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Jack Tarlin
08-13-2005, 13:02
I just finished reading a very sad story in our local newspaper, the Valley News. A 21-year old Dartmouth student drowned in the Connecticut River last night, near the Ledyard Bridge, the bridge that hikers cross in order to get to Hanover or Norwich, VT.

It should be stressed to anyone planning to visit Hanover that swimming anywhere near this bridge is very dangerous, as apparently there's all sorts of junk (scrap metal, wire, etc.) in the water and it's fairly easy to get snagged on something. This incident happened around 2:30 last night and they still haven't recovered the body.

Many hikers swim near the Connecticut River bridge and some have been known to dive off it. This is a REALLY dangerous thing to do, and people need to be aware of the risks. Some hikers also make a "tradition" of jumping off the bridge in nearby West Hartford, VT; this is also a dangerous and stupid thing to do, as several people have been seriously injured doing this.

There are places where one can safely swim in the Connecticut River, but near the Ledyard Bridge is NOT one of them.

Also: It appears that the victim tired while attempting to swim all the way across the river; I've seen hikers attempting the same stunt here, as well as at other places along the Trail, usually across ponds. Hikers should NOT attempt this sort of thing unless they are very strong swimmers.

Sly
08-13-2005, 13:21
Maybe I'm missing something, but if they haven't recovered the body, how do they know a student drowned.

Heater
08-13-2005, 14:41
Maybe I'm missing something, but if they haven't recovered the body, how do they know a student drowned.
I agree.

While it is very likely that this is what happened we should not jump to conclusions and take a chance at spreading rumors and untruths based upon conjecture. After all, we only have one news account to base our opinions on as to what acually happened. A full investigation has not been completed so we should reserve our opinions until all the facts are in as concluded by the local law enforcement authoritys involved in the investigation of this matter.

I think the original post and any posts that contain anything but the absolute, concrete, balls on facts should be DELETED immediately.

Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.

;)

smokymtnsteve
08-13-2005, 14:46
that they wuz swimming after drinking some of that ole demon alkyhol ????

bet there has been some folks jump off of that bridge after having a few!!

Mountain Dew
08-13-2005, 14:49
geez, maybe a WITNESS saw him drown you know. Do you really need the body to say that this college kid drown if there were witnesses ? I don't see the newspaper claiming that he drown if they aren't 100% possitive that it happened.

smokymtnsteve
08-13-2005, 14:55
well how some this supposswed witness that POSSIBLY saw a drwoning didn't jump in and try to save the 'victim"????

plus how so we know it the cause of death to be drowning..could have beena heart attack or other cause,,,,we do not have clinical evidence yet, we cannot prove water in the lungs,

guess this thread will be moved THICK SKINNED ANYMINUTE NOW.

Plus was this person even a AT hiker....

thread should aleast be in "other NON at talk"

MOWGLI
08-13-2005, 14:57
According to this article, the student did not jump off of the bridge.

Student may have drowned participating in local tradition

August 13, 2005, 1:08 PM EDT

HANOVER, N.H. -- A 21-year-old Bulgarian student who apparently drowned in the Connecticut River may have been participating in a Dartmouth student tradition known as the Ledyard Challenge.

Divers continued on Saturday to search the river for the body of Valentine Valkov, a student from Trinity College in Hartford, Conn., who was participating in a summer program at the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth College. He disappeared early Friday morning while trying to swim across the Connecticut River and is presumed drowned, according to Hanover police and college officials.

The tradition of swimming naked across the river is well known to Dartmouth students and to police who say they see the ritual throughout the summer.

"It's almost a nightly occurrence," Hanover Police Chief Nick Giaccone told the Valley News.

One woman told a reporter she saw a group of about 15 students who'd been out drinking preparing for the "Ledyard Challenge" by the bridge.

Iden Sinai, 20, a junior from Tampa, Fla., explained that the Dartmouth tradition arose because it's legal to be naked in Vermont but not in New Hampshire.

"The challenge is to get to Vermont naked (by running over the Ledyard Bridge), then swim back and get your clothes on before you get in trouble. It's more just a giddy thrill than anything else," Sinai said.

Police began their efforts to locate Valkov shortly after Hanover police were called to the scene at 2:21 a.m. on Friday. Divers from the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department began their search just after 9 a.m.

Police said they believe Valkov entered the water naked on the Norwich side of the river, and swam nearly two-thirds of the way across the river near Ledyard Bridge before disappearing just after 2 a.m.

Police said they may end the search Saturday because of poor search conditions.

"It's very dangerous," Giaccone said. "Visibility is about one hand. They're on the bottom just touching and feeling. It's so difficult out there, they could have just passed right over" the body.

One diver got caught in an old cable underwater on Friday, said Fish and Game Sgt. Brian Suttmeier, who aided the divers from a boat. "When they get hung up on the bottom, I tell you, it's scary for us," Suttmeier said.

Because Valkov's parents do not speak English, Tuck School staff had to search out the Bulgarian wife of a second-year Tuck student to translate the news of Valentine Valkov's apparent drowning, said Tuck spokeswoman Kim Keating.

"We're pretty fortunate that accidents like this don't happen more often," said Raina Hammel, a junior from Girdwood, Alaska. "There's a lot of drinking that goes on. It's a wake-up call, for sure."



Information from: Lebanon Valley News, http://www.vnews.com

Heater
08-13-2005, 15:08
geez, maybe a WITNESS saw him drown you know. Do you really need the body to say that this college kid drown if there were witnesses ?
Well, no. I guess you could use common sense and conjecture. Tha's why I said "While it is very likely that this is what happened we should not jump to conclusions and take a chance at spreading rumors and untruths based upon conjecture".


I don't see the newspaper claiming that he drown if they aren't 100% possitive that it happened.
The original post said,
"I just finished reading a very sad story in our local newspaper, the Valley News. A 21-year old Dartmouth student drowned in the Connecticut River last night, near the Ledyard Bridge..."

Now, I didn't read the actual news reoprt but that is what was reported here on WB.

I accordance with the latest set of guidelines set forth by an administrator of this site in response to the complaints of a few of the users herein, we should ALL try to comply with the new procedures so as not to perpetuate any misinformation that might inadvertantly hurt others reading these postings.
After all, there has already been one post staing that the 'ol demon alcyhol" might have been to blame.

Thank you for your cooperation in the sensitive issue.

Lone Wolf
08-13-2005, 15:20
Yup. Drinkin was involved. Just like most bad s**t that happens after midnite on a weekend.

Heater
08-13-2005, 15:26
Yup. Drinkin was involved. Just like most bad s**t that happens after midnite on a weekend.
...and nearly all of the good s**t.

It's a trade off, ya know. Besides most of the bad s**t happens to those in their 20's to mid 30's. Wonder why that is?

Sly
08-13-2005, 16:48
Common sense injected here...

Sounds like the only good thing Mountain Dew is going to be for in his new job is writing out parking tickets.

Have a donut!

Jack Tarlin
08-13-2005, 16:56
Austexs--

My original post was not merely based on one newspaper story; it was based on several; it was also based on conversations I had with several journalists as well as with several Hanover police officers who'd been up all night searching for the missing student and investigating the details of the incident.

It was their considered opinion that he had drowned.

So if, as you seem to think, I was spreading rumors, untruths, and conjectures, please blame someone else other than me. I was merely reporting what had been told to me personally by local reporters and law enforcement authorities.

All I was attempting to do was point out some unsafe places and unsafe practices in these parts involving rivers and bridges. Folks have been hurt or killed on these rivers in recent years and it's important that people know about these things.

MOWGLI
08-13-2005, 17:41
Based on the fact that the Chief of Police says that swimming in the river is "almost a nightly occurrence", I would suggest that it is not all that dangerous an activity, unless of course you are intoxicated or can't swim.

Any way you slice it, it's a sad situation.

Call me cynical, but... I can't help but wonder if the original post has something to do with a certain individual and his tradition of jumping off of the bridge at The Gathering.

Jack Tarlin
08-13-2005, 17:50
Yeah, you're cynical.

And you're wrong.

This has to do with the fact that a young man died doing something foolish; this swimming stunt is also something that hikers have tried in the past; I merely wanted to point this out to people in order to prevent a similar tragedy, either here or anywhere else.

If you want to read more into my post other than what I said, Mowgli, that's entirely your privilege.

It's also your privilege to go swim in the Connecticut.

Have a nice day.

TakeABreak
08-13-2005, 17:54
Here is my $.02 worth, the reason a lot of people in the 20's and 30's die, while drinking, is they think they are invinceable. Plus, you do not have to drink to have fun at any age, if it is so, for any individual then you have a bigger problem than just your drinking.

Also, it is possible to see someone drowning and not jump in to try and save them. When I was a teenager I was very lean, a very good swimmer and worked at sod farm all summer slinging and laying sod, so I was very physically strong. One weekend I was out with my older brother and a bunch of friends, he was 17 I was 15, we were out swimming. Most of us were physically tired, from a long day of playing baseball and swimming, to include me.

My older brother wanted to go swim across a small river, I told him several times no I was too tired and knew I would not make it, he admitted he was very tired too, but still wanted to go across it. I told him no several more times, he, being the person he is (always thinking he had to try and prove something, and it would be o.k.) got part way across and started to cramp and drown, I was too tired to help and knew if I tried, I would drown too, So I began to look for something to throw to him. In the mean time, a couple of the other guys (who were even better swimmers than me and not so tired) jumped in and were barely able to save him.

I got a lot of criticism from a lot of people about that, to include my parents, I guess they like smokymountainsteve "well how some this supposswed witness that POSSIBLY saw a drwoning didn't jump in and try to save the 'victim"????" thinks it would be better for everyone to drown, in trying to save someone who is too ignorant to listen to their bodies and / or good sound logic. If you are to tired or not a good enough swimmer to go in after someone the best thing you can do is try and help some other way.

Just because one person thinks that no matter what stupid stunt they pull everything will be alright, doesn't mean you or I or anyone else has to kill themselves or risk their lives trying to save that person, from their own ignorance and stupidity.

MOWGLI
08-13-2005, 18:02
You know, if it was as hot in Hanover as it is in Chattanooga, I probably would go for a swim in the river. But, I am a very strong swimer, and I no longer drink alcohol.

My heart goes out to the family. They send their 21 year old kid from Bulgaria to the US to get an Ivy League education and he goes home in a casket. Its a parents worst nightmare. Very sad indeed.

Lone Wolf
08-13-2005, 18:44
Most are followers. Not leaders.

TOW
08-13-2005, 19:00
I accordance with the latest set of guidelines set forth by an administrator of this site in response to the complaints of a few of the users herein, we should ALL try to comply with the new procedures so as not to perpetuate any misinformation that might inadvertantly hurt others reading these postings.
After all, there has already been one post staing that the 'ol demon alcyhol" might have been to blame.

Thank you for your cooperation in the sensitive issue.What a bunch of horselip....perhaps you didn't catch the go between sgt rock and attroll? this matter has been resolved.......

Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-13-2005, 19:21
Prayers for the young man's family. It is tragic.

Rancid
08-13-2005, 21:58
Thanks for the warning, actually a reminder Jack. I swim and lounge in the Delaware River quite often about 10 miles north of the AT bridge. It looks like a short distance across, but the current is swift in the middle. I saw a young man swim across but got washed down towards the rapids below very quickly. He made it to the other side ok, but exausted. He ended up walking upriver where it was more placid and an island in the middle, so he was able to wade/swim over with a rest in the middle. When he finally returned to his friends, he was tired and embarrassed, so he sat down on a cooler and had another beer!?

smokymtnsteve
08-13-2005, 23:35
So if, as you seem to think, I was spreading rumors, untruths, and conjectures, please blame someone else other than me. I was merely reporting what had been told to me personally by local reporters and law enforcement authorities.




gossiping.....

folks drink..drink too much..do something foolish and hurt or kill themselves then then were supoosed to feel sorry for them??

adults who drink to much and then endanger themselves and others are criminals.

justusryans
08-14-2005, 10:03
gossiping.....

folks drink..drink too much..do something foolish and hurt or kill themselves then then were supoosed to feel sorry for them??

adults who drink to much and then endanger themselves and others are criminals.
Which brings us back to being responsible for your actions. Look, if you want to drink, fine! If you want to drive 120 mph down the highway at 2 in the morning, fine! Dude as long as you are not bothering anyone else, go for it. BUT..... there are consequences for these actions. Understanding that is your responsibility. If you get pulled over by the highway patrol don't sit there and try to snivel your way out of it. If you get drunk, do something stupid, end your life, well I'll feel bad for your family, but you put yourself in that position. If you can't drink without doing stupid stuff, then don't drink. If you can't afford to loose your license, then don't speed. Nobody wants to accept responsibility anymore. They would rather blame their parents, the school system, their rotten childhood, the alien mind sucking death rays, ect... that take any responsibility.
I remember being that age and thinking nothing bad can happen to me, I'm going to live forever, ect. That's a common misconception when you are that age, or really any age. College kids do stupid things, that isn't a bad thing, but you are still responsible for those actions.:(

SGT Rock
08-14-2005, 10:19
well how some this supposswed witness that POSSIBLY saw a drwoning didn't jump in and try to save the 'victim"????

plus how so we know it the cause of death to be drowning..could have beena heart attack or other cause,,,,we do not have clinical evidence yet, we cannot prove water in the lungs,

guess this thread will be moved THICK SKINNED ANYMINUTE NOW.

Plus was this person even a AT hiker....

thread should aleast be in "other NON at talk"And there is the rub.:-?

BTW, I know some of you saying stuff like this are just trying to poke a stick at the scab of other threads. I know you are trying to be funny or stir the ****.

But Jack brought up a valid point and showed how this applies to hikers. It is a point well taken and although people know on a rational level that it is a bad idea, there are/will be people that still might do it when they come to a bridge, but a personal story of loss may be the nail that puts the point home in one or two folks that may change the balance when it is their turn to make the decision. Personally I feel that despite whatever factor contributed to this: drugs, alcohol, peer pressure, guy knew better, whatever - that the discussion of it and how it applies to the hiking community is valid and should be out here for everyone to read. I don't intend on moving this thread off here and to a more secluded forum unless it gives too many people too much grief.

And while we are at it, some folks will make stupid remarks that they may or may not regret depending on their own level of compassion. If they say something and another hiker here confronts them, then that is also a lesson for someone else that may make such a remark - that those thing offend people and they might be better thought but not said. :eek:

And please, for the love of Christ, Buddha, the Goddess, the Trees, the Children, or whatever it is that floats your soul - don't get offended then figure the best way to fix everyones red wagon is to go get some grieving family member here to try and piss them off and start a campaign to get the thread deleted. That is such a wrong minded agenda it is too difficult for me to even explain the "why" in that.

TOW
08-14-2005, 10:24
agree with you rock....

justusryans
08-14-2005, 13:38
And please, for the love of Christ, Buddha, the Goddess, the Trees, the Children, or whatever it is that floats your soul - don't get offended then figure the best way to fix everyones red wagon is to go get some grieving family member here to try and piss them off and start a campaign to get the thread deleted. That is such a wrong minded agenda it is too difficult for me to even explain the "why" in that.
What kind of pathetic loser would stoop so low as to pull some crap like that? I thought this site was to express our opinions and open them up for discussion regardless of whether you agree or disagree with them?

SGT Rock
08-14-2005, 13:42
Well I don't know that someone has, but I figure it ought to be said before it happens. I have met people that would do such a thing just to get their way. I sort of got that vibe during the last big debate and wanted to squash it early.

justusryans
08-14-2005, 13:48
Yes, I've known people like that too. They don't like to lose, so they take the, toys, ball, game, whatever and go home. Makes me wish I was still anti-social. ( I'm much better now!)

smokymtnsteve
08-14-2005, 14:57
nope..I'm not trying to be funny or get even or whatever,

I used to work as an EMT and had to deal with drunks eveyday..

I'm sick and tried of the problems and dangers folks drinking are causing in our society,

folks get drunk and then do things that put rescue workers in danger and cost lots of public safety $$$$,

here in FBKS and in particular the goldstream area, a really hip area if U get my drift :cool: we are having community meetings to increase penalties for public drunkenness, and trying to change alkyhol laws,,,even to the point of requiring folks who want to but alkyhol to pocess a alkyhol buyers education and background check permit (similiar to the background check that U must get to buy a firearm)

smokymtnsteve
08-14-2005, 15:00
Which brings us back to being responsible for your actions. Look, if you want to drink, fine! If you want to drive 120 mph down the highway at 2 in the morning, fine! Dude as long as you are not bothering anyone else, go for it. BUT..... there are consequences for these actions. Understanding that is your responsibility. If you get pulled over by the highway patrol don't sit there and try to snivel your way out of it. If you get drunk, do something stupid, end your life, well I'll feel bad for your family, but you put yourself in that position. If you can't drink without doing stupid stuff, then don't drink. If you can't afford to loose your license, then don't speed. Nobody wants to accept responsibility anymore. They would rather blame their parents, the school system, their rotten childhood, the alien mind sucking death rays, ect... that take any responsibility.
I remember being that age and thinking nothing bad can happen to me, I'm going to live forever, ect. That's a common misconception when you are that age, or really any age. College kids do stupid things, that isn't a bad thing, but you are still responsible for those actions.:(


you are so right dude...like darwin

tlbj6142
08-14-2005, 16:53
Plus, you do not have to drink to have fun at any age, if it is so, for any individual then you have a bigger problem than just your drinking.This was one of those things I was totally amazed to actually witness (in college, I didn't know any one who drank in HS). To this day, I still have a hard time understanding the logic.

Why can't folks "let loose" or "be themselves", etc. without drinking? I also wonder if this is just a stupid American thing, or is this an issue world-wide?

Sly
08-14-2005, 17:53
Why can't folks "let loose" or "be themselves", etc. without drinking? I also wonder if this is just a stupid American thing, or is this an issue world-wide?

I take it you've never been to out of the country. Europe, Canada, the Islands? Walk-up or beach bars serving the best beers and exotic cocktails with little umbrellas!

Fun, fun, fun! :banana

smokymtnsteve
08-14-2005, 22:55
"coffee shops" in copenhagen....b+b's in Vancouver,BC ...fun fun fun

Frosty
08-14-2005, 23:06
Why can't folks "let loose" or "be themselves", etc. without drinking? I also wonder if this is just a stupid American thing, or is this an issue world-wide?I'm not sure about the "stupid" part, but I think it is a world-wide phenomenon. And except when it ends in tragedy, excessive drinking is a great source of amusement, both to drinkers and on-lookers.

Again, as LMG has said, "When people do something totally goofy, they usually start by saying, "Wanna see something really cool? Here, hold my beer a minute."

trailangelmary
08-15-2005, 00:58
But Jack brought up a valid point and showed how this applies to hikers. It is a point well taken and although people know on a rational level that it is a bad idea, there are/will be people that still might do it when they come to a bridge, but a personal story of loss may be the nail that puts the point home in one or two folks that may change the balance when it is their turn to make the the decision.

Is it possible to put a warning to hikers of swimming being dangerous in the Campanion and/or Wingfoot's Handbook where it applies on the trail?

Muffin Man
08-15-2005, 01:13
No matter what happened...my condolences to the family and friends. One of my friends recently just passed over as well. It's never an easy transitional period (for me at least).

Does anyone else get bouts of ESP just before something tragic happends or in times of intense emotional states?

Love,
mm

Tha Wookie
08-15-2005, 08:12
[QUOTE=SGT Rock]And there is the rub.:-?

BTW, I know some of you saying stuff like this are just trying to poke a stick at the scab of other threads. I know you are trying to be funny or stir the ****.

But Jack brought up a valid point and showed how this applies to hikers. It is a point well taken and although people know on a rational level that it is a bad idea, there are/will be people that still might do it when they come to a bridge, but a personal story of loss may be the nail that puts the point home in one or two folks that may change the balance when it is their turn to make the decision. Personally I feel that despite whatever factor contributed to this: drugs, alcohol, peer pressure, guy knew better, whatever - that the discussion of it and how it applies to the hiking community is valid and should be out here for everyone to read. I don't intend on moving this thread off here and to a more secluded forum unless it gives too many people too much grief.

[QUOTE]

Well, Steve does also have a good point, like Jack. Jack said that, for safety, don't swim there. Steve said that for safety, don't drink. Seems to make sense to me, especially if together.

I don't know what happened in the case at hand, but I do know that I jumped off that bridge and swam around with no problem. It was a lot of clean hiker trash fun. I was not drinking.

So just swimming might not be so dangerous for a strong swimmer, but put alchohol in the equation, and you have a recipe for real danger. It's a well-known fact that alcohol slows reaction time, distrupts normal motor functions, and makes people downright dillusional -these are not good traits for swimmers.

At any rate, it's good that people know about these events and are able to learn from them.

smokymtnsteve
08-15-2005, 14:38
I'm not a young boy..but I can swim across that river...swimming across that river is no more dangerous than crossing highways at road crossings...

both activties are more dangerous to do when U R drunken and acting the fool.

Blister
08-15-2005, 16:06
I find two things unfortunate about this thread. The first being its subject as my sympathies go out to the family of the deceased, as well as how something like this will effect the college community as a whole. Dartmouth is a large part of the population here in Hanover. On my way to a couple of days hiking in the whites I passed over the bridge and could see them dragging for something. At the time I was unaware it was for a body until this thread. All this visible from the trail, as the blazes cross the Conn River. Leading me to my second point that I find unfortunate. A story and or event such as this I consider newsworthy for anyone on this section of the AT. Not only is it beneficial to be aware of the things that are going on around you, such an incident may make another possible tradgedy less likley to occur. I have also known many hikers whom have taken the luxury of a swim and or a jump into the river and not all drownings are the cause of alcoholic consumption. Many other factors can be involved - fatigue, cramping, health issues with lungs and heart to name a few. Again a very unfortunate incident, luckily it was not a AT hiker, however it can head warning to hikers of the outcome of possible actions.

tlbj6142
08-15-2005, 16:51
I take it you've never been to out of the country. Europe, Canada, the Islands? Walk-up or beach bars serving the best beers and exotic cocktails with little umbrellas! Canada is a country? Who knew. Honestly, since I have zero interest in drinking (99.9% tastes like *****, 'bout the only thing worst than most drinks is coffee, yuck!), I probably wouldn't notice such things. Its only when immersed in overberring social situations (like college) that such things "come to light".

Mountain Dew
08-16-2005, 14:48
austex, While I understand that you are paranoid about me now and think I was referring to you... I wasn't. geez.... hahahaaa

Sly, "Common sense injected here...Sounds like the only good thing Mountain Dew is going to be for in his new job is writing out parking tickets. Have a donut!" --- That's what you call a retort to my comments ? Typical low class... law breaking...homeless look-a-like whiner. CRY me a river .... :banana

get back on topic or shut it....

Sly
08-16-2005, 16:25
Typical low class... law breaking...homeless look-a-like whiner. CRY me a river ....

get back on topic or shut it....

Yes, officer... :rolleyes:

MOWGLI
08-16-2005, 16:44
Typical low class... law breaking...homeless look-a-like...


Hey, isn't that profiling?

Lone Wolf
08-16-2005, 16:46
Yeah. Not PC at all. :D

Sly
08-16-2005, 17:13
Just what Dallas needs, MD rousting thru-hiker look alikes. "Move on homeless cretin, take a hike!"

Heater
08-16-2005, 17:23
Just what Dallas needs, MD rousting thru-hiker look alikes. "Move on homeless cretin, take a hike!"
I grew up in Dallas and I'll tell you, the metermaids don't have that kind of authority. ;)

lilmountaingirl
08-18-2005, 01:36
That is a real shame. Not a good area to be trying to swim across ~ tradition or not. I spent many hot summer days jumping off of the bridge in West Hartford when I was growing up. Rented tubes from the country store and went tubing down the White River. Came damn near close to drowning in about 3 feet of water right before the bridge one summer ~ currents are stronger than you realize. Dumb on my part...but I learned my lesson.

Frosty
08-18-2005, 17:59
That is a real shame. Not a good area to be trying to swim across ~ tradition or not. I spent many hot summer days jumping off of the bridge in West Hartford when I was growing up. Rented tubes from the country store and went tubing down the White River. Came damn near close to drowning in about 3 feet of water right before the bridge one summer ~ currents are stronger than you realize. Dumb on my part...but I learned my lesson.The difference between an epic adventure and a tragedy is that if you survive, it is an epic adventure.

Mountain Dew
08-24-2005, 02:16
Austex, "I grew up in Dallas and I'll tell you, the metermaids don't have that kind of authority" --- hahahaaa I definetly WONT be a metermaid. I'd almost rather be one of the thoudands of homeless beggers in Austin who all seem to have skinny dogs on rope leashes as pets.

Mow, "Hey, isn't that profiling?" ---Yep sure is. Any good detective will tell you that profiling is a key tool in solving certain crimes. :welcome