View Full Version : Campsite question
While looking at the gps files from Backpacker.com, I notice that there are campsites and unofficial campsites. What is the difference between these two terms? Is the use of the unofficial campsites frowned upon?
Thank you in advance,
Glen
Slo-go'en
08-25-2013, 19:25
Unofficial campsites are places where people tend to camp along the side of the trail because there happens to be a flat spot there or water near-by. Just about any place there is a side trail to a spring, there will be an unofficial campsite near-by. These sites tend to be small, just big enough for one or two tents.
Official campsites will be a bit more developed, fire rings, logs to sit on, maybe a privy and so on.
Just Bill
08-25-2013, 19:53
Morally speaking- A purist would only use official sites. The rest of us though use un-official sites all the time. It's just a nice spot to stay like Slo mentioned that isn't officially planned or maintained by anyone. Secretly official folks don't mind these sites as using them is a better alternative to folks from plopping down all over the place. So moral of the story- using an established site, no matter who established it, is preferred to disturbing a "virgin" site.
You may also hear the term "stealth camping". You'll get some other opinions on the subject but it has two meanings:
Ray Way Stealth Camping (coined by Ray Jardine)- Camping in a non established site using not just LNT practices, but going even further to erase your presence as completely as possible. No cooking or other camp chores are performed at a stealth site to minimize impact. Your purpose is simply to sleep- your goal is to disappear the next morning- hence the term. Mainly used by higher mileage folks with experience in choosing low impact sites and covering up their presence the following morning.
The other Stealth Camping- The nice way to define it is staying at a non-established site. A well meaning hiker who comes across one of the "un-official" sites you mentioned and sleeps. LNT rules are generally followed, but often bent a bit regarding distance from the trail and/or water sources. A good example- Matt Kirk walked until 10 pm and went to sleep in a random spot along the trail...stealth camping.
The not nice way to define it- and the not nice way to practice it- stealth camping refers to camping illegally to dodge a fee or for other nefarious purposes. This is crappy, no matter how impure your hiking style. Ripping off the people who take care of the trail to dodge a $5 dollar fee is a no-no. Good examples of such vinegar filled cleansing bags include people who camp 100 yards past a paid site to avoid paying for the site, frequently after availing themselves of the services provided at that site.
Stealing a free night in town- sleeping in a little league dugout, graveyard, quite corner of a public park- those are all cool with me. Take the $ you saved in town and spend it on the trail if you're that poor. If your day carries you past a paid site- then it does- but stealing from the trail is not cool. Cool?
max patch
08-25-2013, 19:59
Nothing "immoral" at all about camping at an "unofficial" site as long as camping is not specifically prohibited at said location.
upstream
08-25-2013, 20:05
On the National Forest land in Georgia, you can camp anywhere that isn't posted "no camping". On the AT, the developed campsites are generally kept free of widow makers. There are many good campsites that aren't. some good "socially developed" campsites have resulted in real damage to riparian areas, resulting in trail reroutes to help heal them.
Then there is LNT point 2 "Travel and camp on durable surfaces".
Another Kevin
08-25-2013, 20:51
Morally speaking- A purist would only use official sites. The rest of us though use un-official sites all the time. It's just a nice spot to stay like Slo mentioned that isn't officially planned or maintained by anyone. Secretly official folks don't mind these sites as using them is a better alternative to folks from plopping down all over the place. So moral of the story- using an established site, no matter who established it, is preferred to disturbing a "virgin" site.
You may also hear the term "stealth camping". You'll get some other opinions on the subject but it has two meanings:
Ray Way Stealth Camping (coined by Ray Jardine)- Camping in a non established site using not just LNT practices, but going even further to erase your presence as completely as possible. No cooking or other camp chores are performed at a stealth site to minimize impact. Your purpose is simply to sleep- your goal is to disappear the next morning- hence the term. Mainly used by higher mileage folks with experience in choosing low impact sites and covering up their presence the following morning.
A purist will use only official sites? Since when? Purists use official sites, lean-to's, stealth sites, hostels and motels in town, whatever. They simply insist on passing all the white blazes.
Using an established site - mo matter who established it - is preferable to disturbing a "virgin" site if the land management strategy is to consider the established sites sacrificial. I hike in places where "disperse the impact" is a rule, and the authorities and trail volunteers try to disguise established sites and discourage establishing more - breaking fire rings, pulling brush over areas where people have tented repeatedly, and suchlike. And I hike in other places where "concentrate the impact" is the rule to the extent that stealth-camping is unlawful.
Over the years, I've gotten to be a halfway decent hand at finding a good stealth site. For me, "good" means at least 150-200 feet from a trail, road or water source, and on a fairly durable surface (snow, rock, sand, or dry duff). I don't generally cook right by my tent, to avoid problems with critters, but have no issue with other camp chores, in fact, a good stealth site is far enough off the trail that it's a good place to bathe, for instance. (Washwater goes in a cathole or sprinkled over a wide area, depending on conditions and the preferences of the landowner.)
I might even light my stove for my morning coffee before I head off, because then I'll be walking away from the cooking scents. But not too often because I probably hung my bearbag closer to the trail and I'll find somewhere else to have breakfast. Of course, before I pack up, I'll use a cathole if the urge strikes.
But I build no campfire at a stealth site. and I sweep the site (with whatever dead brush I can find) and/or spread brush around it in the morning to make it look less attractive for the next camper. I'll "improve" the site to no greater an extent than perhaps rolling aside the rock that's otherwise right under where I want to put my tent.
I dont know if this is Ray Way or not. But it works for me.
?.. the gps files from Backpacker.com ...
Glen
I looked at the Backpacker.com website (the magazine) and did not find any GPS data. Did you mean the Backpacker or Backpacker Pro App?
Cvt
I would expect an official campsite to be large enough for at least a couple of standard backpacking tents. I would also expect there to be more trash, critters and people. More often than not I will chose a small flattish spot that would go by JustBills term of stealth. Having a small shelter, or not using a shelter, makes this option much easier than having to find space for palatial accommodations.
ChuckT - I went to the backpacker.com website, and then to the trails (I think it is called Destinations) Then I found the trail that I wanted. On the right side is a section headed Trip Tools Powered by Trimble Outdoors. There is an icon for downloading a gpx file. You have to be an elite member to do this. I think the membership is about $3 a month or $30 a year. You can get 14 free days when you join, but the require payment thru Paypal. I hope I can get all my downloads in my trial period.
Just Bill
08-25-2013, 21:54
AK- forgive me I wasn't clear- I was referring to purists in the LNT/follow all the rules sense of the word, not in the blazing sense. Like you, I'm more of a generalist at heart, I occasionally forget we're generally talking AT specific.
I agree with you on the land management practices issues- while common sense is occasionally in short supply- I think most of us can tell a site has been "closed for business" and shouldn't be used. I've talked to folks in different areas of the country and they generally tell me that's the deal- if they don't want you there they will tear it down; otherwise they left the site there as either the sacrifice or just the simple fact that people will use it rather than create another in a worse spot. I'd like to hear from more maintainers- in a general sense. The simplest thing is to say don't use any un-official sites. As mentioned, some areas plain old adopt that strategy. My personal opinion is to educate on how to establish and use a stealth site properly.
The whole premise of Ray Way stealth camping is to not just promote "disperse the impact" but to take it one step further by removing your site to the point that other than sheer dumb luck- another hiker would never use it again. Basically the main difference is that the site is a place to sleep- so it's not that perfect ledge shelf near the babbling brook- it's an out of the way spot that will never be used again- partially because there isn't anything special about the site. By reducing camp chores, you reduce damage to the site- making it easier to hide it the next morning.
Basically Kevin- you got it. :D I met a fair amount of hikers, mainly youngsters, who don't.
Durable surfaces is a definition that slides with experience and common sense. What's a better choice- Sleep directly on the trail (durable surface) but violate the 200' rule OR tromp off into the brush and follow the 200' rule but make tracks in and out? Many would argue- option C- continue to hike until an established site can be found. I would say camp on the trail. When you graduate to camping on forest duff and other non-traditional durable surfaces then reducing foot traffic becomes part of reducing your impact. Not cooking at the site reduces the chances of an animal encounter- another form of disturbance. Do I agree 100% with all that- not always- but the principal is sound. Generally, no dinner but a bit of hot water in the AM is a grey area I'm plenty comfy with.
The basic premise/strategy of Ray Way Stealth is to use an established site near your intended stay for the night. Do your tromping back and forth to gather and treat water, cook your meal, wash up, etc. at the established site. Hike on for another 30-60 minutes (or more) and find a site. It's a dry camp, no fire, no cooking, minimal activity, it's just to sleep, it follows LNT, YOU consider the surface durable (IE-you are comfortable with your skill level to erase your presence and restore the surface in the morning), the trail into and out of the site disappears or is minimized to prevent others from using it again. Basically- it never happened. Generally- the site has no "appeal" to draw future hikers in- no water, no view, no trail- just another place along the trail.
Another Kevin
08-25-2013, 23:26
AK- forgive me I wasn't clear- I was referring to purists in the LNT/follow all the rules sense of the word, not in the blazing sense. Like you, I'm more of a generalist at heart, I occasionally forget we're generally talking AT specific.
Gotcha! Then we're definitely reading from the same page. And I have very little use for the LNT purists - eventually they fall into imposing a standard that says, "if you're not me, don't go, because any human presence (other than mine?) will leave some trace." Everything needs to be tempered with common sense.
I wonder what the LNT purists would say about the fact that about a third of my hikes involve some good old map-n-compass bushwhacking? Even the local trail maintenance organization says (http://www.nynjtc.org/park/catskill-park),
Hundreds of miles of trails of all degrees of difficulty invite the hiker to this varied and delightful area. Although a great deal of the forest land in the Catskills can be explored using marked trails, hikers can find out what the wilderness is really like only by "getting off the beaten path." Trailless travel, or bushwhacking, often leads to interesting discoveries - a little-known waterfall, a balanced rock, or one of the remains of the mountain industries of the last century. Best of all, bushwhacking heightens the hiker's awareness of the environment.
Which sounds as if The Authorities, at least locally, approve of the practice. But when I do that, I'm surely not "camping only at official sites!" (And they really need to update that blurb: the 19th Century is no longer "the last century.")
Oh, well, it's a wider world than purists (of any stripe) see.
I did a lot of unofficial sites on the days I ran out of gas....sometimes I just set up on the trail, others in a flat safe place...
fredmugs
08-28-2013, 17:25
You have to remember that all of those GPS tracks on Backpacker / Trimble are just files that some person did and posted. The good thing about those files is you can get additional data - the bad of course is that the data may not be applicable to your hike. This is especially true for water sources. Some campsites are great is you're hammocking but worthless if you have a tent. And vice versa.
One note on camping on trail...... If you choose to do this then don't complain if folks wake you up late evening, at night or early the next morning. I know I woke up several tents of thru hikers just north of Pearisburg because they clustered their tents directly on the trail. I came through just after dark, hiking with my headlamp. I didn't feel a bit bad.
Just Bill
10-05-2013, 20:08
Ray Way Stealth Camping- Lye Brook Wilderness. Note the fire. Now you see me, now you don't. 243242432524326
Wise Old Owl
10-05-2013, 20:13
On the National Forest land in Georgia, you can camp anywhere that isn't posted "no camping". On the AT, the developed campsites are generally kept free of widow makers. There are many good campsites that aren't. some good "socially developed" campsites have resulted in real damage to riparian areas, resulting in trail reroutes to help heal them.
Then there is LNT point 2 "Travel and camp on durable surfaces".
+1 Keep in mind even Earl Shaffer ended up on a porch or two in a down pour.... Unless there is an arrogant ridge runner, try to follow the rules...Just Bill what are you talking about?
WOO - many of stealthily camp legally in spots most wouldn't consider and leave the next morning without any trace.
lush242000
10-05-2013, 20:36
Most if my LNT education was on the Salmon River in the Frank Church Wilderness.
1. No trash left behind.
2. You carry your solid waste and products with it out.
3. You build a fire in a pan and carry all ashes out.
4. Leave it better than you found it.
Anyhow. That's not a total list but you get the idea. If you follow the guidelines you could camp anywhere and never leave a trace.
When I am on the AT I seldom camp at shelter sites. I walk till I get tired.
Sent from somewhere.
Wise Old Owl
10-05-2013, 20:45
WOO - many of stealthily camp legally in spots most wouldn't consider and leave the next morning without any trace.
We are on the same page.
Sometimes I think camping in established site will perpetuate even more damage to the the area and make it an even more undesirable place to camp. I try to minimize as much evidence that I stayed in an "unauthorized" camp site as possible, and honestly it isnt that difficult.
Another Kevin
10-06-2013, 00:13
[Oops... I didn't see my earlier post in the thread and started repeating myself.]
Just Bill
10-06-2013, 11:14
Lol, yar we had it all worked out AK. Woo- I think we're roosting in the same tree bud. Sorry for the confussion- I was going through my pics and recalled this thread discussion and tossed in some photos to show what we were previously discussing, but had not discussed for some time, which led to the confussion just caused.
[QUOTE]On the National Forest land in Georgia, you can camp anywhere that isn't posted "no camping". On the AT, the developed campsites are generally kept free of widow makers. There are many good campsites that aren't. some good "socially developed" campsites have resulted in real damage to riparian areas, resulting in trail reroutes to help heal them.[QUOTE/]
What is a widowmaker?
HooKooDooKu
11-20-2013, 09:43
What is a widowmaker?
Dead tree branch that might fall on your tent in the middle of the night (creating a widow... under the assumption you are a married male).
After hiking 25+ miles a day every single day, it doesn't mater if it's an official site or not, you will camp their, just leave the site in better condition than you found it when you leave, and no it's not frowned upon to stay at an unoffical site, in fact i prefer to STEALTH camp.