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firesign
09-04-2013, 11:26
Hi Guys,


I have read so many articles on hoisting a food bag into the trees, and in principle, I agree.

I have however, never read an article about also hoisting one's rubbish bag into the trees. If the scent of one's food is so important, then why not the rubbish bag also, or am I just missing the plot?


I appreciate your time in responding,

Best

Firesign

hikerboy57
09-04-2013, 11:29
if you do hang your food, you do hang your trash with it, as well as toiletries or any other scented items.

Lone Wolf
09-04-2013, 11:31
i've never hung food or trash so for me hangin' it is BS

Rocket Jones
09-04-2013, 11:35
If you're going to hang, hang everything that smells such as food, trash, toiletries (toothpaste, etc), and cookpot.

firesign
09-04-2013, 11:47
If you're going to hang, hang everything that smells such as food, trash, toiletries (toothpaste, etc), and cookpot.

Im not taking the P*ss here, but what about our own body odour to a Bear? (whether we wash or not)

Ive never been attacked by a Black Bear, but I assume that they are smart enough to detect the the real meaty substance inside the tent?

Best,

Firesign

fredmugs
09-04-2013, 11:57
Im not taking the P*ss here, but what about our own body odour to a Bear? (whether we wash or not)

Ive never been attacked by a Black Bear, but I assume that they are smart enough to detect the the real meaty substance inside the tent?

Best,

Firesign

A real meaty substance that can kill them. Based on no scientific evidence whatsoever I believe you can sleep with your food because the bear smells the food that it wants and the human it has learned to avoid. This theory (for me) only applies to black bears.

Slo-go'en
09-04-2013, 11:59
Ive never been attacked by a Black Bear, but I assume that they are smart enough to detect the the real meaty substance inside the tent?

They have been known to go after the food smells on clothes you bring into the tent. Try not to use your pants legs as a place to wipe your hands. That's usually the reason boy scouts are pulled out of tents by bears. In Grizzly country they recommend hanging the clothes you cook in too.

freeholden
09-04-2013, 12:31
I sleep with my food, unless I'm sleeping in a shelter and everyone else is using the bear cables. I'll hang then anf go with the flow and avoid the argument with " that one guy". No big deal...

Odd Man Out
09-04-2013, 12:31
Im not taking the P*ss here, but what about our own body odour to a Bear? (whether we wash or not)

Ive never been attacked by a Black Bear, but I assume that they are smart enough to detect the the real meaty substance inside the tent?

Best,

Firesign

Disclaimer - all of my reading on this subject is based on black bears in the Eastern US. Grizzlies out west are entirely different.

Almost never are Black Bears going after you. There are very very few confirmed cases of predatory black bears (i.e. ones that attack and eat humans). When you read cases about bear "attacks", it is important to keep in mind the context. In almost every case the bear is either defending itself because it feels threatened or it is going after food. So it is not entirely accurate to classify these as "attacks". Assuming that you don't go out of your way to piss off the bear, we are talking about the latter problem - the bear going after your food. There was a case where a bear took a swipe at a woman's head through the tent wall. It seems she had used melon scented shampoo (even the EMTs noticed the smell). I'm sure the bear though he had found a cantaloupe and was disappointed to discover it was just one of those scary human heads. So in fact smelling like a human is an important part of bear defense. I asked a well known bear expert on this and he put it this way. The reality is that the bear's fear of you is much greater than its desire to get your food.

All of this explains a number of things. One, if you are going to hang you food, you should in theory also hang anything that smells like food (toiletries, food waste, cooking pots, etc...). Two - be sure to smell like a human. The bear's sense of smell is way better than ours so cleaning up with unscented soap is OK - he is going to smell you no matter what - but don't mask your odor with food scented toiletries. Three - sleeping with your food (as is done by many on this site) is a reasonable strategy depending on your comfort level. Bears go after food hung on trees very often, but cases of bears going after food in tents occupied by a human are rare. Even rarer are bears going after food in a backpack worn by a hiker. All of this is consistent with the "bear is more afraid of you" principle. But hanging your food is also a reasonable solution. It lowers the chance of a bear coming in your tent looking for food (but probably only by a small amount since it's a low probability event to start with), but also increases the probability of the bear getting your food, and if you hang your food poorly, I would guess that probability goes up by a lot. That's not good for the hiker and even worse for the bear.

Colter
09-04-2013, 12:37
They have been known to go after the food smells on clothes you bring into the tent...That's usually the reason boy scouts are pulled out of tents by bears. In Grizzly country they recommend hanging the clothes you cook in too.

The first two phrases are speculative. I have never in my life known an experienced backpacker in the real world to hang cooking clothing.

Sly
09-04-2013, 12:38
If you're going to hang your food use the PCT method (Google/Youtube it)

Sly
09-04-2013, 12:42
The first two phrases are speculative. I have never in my life known an experienced backpacker in the real world to hang cooking clothing.

Hiking with a group on the CDT, unless it was required (Glacier/Yellowstone) we were really lax in Griz country, eating in our tents, and sleeping with our food.

When I went back solo a few years later, I typically used the PCT method, for food only, in Griz country.

BirdBrain
09-04-2013, 12:58
I hang my food and trash. I only boil water in my cook set. No need to hang that. When I am being watched by another hiker, I usually say that I am hanging my raccoon bag. I am more worried about them getting into my food than a bear. I don't see this as a big deal. I don't care if other people have differing methods. That is their business. For me, I just don't see the down side.

Grampie
09-04-2013, 13:15
HANGING YOUR FOOD AND TREATING YOUR WATER FALLS INTO THE SAME CATAGORY...."iT'S BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN TO BE SORRY."

moldy
09-04-2013, 13:40
To the OP. It’s doubtful that hanging your food bag will help protect you on your hike. However it is a fair theory that if all hikers act to keep bears from getting hiker food it will, in the long run, teach the bears that interacting with hikers won’t result in getting food. Once bears learn that hikers won’t feed them then the number of human/bear problems will be reduced. It’s a nice theory that for the most part does not work. There are many hikers who just won’t go along. There are humans who feed the bears along the Appalachian Trail so they can see a bear. I recently observed a guy with a little tiny kid just off the trail seated next to a tree in the late evening. It was inside SNP, he had a nice pile of dog food 20 yards away. There he was camera at the ready. I said, see anything?. Not yet. When I got to the nearby shelter I called the Rangers number that was posted there and let them know. Telling all the hikers to hang their food is also an easy cop-out for the Forrest Service and Park Service who would otherwise have to act on all hiker/bear incidents by doing something other than to hang up some signs. So if some hiker gets hurt or worse, they can say that the hikers were warned with all the signs we hung up. The future of the trail calls for more hikers. This is not good news for the bears. If there was a ton of enforcement, patrols, with big fines, we could turn this around. More signs won’t cut it.

CarlZ993
09-04-2013, 13:47
I guess hanging your food depends what may get your food in the locale you're backpacking in (& how diligent they'll be to try to get it) . Some places, like the Nat'l Parks in the Sierras, require a bear canister. Black bears there are known to get properly bear-bagged food that would foil the efforts of AT bears. Plus, they are used to people. I've had bears walk into my camp on multiple occasions while in the Sierras. In car camping locales in the the Sierra parks, you can't even keep food in your vehicle. The bears will break into your vehicle to get food. Other locales - such as the Grand Canyon - squirrels are the main worry. Along the AT, I was mainly worried about mice getting to my food. They did once (inside a cabin @ Harrison's Pierce Pond Camp).

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If you lose your food, it will probably come at the worse time. Days from resupply. Keep you food properly secured for the conditions you are camping in.

BirdBrain
09-04-2013, 13:48
HANGING YOUR FOOD AND TREATING YOUR WATER FALLS INTO THE SAME CATAGORY...."iT'S BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN TO BE SORRY."

That is where I am at. I feel the odds are extremely low that my food would be tampered with if I slept with it. If a bag is hung properly the odds approach zero. The sad part is many do not know how to hang a bag. I showed many hikers on my recent trip how to do it properly (if they showed an interest). There were a couple times that I slept with my food because there was not a suitable place to hang it.

You are correct to link this to the water treating debate. Many people think they have that all figured out. I filter everything. Is it overkill? Absolutely. However, I am not the guy that had his hike interrupted by a hospital stay because of drinking bad water. Ran into one such fellow. Guess what? He is filtering now.

firesign
09-04-2013, 13:54
Based on your experience.

If the scent of one's food is so important, then why not the rubbish bag also, or am I just missing the plot?


I appreciate your time in responding,

BirdBrain
09-04-2013, 13:58
Based on your experience.

If the scent of one's food is so important, then why not the rubbish bag also, or am I just missing the plot?


I appreciate your time in responding,

Absolutely the rubbish bag should be hoisted. Quite frankly the rubbish bag is more important to hang than the food. The food is less likely to stink than the rubbish is. My rubbish is the used freezer bags that I use in my cozy and a few small things. Yes, the cozy gets hung too and the spoon.

BirdBrain
09-04-2013, 14:02
One more post to the OP: It is very possible to hang your food wrong and run a much higher risk of having it tampered with than if you sleep with it. I am convinced that the odds are extremely low of the food being tampered with if you sleep with it (especially if you use a odor proof bag). This is a matter of your comfort level. Figure out what will work good for you and ignore the noise.

Sarcasm the elf
09-04-2013, 14:44
Im not taking the P*ss here, but what about our own body odour to a Bear? (whether we wash or not)

Ive never been attacked by a Black Bear, but I assume that they are smart enough to detect the the real meaty substance inside the tent?

Best,

Firesign

When it comes to the Appalachian Trail, bears are quite possibly the most overhyped fear that newcomers have. Black bears are very different from the much larger and more powerful grizzly bears that live out west. Black bears are (mostly) harmless to humans and most of us look forward to seeing them when we hike.

It is in a black bear's nature to run from humans, this includes mothers and cubs (all the famous mother and cubs attacks involve grizzly bears) On average less that one person per year is killed in all of north america by a black bear, and most commonly this involves a starving young male bear in remote regions of canada. Black bear attacks are so rare that they can be considered a friek occurrence.

With all that said, the purpose of using a bear bag in black bear country is to prevent bears from associating humans with a food source. Bears that learn they can find food near humans become a nusiance and once this happens they are at risk of being relocated or put down by the authorities. Basically a fed bear is a dead bear and proper food storage is key to preventing this.

If you would like more info, check out this site: http://www.bear.org/website/

Namtrag
09-04-2013, 15:10
I hung a bear bag just once, doing a perfect PCT method hang using a piece of pvc pipe with a hole drilled in it. When I went to get it down the next morning, it got snagged and after spending 15 minutes trying to free the snag, I had to cut the rope with a knife to get my bag down. Swore never to hang again, and went and bought a bear canister for future use, which we use when we have doubts about the bear population. I can't remember the last time we saw evidence of a bear on our trips.

BirdBrain
09-04-2013, 15:19
I hung a bear bag just once, doing a perfect PCT method hang using a piece of pvc pipe with a hole drilled in it. When I went to get it down the next morning, it got snagged and after spending 15 minutes trying to free the snag, I had to cut the rope with a knife to get my bag down. Swore never to hang again, and went and bought a bear canister for future use, which we use when we have doubts about the bear population. I can't remember the last time we saw evidence of a bear on our trips.

Use a stick next time that is strong enough to hold the weight of the bag, but is weak enough to snap if it gets hung up. Not that hard to find. All of this takes practice. I hung my fair share of bags less than perfect until I got the bugs worked out.

RED-DOG
09-04-2013, 18:35
I always hang my trash with my food, Put trash in Zip-Lock bags then inside of your food bag and hang but a lot of times i sleep with it, if i use my tent.

Venchka
09-04-2013, 18:46
Tent gnawing, backpack shredding, boot eating porcupines are to be feared.
"Be afraid. Be very afraid!"

Wayne

MuddyWaters
09-04-2013, 20:06
Your food is safer with you, than hanging.

You are safer, on the AT very marginally, with your food hanging away from you.

In some other areas, you are much safer with food hanging.

The question is, do you sleep better knowing your food is safe? Or knowing that you are less likely to have an encounter with an aggressive bear?

I wear earplugs. Sleep good that way.

Bags4266
09-04-2013, 20:38
Not worried about bears, just don't want rodents chewing through my tent.

quasarr
09-04-2013, 21:03
Keep in mind, wild black bears are generally afraid of humans and will run away the second they see you. The problem comes with bears that are used to eating human food. Now, where would a bear learn this behavior? Most problems happen in camp grounds accessible by car - places that are packed with irresponsible chumps who leave food unsupervised, don't pack out trash, etc.

If you camp in an area farther from roads, the chance that a bear with bother you drops to nearly zero. I never hung my food on the PCT and I don't know of any hikers who did. However that trail is more remote than the AT, so it's easier to get away from the chumps. :)

And like others have said, black bears don't want to eat YOU. They want your food! So if you hang your food, don't forget to include all your toiletries... Bears have been known to eat sunscreen!

MuddyWaters
09-04-2013, 21:25
Keep in mind, wild black bears are generally afraid of humans and will run away the second they see you.

Better phrased as SOME black bears are generally afraid.
Never all.

One laid down and just watched me one day. We looked at each other for a min or 2 before I decided to give it its space. It doesnt have a contract saying it has to run. Maybe if I got closer than 40 ft it would have, but it was comfortable at that range between us.

However , just like deer, they are bolder at night. They are actually nocturnal.

Even if they have never recieved food, they can get used to peoples presence, and tolerate them and live in close proximity. Just like deer, or ducks.

stranger
09-05-2013, 07:46
Complete BS...just go down to Georgia and start walking, don't hand anything, see how that goes : )

Lone Wolf
09-05-2013, 07:48
Complete BS...just go down to Georgia and start walking, don't hand anything, see how that goes : )

i did that for 14 years in a row. never hung a thing.

stranger
09-05-2013, 07:51
I have PCT hanged hundreds of times on the AT, if you know how to pick a good branch and hang your food, trash and toiletries...you won't have any problems...IF you pick a good branch AND execute a good hang that is.

stranger
09-05-2013, 07:53
i did that for 14 years in a row. never hung a thing.

When Lone Wolf? Bears weren't an issue outside the Smokies and NJ for a long time, it's different story now days, I never threw a bear once in 1995, but that was a long time ago, etc...

rocketsocks
09-05-2013, 07:59
Bears are pissed, and tired of all the spoils man...it's a brave new world.:D

Nooga
09-05-2013, 08:08
I always keep my trash and pot in my food bag. I use the pot to store food items such as pop tarts to protect them, plus conserve space. I typically hang my food bag to keep it away from mice, but don't worry about bears if I keep it in the tent. I think a poorly hung food bag is the worst. Last year at Carter Gap, a hiker had hung his food bag about head high. He asked what my opinion, and I told him that it was perfect for a bear. He moved it, but it was still accessible by a bear.

ChuckT
09-05-2013, 08:47
20 years of hiking, 1970 - 1990s; one (1) bear, on the AT East 1/2 of the GSMNP (I forgot which shelter). However - same era in Canada, never saw the critter, saw the paw-print next day on an out-and-back. Size of a large frying pan. Was it following me? Don't know. Don't want to find out either.
Only one negative encounter, same GSMNP hike, squirrel or other rodent chewed into my pack, external pocket, broad daylight. Took all the cute out of "them" for me.

cvt

garlic08
09-05-2013, 09:15
When I hang my food it is to protect, in this order; 1) my food, 2) my tent, 3) my sorry a$$. If you can throw a rock over a 20' high tree limb, with a few days practice it's a two-minute job and it's a good skill to have in many areas. Trash and toiletries go in the bag, for sure.

I sometimes leave my site after I pitch camp and I don't like carrying my food bag with me. I once had a ferret destroy my pack and several other things to get to my food in that pack. That took less than five minutes when I went 25' down to a stream to get water. I never leave my food unattended and unprotected any more.

There are occasions on a long hike I'll get to a remote virgin campsite above treeline and at dark, completely spent, having eaten hours ago, when I'll throw the bag in the tent and sleep with it. I know there are no habituated animals, hanging will be a problem, and I'm not leaving the site until I start hiking again next morning. I did just that last week on my hike across the Uintas (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?98120-Uintas-Highline-Trail-photos)with Mags, for example.

BirdBrain
09-05-2013, 09:39
Many people have mentioned toiletries. I don't hang those. Maybe I should. I use unscented Dr Bronner's for soap, unscented travel size tissue for tp, baking soda for toothpaste, and repackaged purell for sanitizer. Honest question: Why would I hang these? I might need the tp and purell in the middle of the night. That leaves the Dr. Bronner and baking soda. Is that really an issue? I can't get unscented food, but can get unscented toiletries. Not being a smart-ass. This is an honest question.

Odd Man Out
09-05-2013, 09:58
Many people have mentioned toiletries. I don't hang those. Maybe I should. I use unscented Dr Bronner's for soap, unscented travel size tissue for tp, baking soda for toothpaste, and repackaged purell for sanitizer. Honest question: Why would I hang these? I might need the tp and purell in the middle of the night. That leaves the Dr. Bronner and baking soda. Is that really an issue? I can't get unscented food, but can get unscented toiletries. Not being a smart-ass. This is an honest question.

I think you are correct that unscented toiletries are not much of a concern, although natural soap is made from vegetable oil or animal fat so may smell like food to a bear. I would guess that a lot of the rules are "conventional wisdom" based on assumptions (such as most toiletries are scented) or "better safe than sorry" over-reactions (such as the bear-rule at one park where we had to store water containers in our car).

Odd Man Out
09-05-2013, 10:08
Better phrased as SOME black bears are generally afraid.
Never all.

One laid down and just watched me one day. We looked at each other for a min or 2 before I decided to give it its space. It doesnt have a contract saying it has to run. Maybe if I got closer than 40 ft it would have, but it was comfortable at that range between us.

However , just like deer, they are bolder at night. They are actually nocturnal.

Even if they have never recieved food, they can get used to peoples presence, and tolerate them and live in close proximity. Just like deer, or ducks.

True - However the Bear Research Center says that it is a myth that a bear habituated to human contact is more dangerous. In fact they claim habituated bears are less dangerous. This makes sense to me for two reasons. One is that a lot of bear "attacks" are defensive actions by bears that are afraid of people. Habituated bears are less likely to act this way. Second, a habituated bear is much more likely to encounter bear-phobic humans who overreact.

http://www.bear.org/website/bear-pages/black-bear/myths-a-misconceptions/58-myth-when-bears-lose-their-fear-of-people-they-become-more-likely-to-attack.html

max patch
09-05-2013, 10:49
I'm not going to get into the bear bag or sleep with your food argument. I will say that if you bear bag your food don't take the easy way out and throw your bag over a tree limb and then tie off the rope around the tree trunk. Bears in GA know how to beat that system.

Dogwood
09-05-2013, 11:04
Is Hoisting a food bag really just BS?
It's just the makers of Spectra trying to sell you more over priced useless crap.

The principle is correct. It works to safeguard your food, gear, sometimes yourself, others and the wild nature of animals. Seriously, hang everything that has an odor with your food and it works. WHEN DONE WISELY.

Sarcasm the elf
09-05-2013, 15:14
Complete BS...just go down to Georgia and start walking, don't hand anything, see how that goes : )

Since you mention it, I'm aware of the problems they've been having in southern Georgia, but does anyone know if there have been cases of the bears sucessfully getting bags that were properly hung with PCT method?

Usually my food bag is my pillow, but I plan to be hiking in this area in a month or two, so i'm interested in knowing if there are any additional precautions i need to take.

Another Kevin
09-05-2013, 18:06
Since you mention it, I'm aware of the problems they've been having in southern Georgia, but does anyone know if there have been cases of the bears sucessfully getting bags that were properly hung with PCT method?

Usually my food bag is my pillow, but I plan to be hiking in this area in a month or two, so i'm interested in knowing if there are any additional precautions i need to take.

Yellow-Yellow, the genius bear of the Eastern High Peaks, in addition to knowing how to open a BearVault, had learnt the trick of sending a cub out on a branch to bite through a PCT bearbag line. (A branch that was not strong enough to support a cub securely would be thin enough that Yellow-Yellow could break it herself.)

While she was since shot, her legacy lives on in that NYSDEC requires hikers in the Eastern High Peaks from April through November to use bear canisters other than BearVault - which in practice means Garcia. No homemade canisters, no hangs.

I don't know whether the human-adjusted bears in Georgia are that smart. Isn't it still the case that canisters are required along only about a five-mile stretch of the Trail? Easy enough to plan stops to avoid the section in question, if that's the case.

Theosus
09-05-2013, 20:00
If you're going to hang your food use the PCT method (Google/Youtube it)

Love this method. Not only does it work pretty well, it provides my hiking mates with at least five minutes of sheer, belly-shaking, rolling-in-the-dirt laughter.

After which they usually say "hey, I don't have any rope, can I hang my food with yours?"

Another Kevin
09-05-2013, 22:12
Where canisters aren't required, the PCT hang is definitely the way to go.

One refinement is to coil the line (Assuming you know how to do so properly so that it won't tangle when paid out!) before running it up to the toggle, with a loop tied on the end securing the coil. Let go and let the coil and toggle run up to the 'biner so that there's nothing that you (or a bear) can reach from the ground. When it comes time to retrieve the bag, reach up and snag the loop with a trekking pole so that the coiled line drops down to you, and then do the usual drill of hauling down and removing the toggle.

BirdBrain
09-06-2013, 00:21
Since we are offering tips on the PCT method, I will offer one too. After the loop and half hitch is tied on the retaining stick and before letting the stick slide up to the carabiner, step back a few feet from under the bag while holding tension on the para-cord. This will create an angle for the stick to slide by the bag. Slowly let gravity do its work until the stick is in place. Do the opposite in the morning. Doing this will remove the possibility of the stick getting snagged on the bag. I learned this trick the hard way. Having an approach angle makes it easy to see how the stick is going to contact the carabiner. Sometimes it takes a second for the stick to be in the correct position. You can see any potential issues this way and wait until it is going to contact the carabiner properly.

q-tip
09-06-2013, 09:47
I am in the Safe-Dry-Warm school of outdoor priorities. My thinking is; it's a pain to hang, but it only has to happen once that my tent gets attacked by anything. I sleep much better at night knowing that won't happen.

stranger
09-06-2013, 19:37
Complete BS...just go down to Georgia and start walking, don't hand anything, see how that goes : )

For the record this is me being sarcastic...I recommend hanging your food, use the PCT method, patience and your brain and you will be fine.

I recommend a silky rope for ease of hoisting and an oversized, waterproof, roll-down stuff sack that will hold all your food, trash, toiletries and cook pots

Sarcasm the elf
09-06-2013, 19:48
For the record this is me being sarcastic...I recommend hanging your food, use the PCT method, patience and your brain and you will be fine.

I recommend a silky rope for ease of hoisting and an oversized, waterproof, roll-down stuff sack that will hold all your food, trash, toiletries and cook pots

Trust me, I caught the sarcasm. The incidents in Georgia always leave me wondering if they are the caused by very clever bears, or by very lousy bear bag hangs. I'm hoping that the problem is due to the latter.

Game Warden
09-06-2013, 20:13
You should hang anything that might be attractive to bears--food, trash, etc. You do this for the bears' sake not yours, so people like me don't have to deal with "bear attack" stories in the media. If you have S'mores in your tent, and the fat dumb happy bear wants you to share, the media will report it as BEAR ATTACKS HIKER and people will demand that I shoot the bear.

BirdBrain
09-06-2013, 20:15
I am right there with you GW... up until the tip on hanging my friend S'mores in my foodbag. I am not sure she would fit or appreciate it.

stranger
09-07-2013, 08:26
Trust me, I caught the sarcasm. The incidents in Georgia always leave me wondering if they are the caused by very clever bears, or by very lousy bear bag hangs. I'm hoping that the problem is due to the latter.

On my 2008 hike I saw very few competent hangs...I saw one group hang off a fallen tree that a bear could walk up as one end rested on the ground...if you know how to hang you won't have any problems IMO

bear bag hanger
09-07-2013, 09:43
I hung a bear bag just once, doing a perfect PCT method hang using a piece of pvc pipe with a hole drilled in it. When I went to get it down the next morning, it got snagged and after spending 15 minutes trying to free the snag, I had to cut the rope with a knife to get my bag down. Swore never to hang again, and went and bought a bear canister for future use, which we use when we have doubts about the bear population. I can't remember the last time we saw evidence of a bear on our trips.
When using the PCT method, you have to REMOVE the stick in the morning BEFORE you pull the rest of the line over the branch. I learned this once when teaching a group of five or so people how to use the PCT method and forgot to tell them about this. Four of the five people got their lines tangled in the hanging branch. For some reason, I thought this was obvious.

Raymond James
09-07-2013, 09:56
I hang trash, food and smelly tuff, filter/treat water . I do not like skunks, hate raccoons /mice . I have had bears in camp several times and spent two hours watching one in the Rockies jumping out of a tree trying to grab the bear bait bag before he gave up. Shared food with the group who's food he ate later that night .With trees around pretty easy to do and I see no reason not too.

Wise Old Owl
09-07-2013, 11:38
23865Well I am out on a limb here... As a group of hikers both professional and new, over the years animal activists, conservationist, rangers, Ridge runners and lobbyists have observed us a group and thrown all sorts of ideas and stuff at us by telling us we can't have a fire, fire ring, cant burn our trash and pack it out. carry a weapon legit etc. All in the name of safety for us as well as the critters... Bear spray? Hang your food? carry a stove? Sleep here and not there? I am with Lone Wolf on this - its a PITA!

On the Delaware Water Gap at the last campground we pass a perfect camp spot from the 50's that was down in a hollow with a brook sheltered from the winds, loaded with signs that we could not use the spot. Instead the designated area was up on a ridge with all the trees burned out and high cold winds and a long walk with a stream, and in my mind a real pita location and a ridge runner to boot. The sunset was great...

We cannot expect miscreants on the trail to do the right things and not to spoil things, by attracting animals to shelters, not cleaning up after themselves, starting forest fires, graffiti, carve the trees with knives, shoot everything that moves, tear up the trail with quads and trucks, and make it more difficult for backpackers to enjoy.


I am going to accept the way things are today, but based on my beliefs it was easier to backpack then, then now....At least I have freeze dried Cheese Cake to boot.


I am not complaining - just making a observation that we are not going to solve this here.

Don H
09-07-2013, 15:00
Here's how ya do it:

1) Place stinky pack on floor of tent
2) Place food bag with trash inside on top of stinky pack
3) Lay stinky hiker clothes on top of food bag.

Now if you're a weekend hiker and don't get the chance to build up that ever important
"hiker stink" then the above method won't work, go to plan B

Plan B: Hang your food.

firesign
09-07-2013, 17:05
Appreciate the responses - clear as mud.

If the reason for hoisting is to minimize odours which may attract black bears, and if people cook food, wash pots and hang their food within the camp area, then what exactly is being achieved?

This link on the subject, suggests a minimum of 200 feet up wind from camp for the three activities outlined above:

http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/training/bearbag.shtml

This makes a lot of sense and is workable, however...

Unless all hikers in camp are following a standard protocol (which does not appear to the case based on the responses) then what exactly is being achieved by cooking food, washing pots and hoisting within camp?

I can understand hikers travelling in very small groups on the PCT, CDT and other remote trails hoisting bags, as discipline in the small group could be achieved (if their objective is not to attract bears).

When one considers the high volume of people on the AT; thru hikers, section hikers, day hikers and party animals, then I think that hoisting is BS. Just my opinion.

BradMT
09-07-2013, 17:09
Back East I never hung food/trash.

Here in Grizz Country I always hang everything with food odor... those that don't will eventually have a problem.

BirdBrain
09-07-2013, 18:39
Appreciate the responses - clear as mud.

If the reason for hoisting is to minimize odours which may attract black bears, and if people cook food, wash pots and hang their food within the camp area, then what exactly is being achieved?

This link on the subject, suggests a minimum of 200 feet up wind from camp for the three activities outlined above:

http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/training/bearbag.shtml

This makes a lot of sense and is workable, however...

Unless all hikers in camp are following a standard protocol (which does not appear to the case based on the responses) then what exactly is being achieved by cooking food, washing pots and hoisting within camp?

I can understand hikers travelling in very small groups on the PCT, CDT and other remote trails hoisting bags, as discipline in the small group could be achieved (if their objective is not to attract bears).

When one considers the high volume of people on the AT; thru hikers, section hikers, day hikers and party animals, then I think that hoisting is BS. Just my opinion.

Sounds to me like you have found what is best for you. Now, the key is letting the other guy do what is best for him/her. You are not going to change their minds. You might as well embrace the chaos. Hanging is not about keeping critters out of the camp. It would be nice if that could be achieved. You would have to be the AT dictator to impose rules that would make that a reality. Until a magical sublime utopia comes to the AT and we all join arms and do it one way, it is only about your food and what works best for you. What works for me is to hang the hang. What happens to the other guy's food is their business. I tent away from the critter cafeterias.

Slo-go'en
09-07-2013, 20:18
I supose one could argue that hanging food could attact a bear by allowing the wind to broadcast the scent far and wide. OTOH, if your already in an area a bear might know there is hiker food available, hanging could keep yours safe. All you got to do is hang yours better then the other guy. Same princable as being able to run faster :)

Game Warden
09-07-2013, 20:43
If a hundred hikers don't hang their bags here's what happens: Hiker Joe enjoys a meal of Smore's before bed, and goes to sleep with the ingredients in his tent. Fat dumb happy bear comes along and wants to share but can't figure out how to work a zipper. Hiker Joe flips out and tells everyone a bear attacked him. Gets on you tube and the news. Game warden gets called in to kill the "dangerous" bear. I shoot the bear, while cursing Hiker Joe, who spends the rest of his life telling everyone about the time he was attacked by a bear. Use a bear bag, not for your sake but the bear's.

Wise Old Owl
09-07-2013, 20:49
Appreciate the responses - clear as mud.

If the reason for hoisting is to minimize odours which may attract black bears, and if people cook food, wash pots and hang their food within the camp area, then what exactly is being achieved?

This link on the subject, suggests a minimum of 200 feet up wind from camp for the three activities outlined above:

http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/training/bearbag.shtml

This makes a lot of sense and is workable, however...

Unless all hikers in camp are following a standard protocol (which does not appear to the case based on the responses) then what exactly is being achieved by cooking food, washing pots and hoisting within camp?

I can understand hikers travelling in very small groups on the PCT, CDT and other remote trails hoisting bags, as discipline in the small group could be achieved (if their objective is not to attract bears).

When one considers the high volume of people on the AT; thru hikers, section hikers, day hikers and party animals, then I think that hoisting is BS. Just my opinion.

Yes for the AT most likely, because we assume its just for bears... its not - you have to consider all the vermin. Possum, skunks, pesky racoons, rats and mice, etc...
So my suggestion is that we learn it & practice it - then make sure you have the concrete line when you go out..

Do not use a putty cat as a weight....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAhWqbtd2p0


Here is a web page describing all the different ways
http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/training/bearbag.shtml

BirdBrain
09-07-2013, 22:59
If a hundred hikers don't hang their bags here's what happens: Hiker Joe enjoys a meal of Smore's before bed, and goes to sleep with the ingredients in his tent. Fat dumb happy bear comes along and wants to share but can't figure out how to work a zipper. Hiker Joe flips out and tells everyone a bear attacked him. Gets on you tube and the news. Game warden gets called in to kill the "dangerous" bear. I shoot the bear, while cursing Hiker Joe, who spends the rest of his life telling everyone about the time he was attacked by a bear. Use a bear bag, not for your sake but the bear's.

This is all very logical. The trouble is you are talking about a bunch of people who have that logic of I've always done thus and such and nothing bad has ever happened to me. It is the same reason people gamble, drink, text while driving, don't wear seat-belts, and on and on. I probably went to far this time and will be beat up. I just don't see the down side to going to ridiculous measures to ensure that animals don't get your food. You see the down side to bears getting food. The truth is many don't care at all about the bear. They only care about their hike. One more time (one last time on this thread): Hanging is not the only way to keep critters out of your food, but if you don't care about this issue you should stay home.

Sarcasm the elf
09-07-2013, 23:57
This is all very logical. The trouble is you are talking about a bunch of people who have that logic of I've always done thus and such and nothing bad has ever happened to me. It is the same reason people gamble, drink, text while driving, don't wear seat-belts, and on and on. I probably went to far this time and will be beat up. I just don't see the down side to going to ridiculous measures to ensure that animals don't get your food. You see the down side to bears getting food. The truth is many don't care at all about the bear. They only care about their hike. One more time (one last time on this thread): Hanging is not the only way to keep critters out of your food, but if you don't care about this issue you should stay home.

BB, you seem to always leave out the real reason people on the site aren't huge on bear bagging. The majority of bear bag hangs done in the A.T. are worthless due to laziness/inexperience on the part of the person putting them up and as a result actually create more of a problem than they solve. In my experience, maybe 10% of the bear bag's I've seen on trail were hung properly, the rest were crap that no more effective an leaving your food in the ground. It's particularly frustrating when I help people hang a bag and show them the PCT method, only to run into them again several days later to find their bag hung from a large branch, and five feet off the ground. I will trust and would prefer to camp with a person who keeps their food attended to at all times over a person that puts up a terrible bear bag hang, no contest.

If the maintaining clubs cared as much about this subject as they claimed to, then there would be bear boxes at every shelter and maintained campsite, this is what we have up in CT and most of the northeast and it works great.

BirdBrain
09-08-2013, 00:10
BB, you seem to always leave out the real reason people on the site aren't huge on bear bagging. The majority of bear bag hangs done in the A.T. are worthless due to laziness/inexperience on the part of the person putting them up and as a result actually create more of a problem than they solve. In my experience, maybe 10% of the bear bag's I've seen on trail were hung properly, the rest were crap that no more effective an leaving your food in the ground. It's particularly frustrating when I help people hang a bag and show them the PCT method, only to run into them again several days later to find their bag hung from a large branch, and five feet off the ground. I will trust and would prefer to camp with a person who keeps their food attended to at all times over a person that puts up a terrible bear bag hang, no contest.

If the maintaining clubs cared as much about this subject as they claimed to, then there would be bear boxes at every shelter and maintained campsite, this is what we have up in CT and most of the northeast and it works great.

I believe I have stated that in the past. I will find a quote after I respond to this. Suffice it to say that I agree with you. A poorly hung bag is a big problem on the trail. It is far worse than sleeping with your food. You might as well give the critters a napkin and fork if you are going to hang the food wrong.

BirdBrain
09-08-2013, 00:11
One more post to the OP: It is very possible to hang your food wrong and run a much higher risk of having it tampered with than if you sleep with it. I am convinced that the odds are extremely low of the food being tampered with if you sleep with it (especially if you use a odor proof bag). This is a matter of your comfort level. Figure out what will work good for you and ignore the noise.

Here is one such quote.

Don H
09-08-2013, 11:09
BB, you seem to always leave out the real reason people on the site aren't huge on bear bagging. The majority of bear bag hangs done in the A.T. are worthless due to laziness/inexperience on the part of the person putting them up and as a result actually create more of a problem than they solve. In my experience, maybe 10% of the bear bag's I've seen on trail were hung properly, the rest were crap that no more effective an leaving your food in the ground. It's particularly frustrating when I help people hang a bag and show them the PCT method, only to run into them again several days later to find their bag hung from a large branch, and five feet off the ground. I will trust and would prefer to camp with a person who keeps their food attended to at all times over a person that puts up a terrible bear bag hang, no contest.

If the maintaining clubs cared as much about this subject as they claimed to, then there would be bear boxes at every shelter and maintained campsite, this is what we have up in CT and most of the northeast and it works great.

Another problem is that at many sites there's just not a good place to hang properly (min. 10' up and 10' away).

If I'm at a site with known problems than I hang, especially if there's a bear box, pole or line at an established site. Other than that I use my method of covering the food sent with my clothes. A poor hand is worse than not hanging in my opinion.

bamboo bob
09-08-2013, 12:39
i did that for 14 years in a row. never hung a thing. On the AT I always sleep with my food. I'm usually camped alone and have never had any problems. On the PCT I did the same accept on the very rare occasions when there was bear sign.
Now on the AT, especially near Neels Gap some people lose hung food to bears. I don't know of any cases of bears going into a tent on the AT. I would like to hear one if someone has FIRST HAND knowledge not some hiker rumor. I have seen 47 bears (yes, I keep count) and not one has done anything but run away ASAP.

I have used the "PCT method" when pressured to hang food by rangers and others but curiously I have never seen the "PCT method used on the PCT.

double d
09-08-2013, 12:48
I really like the OP question as I think its related to where-when you hike. For example: not too many black bears in Vermont, so....I do not hang my food bag in that state (although they do have black bears), but in the Smokey Mt. N.P., not only is it foolish to not hang your FB, its also against N.P. policy. Its just wise to do so. I also no longer hike in grizz country (Like Glacier N.P.). Its just not fun to think about a grizz coming to dinner at 3:00am in your tent or playing dodge ball with your hung FB. but..........I would always error on the side of safety and hang the dang thing, it only takes a few minutes and the more you do it, the better you get at it, although after a long hike, I don't have much energy to hang my FB.

bangorme
09-08-2013, 12:50
Another problem is that at many sites there's just not a good place to hang properly (min. 10' up and 10' away).

I usually get to camp, set up my tent, put my tent gear inside, then hang my bear bag rig so I can hang the bag after dark. It almost never takes more than 10 minutes to set up the line. That being said, I think people get too... fixated on hanging the bag perfectly. Like, for example, hanging your bag 100 feet from your camp. Is the thought that the bear doesn't know where you are? Or hanging it 10 feet from this or that. Or tying it in a way the line can't be untied. IMHO, the only purpose of a bear bag is to make it difficult for the bear. Hanging a bag 5 feet off the ground doesn't do that, but it doesn't have to exactly 10 feet. I was at a location this week where there were no good trees for a bag, I just did the best I could in 10 minutes. As far as "hiding" your food in your tent, I've seen dogs sniff out drugs hidden in coffee, clothes washing detergent, and everything else. I bet that bears aren't fooled either.

As far as danger to the backpacker, I'm more afraid of a rabid raccoon than a bear anyway. Never not had a bear run when I growled at it... that's a black bear btw. I've seen rebid raccoons that didn't run from anything.

hikerhobs
09-09-2013, 16:22
If you want to hang your food hang it , If you don't want to hang your food then don't, It's your hike.

Theosus
09-10-2013, 00:48
Sounds to me like you have found what is best for you. Now, the key is letting the other guy do what is best for him/her. You are not going to change their minds. You might as well embrace the chaos.

On our last newbie group trip I tried to show people the PCT hang and tell them the reasons. I had one couple that refused to listen to my advice. They threw a rope over the crotch of a tree and hauled their food up about ten feet off the ground, resting right against the trunk. In the morning, all the food bags were fine except theirs. It had been shredded by a raccoon or something, food and trash were everywhere. It was a cheap and mostly pain free lesson, but one they hopefully will remember (except for the woman in the group - she has since been on two other hikes and does NOT take to advice.)

BirdBrain
09-10-2013, 01:31
On our last newbie group trip I tried to show people the PCT hang and tell them the reasons. I had one couple that refused to listen to my advice. They threw a rope over the crotch of a tree and hauled their food up about ten feet off the ground, resting right against the trunk. In the morning, all the food bags were fine except theirs. It had been shredded by a raccoon or something, food and trash were everywhere. It was a cheap and mostly pain free lesson, but one they hopefully will remember (except for the woman in the group - she has since been on two other hikes and does NOT take to advice.)

There is the real thief. I think this whole debate is muddied by the thought that hanging a bag is to keep bears out of the food. I tell people that see me hanging a bag that it is my raccoon bag. I have lived in Maine all my life and have spent a large percentage of my time in the woods and have seen just one bear. I have seen hundreds of raccoons. Raccoons are not shy. They would stand on your face if they thought it would get them some food. When I hang a bag, a bear is not even in my mind. If it protects my food from the remote chance that a bear might come by, I guess that is good too.