but, there was definetly a crossing i did years ago where the water was just above my waist......
flemdawg1
08-26-2013, 18:48
I've been trying to map out the water crossings on Eagle Creek using my little brown book and google earth.
Here's what I've got so far: http://home.hiwaay.net/~jll/Upload/WaterCrossings.kmz
The points marked WC# correspond to the crossings as shown in the elevation profile of the little brown book as well as the crossing count as described in the trails description.
But I'm unsure of the water crossing labeled WCq located at 35°29'17.51"N, 83°46'18.12"W. It seems to correspond to the location described in the book as being a footlog bridge with a hand rail. But when you zoom in using Google Earth, you can't see an obvious bridge.
However, the point labeled WCb (actually located on a section of Lakeshore Trail BEFORE the start of Eagle Creek) plainly shows a bridged water crossing.
So I'm trying to determine if the crossing at WCq really is bridged and you just can't see it on Google Earth, or did the author make a mistake and confuse the bridge on Lakeshore trail and the 1st water crossing on Eagle Creek?
Good luck with that. I hiked that trail in June and probably crossed the creek 20 times. There were only 2 bridges. The first 2 or 3 crossings coming down could be rock-hopped, after that you just wade thru. The Deepest one being over knee-deep. Felt great on the 90 degree day we did it. Wouldn't feel good at all if the temps were in the 50s or less or with snow melt.
I Can't remeber if any of the bridges were before the ECT met the LST. Sorry.
HooKooDooKu
08-26-2013, 20:48
How dangerous/deep are the stream crossings along this trail? I am looking to take my two daughters on a loop going down Eagle Creek and back up the AT, but we are a little worried about the stream crossings being too dangerous - especially with this years weather. Are any of the crossings dangerous or anything to worry about? Thanks.
I just got back from my trip where I hiked up Eagle Creek on Saturday. Speaking as the father of an 11yo son, I would have been willing to take my son on a hike of Eagle Creek this past weekend... but take note:
The water depth was about knee deep. I measured my leg once I got home, and if the water was to the top of my knee, then it would have been 22" deep.
The water crossings below campsite 97 were ALL knee deep. Basically, The lower section of Eagle Creek is so gradually sloped compared to the typical GSMNP stream, that its depth didn't vary that much from crossing to crossing. I finally was able to rock-hop the crossing just above campsite 97, as well as all the crossings above that. But some were very difficult to do so. With a child, those difficult crossings would have required pulling out the water shoes.
Other streams I've crossed have been like 20' wide, with only a 5' wide main channel where the water is swift. But again, because Eagle Creek is so gradually sloped, almost the entire width of the creek is the main channel. And at 22" deep, it is swift enough that it has some force. I wouldn't allow a child to cross without holding their hand.
So in the case of travelling with two girls, you've got to be prepared to take your time. You might all three be able to cross at one time (one daughter holding each of your hands), but you might have to cross back and forth guiding each girl across individually... and that would be for 15 major water crossings between campsites 90 and 97.
Heading into September is usually a drier season for GSMNP, so unless you happen to go just after a rainfall, I would expect you to be able to take the girls on Eagle Creek. Of course there is always the possibility for things to change quickly, and your opinion of the crossings might be different.
One other thing to note about Eagle Creek... the upper section is CRAZY STEEP. The GPS info page at UTK lists Eagle Creek as having the steeped 1/2 mile segment of ANY trail in the park. Some of it looked pretty treacherous. My process of climbing UP this section was to basically place my foot in the flat sections of the dirt/mud where someone's foot sliding DOWN the hill stopped. Now I haven't hiked DOWN Eagle Creek, so I can't say for sure. But based on what I experienced going UP that steep section, you might want to consider going up it instead.
BTW, the lower section up to campsite 97 (excluding the water crossings) was super easy. You couldn't hardly feel the grade at all. Above 97, while the trail continues to follow the old railroad grade, its a relatively typical climb. But all of a sudden, you can see the trail make a 90 degree turn off the railroad grade, and it instantly becomes really steep.
HooKooDooKu
08-26-2013, 21:13
I've been trying to map out the water crossings on Eagle Creek using my little brown book and google earth.
Here's what I've got so far: http://home.hiwaay.net/~jll/Upload/WaterCrossings.kmz
The points marked WC# correspond to the crossings as shown in the elevation profile of the little brown book as well as the crossing count as described in the trails description.
But I'm unsure of the water crossing labeled WCq located at 35°29'17.51"N, 83°46'18.12"W. It seems to correspond to the location described in the book as being a footlog bridge with a hand rail. But when you zoom in using Google Earth, you can't see an obvious bridge.
However, the point labeled WCb (actually located on a section of Lakeshore Trail BEFORE the start of Eagle Creek) plainly shows a bridged water crossing.
So I'm trying to determine if the crossing at WCq really is bridged and you just can't see it on Google Earth, or did the author make a mistake and confuse the bridge on Lakeshore trail and the 1st water crossing on Eagle Creek?
So I've basically got the answer to my question.
The little brown book's description of the 1st water crossing having a footlog is no longer accurate. At the spot there should have been a footlog, you can still see the foundation, but the footlog is gone.
Instead, the sequence is that you leave campsite 90 via a footlog (but you're still on Lakeshore trail) and you cross a metal trestle bridge (still on Lakeshore trail). After that point, you reach an intersection where Lakeshore turns and Eagle Creek begins. Then where the brown book describes a footlog crossing, there is only a foundation and you start your fords.
Additionally, where the little brown book talks about travelling up stream for 100' is no longer accurate any more. At the spot where I determined that spot would be, there seems to be some relatively recent clearing such that you remain on the shore rather than walking up the stream.
Cool, thanks for the write up HooKooDooKu! Sounds like you had a good time out there. Doesn't sound like the stream crossings were bad at all. That's surprising with the recent weather down there.
HooKooDooKu
08-27-2013, 14:27
Cool, thanks for the write up HooKooDooKu! Sounds like you had a good time out there. Doesn't sound like the stream crossings were bad at all. That's surprising with the recent weather down there.
Weather seems to have made a recent turn. We didn't have a drop of rain the entire trip.
By comparison, even after waiting for weekends with low chances of rain, I was rained on to one degree or anther in all four previous trips to GSMNP this year.
Thanks for the reprise of your recent trip. This is all great information since I will be hitting Eagle Creek again later this fall.
I assumed that Eagle Creek was a bit high when I did it 15 years ago, but it is good to see the range of depths that I should be prepared for. Knee high to waist high.
Like I said, our plan is to put on our water shoes at the first crossing and keep them on til we get to #97. But I came to a realization when I was using my crocs this past weekend for a short canoe trip. My crocs that I have been using for camp shoes and creek crossing shoes for several years now are not up to the task of a 5 mile hike across rocky stream beds and trail tred. I know that several people have hiked long distance in standard crocs, but my wussy feet are not up to the task.... Gonna have to look for a pair of Teva's or Keen's or something like that. Boooo.
Or maybe a super light pair of running shoes.
HooKooDooKu
08-28-2013, 09:25
our plan is to put on our water shoes at the first crossing and keep them on til we get to #97. But I came to a realization when I was using my crocs this past weekend for a short canoe trip. My crocs that I have been using for camp shoes and creek crossing shoes for several years now are not up to the task of a 5 mile hike across rocky stream beds and trail tred.
I too use something like crocs as water crossing/camp shoes. I didn't need to spend any money on more footwear at this time. So I wanted to know the distances between each water crossing so that I could decide when it would be better to just keep my water shoes on or take the time to put my boots back on.
Having now walked the trail, I will say that I found it easier to hike in my water/camp shoes than I expected. The trail gains only 650' in a distance of 4.5 miles. However, I did quickly learn that it was much more comfortable to keep a pair of liner sock on while wearing the water/camp shoes (to help protect my feet from the irritation of dirt and debris that would get in my shoes while hiking).
I'll have to post my GoogleEarth data later, but here's what I finally came up with:
WC1-3500
WC2-1300
WC3-2500
WC4-1600
WC5-900
WC6-700
WC7-100
WC8-1700
WC9-900
WC10-1900
WC11-1800
WC12-2000
WC13-600
WC14-1100
WC15-1700
WC16-8300
The numbers represent the number of feet (+/-) to the next water crossing when hiking up stream. Campsite #97 is just before WC16, and that crossing I was able to rock-hoop in boots the next morning. WC1 thru WC15, however, were pretty much all knee deep.
In the end, I believe I put my boots back on after WC1 and WC3 (and maybe WC4, don't remember for sure). But once I got thru all the set of crossings all closer than 1000', I had gotten used to and just keep my water shoes on til I reached campsite #97 for the night.
hiking in crocs for me, over a long distance, especially when wet----gives me a really bad blister than quickly turns into an open sore just to the inside of my ankle (where the strap is at)....
check somewhere like walmart or kohls for a pair of cheap water shoes.....
but i do like crocs for in camp shoes just to get my feet outta boots...
I've never hiked in crocs, nor would I want to.... I used them briefly as a camp shoe but then realized they are so mushy and provide no support if you have to go up/down an incline if nature calls or for firewood. My son actually got his crocs a little to close to the campfire and they partially melted.
I discovered the Keen sandals and they are ideal for campsite or water crossings and light hiking. I don't remember if I have the Newport or Clearwater model but they provide a better hiking sole (vibram) for Eagle Creek crossings as well as light hiking. They're heavier than my crocs but, to me, worth the extra weight.... JMO....
Keen sandals aren't cheap so explore knock off's... But on the beach, through the stream, light hiking or just on the weekend in the summer.... This is the shoe I prefer...
likewise i have a pair of keens----but they are heavy........
crocs were nice and light......
and yeah, gotta to be aware of the melting factor....
Yea, I know what you're saying... But this old fool prefers footing over weight... I think I rolled my ankle at Bear Creek campsite two or three times in crocs and decided, "Never again!!!".... But I digress....
I think we both can agree, unless you have "superfeet", you probably need something more than crocs to wade the depths of Eagle Creek. In the fall of 2011, my son used water shoes and I used my sandals from the first crossing to campsite #97.
Both solutions were adequate but it seems that newer technology, lightweight, water shoes and/or other lightweight options are getting more and more popular and more affordable. For multi-day backcountry hikes I haven't been brave enough to lose the boots and hike in regular hiking/athletic shoes, let alone, hike in ultra light weight water shoes.....
Yeah....the trouble with the new lighter weights ones are they cost a bunch more...
More than this cheapskate wants to spend....
HooKooDooKu
08-28-2013, 15:58
I was using something akin to the Vivobarefoot Ultra Pure (http://www.zappos.com/vivobarefoot-ultra-pure-dark-grey?zfcTest=fcl%3A0) (but again, a cheap WalMark knockoff). I can't say that I would recommend it as a replacement hiking shoe. But I was able to get by using them for the relatively short distances between water crossings on this relatively level section. But I was back in my boots between water crossings that were more than 1/2 mile apart as well as for everything above campsite 97.
Not Sunshine
08-28-2013, 16:35
I hiked from Fontana up Eagle Creek (and Lakeshore sounds familiar, too) to the AT junction, and then turned south and headed back to Fontana. it was a 30 mile trip total.
It was in 2008 - and I realize that was 5 years ago already - but I do recall like 19 water crossings. Keep your water shoes on until after that 3rd campsite (as recommended above).
Good luck with the crossings! It's been a wet summer here in VA - so I can only expect the water will be moving.
I think the first water crossing had a bridge (if I recall it had a HUGE wasp nest on it back in 2008), but after that, it was crossing after crossing by foot.
Have FUN! :D Watch out for bears - one of those 3 campsites was where I saw my first trail bear. He didn't bother us, though. I think we stayed at campsite 97.
HooKooDooKu
08-28-2013, 22:31
I think the first water crossing had a bridge (if I recall it had a HUGE wasp nest on it back in 2008), but after that, it was crossing after crossing by foot.
That was sort of the genesis of this whole thread. I've now confirmed that the last bridge is the metal trestle bridge that you cross while still on Lakeshore Trail. There used to be one more log bridge after the trestle, but it is now gone (but the foundation still visible).
Additionally, the 100' walk up the creek described in the little brown book no longer exists.
Yeah....the trouble with the new lighter weights ones are they cost a bunch more...
More than this cheapskate wants to spend....
Look at the Merrell outlet in , God forbid, Pigeon Forge (or elsewhere) for, relatively cheap (I think about $30), factory defects.... I know it may still be pricy, but I have sworn off Crocs of any kind (despite weight).... Just sayin' cause "I'm just an ol' wayfaring stranger"...
Good luck to all you people who have such perfect access to the greatest NP.... Hopefully someday, I can be a volunteer, trailrunner or just in general overall nice guy... Some of the nicest people I've ever encountered has been in this most serene, wilderness area.... Happy Hiking!!!
HooKooDooKu
09-13-2013, 20:28
Finally got around to downloading pictures. Here's a shot of one of the 1st water crossings.
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