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zelph
09-27-2013, 22:26
I've been wanting to hike Isle Royale in search of ancient copper mines. Has anyone hiked there with same interests in the copper mines?

While doing some research on the subject I came across this site:

Isle Royale Backpacking
A Guide for Backpacking on Isle Royale

http://isleroyalebackpack.com/

Also, anyone hiked the Keweenaw Peninsula with interests in the mines?

Wise Old Owl
09-28-2013, 05:37
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Isle_Royale_shipwrecks_Lake_Superior.jpg


blow the image up and several pits and mines are clearly marked at both ends of the map.

2420624207keep in mind 3000 years of copper people did "scratch the surface" pits and remove much of the valuable nuggets. The mines are part of the Copper conglomerate and from the geological survey are on the east side of the island only.

Here a fello hiker has a two images of the pits
http://cruisingonmonarchpart2.blogspot.com/2012/09/august-15-19-2012-isle-royale-national.html




The island offers approximately 170 miles (270 km) of hiking trails for everything from day hikes to a two-week circumnavigation hike.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_Royale#cite_note-ScoutingMagSeptOct2010-12) "The most popular, best marked and longest single route ...is the 40-mile Greenstone Ridge Trail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenstone_Ridge_Trail) that extends down the island's backbone."[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_Royale#cite_note-ScoutingMagSeptOct2010-12) The trail leads to the peak of Mount Desor, at 1,394 feet (425 m), the highest point on the island and also passes though northwoods wilderness, and by inland glacial lakes, swamps, bogs and scenic shorelines.


A backpackers experience

http://www.blackcoffeeatsunrise.com/2009/11/isle-royale-national-park-day-seven.html


More images.

http://astheyare.net/2011/09/02/isle-royale-national-park-final-night-on-the-island/

Wise Old Owl
09-28-2013, 05:45
Halfway down this page is the Minong mine ... with photos.

http://continuouswave.com/sail-logs/irnp2010/


Suzys Cave you tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=189RAOYY2_I

slow mind
09-28-2013, 08:15
Stop by isleroyaleforums.com We aren,t very active this time of year as hiking season is over on the island but ask a question and it will be answered. There are many pics of several mines in the trip reports section.

If you were to travel to the Island via the IR Queen out of copper harbor you will pass near countless old & ancient mining sites in the Keweenaw. The keweenaw county Historical Society can be very helpful here.

zelph
09-28-2013, 10:21
Wise Old Owl, I really appreciate all of the links that are given. It took me a long and enjoyable time reading through them.:) I will read through them again this evening.


Slow mind, I'll take you up on visiting the isleroyaleforums.com. I'll also see what I can find at the keweenaw county Historical Society online.

A few years ago my daughter and I spent a few days doing some short off road hikes on the peninsula. we stayed in Houghton as our base camp;)

http://www.cityofhoughton.com/

4Bears
09-29-2013, 22:42
I have hiked the Isle, I'm not sure what you are looking for as far as the mines are concerned, most are nothing more than shallow depressions. The Minong Mine is a "conventional" mine in the sense of a tunnel. Not sure how far back you could go due to water though. You can get a lot of info from the above referenced Isle Royale Forums, plenty of journals to read. It is a great place to hike and plenty of wildlife can be seen, moose, wolves, beaver, fox, eagles and osprey, just to name some. I found the folks who run the "Queen" most helpful for transportation to the north end and the "Voyager" for the south end, was never interested in taking the "Ranger" by the NPS as you will lose a whole day just getting there. In box me if I can help further.

sheepdog
09-30-2013, 04:34
I hiked it last year. The copper mines are basically hole in the ground about 20-25 feet deep. The sides are fairly steep. some of the wolves on the island fell in them and starved out last winter. Isle Royal is a great place to hike.

zelph
09-30-2013, 10:08
Thanks for the info and offers for additional info. I'll have questions in the coming months as I prepare for the journey.

The mines that were made by the ancient inhabitants of North America, 7 thousand years ago, the shallow ones, are the ones that I'm interested in. They used stone mauls as tools to extract small amounts at a time. Used fire to weaken the rock so they could bust it apart to get deeper into the strata. I want to put myself into an area off trail where there are some mines to kinda take myself off onto a commune with the ancients and nature, away from the hustle bustle of the norm. Just kinda day dream of what it was like way back when a days work was difficult.

Are the trails wide or are they kinda narrow with evergreen trees close to your shoulders? I envision the Isle densely overgrown with trees.

I'm still trying to locate some of my photos of some large copper nodules that were found on the peninsula. I'll post as soon as I find them.

Thanks again for your comments and insight.

OCDave
09-30-2013, 13:03
The trails you'll find on Isle Royale will be extremely varied and conditions, obviously will depend on when you are hiking the island.

I like the open rock ridges where the trail is marked only by carins- spectacular views. My wife prefers the long boardwalks through the bogs- fewer roots on which to stub a toe and more likely to spy a moose.

I've hiked in spring and the trails were wider/clearer but then you are contending with mosquitoes or much worse- The Black Flies (I hate black flies). Late Summer into Fall - foliage crowds the trails at knee to hip height through the woods but I never felt crowded by the trees. Late summer is most rewarding as the black flies are less an issue and blue berries and thimble berries can be harvested by the handsful as you hike. I have filled a 1 liter Smartwater bottle w/blueberries in less than 1/2hour (delightful w/breakfast). Thimbleberries- I eat 'em as fast as I can pick 'em.

With a canoe and a bit of skill, fish are plentiful in the lakes - so I'm told. I've never had much luck from shore.

I found the copper mines less impressive than I anticipated however, the entire Isle Royale National Park is an inspiring place and will accomodate communing with the ancients and nature alike.

Goog luck- enjoy planning your trip.

Dogwood
09-30-2013, 13:55
Regarding the mines(I explored three different ones), they are as 4Bears and Sheepdog says, mostly open hole surface mines although a couple do have shafts and one had a tunnel, all caved in or with water in them though. Easy places to get a nasty gash with the steel mining debris at some sites.

There was a book I picked up somewhere with one lengthy chapter on mining on Isle Royale NP with the various mining sites described, current diagrams of the sites, locations, what to be aware of, etc. Zelph, IRNP is a GREAT place to commune with nature. If you want to expand your experiences there strongly consider renting or bringing along a kayak/canoe for the interior lakes on the island and for paddling around the circumference of the island. It brings a much broader naturalistic experience to one's visit here. The various ferries will pick up/let off at a few spots around the island including portaging a kayak/canoe for you both around the island and to/from the mainland. Get a fishing license and bring your fishing poles as well and the connect with nature is that much more rewarding. Highly recommend you mix up your trip there by hiking, canoeing/kayaking, fishing, exploring the mines, etc. As is typical, the further you get away from where the people tend to congregate, in this case the ferry ports, the more naturalistic and largely uncrowded the settings. Don't forget to mix up campsites between the ridges, interior lake shores, and coastlines. Some of the coastline camping sites have small screen enclosed roofed shelters perfect for setting up a base camp in which to do day hikes exploring some of the mines while doing some late afternoon kayaking, fishing, and catching brilliant sunsets.

IRNP is a GEM! My advice is don't just hike it though! Get out on the water on the interior lakes and around the island on Lake Superior. The trails are well marked and obvious.

Dogwood
09-30-2013, 14:01
BTW, Zelph, that area of the U.P. is rife with copper mining so if you are in the area there are museums, etc that explain the mostly bygone copper mining industry in the U.P. I saw some close to 5 lb copper nuggets at one museum.

slow mind
09-30-2013, 15:15
Sent you a PM Zelf, I'd be happy to help ensure your trip is a good one!

1234
09-30-2013, 19:09
R U a rock hound? looking for associated minerals? I found a cool spot in Penn that had these blue rocks. Not in a NP or SP or Gamelands or anything like that but just off the trail close enough to see something blue.24240

zelph
10-02-2013, 22:46
You guys are making me wanna get to planning real quick :-)

I wanna get on the water and fish, collect rocks, go in the mines, listen to the wolves, watch the sunsets, sit by a campfire and waith for the perch to get cooked for lunch and dinner. I can eat fish 3 times a day :-))) and have fresh picked berries for desert. I'll plan to go later in the season to miss the black flies and skeeters.

"slow mind" thanks for the offer and I will surely keep you in mind. I'll be asking questions. The first photo that I viewed in your album looks as if a stone maul was one of the stones used in your fire ring. It sure looks like it has a pecked ring around the center for attaching a wood handle. The big dark one in the foreground by the thumb of you glove.

http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz160/drobarge/530366_561728453843761_354617621_n.jpg

1234, I am a rock hound. I have not cut and polished for a long time though. Those are some cool looking cabs you got there. Have you identified the rock and got some photos of it in its natural state? My daughter found this copper nugget/nodule on the Keeweenau peninsula, weighs 18.7 ounces, small but heavy.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/sub%20one/th_coppernugget001_zpsac748323.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/sub%20one/coppernugget001_zpsac748323.jpg.html)


My reading tells me an ancient mine can be identified by the entrance having rounded edges of the opening due to the use of stone mauls as compared to straight edges/walls caused by the use of dynamite.

I'm still trying to locate my album of photos taken on the peninsula. They may be on my laptop.

Thank you all for your valued input:)

4Bears
10-03-2013, 08:44
Zelph I have always enjoyed going to the Isle in the 3rd week of August fewer people and almost no skeeters, warm days and cool nights and with clear skies the stars are incredible!!

zelph
10-03-2013, 18:13
Zelph I have always enjoyed going to the Isle in the 3rd week of August fewer people and almost no skeeters, warm days and cool nights and with clear skies the stars are incredible!!

I'll plan to be there no earlier, I had my share of noseums and black flies(are they the same?) when I fished Ontario and Manitoba. I don't prefer to hike with a head net :-)

I found some photos of my trip to the peninsula:

taken at the university museum
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/sub%20one/th_4thofjulystove070.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/sub%20one/4thofjulystove070.jpg.html)

owner of mine found this on mine property, not for sale, pice had been pounced into this shape, work in process no doubt.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/sub%20one/th_4thofjulystove011.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/sub%20one/4thofjulystove011.jpg.html)

Natural copper form inside mine.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/sub%20one/th_4thofjulystove098.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/sub%20one/4thofjulystove098.jpg.html)

view out our motel room window(base camp)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/sub%20one/th_4thofjulystove052.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/sub%20one/4thofjulystove052.jpg.html)

Lamp used in mines. They were place in crevices along the shaft or in places where certain functions were performed.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/sub%20one/th_4thofjulystove077.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/sub%20one/4thofjulystove077.jpg.html)

I have more photos yet to be found. I'll keep looking.

dustfire
10-03-2013, 22:23
TY for all the info :)

dustfire
10-19-2013, 17:28
I'm Planning an IR trip in the late spring of 2014.. which of the mines is the best to see?

OCDave
10-19-2013, 17:58
... noseums and black flies(are they the same?) ...

Noseums, even mosquitoes are a very minor nusiance compared to Black Flies. Black Flies bite painfully, draw blood and are apparently immune to the effects of DEET or permethrin. When they feed it seems like your stuck in a horror movie but it is real. OK, maybe a bit dramatic but I HATE Black Flies.


Below is from MN DNR web site.

Black FliesBlack flies are in the family Simuliidae. The black fly is tiny, less than 1/4-inch long, with a dark body, humped thorax, and short head, antennae, and legs. Like mosquitoes, both male and female black flies get nutrition from plant nectar. Males are content with that food, but females use their cutting mouthparts to take blood from animals.
Life cycleAdult black flies are often found near the fast-flowing waters where they lay their eggs. Larvae look like dark worms. They attach to stones and logs underwater and feed on tiny organic particles, which they filter from the stream using fanlike structures. Pupae also live underwater. When adults emerge in spring, they float to the surface, mate, and begin feeding.
When does it bite?Because ice melts from moving waters before it melts from ponds and lakes, black flies emerge and bite earlier than other insects. The swarms begin feeding in late May. Fortunately, black flies produce only one generation each year. Their numbers peak in June.
How does it bite?Using four slashing teeth, the female fly cuts a shallow well in the victim’s skin. As blood seeps into the wound, the female laps it up. Her saliva contains chemicals to partially numb the nerves and an anticoagulant to keep the blood from clotting. These chemicals cause the skin around the bite to swell and itch.
The female uses temperature-sensitive cells in the tip of her antennae to help find victims. She also uses sight, and seems to be attracted to the color blue, such as a blue jacket, shirt, or jeans.
Because flies follow each other in swarms, we are likely to get several bites at a time. Unlike mosquitoes, black flies feed exclusively during the day; their feeding frenzies end after dark.

bfayer
10-19-2013, 21:39
Keep in mind bushwhacking on isle royale is not for the faint of heart. There are few places on earth where going off trail is less fun.

Also keep in mind disturbing any of the native american sites is a big no no.

Isle royal however is still one of my favorite places on earth, black flies and all.

zelph
10-20-2013, 22:35
I will do my best to avoid the black flies. My thoughts are to hit the high trails on the peaks of the ranges that the ancient miners made use of. Do black flies avoid the higher elevations? If I find some small pieces of copper I'll turn them in to the museum. If I can find evidence of ancient mines (Hammer Stones) I'll be a happy camper. I know the views will be spectacular from the high elevations.

4Bears
10-20-2013, 23:01
Zelph, I believe that park rules are leave it where you find it. By going in late August, early September black flies should not be a problem. Personally I have never been bitten by a skeeter up there at that time, haven't even used any Deet so far. YMMV .... If you intend to go off trail overnight you will have to get a permit for that and most likely show them you have some map and compass skills, special camping rules apply.

zelph
10-21-2013, 11:15
Zelph, I believe that park rules are leave it where you find it. By going in late August, early September black flies should not be a problem. Personally I have never been bitten by a skeeter up there at that time, haven't even used any Deet so far. YMMV .... If you intend to go off trail overnight you will have to get a permit for that and most likely show them you have some map and compass skills, special camping rules apply.

Thanks 4Bears for that info. I'll leave them where I find them.

I'm going to google for some trail maps to see if there are some that are on top of the ridges.

zelph
10-29-2013, 16:16
This video was informative:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvTT7UHjehc

bfayer
10-29-2013, 16:26
You will love the place even if you don't find any long lost copper mines.

By the way the my avatar picture was taken at Hatchet lake on Isle Royale.

zelph
10-29-2013, 19:53
You will love the place even if you don't find any long lost copper mines.

By the way the my avatar picture was taken at Hatchet lake on Isle Royale.

I can feel it in my bones a lost mine will appear while searching. :)

Can you catch perch or small mouth from shore at Hatchet Lake?

bfayer
10-29-2013, 20:55
I can feel it in my bones a lost mine will appear while searching. :)

Can you catch perch or small mouth from shore at Hatchet Lake?

We didn't catch anything at Hatchet Lake actually. Some say there are no fish in hatchet lake, some say there are. Saw other people pull yellow perch out of other lakes however.

But any excuse to throw a line and watch a sunset.

Dogwood
10-29-2013, 23:50
Zelph, whatever you do, if you come across any hoo doos do not topple any over!:D

Dogwood
10-30-2013, 00:15
"I wanna get on the water and fish, collect rocks, go in the mines, listen to the wolves, watch the sunsets, sit by a campfire and waith for the perch to get cooked for lunch and dinner. I can eat fish 3 times a day :-))) and have fresh picked berries for desert. I'll plan to go later in the season to miss the black flies and skeeters."

All possible with the one ? being the collection of anything as in displacing, removing, etc of rocks. In some NPs that is frowned upon or not allowed. I can't imagine if everyone visiting Haleakala or Hawaii Volcanoes NPs started taking chunks of lava rocks home. Pele can get touchy about her lava.:D

Zelph, were those UL wursts in the pan? :)

Sounds like you got a GREAT plan for IRNP. Enjoy!

Dogwood
10-30-2013, 00:23
They may frown upon you going into a mine too. And, again, the mines are mostly open pit surface ones.

If you're into mines, which can AND OFTEN are dangerous places, I can give you a few hikes where you'll find them. Caves and spelunking have to be approached with caution as well but you might look ibnto a few simpler(less dangerous) ones to explore. I do caving and mine exploring on hikes when appropriate. Did you know there are caving/mine exploring opps near and, in a few incidences I know of, adjacent to the AT?

Dogwood
10-30-2013, 01:00
Good vid although wish it showed the copper mines, coastal back country screened shelters, and ALL of the fire towers(I think there are three total). The hike those guys did was a real simple rather short popular one although they did go over Greenstone Ridge pretty much only bisecting it though. The NPS website has a sufficient enough trail map for on trail hiking purposes as well as showing the ferry routes and where the ferries stop. It's free. The NPS IRNP site is well done supplying comprehensive beta. It sounds like you could use more detailed info on the mining sites though. If I recall correctly the NPS had some books and simple maps specific to the mining sites. These materials I think are(were) available at the Rock Harbor Info Center at that Ferry Port. Don't remember what was at Windigo in the way of books and maps.

zelph
10-30-2013, 18:13
Screened shelters would nice to be able to see where they are. Be nice to use one of those as a base camp.

I have the book that I give a link to, very informative, scroll up and down for days of good reading if you're interested in Ancient Americans and mining on Lake Superior Shores:

I'll leave the spelunketing to you experts:) Those brats were my size and then some.

For those of you living in the state of New York read the book(link) about the ancient ones in your area

I'm getting cabin fever already.

Ancient Mining of Isle Royale



(http://books.google.com/books?id=Y_7n5wA3mOwC&pg=RA1-PA16&lpg=RA1-PA16&dq=ancient+mining+isle+royale+e.g.squire&source=bl&ots=vzLUQnuxB5&sig=IbpU4cb5aW0dSuSYalZsCCpYW6s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_YJxUvDQCajXyAGR4oDoDg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ancient%20mining%20isle%20royale%20e.g.squire&f=false)

bfayer
10-30-2013, 19:19
I'm sure you know this but the shelters on IRNP are not communal like the AT. They are first come first serve but they are not shared like the AT. If there is one person in a shelter and they don't want to share, they don't have to.

There are also time limits on how long you can stay at the different campgrounds that range from 1 day (at RH and Three Mile) to 5 days at some of the off shore campgrounds (need boat to get there). The campgrounds that have docks tend to get taken up by folks with boats or by people that hire the water taxi because they schedule their arrival time in the morning so they get there when the folks are packing up from the night before. Once you get away from the larger campgrounds with docks there is much less competition for space.

It's not that you can't get a shelter, but just like the AT, always plan to tent.

Dogwood
10-30-2013, 20:08
I'm sure you know this but the shelters on IRNP are not communal like the AT. They are first come first serve but they are not shared like the AT. If there is one person in a shelter and they don't want to share, they don't have to.

There are also time limits on how long you can stay at the different campgrounds that range from 1 day (at RH and Three Mile) to 5 days at some of the off shore campgrounds (need boat to get there). The campgrounds that have docks tend to get taken up by folks with boats or by people that hire the water taxi because they schedule their arrival time in the morning so they get there when the folks are packing up from the night before. Once you get away from the larger campgrounds with docks there is much less competition for space.

It's not that you can't get a shelter, but just like the AT, always plan to tent.

Here's a good link on the camping details to go along with what Bfayer is telling you. Good pts he's making. On the link you'll see more of what's available at each camping area. http://www.isle.royale.national-park.com/camping.htm Note where the chart tells of which camping areas have shelters in conjunction with the free NPS trail map.

Again, as I noted, the closer to the two main harbors(ferry docking ports- Windigo and ESPECIALLY Rock harbor) the crowded and consequently more competitive the shelters in the case of Rock Harbor(I do not think there is public screened shelter camping at Windigo). The Main port is RH. This is where the crowds tend to congregrate. Those campsites at and closest to RH tend to be the most congested. Daisy Farm(near RH with 16 shelters) was a zoo everytime I was there. I tell you all this so you have the option of(and best possibility of snagging a screened in shelter) should you desire or feel the need for one. It could come in handy knowing these things in case of prolonged rain or insect issues. From what you shared it sounds like a shelter would make a good base camp from which to experience some of the things you wish to do as day hikes. The camping areas aren't too far spaced apart though(actually quite conveniently spaced apart trail mileage wise) but the screened shelter containing campsites can be. McCargoe Cove has 6 shelters and would make a good base camp for hitting the Minong Mine site and to Hatchet and Desor Lakes to fish as day hikes providing ample time for you to wander around looking at rocks or fishing and then heading back to the McCargo Cove base camp. The campsites on the south of the island that are more peaceful and quiet w/ shelters I've stayed at were Malone Bay and Moskey Basin. Again campsite character can vary. Some are on the coastline, some are near the Greenstone Ridgeline, some are in crowded areas, some are definitely lesser used in more remote areas, some are used more by boaters(at McCargo Cove I've always camped there with boaters, one boater allowed me use of one of his canoes, YEAH!), some are on lakes, some you have to boat into. etc. Mix em up. If your budget and logistics work strongly consider that renting and portaging by ferry of a canoe/kayak opportunity. Having plans for fishing and serene paddling on the island's lakes and perhaps if conditions allow on Lake Superior IMHO should be enjoyed to a greater extent by visitors. Some visitors aren't fully aware of the additional boating possibilites(I wasn't the first time I visited IRNP). telling U all this so your visit there can be the BEST it can the FIRST TIME you go there. Sounds to me IRNP fits very well into what you want to achieve in a trek. This is the type of place w/ your goals I think you might want to enjoy again and again and.... Wolves, moose, plants, woods, boating, fishing(both salt and freshwater, cool ferry ride to the NP, food/concession stands, paddling, and oh I almost forgot to mention rockhound/mining exploring opps, etc etc

I have all this info that I think others can use, and that I want to see others avail themselves of. Have a GReeat trip. Life's an adventure. Live LIFE to the fullest! Carpe Diem.

bfayer
10-30-2013, 21:23
Windigo has shelters, the campground is Washington creek. Much less crowded than RH, and home of the worlds most expensive showers :)

24674

Three years ago at Washington Creek after hiking from Rock harbor.

bfayer
10-30-2013, 21:42
One more Picture just to keep you motivated :)

24675

Todd harbor

zelph
10-30-2013, 22:56
You guys are getting me really pumped up for a longer stay than expected :) I may have to plan on a months worth.:D

With all the information provided so far, if there are lots of people reading this thread, the attendance on the Isle will increase quite a bit next season:)

bfayer, red sky at night, sailors delight:cool:

Because of the Lake effect, I will be in a tent;) Don't trust a hammock to gale force winds :-))))

zelph
12-03-2013, 00:16
Today I came across a few of my photos taken in the UP at a worked out mine that turned into a tourist attraction. Got to go on a personal tour in their back cave where they keep their "museum specimens" the copper pieces were huge. Local copper hunters find these huge chunks and sell them to the mine owner who inturn sells them to museums.

Random photos:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/th_4thofjulystove010-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/4thofjulystove010-1.jpg.html)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/th_4thofjulystove009-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/4thofjulystove009-1.jpg.html)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/th_4thofjulystove008-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/4thofjulystove008-1.jpg.html)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/th_4thofjulystove007-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/4thofjulystove007-1.jpg.html)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/th_4thofjulystove006-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/4thofjulystove006-1.jpg.html)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/th_4thofjulystove083.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/4thofjulystove083.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/th_4thofjulystove066.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/4thofjulystove066.jpg.html)