View Full Version : Gps???????
jimmyjob
08-05-2005, 15:55
Has anyone used hand held GPS with the AT cordinates loaded into it, instead of using traditional trail maps and if so what was your experience???????
thanks
Footslogger
08-05-2005, 16:14
I own one but would never consider carrying it on the AT. Remember ...you're walking a relatively well blazed trail. A GPS on the AT might be fun to experiment with but not at all necessary.
'Slogger
justusryans
08-05-2005, 18:43
I'm planning to carry one with us on our thru-hike next year. It will have the Maptech Appalachian trail set down loaded into it. it has mile by mile trail discriptions, elevation data for trail profiles. I don't think theGPS is necessary. We could probably do without it. BUT, I would rather have it and know I am covered that take a chance however small and come to regret it. 7oz is worth the peace of mind.
SGT Rock
08-05-2005, 18:51
Has anyone used hand held GPS with the AT cordinates loaded into it, instead of using traditional trail maps and if so what was your experience???????
thanks
Not specific to this question exactly. I'm not totally familiar with the how exactly you plan to do it but my $.02. I like using maps to orient myself to the trail, but also to the terrain around it for as far as I can see and the parts I can't when I am out. It is nice to see how the area plays into the big picture, not just the next shelter, water hole, town etc. I've messed with setting way-points on a GPS and find it rather boring and really less than helpful because you still need a map to figure out where to go from where you are, and getting to the next point isn't always the reason for going somewhere - does that make sense?
Anyway, what I would like to see someday is a device like a PDA that I could have all the maps on, maybe a GPS or a compass feature, data space for saving the companion or something on, and maybe a feature for saving my journal on. And if it could also play MP3s that would be very nice. I did look at using a PDA for this (the Army issued me one) but I found it unreliable enough to be used for backpacking.
Youngblood
08-05-2005, 20:30
I'm planning to carry one with us on our thru-hike next year. It will have the Maptech Appalachian trail set down loaded into it. it has mile by mile trail discriptions, elevation data for trail profiles. I don't think theGPS is necessary. We could probably do without it. BUT, I would rather have it and know I am covered that take a chance however small and come to regret it. 7oz is worth the peace of mind.
You've got a GPS that you can load all that into? One problem that folks have pointed out about the Maptech AT set is that is circa 1999 and hasn't been updated.
Youngblood
Has anyone used hand held GPS with the AT cordinates loaded into it, instead of using traditional trail maps and if so what was your experience???????
thanksI have used a GPS while dayhiking or overnighting some parts of the AT in VT-NH-ME. I still carry the paper maps, but only for the elevaton profile.
I see that others have already said that a GPS isn't necessary, and they are correct, but as I understand it, you are asking about using a GPS with waypoints added in place of hard copy maps, not whether the maps (or replacement GPS are nevessary.
My advice would be not to do this unless the GPS has maps in the display. This would make the GPS cost a lot more than the maps. Consider $400-$500 for the map-capable GPS and $120 for the TOPOs (that cover the entire US including alaska) to load into the GPS. Propreitary ones are needed, alas. My point is that merely having a point or two displayed on a gray screen along with your relative position, will give you direction and distance, but not what lies between you and the waypoint. And it would be confusing in the case of some shelters, like that stupid one in GA that is over a mile from the trail and way downhill to boot.
I have a Garmin 60CS, and the maps I load in (from Mapsource) are as good as the ATC maps (except of the elevation profile). Better actually, because i can add as much to the side as I want, and include towns not shown on ATC maps.
There is a limit. of course. With the memory that came with the GPS, I could not load the entire AT and a lot of side stuff also. But I could load the AT and still have more than the ATC maps. AND if I I send my disks to a friendly hostel I could change-out what maps are loaded.
There is a lot of opposition to GPSs out there, based on the truism that they are dangerous if used incorrectly by stupid people. But the same is true of your penknife and hiking pole.
If you do decide to go this route, and it surely would be a fun thing to do if you like maps and GPSs, don't waste time trying to find coordaintes of shelters. Someone has done that already. See:
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~dunigan/at/
You can load these coordinates into your GPS with free EasyGPS:
http://www.easygps.com/
And of course, you CAN simply load these coordinates into a mapless GPS and follow the white blazes and check the GPS when you get into an "Are we there yet?" mode.
justusryans
08-05-2005, 22:41
You've got a GPS that you can load all that into? One problem that folks have pointed out about the Maptech AT set is that is circa 1999 and hasn't been updated.
YoungbloodThe one I have says it is the 2005 edition, but something is telling me to call tech support and get this clarified. Thanks for bringing this to my attention:D
Youngblood
08-05-2005, 22:59
The one I have says it is the 2005 edition, but something is telling me to call tech support and get this clarified. Thanks for bringing this to my attention:DSounds like they updated it this year. My 1999 version doesn't have Gooch Mountain Shelter in GA, it has the old Gooch Gap Shelter... which one does yours have?
fiddlehead
08-05-2005, 23:00
Keep in mind that GPS's eat batteries pretty fast. And batteries are very harmful to the environment if not disposed of properly. I might consider taking one along to "play" with as long as i had a drop box with a recharger and limited myself to the 2 "AA" batteries that would be in the gadget. Any more than that is either too much to carry for the amount of fun i would get out of it, or too dangerous to dispose of used batteries. There's a sign on one of the treks in Nepal that says: "Please return your used up batteries to the country where you bought them." now if only people would follow that advice!
I have found my GPS most useful in the car to find trailheads quickly. I do carry it on the trail to get a feel for how far it is to the shelter as I tend to push the daylight envelope. One night I might have passed the shelter without the GPS to bring me in after dark. Generally speaking, it is a toy on the AT. Until a full data pad is available, as SGT. Rock was suggesting, I believe a GPS device should not be considered a primary navigation device. GPS today is supplemental at best. Make a plan, carry a map, and use your head.
trippclark
08-06-2005, 23:14
I have found my GPS most useful in the car to find trailheads quickly. I do carry it on the trail to get a feel for how far it is to the shelter as I tend to push the daylight envelope. One night I might have passed the shelter without the GPS to bring me in after dark. Generally speaking, it is a toy on the AT. Until a full data pad is available, as SGT. Rock was suggesting, I believe a GPS device should not be considered a primary navigation device. GPS today is supplemental at best. Make a plan, carry a map, and use your head.
Ditto!
I always carry a Garmin Geko 201 GPS. It is great for finding the trailhead and for getting an idea how near/far a shelter is, but I consider the GPS a fun gadget but not a replacement for a map.
Tripp
justusryans
08-07-2005, 07:23
Sounds like they updated it this year. My 1999 version doesn't have Gooch Mountain Shelter in GA, it has the old Gooch Gap Shelter... which one does yours have?
Mine calls it Gooch Gap shelter, Which makes me think this new one is not as new and improved as they think it is.:datz
Keep in mind that GPS's eat batteries pretty fast. And batteries are very harmful to the environment if not disposed of properly. I might consider taking one along to "play" with as long as i had a drop box with a recharger and limited myself to the 2 "AA" batteries that would be in the gadget. Let me hazard a guess here: You don't own a GPS, correct?
If you carry a GPS, don't limit yourself to two batteries. Carry spares. And don't use rechargables on a multi-day trip. They have little reserve power. THey are good for day trips when you get home every night, but carry a set of spares even on day trips if using rechargables.
I do not find that my GPS uses a lot of batteries generally. I use mine for Geochaching, and if I then go backpacking, I do not put in fresh batteries. Why would I? I have a GPS with a large color display and the batteries last for many hours. The key is you don't use the GPS all the time. You turn it on, see where you are, look at the terrain ahead, then turn it off. A couple minutes of life off the battery. I do carry spares, but I also carry spares for my headlamp and weather radio, too.
Think of a GPS like a map. You don't walk down the trail with your eyes on the map every second. Youk keep your map in a pocket and take it out when you want to see where you are or how far it is to the next shelter or top of the hill you are climbing. Only if you are in trouble would you leave a GPS on for long periods, just as you might carry a paper map in you hand if youk were lost. That is why you carry the extra batteries. In case you get into trouble and need to constantly refine your position and/or make sure you are taking the absolute easiest/shortest distance out because you are hurt/bleeding/whatever.
When Geocaching, I tend to use the GPS more, and thus wear out the batteries quicker. Also if I am riding my bike in a strange area and the roads are confusing (handlebar mount), I tend to leave the GPS on.
I don't think I'd carry it on the AT (I didn't on my one failed thruhike attempt), but I use it on section hikes.
As far as not using a GPS because batteries are harmful to the enviroment, that's the way life is. Are you suggesting we don't use flashlights?
I do my best to keep the environment safe, but have to laugh at people who drive cars and SUVs thousands of miles a year, then worry about my using AA batteries and styrofoam coffee cups.
karensioux
08-07-2005, 11:31
Any good geocaching near the trail. I plan on doing PA. next month and plan on taking my Garmin 60cs. I just think it will be fun and like you suggested...it won't be on all the time. But is there any geocaching right off of the trail???
sparepocket :-?
titanium_hiker
08-07-2005, 16:26
I would only use the gps for navigation if it had real map displays (ie, not the gecko 201). I have the gecko 201, and it's fun in the car telling people what speed they are driving, "are we there yet" function, for checking altitudes, knowing "exactly" where you are and, ofcourse, confluences. A confluence is where a line of latitude and a line of longitude cross at whole numbers. check out the Degree Confluence Project (http://www.confluence.org) and it's a life goal of mine to nab at least one...
As mentioned, they only last a few continiuous hours, they eat the batterys up. On again Off again is probably best.
titanium
fiddlehead
08-08-2005, 00:15
Let me hazard a guess here: You don't own a GPS, correct?
If you carry a GPS, don't limit yourself to two batteries. Carry spares. And don't use rechargables on a multi-day trip. They have little reserve power. THey are good for day trips when you get home every night, but carry a set of spares even on day trips if using rechargables.
I do not find that my GPS uses a lot of batteries generally. I use mine for Geochaching, and if I then go backpacking, I do not put in fresh batteries. Why would I? I have a GPS with a large color display and the batteries last for many hours. The key is you don't use the GPS all the time. You turn it on, see where you are, look at the terrain ahead, then turn it off. A couple minutes of life off the battery. I do carry spares, but I also carry spares for my headlamp and weather radio, too.
Think of a GPS like a map. You don't walk down the trail with your eyes on the map every second. Youk keep your map in a pocket and take it out when you want to see where you are or how far it is to the next shelter or top of the hill you are climbing. Only if you are in trouble would you leave a GPS on for long periods, just as you might carry a paper map in you hand if youk were lost. That is why you carry the extra batteries. In case you get into trouble and need to constantly refine your position and/or make sure you are taking the absolute easiest/shortest distance out because you are hurt/bleeding/whatever.
When Geocaching, I tend to use the GPS more, and thus wear out the batteries quicker. Also if I am riding my bike in a strange area and the roads are confusing (handlebar mount), I tend to leave the GPS on.
I don't think I'd carry it on the AT (I didn't on my one failed thruhike attempt), but I use it on section hikes.
As far as not using a GPS because batteries are harmful to the enviroment, that's the way life is. Are you suggesting we don't use flashlights?
I do my best to keep the environment safe, but have to laugh at people who drive cars and SUVs thousands of miles a year, then worry about my using AA batteries and styrofoam coffee cups.
Ahh, you guessed wrong. I own 2 GPS's and use them. I don't carry extra batteries, I do use rechargeable batteries with a charger in my bounce box. I'm not suggesting you don't use a flashlight. Although i only carry a Photon II and have never needed to change the batteries on a thru-hike with one. (i sleep at night)
My technique with a GPS is to get the coordinates off the map and transfer them to Lat/Long. I then turn on my GPS and enter the days waypoints ( i don't have to be locked into the satellites to do this but can just turn it on and start entering) By the time i'm finished with that, the GPS is recieving and i look for the days 1st waypoint. I memorize the bearing to it, and turn off the GPS and use my compass on my digital watch until i get there, or get close. Then i turn the GPS back on and get the 2nd waypoints bearing and do the same. The only time i carry extra batteries is if i'm going into a section that's longer than 4-5 days: San Juans, Bob Marshall, Gila, etc.
I don't carry things i don't use everyday except for perhaps a needle and dental floss and duct tape. I learned a long time ago that if i didn't use something today, out it goes. (i use a bouncebox for things i think i might use later)
I'm sorry that you think polluting the environment is "the way it is". Unfortunately i am embarrassed that American's think this way.
Please rethink your ideas on rechargeable batteries, they can save a lot of money and the environment. (and they work)
ps, i dont drive an SUV, don't use a GPS on the AT, and have been using rechargeable batteries now for 4 years.
Footslogger
08-08-2005, 08:21
[QUOTE=fiddlehead]My technique with a GPS is to get the coordinates off the map and transfer them to Lat/Long. I then turn on my GPS and enter the days waypoints ( i don't have to be locked into the satellites to do this but can just turn it on and start entering) By the time i'm finished with that, the GPS is recieving and i look for the days 1st waypoint. I memorize the bearing to it, and turn off the GPS and use my compass on my digital watch until i get there, or get close. Then i turn the GPS back on and get the 2nd waypoints bearing and do the same.
===========================================
Curious ...do you walk the trail or do you bushwack cross country ??
'Slogger
Has anyone used hand held GPS with the AT cordinates loaded into it, instead of using traditional trail maps and if so what was your experience??????? thanks
TOYS!TOYS!TOYS!
like wuz said earlier....the A.T. is marked very well in most sections....why carry the EXTRA WEIGHT?
SGT Rock
08-08-2005, 09:05
You know, when I bushwack that is the time I really would like to have a map and a compass. If'n you just have a GPS, what do you do if you get off your track somehow or loose a signal?
Footslogger
08-08-2005, 09:53
You know, when I bushwack that is the time I really would like to have a map and a compass. If'n you just have a GPS, what do you do if you get off your track somehow or loose a signal?========================================
Well ...out here we do a lot of bushwacking (at least I do) and I carry all three: a GPS, map and compass. What I like the GPS for is the "GOTO" feature (heading, distance etc) but exactly to your point ...the signal sometimes does fade or become less accurate and that's where the map comes in handy. Has all the terrain features and most importantly, the water sources.
'Slogger
I'm sorry that you think polluting the environment is "the way it is". Unfortunately i am embarrassed that American's think this way.That's not what I said at all. Don't put words in my mouth. Here is what I said:
"As far as not using a GPS because batteries are harmful to the enviroment, that's the way life is."
I was clearly refrerring to the use of batteries. And as far as general polution goes, remember that I am not saying what is right or wrong. I am saying what is. What I think or you think "should be" doesn't change "what is." I wasn't talking about the way we'd like it to be. I was talking about the way it is. And the way it is is that people use batteries, and not just in the United States. But thanks for the mindless bashing.
I stand by my statement that I will accept environmental chastising only from those who do not pollute worse that the thing they are attempting to chastise me for.
You mentioned not driving an SUV, which I take to mean you do own a vehicle (which is not an SUV) which during its manufacture and use pollutes more than I ever could with batteries, but wished to dishonestly hide that fact in order to look good. Use a bicycle and public transportation exclusively and then brag. Until then, ****.
If you don't drive a vehicle, and don't purchase industrially-manufactured goods, then I salute you, sir, and apologize. If you do these things yet still carp on my using batteries, then I accept your apology but continue to fart in your general direction.
You know, when I bushwack that is the time I really would like to have a map and a compass. If'n you just have a GPS, what do you do if you get off your track somehow or loose a signal?
Ah, there's the rub, eh? The answer is to carry both when bushwhacking.
Actually, you should always still carry a compass when using a GPS. Note your bearing with the GPS and if you lose signal you can still meander in the right direction using the compass.
If you have a map-capable GPS, you have a map with you, but still have the issue of being lost. If you have no signal, it is likely due to heavy tree canopy cover, so you can't triangulate your position with map and compass.
If you use a map to get a general feel for the lay of the land before you hike, you will know if following ravines downhill is the way to go, or if you need to go up and over a ridge first, etc etc.
If I go out bushwhacking for fun (which isn't nearly often enough) I carry both map and GPS (and compass for emergency use). THe GPS tells me where I am exactly, and looking at that point on a paper map gives me an instant feel for the big picture. Panning and zooming out can be done on a GPS but it is much more effective on paper maps. Also, if you have a mapless GPS, you can take the coordinates from the GPS and see where you are on your paper map.
There really isn't a need for it to be an either/or situation. Take both. If you like to bushwhack, you'll love doing it with a GPS.
SGT Rock
08-08-2005, 11:20
I agree about the compass as well, but I guess I just take a compass as a given because I always have one on me. It may seem stupid to a lot of folks, but to me it as important as remembering my watch (cause that is where it is).
Let me hazard a guess here: You don't own a GPS, correct?
Until then, ****.
Frosty,
I've enjoyed many of your posts. However, your comments to another member, shown above, are mean-spirited and uncalled for.
Roland
dougmeredith
08-08-2005, 14:26
The key is you don't use the GPS all the time. You turn it on, see where you are, look at the terrain ahead, then turn it off.
Obviously you don't have a high enough level of GPS obsession. :) I did a 50 km hike this weekend and the GPSR never left my hand. I am hooked on the stats.
On another topic that has been touched on in this thread:
The mapping GPSR is great, but it isn't really a substitute for paper maps. You just can't see enough of the map to really make it useful. Very hard to answer the question "what is the quickest way to get Joe to a road so we can get him medical attention" with the tiny screen.
Doug
The mapping GPSR is great, but it isn't really a substitute for paper maps. You just can't see enough of the map to really make it useful. Very hard to answer the question "what is the quickest way to get Joe to a road so we can get him medical attention" with the tiny screen.
Doug
Yep...that's my biggest cocern about the GPS as the only navigation tool: The screen is just too tiny!
I like to think of the GPS as a nice complement to a map and compass. Another tool to add to the outdoor person's toolbox. A GPS helps with the *** factor. Where the *bleep* am I. You can triangulate...but it is easier with a GPS.
I did 20 mile or so day hike in Colorado yesterday. About 12 miles was off trail. (I have the cuts, scrapes, bruises and a bent ski pole to prove it. :D) Anyway, we did just fine w/o a GPS using old fashion map and compass skills. But, when we got to the end of the drainage it took us ~10 minutes to be sure where we were. It was in the woods, no real points to trinagulate. Did some dead reckoning and guestimation. (OK..we should be here. The stream is moving northeast..so the trail should be HERE). Worked out well if it took a slightly more time to gain our bearings.[1]
A GPS really shines in places without any distinctive landmarks. Go off trail (and above canyon) in Utah and it is really useful, esp. with the way point feature to get back to base camp. Of course, the GPS will just point you in a straight line. Good to have a large map to see the canyon between you and the destination. :)
Map, compass ..learn to use it and always take it
GPS ..a great tool that makes navigation easier, just know the basics as well in case it fails
[1]Of course, when you have three guys who all have an equal level of knowledge and experience (and all a bit tired and cranky) it takes a while to er..discuss the options too. :)
I used my Garmin Etrex for a section hike in Shenandoah three years ago. I installed the waypoints from the National Geographic National Parks CD. The Etrex is a hiking GPS - no maps, just waypoints, breadcrumb trail, compass, and altimeter. For all the reasons stated already, it was pretty useless - the AT is well marked, and the guide books give you a pretty good idea of where you are with the well documented trail points. It became just a toy whose weight was not worth it.
On another note, I just grabbed Google Earth last week and it is awesome! It looks like a valuable software tool to grab waypoints on more unfamiliar trails and have some hiking fun.
Frosty,
I've enjoyed many of your posts. However, your comments to another member, shown above, are mean-spirited and uncalled for.
RolandNot sure what you mean about the first quote. His post to me did sound like a guy who never used a GPS, particularly the comment about going through batteries so fast. People read that a pair of batteries will last eight hours, and think,"MY God! That is a lot of batteries," forgetting that it is eight operating hours, or not knowing that few people leave GPSs on all the time. In his second post he clarified that he had a GPS and only turned it on infrequently to check bearing, so I don't know why he would think GPSs would use up batteries so quickly, but had there been any indication that he used or understood GPSs in his first post, I wouldn't have asked the question. I honestly thought he never used one.
I apologize if you are offended by my stricture to him, and I would edit it out if I had edit rights (which I don't), but I was (and still am) highly annoyed that he would "quote" me for something I never said, something that clearly was not in my first post, and then go on to wham me as though I had actually said what he claimed. I probably should have sent my thoughts to him as a PM, but then the same could have been said about your post to me. It is a natural act to click reply even when a PM is really the way to go (you are addressing one person, not the list.)
The mapping GPSR is great, but it isn't really a substitute for paper maps. You just can't see enough of the map to really make it useful. Very hard to answer the question "what is the quickest way to get Joe to a road so we can get him medical attention" with the tiny screen.
Doug
I know what you mean, and normally bring paper maps in addition to the GPS but in a pinch they work. And knowing exactly where you are is helpful when looking for the best way out when a maze of woods roads aren't on the maps.
I had only a GPS last July 4 weekend in VT. We were at Thistle Hill shelter and one of the group hurt his knee. We determined the best way out was back the way we came, about 7 miles toward West Hartford.
He and I left. When we hit an old woods road, the GPS indicated it "might" be the same road crossed closer to VT 14. The GPS map didn't have the old woods road on it, but it seemed to slab the hill. It would save a mile of up and down hill, and he was struggling, so we took it.
Worked like a charm. From there, rather than follow the AT down, we watched my GPS (yeah, in this case, I pretty much left it on) and at each junction (these were now unmarked snowmobile/ATV paths, we used the GPSs to guestimate which one would be likeliest to not turn back uphill, and head closest to where we could get a ride to our cars.
Worked like a champ. (To you they are toystoystoys, Jaybird, but believe me, to this guy they were a deliverance. We cut three miles of walking, and came out walking only downhill.)
.
justusryans
08-08-2005, 19:36
Here's my delimma, if I carry my gps i should still carry my map and compass? Don't get me wrong, I carry a compass ANYTIME I go on a hike, dayhike or otherwise. The reasons we were considering taking the gps was so we wouldn't have to buy all those expensive AT maps. Carrying the maps would weigh as much or more than carrying the gps. Or do you just carry the map you're using and bounce the rest as you go along? I can use map and compass as well as I can a gps so that is not a issue. Can I just take the gps and compass? I figure even if we get lost with one or the other we can find our way back to the trail. And yes, I know the AT is clearly marked and many people don't bother taking either. I like to be self-sufficient and not rely on others people in case of emergency. recommendations?
fiddlehead
08-08-2005, 22:12
[QUOTE=
===========================================
Curious ...do you walk the trail or do you bushwack cross country ??
'Slogger[/QUOTE]
The technique i described is one that i learned when hiking the CDT my 1st time. There often is no trail on the CDT. Even when there is, it's sometimes advantages to bushwhack anyway. (perhaps you are heading to a water source off trail) i think they say that 70% of the CDT is trail. But then there are many different routes/guidebooks/. It's best to keep an open mind and (perhaps) change it daily.
I've done a lot of hiking in other parts of UT,AZ,CO,MT,ID. I don't need to be on trail to enjoy myself. In fact, i've learned to prefer being off trail.
I never said i don't carry a map. I said that i take the Lat/Lon coordinates off the map and enter them into my GPS before starting that days walk. Then i use my digital compass on my watch to find the spot. This saves batteries and allows my both hands free.
fiddlehead
08-08-2005, 22:30
That's not what I said at all. Don't put words in my mouth. Here is what I said:
"As far as not using a GPS because batteries are harmful to the enviroment, that's the way life is."
I was clearly refrerring to the use of batteries. And as far as general polution goes, remember that I am not saying what is right or wrong. I am saying what is. What I think or you think "should be" doesn't change "what is." I wasn't talking about the way we'd like it to be. I was talking about the way it is. And the way it is is that people use batteries, and not just in the United States. But thanks for the mindless bashing.
I stand by my statement that I will accept environmental chastising only from those who do not pollute worse that the thing they are attempting to chastise me for.
You mentioned not driving an SUV, which I take to mean you do own a vehicle (which is not an SUV) which during its manufacture and use pollutes more than I ever could with batteries, but wished to dishonestly hide that fact in order to look good. Use a bicycle and public transportation exclusively and then brag. Until then, ****.
If you don't drive a vehicle, and don't purchase industrially-manufactured goods, then I salute you, sir, and apologize. If you do these things yet still carp on my using batteries, then I accept your apology but continue to fart in your general direction.I apologize for being a bit harsh. I was hurt by your statement about pollution. Let me tell you about where i come from a little: The coal regions (anthracite) of PA are a landscape of strip mines that have been filled back in with trash from all over PA as well as NJ. Are roads are often clogged with garbage trucks with out of state license plates. When full, the coal companies get paid to remove the sewage sludge from big cities (Phila.) and spread it on these filled in huge holes. Then homes are built on top (sometimes.) This got me started on recycling 20+ years ago. It pains me when i visit friends in VT, TX, AZ, etc. and see that they don't recycle.
Presently i live in Thailand (and drive a 4 stroke 125 CC Honda motorcycle as my only vehicle) where the average education is 4-5 years. Everyone recycles here mainly because the govt has made it profitable to these poor people in that their bottles, metal, newspapers, etc. are bought back from them. The rest they burn after leaving them out for the dogs and cats and chickens to go through. Rechargeable batteries are used by many here. (Not the poor as they can't afford them.) It's unfortunate that plastic is now the wrapper of choice. In northern Thailand, you still get your food from a shop wrapped in banana leaves. I think a biodegradable wrapping material should be a priority for the world. (as well as wind/solar power being made more efficient)
Since i like to hike, i go to the Himalayas other year or so. (8 times now) I have found that these poor farmers in the foothills of the himalayas and many of the people of Tibet have terrible sores on their faces. I have found out that this is because of the hole in the ozone layer. Many times, people, on having found out that i am from America, plead with me to try to get folks from back home to stop this hole. I promise them that i will try. THAT is what i'm trying to do.
Once again, i apologize for coming down on you so hard. But i've found that Americans don't see it has their problem. They think that since their land is so vast, we have room to: dump our waste, send smokestacks of blackness into the air, and the worst: Depleted Uranium (if you don't know what that is, please "google it" ! It (to me) is the most horrible form of pollution on the planet. 2 days ago, the news here in thailand was about the 60 year anniversary of the Hiroshima bombing which killed over 160,000 people!!! I don't know if it made US news highlights or not. I sure hope so. It is my opinion that the American people need to know that they are the worst polluters out there. And that people are dying from it.
ps. I'm not lily white in the pollution game, but i am trying my best to be a model for others. As an American, i am often scrutinized for many things that people are bothered by and i attempt to change their views when i can.
dougmeredith
08-09-2005, 10:29
Since i like to hike, i go to the Himalayas other year or so. (8 times now) I have found that these poor farmers in the foothills of the himalayas and many of the people of Tibet have terrible sores on their faces. I have found out that this is because of the hole in the ozone layer.
I can see that you feel very strongly about this, so please don't take this as an insult, but I am quite skeptical about this claim. Is there a scientific, peer-reviewed study conculsively showing this?
Doug
Here's my delimma, if I carry my gps i should still carry my map and compass?
YES! A GPS can not subsitute for a map and compass. Batteries fail, the screen is no where as abig as a real map and it weighs more. A GPS is *really* overkill for the AT and is best left home.
As you suggested, bounce your maps ahead. Just take the section of maps you need for that stretch of trail. I'm lazy...let the post office carry your maps for you via your bounce box. :)
fiddlehead
08-10-2005, 00:44
I can see that you feel very strongly about this, so please don't take this as an insult, but I am quite skeptical about this claim. Is there a scientific, peer-reviewed study conculsively showing this?
Doug
I don't know. I guess it is generally understood in the southern hemisphere and near the equator that the sun's rays can kill you with skin cancer. Here people go to many extremes to stay out of the sun. I am not a scientist but imagine i could spend a few hours googleing this subject to look for solid evidence.
Your reply (above) sounds like a typical reaction from folks back home. They don't believe it could possibly be their fault in any way. Hopefully you'll be able to come to Nepal someday for it's wonderful hiking and get to see so many of it's wonderful people (with so many of them having these defects on their faces.) I ended up moving over to Asia mainly because of the people and their smiles and optimistic outlook on life. It pains me to see them so disfigured. They told me it was because of the ozone layer hole but then, they aren't very educated. Maybe they just guess it and i believed them. I'll work on checking it out.
fiddlehead
08-10-2005, 01:05
Here's some info i found from NBC news website after only a minute of looking. (i use cyber cafes and don't have unlimited time here but I don't think it's hard to find out how skin cancer and the ozone layer hole are related)
The UV Index indicates the strength of the sun's ultraviolet rays that cause sunburn. The UV Index ranges from 0 at night to 16 (in the tropics at high elevations under clear skies). The higher the UV Index, the smaller the time it takes before skin damage occurs. For example, at a UV index of 6 (moderate), at will take 20 - 120 minutes for skin damage to occur, depending upon the person's skin type. But at a UV index of 12 (very high), unprotected skin will burn in 10 - 60 minutes. UV radiation is greatest when the sun is highest in the sky and rapidly decreases as the sun approaches the horizon.
The presence of an upper layer of atmospheric ozone shields the earth's surface from incoming solar ultraviolet radiation and protects us from its effects. Many epidemiological studies have recognized that UV radiation is harmful to animals and plants. The UV rays have been linked to skin cancer, cataracts, and probably macular degeneration an important cause of blindness in America. There are 2 types of UV radiation: A and B, both are dangerous. UV-A is in the 320 - 400 nanometers band, and UV-B is in the 290-320 nanometers band action spectra. UV-B in sunlight is the most biologically significant wavelength. The measure of outdoor UV exposure is difficult. The fraction of UV-A and UV-B is constantly changing due to solar elevation, angle, varying hourly and seasonally and also varies with the ozone level. Sunburn is the result of overexposure to the sun's ultraviolet radiation. Long-term cumulative sun exposure increases the risk of melanoma and non-melanoma skin cancer. Melanoma is a kind of skin cancer, sometimes called malignant melanoma. It arises from the melanocytes, the cells where pigment is synthesized. This is a very serious kind of skin cancer that can cause death. If melanoma is caught early, when still very small, it can be cured. Melanoma can have many different shapes and appearances and can occur any place on the body.
ps. sorry if i took this thread off subject. I am thinking that it may be a good subject for a new thread (pollution) and will think about the right way to start one.
as far as GPS's go, i think they are a wonderful tool and we shouldn't turn our back to technology in the hiking world. (i like to use the sun for a quick bearing on which way i'm heading but don't like to rely on it for an extended time)
i do carry a watch with compass, altimeter, barometer, alarm clock, and it even tells the time