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SGT Rock
06-02-2005, 12:04
I'm about to head off to the woods for a couple of days. Things are starting to wear on me around here.

Anyway, folks seem to want to make the subject of death taboo, or to at least put it off until some unspecified point in the future. To the point that they pester the Admins to do something that on the whole goes against the grain against why this site has been what it has been to so many: a site that arbores censorship.

I feel for Troll because I don't have access to e-mail for the site, only the e-mails I get when someone sends a "Report Post", so I didn't see the level of e-mails he got. I can empathize though as one that has had to deal with such things as well as the occasional IG investigation or Congressional complaint.

Anyway, people out there want to debate this point and I think it would be best done on this forum as its own thread rather than an off-shoot of another thread.

Air Head
08-04-2005, 12:34
::sigh:: Death is a very fascinating subject. I spent 4 years of my life as an Emergency Medical Technician. I've seen a wide range of injuries, and had my share of deaths. One of my first calls at one of the towns I worked for was the death of one of the members' father.

It hurts. Even when you're not directly related. But at the same time, it fascinates you. Draws you in... Makes you think.

In some cases, thinking's a bad thing. Sometimes it's fun to speculate on why things are. God only knows I've spent a couple of nights wondering why I chose to drive 120 down a highway one night, get pulled over, and find out not only was I speeding, but operating an unregistered vehicle. Oyi. That went well with my parents.

But it's the same thing with death. How'd he die? Was it an accident? Was he drinking? Was he out with a bunch of friends, just talking about how much life lay ahead of them?

Regardless, think these thoughts to yourself, and certainly not in a public forum. The exchange of ideas is amazing -- and highly encouraged -- but remember, drunk or not, death hits hard. Michael Baldoni was an 18 year old child... someone's son... someone's legacy... Someone's flesh-and-blood realization that they'd taken on the responsibility of raising a child in this sometimes dark and cruel world and by God, they would do everything they could to keep his life as bright as possible... and now, his unique light has been put out for reasons we can only hope to understand.

As people who are fascinated and captivated by nature (who else would want to brave 2180 miles of it if they didn't love it?), I would think you all would realize that it is unbelievably fragile, and that, though as flawed as some of us humans are, we are still part of nature, and deserve as much respect -- both in life and in death -- as we would give to the Trail and its inhabitants.

Brown, my sympathies go out to you, Michael's family, and his friends.

SGT Rock
08-04-2005, 14:31
Regardless, think these thoughts to yourself, and certainly not in a public forum.Disagree.

If it were my child (or my brother) I would prefer others understand what went wrong and how to avoid it. To state that discussing it is a bad thing - is a bad thing.

rickb
08-04-2005, 15:33
I agree with Sgt Rock.

Air Head
08-05-2005, 00:09
Duly noted, gents. Perhaps I said it wrong. I mean, If you go about it tactfully, then yeah, by all means, discuss away. things started getting a bit out of hand in this post. ::shrug::

PS: Hey Rock, ever though about doing the trail with night vision goggles? : )

SGT Rock
08-05-2005, 08:18
I've thought of it.

Rain Man
08-05-2005, 09:00
I agree with SGT Rock.

Perhaps ALL posts except the original article should be thrown out and the thread should be closed.

Rain Man

.

dream
08-05-2005, 09:30
PS: Hey Rock, ever though about doing the trail with night vision goggles? : ) I spent some time (TDY) at the Ranger camp at Dahlonega Ga. When we were down there and we had some down time we used to ride our mountain bikes on the forest roads at night with NVG's on. It was pretty hilarious. and some good training.

SGT Rock
08-05-2005, 10:38
My first assignment was driver of an M113 in the Scout Platoon of an Infantry Battalion. We used AN/PVS-5s as our night vision. I could tell you some stories. I had a few close calls with death doing it.

dream
08-05-2005, 11:52
those 5's sucked I remember them. We called them Opera glasses because you had to hold them up to your face. the head harness strap was just torture. They used to have a fake leather pad that went against your face. When I was a private I used smear kiwi on my plt sgts Nods he had a big goofy ring around his face all night. You can also do this with the toilet seat in the Co's bathroom provided it's black as well. This doesn't go over so good though!

Footslogger
08-05-2005, 12:07
those 5's sucked I remember them. We called them Opera glasses because you had to hold them up to your face. the head harness strap was just torture. They used to have a fake leather pad that went against your face. When I was a private I used smear kiwi on my plt sgts Nods he had a big goofy ring around his face all night. You can also do this with the toilet seat in the Co's bathroom provided it's black as well. This doesn't go over so good though!===================================
Sounds like not much has changed since I as in ('68 - '71). Still pullin pranks on the officers. Course ...we didn't have many of the newer toys. We did have the twilight scopes though.

'Slogger

Nean
08-05-2005, 12:54
I'm all for open discussion but shouldn't we consider time and place? Ambulance chasing folks throwing out what ifs and salvating for details before these youngsters are even buried doesn't seem to be the right time. On a public forum with friends and family on the thread in grieve mode doesn't seem the place. Let them grieve and RIP for awhile before we pick apart the details and save the world. Would that be asking too much?

SGT Rock
08-05-2005, 16:30
I'm all for open discussion but shouldn't we consider time and place? Ambulance chasing folks throwing out what ifs and salvating for details before these youngsters are even buried doesn't seem to be the right time. On a public forum with friends and family on the thread in grieve mode doesn't seem the place. Let them grieve and RIP for awhile before we pick apart the details and save the world. Would that be asking too much?
So how do we determine the time and place. By the logic used, there will never be a time or place. Remember the Saved fiasco? Months after the last post, some of his friends logged on and got bent out of shape by what someone wrote about him. At what point does it become OK to discuss what happened and someone will sit down and not get bent out of shape when it turns out that something stupid or not stupid is the cause?

And we are not ambulance chasing folks! Geez! I totally resent the implication that speaking about what happened is intended as ambulance chasing and is disrespectful. We are hikers who have an interest in what happens in the community good or bad. We are people that do want to know what happened. We want to feel for the family, but a what if is not disrespect it is honest analysis. There may be some that say some stupid things in the discussion, but do we decide not to talk about it because someone might say something stupid ahead of time. If we want that sort of pre-censorship we may as well stop having a forum because someone says something stupid weekly about guns, dogs, religion, politics, etc. Heck some people never post here again over fights about filtering water.

I've dealt with accidents and accident reports for years now and have found that sticking one's head in the sand for whatever reason is more disrespectful to the hard price someone has paid and often does not ever quell the talk, but only makes it stronger, louder and more uninformed. The actions of censorship will only make speculation worse. You want to prevent gossip and rumors you meet them head on with information.

And yes, I think it is asking too much for many reasons. Next time one of you find yourself inadvertently offending someone over something like religion, politics, tree hugging, vegan ism, whatever and they campaign to get the posts deleted, the argument may rightly include this instance of how we have censored posts in the past. Up until now posts have been deleted when they are about one or two things: threats against one another and when the post were blatantly designed only to offend - usually on the grounds of race.

And yes, I am finally getting mad about this. It isn't enough that the posts were deleted. It isn't enough that people die in various ways - sometimes with obvious incompetence by others as the cause - and some want to equate it as "**** happens". But now we have people gloating over the fact that this is becoming policy here.

Dances with Mice
08-05-2005, 20:09
...wrote a whole buncha stuff right on target....

Agreed. And I agree so much that I'll put $ where my mouth is. Or fingers are. Whatever. Put my name in the August sponsor block.

Because free speach may be priceless but it doesn't mean nobody has to pay for it.

Heater
08-06-2005, 01:01
So how do we determine the time and place. By the logic used, there will never be a time or place. Remember the Saved fiasco? Months after the last post, some of his friends logged on and got bent out of shape by what someone wrote about him. At what point does it become OK to discuss what happened and someone will sit down and not get bent out of shape when it turns out that something stupid or not stupid is the cause?

And we are not ambulance chasing folks! Geez! I totally resent the implication that speaking about what happened is intended as ambulance chasing and is disrespectful. We are hikers who have an interest in what happens in the community good or bad. We are people that do want to know what happened. We want to feel for the family, but a what if is not disrespect it is honest analysis. There may be some that say some stupid things in the discussion, but do we decide not to talk about it because someone might say something stupid ahead of time. If we want that sort of pre-censorship we may as well stop having a forum because someone says something stupid weekly about guns, dogs, religion, politics, etc. Heck some people never post here again over fights about filtering water.

I've dealt with accidents and accident reports for years now and have found that sticking one's head in the sand for whatever reason is more disrespectful to the hard price someone has paid and often does not ever quell the talk, but only makes it stronger, louder and more uninformed. The actions of censorship will only make speculation worse. You want to prevent gossip and rumors you meet them head on with information.

And yes, I think it is asking too much for many reasons. Next time one of you find yourself inadvertently offending someone over something like religion, politics, tree hugging, vegan ism, whatever and they campaign to get the posts deleted, the argument may rightly include this instance of how we have censored posts in the past. Up until now posts have been deleted when they are about one or two things: threats against one another and when the post were blatantly designed only to offend - usually on the grounds of race.

And yes, I am finally getting mad about this. It isn't enough that the posts were deleted. It isn't enough that people die in various ways - sometimes with obvious incompetence by others as the cause - and some want to equate it as "**** happens". But now we have people gloating over the fact that this is becoming policy here.
Thank you Sgt. Rock. A ray of sunshine! :sun Though I don't thing Sgt. Sunshine would go over too well...

I will be PMing you in next couple of days with some things that I am concerned with and I hope you will respond with the same honesty that you have shown in this last post of your's and in the past. You are a straight up no BS type that I can respect. I will look forward to your POV on these matters.

SGT Rock
08-06-2005, 01:05
Thank you Sgt. Rock. A ray of sunshine! :sun Though I don't thing Sgt. Sunshine would go over too well...

I will be PMing you in next couple of days with some things that I am concerned with and I hope you will respond with the same honesty that you have shown in this last post of your's and in the past. You are a straight up no BS type that I can respect. I will look forward to your POV on these matters.
No problem. I always try to call it as I see it. And, I also have the balls to admit when I am wrong if I can be convinced of it.

Anyway, I think I am going to take a break from the Internet here soon, things are starting to wear on me. A good hike ought to clear the cobwebs. So if I don't respond right away, I'm not blowing you off.

Heater
08-06-2005, 01:32
No problem. I always try to call it as I see it. And, I also have the balls to admit when I am wrong if I can be convinced of it.

Without knowing it, you just hit on one of the reasons I wanted to PM you.



Anyway, I think I am going to take a break from the Internet here soon, things are starting to wear on me. A good hike ought to clear the cobwebs. So if I don't respond right away, I'm not blowing you off.
I just did one of those. Have a good breather and I'll talk to you when you get back.

Nean
08-06-2005, 02:52
Sorry to offend SGT Rock, maybe I should of said hearse chasers. Why? because these kids aren't buried yet before the speculation and what ifs start. [BTW, that statement only applies to those who speculated/salivated, I didn't think you were part off that group SGT Rock?] Yes it is human nature and we all know- inquiring minds want to know. Might save a life with that information? This discussion may have gotten to general. Which post were deleted that were of value? Examples are a wonderful thing. I don't think anyone is saying blanket censorship is a good idea/wanted/needed. Some folks don't think or don't care before they type and write things that hurt, not help. Censor negative speculation when we lose one of our own until the facts come out? I'll consider it part of the Patriot Act.

Time and place? How 'bout when the facts come out (time); you post the thread, here (place), saying how, why and what we can learn from this. I think we all trust your judgment SGT Rock. Respect for the grieving, Facts for discussion, which hopefully eliminates negative speculation. Fair? Doable? Neverland?

Enjoy your break as you have earned it many times over!

SGT Rock
08-06-2005, 08:39
Repeat of the new first post of the thread:

I'm about to head off to the woods for a couple of days. Things are starting to wear on me around here.

Anyway, folks seem to want to make the subject of death taboo, or to at least put it off until some unspecified point in the future. To the point that they pester the Admins to do something that on the whole goes against the grain against why this site has been what it has been to so many: a site that arbores censorship.

I feel for Troll because I don't have access to e-mail for the site, only the e-mails I get when someone sends a "Report Post", so I didn't see the level of e-mails he got. I can empathize though as one that has had to deal with such things as well as the occasional IG investigation or Congressional complaint.

Anyway, people out there want to debate this point and I think it would be best done on this forum as its own thread rather than an off-shoot of another thread.

New stuff that ain't in that post:


Sorry to offend SGT Rock, maybe I should of said hearse chasers. Why? because these kids aren't buried yet before the speculation and what ifs start. [BTW, that statement only applies to those who speculated/salivated, I didn't think you were part off that group SGT Rock?] Yes it is human nature and we all know- inquiring minds want to know. Might save a life with that information? This discussion may have gotten to general. Which post were deleted that were of value? Examples are a wonderful thing. I don't think anyone is saying blanket censorship is a good idea/wanted/needed. Some folks don't think or don't care before they type and write things that hurt, not help. Censor negative speculation when we lose one of our own until the facts come out? I'll consider it part of the Patriot Act.

Time and place? How 'bout when the facts come out (time); you post the thread, here (place), saying how, why and what we can learn from this. I think we all trust your judgment SGT Rock. Respect for the grieving, Facts for discussion, which hopefully eliminates negative speculation. Fair? Doable? Neverland?

Enjoy your break as you have earned it many times over!Thanks Nean. I plan to try and enjoy it. :sun:

On to my post before I head out.

Hearse chasers, ambulance chasers - the thing about these people are they try to profit off the miserable situation of others financially. Then there are of course the news hawks you didn't mention that are only interested in blood and gore for ratings. Neither of those things apply. This is where people come to talk about hiking and trail related subjects. The death of someone is hiking and trail related and probably more important than some of the other things discussed like "what color hat should I wear".

When the girl got shot in Georgia by a hunter, we speculated because that is how people form ideas and thoughts. It is brainstorming at its basic level. To say "I wonder if so and so was drinking?" is a valid question because it could explain a lot. To say to that person that they are not allowed to even express that thought - because it might actually be true, well it is a poor way to face that question. It isn't speaking ill of the dead to wonder why and ask. And if it is true or isn't true, it is often easier to state that and move on than to try and move mountains to protect that one item from getting out.

So then it is decided that some of the replies might not been of informational value past the only authorized questions and answers, but when does the post reach the level we need to censor it? We don't normally censor anything unless someone is threatening someone else on the board or some troll (not AT troll, totally different animal :D) says something in order just to piss people off. So what point do we decide that a frivolous post needs deletion? If frivolity were banned from the site we would loose about 2/3 of the posts but you would never get to know a person's personality and if they are the kind of person you would agree or disagree with. A "Just the facts" thread is ultra boring and usually ends up getting a limited scope of answers.

By the method you listed, we will need a moderator that magically knows all the answers and can determine every posts merits as they are made. Then the thread looks like 20 questions except that wrong answers are deleted so they might get asked again! I don't consider that a good way to run a board. In fact it seems sort of asinine to even try. So yes, I think it is Never Land and I also think it is an irrational answer to a simple problem.

You are right Nean, blanket censorship is a bad thing. Any censorship is a bad thing. Seems the Supreme court has said that speech that we don't like is protected as much as speech we do like. So up until about a couple of days ago we had pretty much left it to threats of violence and hate speech. Now we are going to censor worthless posts and posts that ask why, and posts that answer the why if the answer could possibly make the person look bad. So I guess the only time we can talk about death here is when someone dies of natural causes or is totally not at fault like if a tree falls on them, well maybe they were cutting it down so we better not mention that either.

So Nean how do we wait until the facts come out? When do the facts come out? Often these type of trail related things don't get a lot of coverage. It often takes the grapevine of the trail to get them out for us. The grapevine of the trail often gets the facts better in my experience than the media which I have had some experience with in this sort of thing. And no matter what we do there is always a chance that erroneous stories could come out on the thread - it is the nature of the beast. So then we do what? Delete any post that may come up if it doesn't have the admins stamp of approval - sounds like some other board where people often leave over such things? How about this: Why not just say in a later post - "no, it didn't happen that way" if you really know that it didn't. So at least someone else learning the story learns all the other angles were thought about and covered. That might actually cut down on speculation.

So, the main point really seems to be someone maybe did something that caused their own death. Some people think that is the possibility and said so. And others don't like that. There has always been the option to not read something here, but some people have decided that they are going to nag the admins until we change the rules to meet the implied needs of one specific incident or a certain type of incident. Some people are so bothered by the fact that others might say "Well if this didn't happen...." that it keeps them awake at night thinking how terrible it was that someone actually had the nerve to say something so simple.

So here is the most simple way to deal with this:

1. Read posts. If you disagree you can either respond and disagree or you can ignore it and go on with your life. I usually choose the first one because I feel information and discussion is the best way to deal with these things.

2. Don't censor things unless they are either threatening someone or they are purely designed to troll up bad feelings.

3. Create a condolence thread and keep it nice for the friends and family. Keep the talk in another area and make sure folks know when they go in there that MAYBE things in the discussion might come out hard and in ways they may not feel comfortable with.

4. Occasionally you have to say as an administrator: "Noted, I feel your pain, we are sorry for your loss. We have a policy of not telling people what they can and cannot say unless it violates certain basic ideals which we try to uphold. We have found the best way to deal with this sort of discussion is to politely counter it with facts. So you are invited to say whatever you would like to say on the board too and maybe set some people straight about _______ and what he/she was like, and what really happened." See as administrator, Troll or I often do things that aren't going to please everyone, sometimes it is you that is the person that is unhappy, heck, sometimes it is even me. :D

robin31
08-06-2005, 11:29
Death should not be taboo. Everyone has diffrent attitudes and such..which is what makes this world go round. If we all agreed..lt wouldnt be a topic.
Being a funeral director/embalmer..I face death everyday.
Death is a personal and different experience for each person.
In Death, just as in life, SHOULD be treated with respect and dignity.
However, I do beileve there is a time a place for the subject..maybe not on whiteblaze. This is just an opinion. Truthfully, i was just responding to Airheads reply and couldnt have said it anybetter.


[QUOTE=Air Head]::
I would think you all would realize that it is unbelievably fragile, and that, though as flawed as some of us humans are, we are still part of nature, and deserve as much respect -- both in life and in death -- as we would give to the Trail and its inhabitants. QUOTE]

bogey
08-06-2005, 11:34
Outstanding reasoning, and I don't know how you both deal with the negativity and still keep going.

Smile
08-06-2005, 11:42
Death is something we all have in common in our future. No avoiding it.
I'm behind you Sgt.Rock and think you are right on target....

HikeLite
08-07-2005, 15:08
I agree with SGT Rock. If you don't want to discuss a death, don't read the posts. No censorship.

smokymtnsteve
08-07-2005, 16:53
ah Death,,,or mortality,,something amerikans are frightened to face what with their youth worshipping culture,

I have stared my death right in the eye on many occasions, and attended the deaths of many, what having 'lived' as patient in a AIDS hospice, I have seen them hanging by electrical cords, overdosed and jumpers.

here around Fairbanks AK it has been not only a bumper year for blueberries but also a record year for DUI related deaths, seems like the ole demon alkyhol has raised it head mightily this year, Alcohol abuse is epidemic in our society and is very costly in taxpayer/insurance costs.

but back to DEATH,,,we all are going to die,,,so the answer is LIVE THIS LIFE TO THE FULLEST,,,,enjoy the day, live your dream.

run with the dogs under the Northern Lights and howl at the moon.

onE of my sayings.

"THOSE OF US WE ARE ALREADY DEAD, MAY KNOW SOMETHING YOU WHO ARE STILL LIVING DON'T KNOW"

I have spent part of my life as a practicing "cattlikker" of Catholic to the less cycnical,,up to and including some 6 months working and living in a Trappist Monastery back in 1978,

during my life I have recieved 'last rites' 4 times (not including the night I turned over my pick up) I sold or gave away everything I ever owned when I went into the Hospice, back in 1995, sat around wondering if I would live to see the 1996 Olympics,

ah...DEATH,,,It really isn't as bad as U may think, lots of folks are happy when they die....I look forward to DEATH,

even the bible tells you to weep when person is born and to rejoice when they die.

SGT Rock
08-07-2005, 17:13
ah Death,,,or mortality,,something amerikans are frightened to face what with their youth worshipping culture,

I have stared my death right in the eye on many occasions, and attended the deaths of many, what having 'lived' as patient in a AIDS hospice, I have seen them hanging by electrical cords, overdosed and jumpers.

here around Fairbanks AK it has been not only a bumper year for blueberries but also a record year for DUI related deaths, seems like the ole demon alkyhol has raised it head mightily this year, Alcohol abuse is epidemic in our society and is very costly in taxpayer/insurance costs.

but back to DEATH,,,we all are going to die,,,so the answer is LIVE THIS LIFE TO THE FULLEST,,,,enjoy the day, live your dream.

run with the dogs under the Northern Lights and howl at the moon.

onE of my sayings.

"THOSE OF US WE ARE ALREADY DEAD, MAY KNOW SOMETHING YOU WHO ARE STILL LIVING DON'T KNOW"

I have spent part of my life as a practicing "cattlikker" of Catholic to the less cycnical,,up to and including some 6 months working and living in a Trappist Monastery back in 1978,

during my life I have recieved 'last rites' 4 times (not including the night I turned over my pick up) I sold or gave away everything I ever owned when I went into the Hospice, back in 1995, sat around wondering if I would live to see the 1996 Olympics,

ah...DEATH,,,It really isn't as bad as U may think, lots of folks are happy when they die....I look forward to DEATH,

even the bible tells you to weep when person is born and to rejoice when they die.
What a rambling, but fun post to read. Steve you are the spice of life. You remind me of my stepfather. He could be a mean old bastard but could also give you the shirt off his back and his last dime if he thought enough of you and had it to give. To say anything different about him after his death would have pissed him off because he was mean when he wanted to be and nice when he wanted to be. He always said what he thought and was proud of it. He died not in the way he wanted to because some people wouldn't listen to him while he lived and when it was his time, they wouldn't let go, and then called it love.:mad:

When I die. I want a wake. Y'all get drunk (or high in Steve's case) and tell stories about me, and hopefully there will be some soldiers there to say what an ******* I could be :D

smokymtnsteve
08-07-2005, 17:17
"to suffer one's own death and then to be reborn is not an easy thing to do"

Dr. Fritz Perl,

orginator of Gestalt therapy or as I call it 'assault therapy"

justusryans
08-07-2005, 19:06
My wife and I both have a unique view of death, particularly suicide. We are both mentally ill. She is *****zo-affective and I am a bipolar 1. Don't get me wrong, while we are on our medication we are VERY stable. We work, raise a family, all the other pro-social things that go along with it. With both these illnesses, even once you have been diagnosed just getting your medications straight can take a loooooong time. Some people never get it quite right. One of the symptoms of both these diseases is suicidal thoughts, death becomes a constant companion. It's not a end of life but a release of constant misery. I can't explain just how good death can look. Try to imagine that you are constantly paranoid, everybody is conspiring against you, then to top it off you hear voices that aren't there, you see things that you know can't be real. You KNOW you are going completely mental, you know these things aren't real,but there is nothing you can do about it. This is the Manic part. When it first starts, it's not bad. You have tons of energy. You are ready to do anything, however crazy it sounds. You can go days without sleep.Life feels great. It's unmaintainable though. Soon you burn out, get seriously overtired. Thats when all the bad thoughts start...
The other end of the spectrum is when you totally reverse and just go totally depressive. This is not "oh I feel sorry for myself, life sucks" this is a total lack of feeling anything about anyone or anything. Life is a big black pit and all you are doing is sliding toward the bottom at light speed. 1 in 5 people with this disease commit suicide.
So yes, I've thought about it, but not since they finally got my meds straight. Anyway, what I'm getting at is that death can look entirely different to different people. It's not the same scary journey for everybody. It's a matter of perspective.

for info on bipolar or *****zo-affective orders, check out this website. www.dbsalliance.org/info/bipolar/html (http://www.dbsalliance.org/info/bipolar/html)
My wife and I are thinking about thru-hiking next year to draw awareness to mental illness. We are not interested in donations. We just want to draw awareness to a really misunderstood section of society.

smokymtnsteve
08-07-2005, 19:37
Very interesting justy,,,I have recently meet an AK girl who has the same DX...

lots of us folks here in the interior share similiar dx,,,so as my case manager says "come on up you'll fit right in,"

Fairbanks has an excellent Interior Community Health Center, located in Fairbanks along with a great Hospital.


the resources to help manage your dx are easily available here,,,one of the reasons I moved to AK is this...Medicaid guidelines and working while on Medicaid is exteremly easy and generous here...Alaska was one of the Nine early implementer "working while disabled" program states.

so come on up and join the rest of us :jump

smokymtnsteve
08-08-2005, 20:17
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050808/hl_nm/apnea_dc

ah ..let me go!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050808/ap_on_he_me/netherlands_euthanasia

Nean
08-08-2005, 23:39
Yes, SGT Rock, I can see your point. Respect for the dead and greiving just ain't going to happen here, perhaps in Neverland? Speculate away, it will all come out in the wash. Let each person say whatever, OK. Nobody is thanking attroll on this dead thread so w/o the emotion, FREEDOM does overrule Respect. Don't like it greiving parents,etc.- don't read it!:banana

I've been censored more than I could have ever imagined, that IS even worst than rumor. I'm still glad attroll got rid of that crap and this discussion came up. Hopefully there will be a higher level of respect from the undeleted post of the future....

SGT Rock
08-09-2005, 08:12
Yes, SGT Rock, I can see your point. Respect for the dead and greiving just ain't going to happen here, perhaps in Neverland? Speculate away, it will all come out in the wash. Let each person say whatever, OK. Nobody is thanking attroll on this dead thread so w/o the emotion, FREEDOM does overrule Respect. Don't like it greiving parents,etc.- don't read it!:banana

I've been censored more than I could have ever imagined, that IS even worst than rumor. I'm still glad attroll got rid of that crap and this discussion came up. Hopefully there will be a higher level of respect from the undeleted post of the future....
Gee Nean, you seem to think saying anything but "We are sorry for you loss" is disrespect for the dead. Since when did that happen in this world? I've been at lots of funerals, often the talk - including the family is how it happened.

And as to Never land, it was you plan as to how to make the thread work that is Never land. How about this - start a board and run if for a few years and find out how hard that really can be. Then come talk to me about Never land. You seem more wrapped up in your own personal feelings about this than you do about the actual discussion at hand. Arguments and policies made from emotion usually end up being bad policy. And yes, respect and grieving can happen, but apparently you will only be satisfied if it meets your way of doing it. We are setting up a system that protects people from finding the talk that may lead to parents that would be bothered by that discussion finding it, while leaving a process in place for people to leave well wishes. And the thread will be more "pure" for them. Seems we have come up with a workable solution but since it isn't yours, you are not happy and have decided it is disrespectful too.

BTW, If you notice, some people are also posting supporting the other side of the issue here about censorship. Some of the people posting on the side of respect by censorship had their posts deleted - some of them actually said condolence messages in their deleted posts, and others that are supporting free speech are ones that posted to these threads and said the same thing and didn't get posts deleted.

Last night I went through and looked at those deleted posts, lots of them that were deleted were ones that expressed sympathy to the family and even asked people to stop speculating or whatever. Some of the exact same stuff you have been saying. So again, once people read some of the deleted posts, they will see it was something that is worth saying because it is exactly the same thing you are saying now. Do you still think censorship is good? For some reason I would bet you will say it is given your state of mind in this argument. If I take your last paragraph as you operational policy, apparently you normally go where you shouldn't on boards and don't mind censorship and think it is good. BTW, in the test areas for sensitive discussion, one of the posts I felt still needed to be left deleted was your attack on someone else who I personally know as one of the more sensitive people here, it seemed very uncalled for given the tone of the conversation up to that point in the thread.

I think once you see what we are doing here, you will be satisfied. Then again I could be wrong. But the system will prevent you or anyone from going to places you don't want to go unless you choose to go get pissed off and will make the family very happy at the same time - VERY HAPPY. The only thing that will screw this up is if someone deliberately tries to bring the family in to get them pissed off and start this all over again. If we find out that happens, we will simply have to ban the people that did it and the family from that part of the board. That part of the board isn't easy to get to in the first place - right now there are only 2 members. One is an admin and the other is a fake person.

Personally I feel that the new system will end up in less speculation and posting about those things since most people won't go through the hassle to get into that board, yet the option still exists so there isn't censorship - but the limited scope of the board will keep posting low.

Personally thought = the more I read this stuff, the more I think that someone got pissed off and directed the family to come here and read the stuff on the board just so they could get pissed off and e-mail the admins. Seems if that happened then the person that did that is the one rubbing the families nose in it.

food
08-09-2005, 09:18
There are several phases to the mourning process. The process is very personal and not everyone goes though all the phases or in the same order or even spends the same amount of time in each phase. One phase is anger and the family and friends will get mad at the deceased for "causing" their own death. However, this is not free fire zone to say hurtful things.

After most fatal incidents there will be a full write up and the situtation will be studied to see if the death could have been reasonably prevented. The first part of the process is gathering the facts and interviewing. The analysis should not start until the fact gathering has been completed.

Most of the time the comments are not about the deceased. Everytime there is a hiking related death someone will ask about it. I always tell my 20 yo daughter "they have not ruled out drinking and drugging." It has nothing to do with the death, but I can remind her of the dangers of substance abuse. For everyone else the incident was caused by lack of experience. I confide that I need to hike more to be safe.

A lot of the comments remind me of whistling by the graveyard.

RU98A
08-09-2005, 09:36
When you deal with death on a almost daily basis you get hardened to the fact that death is everywhere. U.S. Army Medical Corp. 1964-1966. I dealt with death almost daily for over 1 year in my stint in the Army, never did get used it just hardened to it.

Alligator
08-09-2005, 09:36
... BTW, in the test areas for sensitive discussion, one of the posts I felt still needed to be left deleted was your attack on someone else who I personally know as one of the more sensitive people here, it seemed very uncalled for given the tone of the conversation up to that point in the thread.

... Nah, he deserved it.


Personally I feel that the new system will end up in less speculation and posting about those things since most people won't go through the hassle to get into that board, yet the option still exists so there isn't censorship - but the limited scope of the board will keep posting low. LOL, all the rabble-rousers are in Non-AT discussion. It may be a reasonable compromise though.

SGT Rock
08-09-2005, 09:58
It isn't even going to be in that forum. But the good part about that forum is I work here and I didn't even know it exsisted for months.

dream
08-09-2005, 10:10
Hey 1SG! Ain't you supposed to be out hiking? So quit your jaw-jackin and hit the trail! Have a safe trip.

Alligator
08-09-2005, 10:20
I didn't give it much thought about where it would be located. I'm only suggesting that the folks likely to use it don't usually have low post counts:).

SGT Rock
08-09-2005, 11:15
I didn't give it much thought about where it would be located. I'm only suggesting that the folks likely to use it don't usually have low post counts:).
But those people are the WB addicts that can't get enough of posting anyway. Some of those folks go there just to play verbal chess as Blue Jay put it.

And most folks don't even know that forum exists, and steps have been taken to make this new one a little more secretive. The goal is to allow discussion by those that want to while letting those that don't stay out of it and at the same time not stick it out there to offend people.

I already went hiking Dream, unfortunately it wasn't that long. I wish I had more free time away from work to go for a long trip, but current situation precludes that. But I ain't complaining. At least I'm not sitting in the desert anymore. You make it back here and need a shuttle around this neck of the woods, just say the word.

Alligator
08-09-2005, 13:05
But those people are the WB addicts that can't get enough of posting anyway. Some of those folks go there just to play verbal chess as Blue Jay put it. Pretty much what I was alluding to, which is why I think post counts won't be low (average per thread at least). But that's all I'm saying here, I get this part


And most folks don't even know that forum exists, and steps have been taken to make this new one a little more secretive. The goal is to allow discussion by those that want to while letting those that don't stay out of it and at the same time not stick it out there to offend people.
P.S. Beats crack anyway:cool:.

One Leg
08-09-2005, 18:40
While in Fredricsburg, Va. this past Sunday, I witnessed a horrendous car accident. A small pickup truck busted through a red light, and was t-boned by a dodge full size truck. Result: the passanger in the smaller truck was killed instantly.

Discussing what happened won't make the victim any less dead, or bring closure to what happened to the surviving family members. However, there is a lot that can be learned by discussing the accident itself, and what could be done in the future by onlookers in order to prevent something like that from happening to them.

It's one thing to listen to a firsthand account from someone who was actually there. It's another thing entirely to stand back and listen to someone who was miles away when said accident occured talking about things that he/she has no firsthand knowledge of.

Such a forum would be beneficial only if one of the participants had firsthand knowledge of what took place. There are too many armchair quarterbacks as it is.

-Scott

Mini-Mosey
08-10-2005, 20:38
Justusryans: Wanted to thank you for your sharing. I, too, have encountered some real rocky times with mental/neurological health issues. Thank God, I'm much improved. Just wanted to say I appreciate your openness and honesty. Thanks.

Nightwalker
08-12-2005, 08:06
ah Death,,,or mortality,,something amerikans are frightened to face what with their youth worshipping culture.
Well, first off: those that know me know that I don't fear death. Second: Steve, I'd like you to try to keep that old leather carcass breathing long enough for me to run into you one day. You've already been blessed with a long life, considering. What's a little more, ya know?

:D

Edit: Removed repeated word.

justusryans
08-12-2005, 08:29
Justusryans: Wanted to thank you for your sharing. I, too, have encountered some real rocky times with mental/neurological health issues. Thank God, I'm much improved. Just wanted to say I appreciate your openness and honesty. Thanks.
No problem, It's not something I'm sensitive about. Most people have a negative view of mentally ill people. A$$holes like Tom Cruise sure don't help. I try to educate people that we are no different than anyone else. We have the same hopes, dreams, and fears. We just have a additional cross to bear.
Thanks for your kind words!:D

smokymtnsteve
08-12-2005, 23:44
Well, first off: those that know me know that I don't fear death. Second: Steve, I'd like you to try to keep that old leather carcass breathing long enough for me to run into you one day. You've already been blessed with a long life, considering. What's a little more, ya know?

:D

Edit: Removed repeated word.


well come on up this winter and help me run run these dogs frank...also at my new job we got a couple of horses so we can also go for sleigh ride!

I ain't giving up anytime soon,,,shot I got me a new lady friend up here in AK...real AK girl...knows how to sharpen a draw knife and cook a big pot of beans on a woodstove...girl can handle a dog team too..

so I