View Full Version : How do I know the temperature rating of a jacket?
I had the opportunity to upgrade a lot of my old backpacking gear in the last year or so. Among the items that I bought was a Mountain Hardware Ghost Whisperer Down Jacket. I pick it because of the weight, 7 oz; the quality of the down fill, 850; and the fact that I found it on sale for about half price (although my only color choice was silver - kind of makes one look like a bipedal, “baked potato” – but then paying full price, a whopping $300, might disrupt my domestic tranquility, so I was willing to go with it :)).
The problem is that I have only been able to test it down to the upper 30’s (it was quite warm with a Marmot Essence Rain Jacket over it [another upgrade]), and I have no idea if it will keep me warm during the fall/early winter backpacking trips I plan to do. Nowhere can I find a temperature rating for the jacket, or for that matter, no one seems willing to provide temperature ratings of any jackets (or other outerwear)
So that made me wondered why manufacturers don’t provide temperature ratings for outerwear like jackets. In attempting to answer this question, I kept coming across statements like this one from Patagonia:
“The primary reason we don't give ratings for our outerwear is that they're too subjective. Not only is everybody different, conditions at any given temperature are different as well. Factors such as humidity, wind, sun, and clouds all affect how cold a given temperature feels. And let's face it, some of us just don't handle cold as well as others so the first variable is whether you run cold or hot.”
I get that, but sleeping bags have a temperature rating to help you compare products and to give you an idea what conditions the bag might be appropriate for so why not the same for outerwear? Certainly there is a way to get a basic idea on how warm a jacket will be….. no?
So my question is, is there a way to get a basic temperature range for clothing like this? For example, can I take the down fill rating (and synthetics often give a down fill rating equivalent) and the amount of down and plug that into some formula to get some sort of temperature guide? Is there some other way? A WEB site I am missing? Or is just always going to be a trial-and-error process, as is implicit in Patagonia’s statement?
Yes there is, but how warm you actually feel is very subjective.
There is what is called a CLO rating system.
I recommend you go to backpacking light, search for CLO rating and start reading. There is a guy on there that is a guru on this stuff.
Tipi Walter
09-11-2013, 10:45
Like with down sleeping bags, the most important number is the amount of down in ounces inside the bag (or the jacket). Many companies refuse to list the amount of down inside their jackets. A robust down jacket (or parka), in my opinion, should have around 10 to 15 ounces of down inside---this is the most important number. The overall weight of the jacket is important only after this first number is figured. With high quality down (850-900), 10oz or 15oz of fill will qualify as being a "winter parka" and usable in deep cold and still light enough to pack and carry.
But as with everything else, people nowadays are fascinated with uber lightness and think they can find something warm for winter with minimal weight and bulk. The fact is, cold temps require more bulk and more weight, whether in goose down or primaloft.
Another Kevin
09-11-2013, 18:10
But as with everything else, people nowadays are fascinated with uber lightness and think they can find something warm for winter with minimal weight and bulk. The fact is, cold temps require more bulk and more weight, whether in goose down or primaloft.
Yup. And the bulk is actually a pretty good indication of the warmth, because the down or primaloft doesn't insulate you. The air that they're holding in does. The thicker the layer of air, the more it'll insulate. And the 'fill power' of down is how many cubic inches of air an ounce of down will hold.
Colin Fletcher at one point had a formula that estimated the temperature rating of a sleeping bag by spreading it out, fluffing it, and measuring how many inches off the floor it lofted.
I read up on this question on BL, calculated the CLO (right at 2, which seemed low), looked for a way to get a CLO to temp conversion chart - none found), then tried to find CLO ratings for other down jackets to try and make comparisons (also with no success), and finally I read user reviews and their experiences on a variety of sites.
Based on all that I came three conclusions 1) There are to many personal and environmental variables to get a reliable temp rating 2) Knowing the CLO did not provide much guidance, and 3) Reading reviews, looking at the loft and down quality, and getting people's experiences and opinions will probably provide the best guess. After that, take it out and see for your self how warm it keeps you.
Oh, and my conclusion on the MH ghost whisper - for me, with a shirt under and a wind break over, 30 F would be as far as I would feel comfortable testing it for light chores/hanging around camp. I'll see if I am correct later this hiking season.
Thanks for the input.
Yup. And the bulk is actually a pretty good indication of the warmth, because the down or primaloft doesn't insulate you. The air that they're holding in does. The thicker the layer of air, the more it'll insulate. And the 'fill power' of down is how many cubic inches of air an ounce of down will hold.
Colin Fletcher at one point had a formula that estimated the temperature rating of a sleeping bag by spreading it out, fluffing it, and measuring how many inches off the floor it lofted.
The down actually does. BPL performed a test where they tested down insulation at different levels of compression and found that it could be significantly compressed with insignificant changes to its ability to insulate. Based on their tests, I'd first look to the fill weight and fill power, and then consider the loft or baffle height.
I had the opportunity to upgrade a lot of my old backpacking gear in the last year or so. Among the items that I bought was a Mountain Hardware Ghost Whisperer Down Jacket. I pick it because of the weight, 7 oz; the quality of the down fill, 850; and the fact that I found it on sale for about half price (although my only color choice was silver - kind of makes one look like a bipedal, “baked potato” – but then paying full price, a whopping $300, might disrupt my domestic tranquility, so I was willing to go with it :)).
The problem is that I have only been able to test it down to the upper 30’s (it was quite warm with a Marmot Essence Rain Jacket over it [another upgrade]), and I have no idea if it will keep me warm during the fall/early winter backpacking trips I plan to do. Nowhere can I find a temperature rating for the jacket, or for that matter, no one seems willing to provide temperature ratings of any jackets (or other outerwear)
So that made me wondered why manufacturers don’t provide temperature ratings for outerwear like jackets. In attempting to answer this question, I kept coming across statements like this one from Patagonia:
“The primary reason we don't give ratings for our outerwear is that they're too subjective. Not only is everybody different, conditions at any given temperature are different as well. Factors such as humidity, wind, sun, and clouds all affect how cold a given temperature feels. And let's face it, some of us just don't handle cold as well as others so the first variable is whether you run cold or hot.”
I get that, but sleeping bags have a temperature rating to help you compare products and to give you an idea what conditions the bag might be appropriate for so why not the same for outerwear? Certainly there is a way to get a basic idea on how warm a jacket will be….. no?
So my question is, is there a way to get a basic temperature range for clothing like this? For example, can I take the down fill rating (and synthetics often give a down fill rating equivalent) and the amount of down and plug that into some formula to get some sort of temperature guide? Is there some other way? A WEB site I am missing? Or is just always going to be a trial-and-error process, as is implicit in Patagonia’s statement?
Patagonia is right. There are way too many variables with outer wear to let manufacturers make reasonable blanket statements regarding temp ratings of outer wear. For example, we all, or I thought we all, have heard about layering. No outer jacket is worn by itself. We layer underneath and over it and accessorize(hats, gloves, etc) AND we all layer differently. This results in different users being able to use a outer jacket comfortably in various temps. For example, you're saying you're wearing a Marmot Essence Rain Jacket over the MH Ghost Whisperer. That changes things for the user in that situation. With the newer EN sleeping bag temp rating systems there are less variables with temp ratings. Sleeping bag temp ratings have been generally standarized. It's nearly impossible to do that with outer wear. o
Look at these reviews. http://reviews.mountainhardwear.com/7018/OM5678/mountain-hardwear-mens-ghost-whisperer-down-jacket-reviews/reviews.htm
See what this reviewer Tony B says: "Was recommended the ghost whisperer by a friend and I will recommend it to all of mine. Extremely lightweight yet warm. I wore this around town and on light hikes in California when the temperature was in the 50's and was plenty warm. Sported it as a standalone jacket in the Uwharrie forest in NC when the temps were in the 40s, this plus a longsleeve base layer kept me warm. When the temp dropped into the teens and 20s, a light baselayer, this jacket and my Marmot ski jacket kept me very warm. Pricey but worth it for the weight to warmth."
I would concur.
Here, look at this Outdoor Gear Lab review and consider the conclusions they came to and what other like jackets they compared it to:
http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Down-Jacket-Reviews/Mountain-Hardwear-Hooded-Ghost-Whisperer
I would concur with their labeling the MH Ghost Whisperer as a light insulating jacket. BUT, again, keep in mind a jacket rarely is used on its own. Layering is the name of the game many play ---- because it works. Consider your good bargain as a layering piece providing the comfort needed cummulatively with other apparel and you'll be better off.
Temp rating for clothing has way too many moving parts.
Are you sitting still, are you moving, is it windy, are you from Florida? All effect how warm you feel.
CLO gives you a way to compare one garment to another. How warm that garment feels to an individual is tough to figure out.
This is a pub from 3m that includes a general temperature table:
http://3m.newshq.businesswire.com/sites/3m.newshq.businesswire.com/files/press_kit/additional/psm_ANSI_201_Infographic_0.pdf
Kerosene
09-12-2013, 07:22
Based on weight and fill power, the Ghost Whisperer sounds very similar to two of my down "sweaters": a Montbell UL that I only bring when I anticipate morning temperatures below freezing; and a slightly heavier but more stylish Mountain Hardwear piece that I wear around town when temps are above 20.
Personally, there have been very few times when I really felt that I could have used a down sweater to supplement my 100-weight Polarfleece, long-sleeve base layer, and wind/rain shell. Sure, I would have been warmer while in camp, but my section hikes between April and October haven't encountered sustained cold conditions. Remember, your internal thermostat will adjust to outdoor temps remarkably fast (mine takes about 3 days). Of course, not everyone has a 98.6 degree temperature either (my 'normal' is 97.0). In the end, it's what works for you and your situation. Bring the jacket and hit the sleeping bag early if it isn't sufficient, or don't bring it on your next hike.
Temp rating for clothing has way too many moving parts.
Are you sitting still, are you moving, is it windy, are you from Florida? All effect how warm you feel.
CLO gives you a way to compare one garment to another. How warm that garment feels to an individual is tough to figure out.
This is a pub from 3m that includes a general temperature table:
http://3m.newshq.businesswire.com/sites/3m.newshq.businesswire.com/files/press_kit/additional/psm_ANSI_201_Infographic_0.pdf
I don’t think I expressed my ultimate goal well at the beginning. Knowing the temperature range of the MHGW jacket is part of knowing what to take to keep warm on any particular trip. With fall and winter trips planned, I was wondering how much the jacket would need to be “supplemented”. The information on BPL and the general temperature table helps a lot. Thanks.
It looks like if I know a garment’s CLO I can have a rough idea of what the comfortable temperature range will be in mild activity circumstances (as the table is based on a 2 Metabolic Equivalent of Task activity level - the equivalent to walking around camp/doing light chores) for that particular piece of clothing. According to what I read on backpacking light, I can also sum the CLO ratings of various garments that I intend to “layer” in order to get a single CLO value/estimated comfort range.
(FWIW: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/clo-clothing-thermal-insulation-d_732.html (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/clo-clothing-thermal-insulation-d_732.html) provides CLO values for commonly worn clothing)
So it seems that if I know the forecasted weather (temperature ranges, humidity, wind, etc….) and I know the CLO of the clothes I have, then I should have a basic idea on what set of clothing that will keep me warm under the conditions that am anticipating, which keep me from bringing too many clothes (keeping weight down). And as you pointed out, knowing the CLO should help a lot when comparing similar products (like knowing the En sleeping bag rating does).
If I miscalculate, then as Kerosene said, “I’ll hit the sleeping bag early if it isn't sufficient”.