What happen if National Parks close?

[Many Moons]

Hey All,
What happens if the great one's in DC can't work it out and they close the National Parks in October with the AT thru the Smokies? They say the National Parks will close and all employees not working. Will my shelter reservations still be good? HIKE ON!!!

Miller

[Sly]

Serious boondoggle. While the government may shut down, it's hard to imagine the service providers taking time off, or the parks actually closing.

I'd say your permit is safe.

[kayak karl]

if it do happen, who would tell you you could not camp??

[A.T.Lt]

if it do happen, who would tell you you could not camp??
The Senate and the House... apparently Mark Sanford will be out there hiking the AT to make sure every one stays out

[WingedMonkey]

The Interior Department said it would have no choice but to close 368 parks — giving campers and hotel guests 48 hours to vacate — as well as halt any non-emergency use of Bureau of Land Management acres and furlough, initially, 58,541 employees of its nearly 73,000-strong workforce.

Essential services, such as law enforcement, would continue, Interior said in its contingency plan.



http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/56930128-90/close-congress-continue-government.html.csp

[Wise Old Owl]

The trees will still be there... enjoy


just park outside

[WingedMonkey]

The official response.

The National Park Service’s contingency plan:

http://www.doi.gov/shutdown/upload/NPS-Contingency-Plan-December-15-2011.pdf

[atmilkman]

Hey All,
What happens if the great one's in DC can't work it out and they close the National Parks in October with the AT thru the Smokies? They say the National Parks will close and all employees not working. Will my shelter reservations still be good? HIKE ON!!!

Miller

That bunch is truly a work of art.

[Marta]

I remember hearing about thru-hikers being stopped at the edge of Shenandoah NP during the shutdown during the Clinton years. (Did that story appear in A Walk in the Woods?) One of those bizarre decisions that there was money to post guards to stop people from entering the Park, rather than simply let them hike through the Park without any employees being present.

[lush242000]

Hey All,
What happens if the great one's in DC can't work it out and they close the National Parks in October with the AT thru the Smokies? They say the National Parks will close and all employees not working. Will my shelter reservations still be good? HIKE ON!!!

Miller

Looks like you could camp wherever you want...




Sent from somewhere.

[russb]

Looks like you could camp wherever you want...



On the link provided above it appears to prohibit any recreational use of the park land. see closedown procedure (phase 2) step 3. Found on pg 8.

Not sure how anyone besides park officials are to know about it? The only signage they describe is that no services are provided. I don't think the trees and the ground are considered a service. Why then would the signage not say "no access" if that is the case?

[BobTheBuilder]

This is near and dear to my heart as I have a section hike coming up in a week and I was planning to park (and finish) inside SNP. If the shutdown happens, it will just be a shorter hike and I will need to finish, and park, before the park boundary.

[gollwoods]

all national parks would be shut down so the rangers would throw you out after letting you donate to reduce the debt. or if you are really fortunate give you a little time to reflect away from your usual life.

[illabelle]

all national parks would be shut down so the rangers would throw you out after letting you donate to reduce the debt. or if you are really fortunate give you a little time to reflect away from your usual life.

I can hardly imagine a more inane reason for our upcoming trip to Vermont to be ruined! I can understand if our trip is ruined because one of us got sick or injured, but really, they can't just let us hike through the Green Mountains on our own? What possible difference will it make to our hike if the government is or isn't shut down? We're not using park services anywhere that I'm aware of. We're just walking on land owned by the citizens of this country, us. Are they really going to post rangers at road crossings and send them to the backcountry to chase people out, fine them, and possibly arrest them? Our $900+ in plane tickets are not refundable! Washington, Somebody, please please please make this problem go away! :mad:

[Lone Wolf]

there are no national parks in vermont

[illabelle]

there are no national parks in vermont

Won't Green Mountain National Forest be affected in a similar manner as the parks?

[Majortrauma]

The shutdown is inevitable but don't let that stop your hiking plans. They're our parks and when they cut down to only essential personnel there is not a chance those "essential personnel" will be wandering the wood and trails looking for naughty hikers.

[Lone Wolf]

Won't Green Mountain National Forest be affected in a similar manner as the parks?

no. not at all

[illabelle]

no. not at all

Thanks, LW. That's good to know, and quite a relief!

[Trillium]

I remember hearing about thru-hikers being stopped at the edge of Shenandoah NP during the shutdown during the Clinton years. (Did that story appear in A Walk in the Woods?) One of those bizarre decisions that there was money to post guards to stop people from entering the Park, rather than simply let them hike through the Park without any employees being present.I can confirm that when the shutdown occurred that we were prevented from driving in to the Everglades. There were barricades across the road and a guard to prevent us from entering. It amazed us that there was money to post guards but not to allow visitors.

[bert304]

I seen them close parking lots by putting up barriers to stop you from parking. How would they stop you from hiking? If they shut down, would that not mean that there would be a reduction in personnel to enforce the rules?:-?

[Jeff]

Keep in mind if you are hurt and needing a rescue this shutdown issue may complicate things.

[gollwoods]

The National Parks Service oversees national parks and forest lands set aside for use by the public. Though these lands are specifically operated so the public has access to them, they are not open to the public at all times. Anyone who sets foot on national forest lands when they are closed to the public can be charged with trespass. The penalties for this include fines and imprisonment for up to six months

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/list_6455738_federal-criminal-trespassing-laws.html#ixzz2gIIhRMKk

[aficion]

The National Parks Service oversees national parks and forest lands set aside for use by the public. Though these lands are specifically operated so the public has access to them, they are not open to the public at all times. Anyone who sets foot on national forest lands when they are closed to the public can be charged with trespass. The penalties for this include fines and imprisonment for up to six months

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/list_6455738_federal-criminal-trespassing-laws.html#ixzz2gIIhRMKk

"When ya ain't got nuthin, ya got nuthin to lose." Our illustrious government offers free room and board for six months if ya get caught trespassin and can't pay your fine. Is this a great country or what.

[gollwoods]

some more crap
http://www.usda.gov/documents/usda-fs-shutdown-plan.pdf

[Another Kevin]

The National Parks Service oversees national parks and forest lands set aside for use by the public. Though these lands are specifically operated so the public has access to them, they are not open to the public at all times. Anyone who sets foot on national forest lands when they are closed to the public can be charged with trespass. The penalties for this include fines and imprisonment for up to six months

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/list_6455738_federal-criminal-trespassing-laws.html#ixzz2gIIhRMKk


some more crap
http://www.usda.gov/documents/usda-fs-shutdown-plan.pdf

Note that US Forest Service - which oversees the National Forest lands - is distinct from National Park Service. Unlike the NPS shutdown plan, the USFS shutdown plan that gollwoods linked makes no mention of expelling members of the public that have ventured onto National Forest lands, nor any mention of closing them to the public. (Normally, forests are closed to the public only during an emergency such as a forest fire, flood or avalanche.) I'm not sure of the formal status of the A-T (which is a National Scenic Trail administered by the NPS) where it traverses USFS lands.

Closing the national parks is always the first resort in a budget dispute, because it's such a highly visible sign of austerity. Needless to say, in a shutdown the agencies wouldn't really have spare manpower to police the backcountry. As someone mentioned upthread, this would most likely complicate search and rescue if such were needed. It would also limit the amount of law enforcement done in the backcountry. Since site policy forbids discussion of lawbreaking, I'll let the reader draw any further implications.

If the worst comes to pass, you could always come hike in upstate New York! Our Catskill Park is larger than all but one of the National Parks in the lower 48, and our Adirondack Park is larger than any four of them put together. There's some fantastic hiking here that a Federal shutdown wouldn't touch.

[Alligator]

Please do not post about breaking the law in the event the National Parks are closed due to shutdown.

As mentioned, the National Forests are separate administrative units. They will have their own shutdown contingency plans.

Also, do not use this thread nor any other threads to get into the politics creating this possible impasse.

As it is getting rather close, keep discussion limited to the impacts affecting hiking the trail.

Thank you.

[LuckyMan]

I hold paid backcountry reservations for a long-anticipated 14-day hike in GSMNP in October on the AT, Benton Mackeye and other trails. I called the backcountry office today for info and got only vague talk from a ranger that he thought no rec use would be allowed, but he seemed unsure and suggested calling back later this week.
I too have vague recollections of news accounts during the 1990s shutdown of guards turning AT hikers away from Shenandoah. So now what?
(if pols want to pitch a tantrum, couldn't they just hold their breath for an hour or two?)

[Another Kevin]

Please do not post about breaking the law in the event the National Parks are closed due to shutdown.

As mentioned, the National Forests are separate administrative units. They will have their own shutdown contigency plans.

Also, do not use this thread nor any other threads to get into the politics creating this possible impasse.

As it is getting rather close, keep discussion limited to the impacts affecting hiking the trail.

Thank you.

Surely! Let me just state one general principle of law, and then be quiet. I argue that it is a principle that applies broadly on the trail as in everyday life. Stating it comes close to being a political discussion only because law is inextricably intertwined with the politics that create it.

A bedrock principle of law in our society is that it is created by the Legislature, enforced by the Executive, and interpreted by the Judiciary. The Executive has no power to create law beyond what the Legislature has delegated to it. And law is not law until it is promulgated: we as citizens have a right to know the metes and bounds of what is legal.

How would I apply this to a shutdown? In the event that a shutdown closes the national parks, the A-T outside NPS lands (for example, on easements on private land, in state parks, or in USFS lands) remains in a legal grey area with no Judicial precedent to guide it - we have little legal experience with the impact of a Federal shutdown on trail easements. If an actual landowner announces closure, I shall respect the landowner's rights.

If Federal agents attempt to close a trail easement without legislation mandating it, or without at least notice of the closure either in the Federal Register or posted according to State requirements near the point where I enter, then I (if I can find the time to get away) fully intend to enter on the grounds that no law forbids it and that I as a member of the public can presume a right of entry. (Note that trail easements are granted to the public, not to the government.) In short: I believe myself to be breaking no law.

If a Federal agent claims that I am wrong, then the legal precedent on trespass is generally that it does not take place until the intruder knows (by being directly ordered to depart) or ought to know that he is trespassing. If he ought to know, it is by virtue of notice being posted, or by presumption that one may not enter a dwelling or its curtilage without permission. So the worst that ought to happen - given that notice has not been published nor posted that the public is excluded - is that the Federal agent orders me to depart, and I am not a trespasser until and unless I fail to comply and depart by the most expeditious route. Which, of course, I shall do. I find it highly unlikely that a jury would find against me. (As a practical matter, I also find it unlikely in the event of a shutdown that there would be the staff available to police the grey area, but that's not really relevant: I'm staying on the right side of the law at all times, as far as I can tell.)

Any discussion of the arguments that a prosecutor might advance to convince a jury otherwise would stray into forbidden realms of politics. But a prudent challenger to the "law" should be warned that a likely outcome is that the "trespasser" will be haled into court to face stand-alone charges of "resisting arrest," "disorderly conduct," or "aiding and abetting," with no underlying charge to justify the "arrest," no lawful order disobeyed by the "disorderly" conduct, and no actual crime being "abetted." Those who wish to avoid defending against such charges should behave accordingly.

In short, I am not advocating lawbreaking, because I do not intend to be, nor advise others to be, anywhere that we are ordered to stay out of. I therefore hold that any law I plan to break is, in fact, no law at all.

I view this discussion as analogous to an earlier one in which I remarked that, while New York has no state law prohibiting hitchhiking, many counties - including all but one that the A-T traverses - forbid it, and New York's drivers' manual states, erroneously, that it is unlawful to pick up hitchhikers. Which makes hitching difficult in New York because "everyone knows it's illegal" (including the local cops!), even though the legislature has never seen fit to pass such a law.

Legally: "There's no law against it." Practically: "The nonexistent law is still widely enforced as if it existed." Politically: "Proceed as you find principled and prudent, in light of the legal and practical considerations. It would be inappropriate for me to advocate a position here."

[gollwoods]

so you are saying no one will be in trouble for using the A T if the national forests are closed to users. this is a fact you are saying that there is no point discussing it because you know that HOW?

[LuckyMan]

I hold paid backcountry reservations for a long-anticipated 14-day hike in GSMNP in October on the AT, Benton Mackeye and other trails. I called the backcountry office today for info and got only vague talk from a ranger that he thought no rec use would be allowed, but he seemed unsure and suggested calling back later this week.
I too have vague recollections of news accounts during the 1990s shutdown of guards turning AT hikers away from Shenandoah. So now what?
(if pols want to pitch a tantrum, couldn't they just hold their breath for an hour or two?)

[Alligator]

Surely! Let me just state one general principle of law, and then be quiet. I argue that it is a principle that applies broadly on the trail as in everyday life. Stating it comes close to being a political discussion only because law is inextricably intertwined with the politics that create it.

A bedrock principle of law in our society is that it is created by the Legislature, enforced by the Executive, and interpreted by the Judiciary. The Executive has no power to create law beyond what the Legislature has delegated to it. And law is not law until it is promulgated: we as citizens have a right to know the metes and bounds of what is legal.

How would I apply this to a shutdown? In the event that a shutdown closes the national parks, the A-T outside NPS lands (for example, on easements on private land, in state parks, or in USFS lands) remains in a legal grey area with no Judicial precedent to guide it - we have little legal experience with the impact of a Federal shutdown on trail easements. If an actual landowner announces closure, I shall respect the landowner's rights.

If Federal agents attempt to close a trail easement without legislation mandating it, or without at least notice of the closure either in the Federal Register or posted according to State requirements near the point where I enter, then I (if I can find the time to get away) fully intend to enter on the grounds that no law forbids it and that I as a member of the public can presume a right of entry. (Note that trail easements are granted to the public, not to the government.) In short: I believe myself to be breaking no law.

If a Federal agent claims that I am wrong, then the legal precedent on trespass is generally that it does not take place until the intruder knows (by being directly ordered to depart) or ought to know that he is trespassing. If he ought to know, it is by virtue of notice being posted, or by presumption that one may not enter a dwelling or its curtilage without permission. So the worst that ought to happen - given that notice has not been published nor posted that the public is excluded - is that the Federal agent orders me to depart, and I am not a trespasser until and unless I fail to comply and depart by the most expeditious route. Which, of course, I shall do. I find it highly unlikely that a jury would find against me. (As a practical matter, I also find it unlikely in the event of a shutdown that there would be the staff available to police the grey area, but that's not really relevant: I'm staying on the right side of the law at all times, as far as I can tell.)

Any discussion of the arguments that a prosecutor might advance to convince a jury otherwise would stray into forbidden realms of politics. But a prudent challenger to the "law" should be warned that a likely outcome is that the "trespasser" will be haled into court to face stand-alone charges of "resisting arrest," "disorderly conduct," or "aiding and abetting," with no underlying charge to justify the "arrest," no lawful order disobeyed by the "disorderly" conduct, and no actual crime being "abetted." Those who wish to avoid defending against such charges should behave accordingly.

In short, I am not advocating lawbreaking, because I do not intend to be, nor advise others to be, anywhere that we are ordered to stay out of. I therefore hold that any law I plan to break is, in fact, no law at all.

I view this discussion as analogous to an earlier one in which I remarked that, while New York has no state law prohibiting hitchhiking, many counties - including all but one that the A-T traverses - forbid it, and New York's drivers' manual states, erroneously, that it is unlawful to pick up hitchhikers. Which makes hitching difficult in New York because "everyone knows it's illegal" (including the local cops!), even though the legislature has never seen fit to pass such a law.

Legally: "There's no law against it." Practically: "The nonexistent law is still widely enforced as if it existed." Politically: "Proceed as you find principled and prudent, in light of the legal and practical considerations. It would be inappropriate for me to advocate a position here."The AT is a National Scenic Trail, I think in most cases enforcement authority is by where it is located, with overall guidance from NPS (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hiking/hiking-basics/regulations-permits). Also this thread is about the Parks. If the Parks are closed, the AT is closed through the parks. (Unless you are finding something that says management authority for National Scenic Trails is not determined by administrative unit location.) This dog and pony show has occurred before, and there are already laws in place on how it goes down. The Executive branch has authority to manage the NPS. When there is a shutdown, there are essential and nonessential employees. Top management is typically retained among the essential employees. They will have shutdown protocols put in place per laws already established. The things they need to undertake are already primed up before any shutdown and will get published. I haven't looked for them but some have been posted already. Read the one posted by WM from Dec 15th of 2011.

They may have law enforcement counted among essential employees. I don't know any park rangers personally to ask them how they are classified. That is more of a side issue anyway. I am fairly certain however that the Sec of the Interior is considered essential and will be able to direct shutdown operations, as are very likely park superintendants and forest supervisors. The decision makers will still be working and able to decide closures. It is not actually the entire government closing.

What you do outside the National Parks is a different matter. If the management authority is federal and there is a shutdown, there will be decisions made about closures. So please do not post about breaking the law by saying you are entering any areas noted as closed. Thank you.

[Another Kevin]

I've already announced that I am NOT entering any areas POSTED or PUBLISHED as closed, and I'm leaving when requested.

I'm also not staying home based on rumor and innuendo. That's all.

[Rasty]

Go to a state park instead for the three days the parks are closed.

[Many Moons]

I have the North end reservations for shelters the 18th-20th in three shelters. It just sucks after spending killer bucks on my sons gear we might have to change plans. Hope they fix it before the deadline. I need to do this section to for my AT section hike on the way to K. I have been trying not to skip and jump around on the trail, but do it on a path without gaps. We will probably still do a hike somewhere near on the AT. Just wish the dudes in DC would get their fights done before the deadlines. We are all victims liberal and conservatives! HIKE ON!!!


Miller

[ednotmilkman]

I know from a 2011 federal "****down" threat here in AL regarding Talladega N F and volunteer work that they had planned with us volunteers, that USFS will also announce a lot of closings but probably not close the trails for backcountry hiking. The rangers HAVE to preach what the boss says, but I seriously doubt there would be any on duty to keep me from running my weedeater on the trail, if they didn't get paid for it. oh, there is an alternate spelling for shutdown :-)

On 4/8/2011 2:47 PM, Lesley Hodge wrote:>
> Hello everyone!
>
> I am sure some of you watch CNN and are aware of a possible government shut down. We will not know if we shut down until after midnight tonight. If there is a government shut down, your volunteer agreements will be suspended until the government reopens. Please do not do any volunteer work on National Forest lands in the event the government does shut down. I do apologize for any and all inconvenience this may bring to you.
>
> Thank you for working with us and in advance for your patience.
>
> Lesley
>Lesley M. Hodge
>Natural Resource Specialist
>USDA- Talladega National Forest- Shoal Creek RD
>45 Highway 281
>Heflin, AL 36264

[Sarcasm the elf]

Does anyone know offhand whether the trail in Georgia goes is at risk of being affected? I'm not sure what lands it crosses in that section.

[Lone Wolf]

the AT in Georgia is in national forest. it won't be affected

[Mrs Baggins]

Just realized after reading this thread....I have an overnight backpacking trip planned with 6 other ladies from Turners Gap into Harpers Ferry this weekend. If the shutdown happens and then lasts that long, HF is a National Park. The whole town is, right? So not only would people who had planned to leave cars at the Visitors Center Friday night or Saturday morning not be able to do that, even if they did somehow manage it they couldn't get back up there because the shuttle buses wouldn't be running. Long steep walk back up there. (Yeah, I know, after walking nearly 20 miles why quibble about another couple of miles to the VC? Because no one wants to have go yet another few miles when they thought the hike was over. It's that simple.) At any rate...can they close down the town? If the rangers or park police monitor the parking lots, spaces, and the streets, then I would guess there will be no parking in or even driving thru town. I realize people live there full time and there's probably some kind of plan for them to get out and back in by showing proof that they live there. Don't know what that would mean for the retail store owners and food service places if the owners/employees don't live in town.

We'd be finishing up the hike on that 2 miles of C&O Canal towpath into town....isn't the C&O also a National Park? So would they barricade that, too? The bridge into town? Barricaded? The boundary of the park extends up the AT south of Loudon Heights - barricaded?

[kayak karl]

Do some reading on the subject other then WB. no town is being shut down.

[Coffee]

isn't the C&O also a National Park? So would they barricade that, too? The bridge into town? Barricaded? The boundary of the park extends up the AT south of Loudon Heights - barricaded?

I run on the C&O Canal towpath almost every day (near Washington DC) and there is no way anyone can possibly close it. It would take more manpower and money to "close" it than the minimal amount (if any) that it costs to keep it open.

[Mrs Baggins]

Do some reading on the subject other then WB. no town is being shut down.

Harpers Ferry is a National Park, not just a town. Ultimately who has the jurisdiction? The county it's in? The state? Or the National Park System?

[Jeff]

An ATC newsletter states that in the event of a govt shutdown all trail maintenance should cease including volunteer maintenance.


Government Shutdown? Don't Work on the A.T.

If Congress fails to reach a budget agreement by midnight on Monday, September 30, the National Park Service anticipates closing parks and having only “essential personnel” on the job.

Trail volunteers should be aware that, should that occur, the Volunteers in the Parks (and Volunteers in the Forests) programs will not be in effect. Lack of that protection would expose A.T. workers to tort claims and medical costs in the event of an accident.

Therefore, in the event of a government shutdown, all trail work should cease on the Appalachian Trail.

[KKBaloney]

I just spoke to Recreation.gov (the people who handle the campground reservations at National Parks). The person I spoke to said that campground reservations will be automatically cancelled in the event of a shutdown and the reservation holder would be notified by email. Refunds would be made for cancelled reservations.

The person I spoke with didn't have any more information. Specifically, she didn't know how far out reservations would be cancelled and what would happen to cancelled reservations if the government reopens during the reservation period.

[Mrs Baggins]

From SNP's Facebook posting:

We are hoping that a government shutdown will not happen. However, if it does, all national park sites, including Shenandoah will close. This means that the entire park will be closed including all facilities, lodges, entrances, trails and the backcountry.

[Emerson Bigills]

I was planning to spend the night of Oct 2 in the Leconte Shelter in GSMNP. Looks like I will spend that night in Pidgeon Forge instead. From the penthouse to the outhouse.

[Trance]

I'm going to The Whites to climb Mount Washington, Lions Head Trail, on Thursday.... then to Acadia the following monday.... anyone know if I will have trouble at either of these? I'm guessing alittle at Acadia... but can they really stop me from hiking in at the Joe Dodge Lodge/Pinkham Notch area up Tuckermans/Lions to Mt Washington?

[Alligator]

4. Discussions involving how to commit illegal acts, or involving the use, production and/or distribution of illegal drugs are forbidden.I guess I have to say this again. If there are parts of the trail closed due to a shutdown, don't post about how you are going to get around it. Last warning.

White Mountain National Forest is administered by the FS, and may have different restrictions than those put out by NPS. Acadia is a NP though and most likely will be closed, try NPS.gov.

[illabelle]

I guess I have to say this again. If there are parts of the trail closed due to a shutdown, don't post about how you are going to get around it. Last warning.

White Mountain National Forest is administered by the FS, and may have different restrictions than those put out by NPS. Acadia is a NP though and most likely will be closed, try NPS.gov.

This is an important and highly relevant thread. It would be a shame if it was closed. Maybe the rest of us can be more proactive about reminding people who may not have taken the time to read the whole thread. Hopefully the Powers That Be will take the time to enlighten us in the upcoming days as the legislative drama unfolds.

As for me, I've identified an alternate section if we get shut out of our VT trip.

[redseal]

I'm following this subject closely because I was planning to do SNP in the very near future. Might have to make last minute changes and hike south of SNP and hope I can find a shuttle on short notice!

[illabelle]

A reminder: It's not just law-breaking that is taboo for discussion, but also politics. Please help keep the thread open by not going there.

If you find the shutdown frustrating, instead of political vents, just throw in one (or several) of these guys. They can't talk!
:( :mad:

[chasby]

From SNP's Facebook posting:

We are hoping that a government shutdown will not happen. However, if it does, all national park sites, including Shenandoah will close. This means that the entire park will be closed including all facilities, lodges, entrances, trails and the backcountry.

I'm on my southbound thru-hike right now and at the tail end of SNP. If there are any trail blockades or 'officials' posted up I'll be sure to take a picture. This is quite a ridiculous situation.

[illabelle]

I'm on my southbound thru-hike right now and at the tail end of SNP. If there are any trail blockades or 'officials' posted up I'll be sure to take a picture. This is quite a ridiculous situation.

Wow, your first post, and you've been on WB for almost 2 years! Here's a long overdue :welcome

[aficion]

I'm on my southbound thru-hike right now and at the tail end of SNP. If there are any trail blockades or 'officials' posted up I'll be sure to take a picture. This is quite a ridiculous situation.

Likewise... Welcome and thanks for whatever up to date info you are able to provide..............and congrats on your SOBO progress.:)

[Marta]

There are so many different situations its difficult to make one rule fit all. On the east side of Glacier NP there is no private property inside the Park, so they can lock the gate and forbid access. On the west side, there is some private property inside the Park. The gates will not be locked, so there will be access to some areas.

Most of Glacier's services have already shut for the season, so there won't be a lot of difference to casual visitors. I imagine the one or two campgrounds that are supposed to remain open for the winter won't be open. No backcountry permits will be issued. And so on.

Hopefully all CDT NOBOs are done and well away already. Besides the shutdown issue, the weather has been appalling!

[big-boy-cat]

Greetings, I have a section hike planned from Springer Mountain to Fontana Dam. I am parking at Fontana Dam and a shuttle is taking me to Springer Mountain access. I am leaving tomorrow night for my drive down, will the shut down have any impact on this portion of the trail? Thanks in advance for any input.

[The Solemates]

supposed to head to the Grand Canyon for a 5 day trip on friday. this sure does suck. i bet havasupai is already booked. any recommendations on an AZ trail section hike?

[Rasty]

Greetings, I have a section hike planned from Springer Mountain to Fontana Dam. I am parking at Fontana Dam and a shuttle is taking me to Springer Mountain access. I am leaving tomorrow night for my drive down, will the shut down have any impact on this portion of the trail? Thanks in advance for any input.

It's a TVA parking lot so it should be fine.

[big-boy-cat]

Thanks a bunch!

[Slo-go'en]

Only National Parks are affected, National Forests would be pretty hard to close off.

[max patch]

The ATC website says that 700 miles of the AT are closed.

[redseal]

Where is the 700? I never realized that much was part of the NPS.


The ATC website says that 700 miles of the AT are closed.

[peakbagger]

The White Mountain National Forest Supervisor gave an interview this morning, that the trails and campgrounds are open during the shutdown but there will be no maintenance. They will start shutting down campgrounds if the shutdown persists.

Many of the trailheads in the whites for the AT are on state land so it would be difficult to limit access.

[max patch]

Where is the 700? I never realized that much was part of the NPS.

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/who-we-are/news/2013/10/01/government-shutdown-limits-access-and-use-of-appalachian-trail-by-hikers-and-volunteers

They do not specify what parts are open or closed. A map of the AT colored blue (closed) and red (open) would be useful.

[max patch]

Where is the 700? I never realized that much was part of the NPS.

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/who-we-are/news/2013/10/01/government-shutdown-limits-access-and-use-of-appalachian-trail-by-hikers-and-volunteers

They do not specify what parts are open or closed. A map of the AT colored blue (closed) and red (open) would be useful.

[Hill Ape]

I read an article (can't find it now, the volume of articles on the shut down is getting heavy) that specifically said Appalachian hikers would not be affected. Hike in/Hike out will not be stopped. Not all trails are being affected by the shutdown. Parking and services are still closed though.

[Venchka]

I read an article (can't find it now, the volume of articles on the shut down is getting heavy) that specifically said Appalachian hikers would not be affected. Hike in/Hike out will not be stopped. Not all trails are being affected by the shutdown. Parking and services are still closed though.

Was that information National Park specific? The "press release", a.k.a. Facebook Babble, from S.N.P. directly contradicts your paraphrasing from an article somewhere.

If you can indeed walk into G.S.M.N.P., now might be the best time to enjoy the park. Embrace the solitude. Leave your cell phone at home. Nobody will be on duty to answer a distress call.

Wayne

[HooKooDooKu]

If you can indeed walk into G.S.M.N.P., now might be the best time to enjoy the park. Embrace the solitude. Leave your cell phone at home. Nobody will be on duty to answer a distress call.
Media sources are reporting that the GSMNP is shutting down. That includes, front country camp sites, back country camp sites, picnic areas, hiking trails, and roads. The only exception will be some of the thru-roads like 441 taking you from Gatlinburg to Cherokee.

I say "closing" not "closed" because some of the details vary. For example, the LeConte Lodge (a concession within the park) announced that those with reservations for tonight (October 1st) will be allowed. Others with reservations until the closures is lifted will be offered refunds. I believe front country campers have been given 48 hours notice to leave. I EXPECT that every trail head along the few open roads (such as 441) will have signs indicating the back country is closed. So while there might not be anyone there to enforce the closer, it will still be illegal to enter the back country (presumably starting tomorrow based on the information proved by LeConte Logde). Those that are already in the back country will be given "reasonable" time to leave. The only thing I have not heard anything about is how will they inform those in the back country that the place is closed. Rangers today very well may be walking the back-country to report the closures. They only have to walk the AT and any other back country sites were people have reservations.

So there you have it. So facts, some speculation, but for sure, if congress does not act, everything concerning the GSMNP will be shut down before this weekend - save the main thru-roads.

[Mrs Baggins]

From the C&O Canal's own FB posting today:

We're sorry to report that due to the shutdown of our Federal Government, the C&O Canal National Historical Park is CLOSED. This means the towpath, hiker/bikers, campgrounds, hiking trails, and Visitors Centers are CLOSED TO ALL VISITOR TRAFFIC. More information can be found on the Trust's website.

[Mrs Baggins]

From the C&O Canal's own FB posting today:

We're sorry to report that due to the shutdown of our Federal Government, the C&O Canal National Historical Park is CLOSED. This means the towpath, hiker/bikers, campgrounds, hiking trails, and Visitors Centers are CLOSED TO ALL VISITOR TRAFFIC. More information can be found on the Trust's website.


Also, when people questioned the enforcement of it after the posting was made, they responded that law enforcement would be patrolling the towpath. I imagine they'd do it in vehicle and maybe on bikes.

[Furlough]

The entire Shenandoah National Park is closed this includes all facilities, lodges, entrances, trails & the back country.

[JustADude]

Is that the only section closed between Harpers Ferry and Free State Hostel?

[HikerMom58]

The Blue Ridge Parkway is open for travel. All services along the BRP are closed. (Peaks of Otter Lodge etc..) The Parkway itself is still open! :)

[Mrs Baggins]

Just saw a posting on the AT Section Hikers FB page from a guy that said he was "just kicked out of Shenandoah. They have rangers at all of the trail heads."

[Mrs Baggins]

Just saw a posting on the AT Section Hikers FB page from a guy that said he was "just kicked out of Shenandoah. They have rangers at all of the trail heads."

Should have said AT Hikers page, not the Section Hikers page.

[Venchka]

Friends of a friend arrived in GTNP today and found this...

24246

Frankly, all of this lock down of every access point is a bit over the top if you ask me. Nobody did ask me, but if they did...

Wayne

[redseal]

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/who-we-are/news/2013/10/01/government-shutdown-limits-access-and-use-of-appalachian-trail-by-hikers-and-volunteers

They do not specify what parts are open or closed. A map of the AT colored blue (closed) and red (open) would be useful.

Yeah, I saw the article. I am just trying to figure out what is actually closed. I was planning on doing a 1 to 2 week hike starting Saturday so just trying to figure out where all that extra NPS land is that I was not aware of.

[Namtrag]

The Monongahela Forest is shut down, and I hear tell the rangers are closing the forest road gates, and anyone caught beyond them will be ticketed. This sucks because we were going to Dolly Sods this weekend. Anyone have a plan B for us to consider. This was an 11 member meetup group outing. :(

[colorado_rob]

Just saw a posting on the AT Section Hikers FB page from a guy that said he was "just kicked out of Shenandoah. They have rangers at all of the trail heads." Very confusing and I say BS. I just walked out of the north end of SNP on the AT literally 2 hours ago, and chatted with a ranger at the Elk Wallow wayside yesterday. He laughed when I asked it the AT would be "closed". There is NO "closing" of the AT in SNP. Of course, lots of nice convenient facilities, like the waysides and bathrooms (with plumbing!) are closed. The TRAIL is NOT closed. There is no way to close the trail, of course. Just hike. There are no rangers along the trails "kicking people out".

Kickin' back and replacing calories in Front Royal right now... tons of SOBO's on the trail in SNP right now. I seemed to be a lone NOBO.

[Namtrag]

It is very confusing...look at this blog with pics saying NPS facilities are closed, implying the trails too...

http://dc.streetsblog.org/2013/10/01/gridlock-everywhere-congressional-impasse-shuts-down-dcs-trails/

[redseal]

I saw this recently mentioning the rangers will not be chasing anyone in SNP. Wish there was someone to call!

http://www.wtop.com/892/3468610/Answer-Desk-Is-Skyline-Drive-open

[da fungo]

One thing to consider:

Even IF most places won't/can't enforce closure of the AT or another facility, if you proceed, you run the risk of encountering a Law Enforcement Ranger who: a. Takes his/her job very seriously, or b. Has a bad attitude (take your pick). In either case, you'll get a ticket and a fine.

[illabelle]

Looking for authoritative information about access to national forests during the shutdown, I looked at ...

Green Mountain National Forest website:

Due to the lapse in federal government funding, the U.S. Forest Service, as with other federal agencies, is closed with the exception of certain essential services. However, we will attempt to make timely updates about public health and safety on these web pages as appropriate. We sincerely regret this inconvenience. For general information on Forest Service shutdown procedures, please visit USDA’s website (http://usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?contentidonly=true&contentid=shutdown_procedures.html).

Which took me to this useless statement:

USDA's website:

Due to the lapse in federal government funding, this website is not available. After funding has been restored, please allow some time for this website to become available again.

So the US Forest Service is closed. What's that, an office? :confused: No clarity about whether the forest itself is closed. The ATC announcement linked earlier in this thread said the AT is "closed across the approximately 700 miles managed by the National Park Service". Logically then, until informed otherwise from an authoritative governmental source, I conclude that the AT is NOT closed through the GMNF.

Feeling hopeful about our upcoming hike.:)

[Mrs Baggins]

Why would he lie? No reason.

[max patch]

The 2 ATC maintaining clubs in VT are the Dartmouth Outing Club and the Green Mountain Club. I'd contact them if I had any questions about hiking in Vermont rather than the bureaucrats. I would expect that the ATC could also answer your questions.

[mtnkngxt]

I called Grayson Highlands today and the ranger there said the AT South into Mount Rogers was open as far as Damascus per his instructions, and there was no closings on the trail north until SNP.

[Mrs Baggins]

Very confusing and I say BS. I just walked out of the north end of SNP on the AT literally 2 hours ago, and chatted with a ranger at the Elk Wallow wayside yesterday. He laughed when I asked it the AT would be "closed". There is NO "closing" of the AT in SNP. Of course, lots of nice convenient facilities, like the waysides and bathrooms (with plumbing!) are closed. The TRAIL is NOT closed. There is no way to close the trail, of course. Just hike. There are no rangers along the trails "kicking people out".

Kickin' back and replacing calories in Front Royal right now... tons of SOBO's on the trail in SNP right now. I seemed to be a lone NOBO.

Uumm...yeah. Actually the AT IS closed within the boundaries of ALL national parks that it goes thru. Sorry if you can't accept that as fact. The guy that posted that he was kicked out of SNP would have no reason to make that up and the park service has stated that they have rangers/law enforcement patrolling the trails and enforcing the shutdown. Every single NP has issued statements that ALL trails, including the AT, ARE closed. So you hit a point where the rangers were lazy and not caring about the shutdown. You are an exception, NOT the rule.

[KKBaloney]

Based on published statements from various Forest Service officials around the country, it seems Forest Service lands are open for hiking....

I found this on Ravalli Republic (Montana):


"As long as a ranger or contracting officer isn’t needed nearby, the public can continue to play and work in national forests during the federal government shutdown.
"“As long as they don’t need a contracting officer to do the work they’re doing, they can continue operating,” Forest Service Region 1 spokesman Brandan Schulze said on Tuesday morning. “People using undeveloped campgrounds that don’t have a ranger present can still stay there. The trails will still be open. I don’t imagine people are going to get rapped behind gates.”"
http://www.ravallirepublic.com/news/local/article_f36f01d2-2abe-11e3-845b-0019bb2963f4.html?comment_form=true

And this from Summit Daily (Colorado):

“We aren’t really allowed to say much at this point,” said Bill Kight, the public affairs officer with the White River National Forest. He was in the office wrapping up loose ends for a few hours on Tuesday morning before leaving the headquarters, he said.
“People are still going to hike on trails and recreate on the land, but facilities will be closed,” Kight said.

http://www.summitdaily.com/news/8363923-113/forest-service-shutdown-closed (http://www.summitdaily.com/news/8363923-113/forest-service-shutdown-closed)

And this from Ohio:

Trails for all-terrain vehicles, motorcycles and horseback riders are closed, as are campgrounds at Lake Vesuvius Recreation Area near Ironton and Leith Run Recreation Area near Marietta, said spokesman Gary Chauncey.

Parts of Wayne National Forest remain open to hunting and all hiking trails remain open, Chauncey said.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2013/10/01/local-shut-down.html

[colorado_rob]

Uumm...yeah. Actually the AT IS closed within the boundaries of ALL national parks that it goes thru. Sorry if you can't accept that as fact. The guy that posted that he was kicked out of SNP would have no reason to make that up and the park service has stated that they have rangers/law enforcement patrolling the trails and enforcing the shutdown. Every single NP has issued statements that ALL trails, including the AT, ARE closed. So you hit a point where the rangers were lazy and not caring about the shutdown. You are an exception, NOT the rule. Well, about 50 other SOBO's are also the "exception". Not sure why you are even making any "argument" here based on what you saw on Facebook. I am here (SNP), you are not. I talked directly to a ranger in SNP, and he assured me the AT itself would not be affected. Did you talk to a ranger directly? I think not. I slept in a shelter at the north end of SNP with 10 (crowded!) other SOBO's last night who were bummed only because the waysides were closed, but they certainly were not in the least concerned about any perceived or actual "closures" of the AT. There is nothing at either end of any NP I've passed through along the AT that would in any way tell a hiker that the next section of the trail is in any way closed. There are only self-registration permit stations. Never ever saw a ranger on the trail in either SNP or GSMNP. I call a very large BS to any current policing of the AT within these NP's. Basically, any NP rangers would be doing so on their own time. Why would they??? Makes zero sense. In any case, I know FIRST HAND that the AT within the SNP is alive and well (technically "closed" or not) and actually quite busy with perhaps the main wave of SOBO's. A fine groups of folks, by the way.

Get in touch with reality. FACEBOOK is not in this realm. Hike on.

[Astro]

Well, about 50 other SOBO's are also the "exception". Not sure why you are even making any "argument" here based on what you saw on Facebook. I am here (SNP), you are not. I talked directly to a ranger in SNP, and he assured me the AT itself would not be affected. Did you talk to a ranger directly? I think not. I slept in a shelter at the north end of SNP with 10 (crowded!) other SOBO's last night who were bummed only because the waysides were closed, but they certainly were not in the least concerned about any perceived or actual "closures" of the AT. There is nothing at either end of any NP I've passed through along the AT that would in any way tell a hiker that the next section of the trail is in any way closed. There are only self-registration permit stations. Never ever saw a ranger on the trail in either SNP or GSMNP. I call a very large BS to any current policing of the AT within these NP's. Basically, any NP rangers would be doing so on their own time. Why would they??? Makes zero sense. In any case, I know FIRST HAND that the AT within the SNP is alive and well (technically "closed" or not) and actually quite busy with perhaps the main wave of SOBO's. A fine groups of folks, by the way.

Get in touch with reality. FACEBOOK is not in this realm. Hike on.

Looks like this is a case where WB trumps facebook for credibility, for whatever that is worth.

Colorado_Rob, Thanks for the eyewitness report, and enjoy your hike! :sun

[chasby]

Just walked 26 miles out of the south-end of SNP today. I saw no rangers on the trail today, at all. The only sign of the shutdown was the blockade on Skyline Drive (see attached photo).
However, my other SoBo friends were told to leave the park today. But they stayed at a pay campsite the night before and were told the park was closed promptly in the morning. Sooooo, stay stealthy and hike on! The rangers don't seem like they're out to get us.

[illabelle]

Folks, another reminder. Please don't get political with the thread, or they'll shut it down. That doesn't help anyone. We all understand the frustration and we all would like to vent as well, but please don't.
Thank you.

[Marta]

I'm currently living on private property inside Glacier National Park.

When I drove back to Apgar Village after working at the Inn outside the Park all day, I arrived to find the road barricaded. The LEO finally let me through when I convinced her that I live here in a house on private property. (There are a number of private dwellings inside the Park.) She cautioned me that I must remain in my private residence and not "recreate" in the Park. (So...all customers are being kept away from our privately-owned store.) And I will not be walking to the lake front tonight.

People who were in front-country campgrounds were given 48 hours to leave.

At the Inn, which is just outside the Park, we had a number of customers today who were quickly reconfiguring their vacations. Most of them are heading for Canada.

[upstream]

Here is a letter from the ATC Director of conservation that may clear up some things:


From: Bob Proudman [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 2:50 PM
To:
Cc:
Subject: Message to A.T. Volunteers



Dear A.T. Volunteers:

As you all know now, at midnight September 30, the U.S. government shut down. All National Park Service units including the Appalachian National Scenic Trail are closed. All of our ATC Trail crews and seasonal staff are now exiting the woods and will stop working on federal lands for the duration of the shutdown.

A.T. maintainers and Trail club volunteers should cease work on the A.T. and its side trails immediately. The NPS Volunteers in the Parks program (on NPS and some state lands) is suspended. The Volunteers in the Forests program is also suspended. In the event of an accident, lack of those protections would expose A.T. workers, their clubs, and ATC to tort claims and medical costs. Therefore, all A.T. maintenance must cease for the duration of the shutdown.

National park lands are closed to public use. Except for two NPS-APPA NPS law-enforcement officers (Chief Ranger Todd Remaley and Park Ranger Travis Baker), all APPA park personnel have been furloughed, as have most of the staff in the six national park units crossed by the Trail. Incident reporting remains as in the past (see http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hiking/report-an-incident). We urge your compliance in honoring the closures on our national parks and avoiding use of national park lands during the federal government shutdown.

We have learned from the USDA Forest Service that—unless an area can be gated—it will remain open. This is also the case on state lands crossed by the A.T.

The ATC Mid-Atlantic Regional Office in Boiling Springs, Pennsylvania, is owned by the NPS, and the agency has determined that it must be closed for the duration of the shutdown.

For A.T. volunteers in the states of Maine, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, northern Virginia and the Catawba Valley in Southwest Virginia (NPS-APPA administered lands excepting state lands) the attached signs can be laminated and posted at bulletin boards at Trail heads warning the visiting public about the closure. For this task only, volunteers are covered by VIP until noon tomorrow, October 2, 2013. I have also enclosed a fact sheet from the Department of Interior.

If you have any other questions, please call your ATC regional office http://www.appalachiantrail.org/who-we-are/locations or me here at ATC-HQ. We pulled your names from two lists, so there may be duplicates of this email, with apology.

Thank you for your outstanding service to the Appalachian Trail, ATC and our federal, state and local agency partners.

Bob

Robert Proudman

Director of Conservation Operations

Appalachian Trail Conservancy

799 Washington Street | PO Box 807

Harpers Ferry, WV 25425-0807

.

And, here is the sign:
24257

[Many Moons]

crazy! Hope they come to an agreement in DC! Weird how your prospective changes when your effected by some government shut down like this. I am bummed, but I think of the others like motels,planes,rental cars,local restaurants,shuttle dudes,hiker supplies,web site that sell camp stuff, and on and on! We all lose when the great ones in doc that we sent can't figure out that what they do matters! Any way bummed in Wake Forest NC that my sons and my 18th hike through the north GSMNP my be on hold! Hope the get their act together by then. For all our souls! any good 3night 4day hikes close to this? I stopped last year at Clingsman Dome on my way to K. So the north end of the GSMNP fit my plan, but whatever! It is what it is and life goes on. Any ideas for a good hike? Can we get from Standing Bear to Hot Springs in 4hike days? My 16year old son has never hiked before, so trying not to overdo it.
.

[Alligator]

If you go to the Department of the Interior page this message is at the top
Due to the lapse in appropriated funds, all public lands managed by the Interior Department (National Parks, National Wildlife Refuges, Bureau of Land Management facilities, etc.) will be closed. For more information, FAQs, and updates, please visit www.doi.gov/shutdown (http://www.doi.gov/shutdown)..
Following the above link leads to the NPS contingency page.

DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
CONTINGENCY PLAN ONE PAGER SUMMARY
As stated in its original authorizing legislation, the National Park Service mission is to “preserve
unimpaired the natural and cultural resources and values of the national park system for the
enjoyment, education, and inspiration of this and future generations.”
The National Park Service manages over 84 million acres in all 50 States and Territories in 401 park
units that preserve, protect, and share the history of this land and its people. Nearly 287 million
people visited the national parks in 2012 and NPS works to provide visitor services in partnership
with over 250,000 volunteers.
Services and programs that will remain operational.
• Law enforcement including the U.S. Park Police and emergency and disaster assistance.
• Firefighting and monitoring.
• Border and coastal protection and surveillance.
• Limited management of ongoing projects that are funded from non-lapsing appropriations.
• Access to through roads.
Services and programs that will be ceased.
• All national parks will be closed and secured.
• Visitor centers and other facilities will be closed.
• Education programs and special events will be canceled.
• Permits for special events will be rescinded.
• Guests staying in hotels and campgrounds will be notified of the closure and given 48 hours to make
alternate arrangements and leave the park.

News Release 10/1/2013 is attached.24258

[Many Moons]

Just got emails from GSMNP that my reservations have been canceled. Waste of time staying up to 2am to get the reservation several days back. Hope they will honor my reservations if the great ones in DC get it together in next few days. HIKE ON!!!!!

MIller

[Marta]

Just got emails from GSMNP that my reservations have been canceled. Waste of time staying up to 2am to get the reservation several days back. Hope they will honor my reservations if the great ones in DC get it together in next few days. HIKE ON!!!!!

MIller

I'm so sorry.

I've been planning to take a brief vacation in the Black Hills. I've been able to get camping reservations in Custer State Park.

Maybe you could do some hiking in the Nantahala NF, or cross the border into upstate SC and do a bit of the Foothills Trail.

[tucker0104]

I read online how Smoky national park is closed. Roads, trails, and everything else. What does that really mean? Does that mean I can't hike out there? Thanks for the help.

[Bucherm]

Means exactly that, it's closed.

You could theoretically park on the edge of the park at a trailhead and hike in, but the Park is closed for business, which means you're less likely to encounter NPS personnel and you may(may, being the operative word here) have to expect SAR personnel to take a little longer in reaching you if you need it. Your guess is as good as mine if there's some kind of penalty if you do that though.

FS and BLM lands are still "open" although developed campsites are closed. Maybe go hiking in one of the many National Forests NC has?

[tucker0104]

I was thinking about doing the Art Loeb trail instead.

[tucker0104]

Do southbounders have to go around since the park is closed?

[Bucherm]

It's closed so they aren't legally permitted on it, so...yes?

Like I said, I don't think anything is stopping someone from just walking in, but there might be a penalty if you get caught.

[Bucherm]

I'm currently living on private property inside Glacier National Park.



In high school I lived on the Presidio of San Francisco, so I'm idly wonderering what's going on there(the website is, of course, shut down) for residents and tenents.

[peakbagger]

I believe the ATC policy is that if a section of trail is officially closed for any reason, that it is not required to complete an official thru hike. This happens on occasion along the AT when an area is closed due to fire danger or storm damage. After Hurricane Irene, the Green Mountain National Forest and the White Mountain National Forest in VT and NH was officially closed for several weeks and thru hikers did not need to do these sections (some did out of general principle). I expect the same rule would apply for a federal government shutdown.

[bear bag hanger]

From what I've read elsewhere (sorry, I didn't save the links) there won't be any trail maintenance going on, but hikers are free to hike through the parks. Some may be closed off, but most will not have anyone preventing you from hiking through. As far as I can tell, this only applies to the AT, FTA and most other long distance trails. Shorter day hikes, which are enclosed in one park may be closed. Just don't expect rescue or any help from anyone if, in the hopefully unlikely event, you need it.

[Tennessee Viking]

Do southbounders have to go around since the park is closed?

I believe Standing Bear might start getting a little cramped.

[doritotex]

If you go missing they won't come looking for you. They are asking for volunteer experienced hikers to continue the search for this missing Idaho woman.

Shutdown hits search for missing Boise hiker at Craters of the Moon.
http://www.idahostatesman.com/2013/10/02/2793319/shutdown-hits-craters-search.html

Read more here: http://www.idahostatesman.com/2013/10/02/2793319/shutdown-hits-craters-search.html#storylink=cpy

[marshbirder]

They do actually have personnel posted at the parks to prevent poaching. Sweet alliteration. They are considered essential.

[Mags]

I can't speak for the Smokies or Shenandoah, but I know Rocky Mtn NP gave visitors 48hrs to leave their front country and backcountry campsites. No new permits were given.
(Same way Marta described Glacier)

I was on a trip this weekend to RMNP. The backcountry just opened up after it was closed due to flooding and we ended the trip the day before it closed due to govt shutdown. Wow..talk about timing! :)

[BobTheBuilder]

The Shenandoah webcam is still up and running! They must not have noticed it...

http://www.nps.gov/webcams-shen/pinnacles.jpg

[Nutbrown]

Politico says hikers will 'not be shooed off the AT.' http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/government-shutdown-changes-97618.html

[Mags]

From the PCTA, but may be applicable to he AT as well:
http://www.pcta.org/2013/how-the-federal-government-shutdown-impacts-the-pct-14684/

[Downhill Trucker]

Anyone know if the road through rockfish gap in Va is still open?

[mikec]

I did a road trip out to the Shenandoah Valley, VA today. While on US29 going through the Central/North part of the park I passed a 'Trail Closed' sign appended to the concrete post at the Pass Mountain Trail. When I got to the top of the mountain the entrance station was deserted and the road was gated. When I got to the bottom of the mountain I passed the SNP headquarters. There was a park employee out front with a sign that said "We want to work!". I went into Luray, vA, then traveled up US340 to Front Royal. When I got to the north entrance to Skyline Drive again the entrance station was abandoned and the road was gated. I have uploaded a picture of this. Also, as I was approaching the entrance station a yearling bear leisurely was crossing the road. I could not get my cell phone out in time. There were cars parked along the entrance drive outside the north entrance as well as along US29 near the central entrance so people were accessing the park.

[illabelle]

The 2 ATC maintaining clubs in VT are the Dartmouth Outing Club and the Green Mountain Club. I'd contact them if I had any questions about hiking in Vermont rather than the bureaucrats. I would expect that the ATC could also answer your questions.

Good suggestion, MP. I did, and here's their reply:


The entire AT and LT remain open for hikers in Vermont. No GMNF visitor centers will be open and there will be no forest service employees working, but hikers can continue to use the trail.

[Namtrag]

This sucks because no official word has come out from most of the national forests...we have a 6 hour drive to Dolly Sods, and still don't have any idea whether the fire road gates will be open. It's quite a walk from the gates to the trail head we want to use. I think no one has told the person in charge at each National Forest the official spiel. I do know that I am reading that GWNF has closed signs at major trail heads, and at the same time have found a press release from Plumas NF that "Visitors may continue to enjoy traveling on forest system roads and trails, cut firewood with a permit, hunt and camp, among other activities. All campgrounds without gates are open although services are curtailed."

Does anyone have a clue whether that is the stance of all national forests?

[Alleghanian Orogeny]

I did a road trip out to the Shenandoah Valley, VA today. While on US29 going through the Central/North part of the park I passed a 'Trail Closed' sign appended to the concrete post at the Pass Mountain Trail. When I got to the top of the mountain the entrance station was deserted and the road was gated. When I got to the bottom of the mountain I passed the SNP headquarters. There was a park employee out front with a sign that said "We want to work!". I went into Luray, vA, then traveled up US340 to Front Royal. When I got to the north entrance to Skyline Drive again the entrance station was abandoned and the road was gated. I have uploaded a picture of this. Also, as I was approaching the entrance station a yearling bear leisurely was crossing the road. I could not get my cell phone out in time. There were cars parked along the entrance drive outside the north entrance as well as along US29 near the central entrance so people were accessing the park.

Thanks for the report. I imagine you're referring to US 211 or US 33 in terms of a highway crossing through the north-central part of SNP, because US 29 runs parallel to the Blue Ridge along the east (Piedmont) side, and never crosses the mountains. It does not cross SNP at any point, either.

FWIW, I've seen listings like those which are cited at #117 concerning National Forests here in NC. "Visitors may use undeveloped NF recreation areas, but developed facilities will be closed during the Federal shut-down".

AO

[Namtrag]

Thanks for the report. I imagine you're referring to US 211 or US 33 in terms of a highway crossing through the north-central part of SNP, because US 29 runs parallel to the Blue Ridge along the east (Piedmont) side, and never crosses the mountains. It does not cross SNP at any point, either.

FWIW, I've seen listings like those which are cited at #117 concerning National Forests here in NC. "Visitors may use undeveloped NF recreation areas, but developed facilities will be closed during the Federal shut-down".

AO

The Hiking Upward Facebook page just posted this, which directly contradicts what you posted:

So are you planning on hiking this weekend? Here are the basics of the closures: All federal Park or Forestry Lands including the Shenandoah National Park, George Washington National Forest, Jefferson National Forest, and Monongahela National Forest are closed. State Parks and Municipal Lands are not included in this restriction.

I asked them for citation, because of the evidence others have posted that National Forests are still open.

[Duramax22]

"This is the time of year when many southbound thru-hikers along the Appalachian Trail pass through the Smokies. During the government shutdown, those thru-hikers can complete the 70 miles of the A.T. through the park at their own pace, but they have to remain on the trail and not leave to resupply in Gatlinburg as many typically do."

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2013/oct/01/impasse-continues/
This is via knox news. I also herd a story yesterday an elderly man was at alum cave trail and was approached by a ranger that stated the park was closed. The man then told the ranger "i hike this trail every tuesday morning,i pay for this park, im hiking up to the bluff today, if you wanna stop me, shoot me. Story goes the ranger said "well im not going to do that sir" and left.

[mikec]

Thanks for the report. I imagine you're referring to US 211 or US 33 in terms of a highway crossing through the north-central part of SNP, because US 29 runs parallel to the Blue Ridge along the east (Piedmont) side, and never crosses the mountains. It does not cross SNP at any point, either.



My mistake. Yes, it was US211.

[ChinMusic]

"This is the time of year when many southbound thru-hikers along the Appalachian Trail pass through the Smokies. During the government shutdown, those thru-hikers can complete the 70 miles of the A.T. through the park at their own pace, but they have to remain on the trail and not leave to resupply in Gatlinburg as many typically do."


Not resupply in GBurg??? The highway is open. What does GBurg have to do with the price of beans?

[Venchka]

This is getting really serious.........

http://www.today.com/news/government-shutdown-threatens-weddings-set-national-sites-8C11318722

Wayne

[da fungo]

About half an hour ago, I heard an NPR interview of the head of the NPS. He sounded sympathetic about the problems users of the parks are facing, but didn't seem to offer any wriggle room: The parks are closed.

Since it appears that implementation of the closure is likely to vary by region and specific location, I'd plan to hike as normal, but prepare to be disappointed. If I couldn't afford to take a chance, then Id have to stay home.

Note to moderators: I am not advocating defiance of the law: I am suggesting that hikers take advantage, where possible, of local variations in the way the shutdown is implemented.

[da fungo]

Something else to consider:

You can take your chances, hike where you want, and probably have no problems. But, IF you do get caught: It's a federal offense. The local Justice of the Peace has no jurisdiction. If you have to appear in court to answer charges - you have to appear in a U. S. Magistrates Court - which may not be real close or convenient. In NJ for instance, the Magistrates Court with jurisdiction over the area of the AT is located in downtown Newark.

Just sayin'.

[Mrs Baggins]

I've been amazed at how, when I state that I'm not going to violate the law and will abide by the shutdown, I'm immediately attacked for it and told that I should just go out there and get on the trails and enter the parks anyway. My husband is in a position with his job that, should I violate a law and get caught, he could lose his job. You can call that cowardice, or bluster and swagger and say do it anyway, but we are rather addicted to being able to make our mortgage payment and eat. Perhaps the attackers are in positions (or no positions at all) where they don't need to have a regular paycheck coming in. In any case, I will abide by the rules and find other places to hike. And if you then attack me for opting to pay the bills please understand.....I will have no choice but to assume you're just one of the "takers" and have nothing to risk. I HATE this shutdown situation and my husband may be out of work next week (and he doesn't even work for the government) but still, I will NOT risk everything to prove a point.

[Marta]

There's a fair amount of individual difference in the zeal with which various rangers here in Glacier NP are enforcing the shutdown. The gates are barricaded. Every time I go I to the Park--to get to the house I'm living in, on private property--I have to stop and explain. Some rangers give me the third degree and caution me I'm basically on house arrest, and mustn't step off my property. Another one, when my co-workers who live next door said they'd probably walk down to the lake, said he didn't give a $&@#.

One bit of bizarreness is that they've tipped over all the lakeside benches and picnic tables. So if you somehow get into the Park you'll have to sit on the grass?

[double d]

The amount of money the Fed's are losing by closing the NPS is truly unacceptable (it cost $20 bucks to visit many National Parks for a week). Also, think of the lost revenue to local communities who need tourist to make a living and the lost wages by Federal workers. As others have said, what a waste when 535 members of Congress are so dysfunctional they shut down the government as it relates to our NPS.

[double d]

Completely agree with you Mrs Baggins, your husband's job comes first and its not wise to show your strong by making some kind of "stand" when nothing positive will be gained by you and your family members.

[Rasty]

Not resupply in GBurg??? The highway is open. What does GBurg have to do with the price of beans?

The closure rules are designed for maximum punishment to the citizens. Not being political at all, as any rational person can see the feds spending more payroll per hour to enforce closures then they spend for regular operations. When 90 year old disabled veterans have to storm the gates of the barricaded WW2 memorial two days in a row it's proof of the feds having a collective temper tantrum.

[Hill Ape]

occupy has scheduled a protest at yosemite this friday. on the east side up Tioga Road. merely passing the information. personally, i'm not down with this. occupy was a complete failure to have a clear agenda or message. i had high hopes for them, but was disappointed. they do not represent me or my interests, and I hate to see them co-opt the national parks to their "cause" whatever that may be, all I ever heard from them was wealth redistribution and class warfare. but, protests are in order, and if they are willing to, I guess more power to them. WWII vets have set the bar. this is the peoples land were are talking about.

[da fungo]

There's a fair amount of individual difference in the zeal with which various rangers here in Glacier NP are enforcing the shutdown. The gates are barricaded. Every time I go I to the Park--to get to the house I'm living in, on private property--I have to stop and explain. Some rangers give me the third degree and caution me I'm basically on house arrest, and mustn't step off my property. Another one, when my co-workers who live next door said they'd probably walk down to the lake, said he didn't give a $&@#.One bit of bizarreness is that they've tipped over all the lakeside benches and picnic tables. So if you somehow get into the Park you'll have to sit on the grass?
It might be easier to understand some bizarre behavior if you recall that the people still working have been told that they have to work but they'll only get paid someday in the sweet bye and bye. And, since they're mission essential, if they refuse to come to work, they'll be fired. Plus, whenever they do encounter the public, they get ****e for a situation that victimizes them, too. Pretty difficult to stay all cheery and Ranger Rick with that going on.

[HikerMom58]

Did y'all see the story on the CBS evening news the other night where a WWII vet arrived in Washington to view the memorial, he had never seen before, in a wheel chair? He arrived just in time for the closure. :mad: The story had a happy ending though. A congressman removed the barrier so all the the vets could visit the memorial. When the interviewer asked the vet what he thought of the closure he fought to compose himself... it was heart wrenching.

This is very hard on everyone. I do feel bad for the rangers, as well, just like da fungo mentioned.

[Lone Wolf]

occupy has scheduled a protest at yosemite this friday.

i'm sure they'll have a big impact :rolleyes:

[Furlough]

Did y'all see the story on the CBS evening news the other night where a WWII vet arrived in Washington to view the memorial, he had never seen before, in a wheel chair? He arrived just in time for the closure. :mad: The story had a happy ending though. A congressman removed the barrier so all the the vets could visit the memorial. When the interviewer asked the vet what he thought of the closure he fought to compose himself... it was heart wrenching.

This is very hard on everyone. I do feel bad for the rangers, as well, just like da fungo mentioned.

If you followed that story the rest of the way - the same Congressman than blasted a Ranger for doing her job. A furloughed federal employee came to her defense and told the Congressman the monument closure was not her fault it was his. Remember Congress is getting paid and not doing their job. The Ranger is not getting paid and doing hers.

[Rasty]

If you followed that story the rest of the way - the same Congressman than blasted a Ranger for doing her job. A furloughed federal employee came to her defense and told the Congressman the monument closure was not her fault it was his. Remember Congress is getting paid and not doing their job. The Ranger is not getting paid and doing hers.

That ranger is getting paid. No federal employee has lost a penny.

[WingedMonkey]

I missed it? Did a vet try to hike the AT and get turned away?

[Rasty]

I missed it? Did a vet try to hike the AT and get turned away?

The park service tried and failed to block the groups of disabled WW2 vets that get flown to DC on WW2 bombers to see the WW2 memorial.

[marshbirder]

This sucks because no official word has come out from most of the national forests...we have a 6 hour drive to Dolly Sods, and still don't have any idea whether the fire road gates will be open. It's quite a walk from the gates to the trail head we want to use. I think no one has told the person in charge at each National Forest the official spiel. I do know that I am reading that GWNF has closed signs at major trail heads, and at the same time have found a press release from Plumas NF that "Visitors may continue to enjoy traveling on forest system roads and trails, cut firewood with a permit, hunt and camp, among other activities. All campgrounds without gates are open although services are curtailed."

Does anyone have a clue whether that is the stance of all national forests?

We were discussing Dolly Sods on the WV birding listserv yesterday. I believe the Mon National Forest is open, but the campgrounds and visitor center are closed. Read the posts about banding at Dolly Sods and Mon NF:

http://birding.aba.org/maillist/WV

[Furlough]

That ranger is getting paid. No federal employee has lost a penny.

Being a federal employee who is currently furloughed you are wrong. As part of what was termed close out procedures on day one of the furlough we came into work and had to update our automated time card system with a code that equals no pay due. If you are a federal employee in an "excepted" status, you come to work, but as of now you are in a no pay due status. There is no guarantee that anyone civilian federal employee who is now furloughed will get back pay. This situation is different than last time 17 years ago when folks got their pay back retroactively. Back then the federal budget and the national economy were solvent enough that the dollars were available, not true this time around.

[Rasty]

Being a federal employee who is currently furloughed you are wrong. As part of what was termed close out procedures on day one of the furlough we came into work and had to update our automated time card system with a code that equals no pay due. If you are a federal employee in an "excepted" status, you come to work, but as of now you are in a no pay due status. There is no guarantee that anyone civilian federal employee who is now furloughed will get back pay. This situation is different than last time 17 years ago when folks got their pay back retroactively. Back then the federal budget and the national economy were solvent enough that the dollars were available, not true this time around.

I will bet you a $20 you get paid retro.

[WingedMonkey]

The park service tried and failed to block the groups of disabled WW2 vets that get flown to DC on WW2 bombers to see the WW2 memorial.

My bad. I thought it was about the AT.

[Furlough]

I will bet you a $20 you get paid retro. Everyone is banking on that, but there is no guarentee. But I can tell for sure that we got nothing back for the Furloughs from this past summer.

[Hill Ape]

i'm sure they'll have a big impact :rolleyes: i'm sure they will not LNT if they do "occupy"

[SevenPines]

I am driving home from a solo overnighter at Spy Rock, which is in GWNF i believe--

Didnt have any problems with rangers at the fish hatchery road, but did share the same negative sentiment about whats going on in Washington with the few day hikers taking advantage.

wake up! IMPROVISE and do not let this shutdown affect your outdoor experiences. there is always an open door somewhere

its OUR property

we're headed back out Friday morning again too-- we rented a PATC cabin adjoining Shenandoah on private land...that has trails directly into the park.
bet theyll have a ranger posted up:rolleyes: but i do feel very bad for all the people who rented cabins within the park

[Marta]

It might be easier to understand some bizarre behavior if you recall that the people still working have been told that they have to work but they'll only get paid someday in the sweet bye and bye. And, since they're mission essential, if they refuse to come to work, they'll be fired. Plus, whenever they do encounter the public, they get ****e for a situation that victimizes them, too. Pretty difficult to stay all cheery and Ranger Rick with that going on.

I totally sympathize.

Unlike federal employees (whom I hope will get paid retroactively), our business inside the Park has zero possibility of ever recovering one cent of the money we are losing every day of the shutdown.

closed Park = no customers for store = no point in opening store = employees don't get scheduled to work = employees are poorer

[da fungo]

Being a federal employee who is currently furloughed you are wrong. As part of what was termed close out procedures on day one of the furlough we came into work and had to update our automated time card system with a code that equals no pay due. If you are a federal employee in an "excepted" status, you come to work, but as of now you are in a no pay due status. There is no guarantee that anyone civilian federal employee who is now furloughed will get back pay. This situation is different than last time 17 years ago when folks got their pay back retroactively. Back then the federal budget and the national economy were solvent enough that the dollars were available, not true this time around.
actually, back in 1996, the last time this happened, furloughed federal employees weren't guaranteed back pay, either. It took a specific act of Congress, after that crisis was resolved, to authorize back pay then, just as it will take a specific act of Congress when the current situation resolves. Unfortunately, attitudes are even more set in concrete now than then, and this time there is the added controversy about the debt ceiling - neither factor lending to a speedy resolution of the problem, nor to a Congressional attitude of support for back pay.

[max patch]

i posted this in groups so apologies to the 3 people who have already read it. :)

I think Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield Park is handling the closure perfectly.

They have 18 employees; 14 were furloughed and 4 law enforcement officers still working. Obviously, the visitor center, museum, souvenier shop, theater, and main parking lot are all closed. However, the satellite parking lots remain open. These lots are gated so it would be easy to close them if they wanted to. The law enforcement officers are telling everyone that the park is closed, but are allowing anyone to enter the park and use the 20 miles of hiking trails after warning them that they are entering "at their own risk" and to be careful.

[da fungo]

Everyone keeps mentioning that "it's our park", which is true, but in a rather abstract manner.

At the same time, everyone seems to forget history. When the Bonus Army marched on Washington, DC in 1932, the National Mall was "their property", too. That didn't stop Herbert Hoover from ordering Douglas MacArthur to use Army troops to clear federal property.

[ChinMusic]

Everyone keeps mentioning that "it's our park", which is true, but in a rather abstract manner.

At the same time, everyone seems to forget history. When the Bonus Army marched on Washington, DC in 1932, the National Mall was "their property", too. That didn't stop Herbert Hoover from ordering Douglas MacArthur to use Army troops to clear federal property.
Well, that wouldn't make for a pretty picture, clearing out all those WWII vets.

[da fungo]

Well, that wouldn't make for a pretty picture, clearing out all those WWII vets.

It didn't make a pretty picture back then, either.

This governmental closure stuff isn't simple, and it isn't intuitive.

[ChinMusic]

It didn't make a pretty picture back then, either.

This governmental closure stuff isn't simple, and it isn't intuitive.

Visiting a mall and taking it over are two totally different things.

[Alligator]

Sorry guys, the mall issue isn't a hiking issue, please refrain from discussing it here. Thanks.

[ChinMusic]

I have found the anecdotal reports of rangers saying the "park is closed" and then look the other way, as the way to play this. I hope our SOBO brethren run into this more than some harda$$s. It still leaves roads being closed. I cannot recall how many areas that would affect resupply. I'm thinking the SNP would be a nightmare for resupply if the roads were closed.

[Namtrag]

I find it kind of nice that the rangers at the different areas have some control over how they handle the closures, but at the same time, I wish each place would post up on its website what exactly they are allowing.

[da fungo]

They can't post on their web sites: The National Park Service has shut down the entire domain until the government closure is over.

Here's what you see if you try to access them:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAA8MAAAFuCAIAAAA qCl14AAAgAElEQVR4nOzdP2jb6B/H8Wfw8AwZNHTQcMMJOlRwQwUdKuhSQYYYMsSQIYYMwWQIJkMIG YLJEkyGYDKU0KGYGw58w4FvOPANBXc5cIeCOhTUoeAOHTx08NB BQwb9hkd+LMt/YqtOk/T3fvGlpIktPZJl66PHjyQRJQgAAADgzpM5IXM/eqbJzBz2u2G/K0jSAAAAwLVI0gAAALjncnL4g/pZ/+YmkaQBAACALEjSAAAAuM/Gu59/SIe0IEkDAADgZ5A84/BHnX1IkgYAAMD9lBNSCiGElEL1QksZZ2iSNAAAAJCQU+cUxv+T UsgVaf9qWr+YUggphPPIsh9aMid+zPCOe5ikc0Lkxn4z+q+UP2 hwzAT6pV2RIz/8kAOj9IInZqrb85MY3wwAAPeZXJEjO/SxH9SObMJedeLuIJeosUdKKcfDw8TpxK3KDfaw42EjMRfDMGZN Z/zp44+c0aqxZUkvxZRZ3wO54bBmqS4LLaSKxUIIsSLFiiFyw18Y OWEbwvtVFB/LyppZ27Ibe159x62sGZU143LXqW3bxcdG/ldh5AxzxZBCSMMQD0yxYgxmKQf1ve5Zkh7GwdyUuJx8k9w8wzB S74f4h4lZ/4cYX/DkO234Tr5fSTT1OXiPWg4AmMfYflOl0hlxU67ICfv6wb5Y/ylOt2IsmCb2mCOTSqVSvQNNTDO9r9ePTPygd7gjDRhLKSOLMHG CkzoKpZTp1H5Pd47T2pyTUl/JbhB/TSlcUxQfm9VNp3mUb58W/LN8cJ7vXuSDs3z3PO+fuv6p232ZDy7ynWOvfZRvHDjVTbP83DK 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[WingedMonkey]

From my good friends at Delaware North Companies Parks & Resorts that run the concessions at Shenandoah (and many other National Parks)

http://www.goshenandoah.com/Government-Shutdown-Information.aspx


We are monitoring the government shutdown and are working closely with the National Park Service to ensure we have the most current information available related to the closures. We are contacting our lodging guests and providing a refund if a guest is not able to change his or her reservation. All NPS entrance gates are closed. All areas outside of the immediate lodging areas are also closed which includes hiking trails and backcountry areas.

[da fungo]

They can't post on their web sites: The National Park Service has shut down the entire domain until the government closure is over.

Here's what you see if you try to access them:

24283

[max patch]

i posted this in groups so apologies to the 3 people who have already read it. :)

I think Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield Park is handling the closure perfectly.

They have 18 employees; 14 were furloughed and 4 law enforcement officers still working. Obviously, the visitor center, museum, souvenier shop, theater, and main parking lot are all closed. However, the satellite parking lots remain open. These lots are gated so it would be easy to close them if they wanted to. The law enforcement officers are telling everyone that the park is closed, but are allowing anyone to enter the park and use the 20 miles of hiking trails after warning them that they are entering "at their own risk" and to be careful.

Well, the satellite parking lots were closed today after being open the last 2. Still no indication that the policy of letting hikers "hike at their own risk" as reported in the front page of the local newspaper has changed.

[Namtrag]

We were discussing Dolly Sods on the WV birding listserv yesterday. I believe the Mon National Forest is open, but the campgrounds and visitor center are closed. Read the posts about banding at Dolly Sods and Mon NF:

http://birding.aba.org/maillist/WV

Thanks, MB. By the time I saw this, our group had already decided to switch our trip and go to Grayson Highlands instead. Not a bad consolation I guess!

[Namtrag]

The USFS domains are still up and running

[Blissful]

I plan to go hike in the forests tomorrow. I also plan to have a small American flag hanging from my daypack to symbolize freedom. I hope you will go take a hike and proclaim freedom in the woods that many fought to protect and uphold.

[HooKooDooKu]

Everyone keeps mentioning that "it's our park"
While that may be true, the NPS is responsible for "protecting" our parks.

So the logic (remember, this is "government" logic here) goes like this: We are allowed access to our National Parks, but it is not unfettered access. We are only granted access under the supervision of the Park Rangers. The rangers make sure we don't do damage to the National Park. But with the government shutdown, the rangers are not allowed to work. Since there is no one to supervise our activities in the park, the only way the government can protect the parks is to close them to all access.

[da fungo]

The USFS domains are still up and running

Yeah:

USFS is part of the Department of Agriculture;

NPS is part of the Department of the Interior.

Different agencies, different approaches.

[Namtrag]

Yeah:

USFS is part of the Department of Agriculture;

NPS is part of the Department of the Interior.

Different agencies, different approaches.

I guess my point is, the could, if they wanted, give us information. In fact some of the individual forests have.

[googlywoogly]

i posted this in groups so apologies to the 3 people who have already read it. :)

I think Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield Park is handling the closure perfectly.

They have 18 employees; 14 were furloughed and 4 law enforcement officers still working. Obviously, the visitor center, museum, souvenier shop, theater, and main parking lot are all closed. However, the satellite parking lots remain open. These lots are gated so it would be easy to close them if they wanted to. The law enforcement officers are telling everyone that the park is closed, but are allowing anyone to enter the park and use the 20 miles of hiking trails after warning them that they are entering "at their own risk" and to be careful.

Actually they have now closed all gates to all parking areas that belong to the park. I walked the entire 16 mile loop this morning, but parked my car in a Kroger Parking Lot and road hiked to get on the trail. The local paper has reported that the park is still available to walkers and runners, but all the parking areas are now closed down.

That was my main reason for doing the entire loop...to investigate the satellite parking areas availability. They were all closed up tight. I saw them with my own eyes.

[SevenPines]

you guys better not be hiking this weekend! the moderators on WB will be at each trailhead to turn you away, "dont make me call that satellite phone guy"

[FarmerChef]

Thanks, MB. By the time I saw this, our group had already decided to switch our trip and go to Grayson Highlands instead. Not a bad consolation I guess!

Not bad at all.

[Alligator]

While that may be true, the NPS is responsible for "protecting" our parks.

So the logic (remember, this is "government" logic here) goes like this: We are allowed access to our National Parks, but it is not unfettered access. We are only granted access under the supervision of the Park Rangers. The rangers make sure we don't do damage to the National Park. But with the government shutdown, the rangers are not allowed to work. Since there is no one to supervise our activities in the park, the only way the government can protect the parks is to close them to all access.Let's not get into the politics of it folks. The Departments and Agencies have shutdown procedures already codified prior to shutdown, and still have nonexempt personelle in charge operating under rules and laws pertaining to shutdowns. Use of federal property is established by law, passed by Congress, handed off to the executeive branch, and watched over by the courts. This thread is just to pass on information on what's open for hiking. OK please? Go do whatever you want about it, but keep the discussion here about hiking places on federal land and keep the suggestions legal. TYVM.

[Don H]

Talked with several SOBOs at Paul Wolf Shelter just south of SNP. They said the park rangers gave them until noon on 10/1 to get out of the park or they would be charged with trespassing. The rangers would not give them a ride so they went out on Skyline Drive and hitched out missing the last 20 miles of the AT.

[Many Moons]

Back to the GSMNP topic. I wonder if the Government refunds the budget does my reservations for the shelters on the 18th-21th still stand????? My emails 1 for each night and shelter said I could rebook or get a refund. I don't want either I want for old reservations to stand!! Just wonder if any of you know for sure if the reservations will be good that are on the schedule page will still be good. Furture reservations that were made and ones after the refunding. Just hope I don't have to compete again for the same nights. I booked at 2am when shelters opened and all 12 slots were taken by the time I paid for my two spaces. HIKE ON!!!!!

Miller

[jeffmeh]

The USFS has been directed to close even those parks that are privately managed under contract, and use absolutely no public money. Draw your own conclusions as to the motivation for this.


Its Official: US Forest Service Closing over 1000 Privately-Funded Parks (http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2013/10/its-official-us-forest-service-closing-over-1000-privately-funded-parks.html)


October 2, 2013, 5:36 pm
The US Forest Service, under pressure apparently from the White House, has reversed both its historical precedent as well as its position yesterday and will close over 1000 public parks and campgrounds that are operated by private companies without using one dime of public money. Why does the fact that our landlord the US Forest Service is going on an unpaid vacation mean that tenants of theirs have to close up shop too? We have no idea.
This is how I explained it in my letter to my senators: (http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2013/10/my-plea-to-stop-the-white-house-from-closing-privately-funded-privately-operated-parks.html)
My company, based in North Phoenix, operates over 100 US Forest Service campgrounds and day use areas under concession contract. Yesterday, as in all past government shutdowns, the Department of Agriculture and US Forest Service confirmed we would stay open during the government shutdown. This makes total sense, since our operations are self-sufficient (we are fully funded by user fees at the gate), we get no federal funds, we employ no government workers on these sites, and we actually pay rent into the Treasury.
However, today, we have been told by senior member of the US Forest Service and Department of Agriculture that people “above the department”, which I presume means the White House, plan to order the Forest Service to needlessly and illegally close all private operations. I can only assume their intention is to artificially increase the cost of the shutdown as some sort of political ploy.
The point of the shutdown is to close non-essential operations that require Federal money and manpower to stay open. So why is the White House closing private operations that require no government money to keep open and actually pay a percentage of their gate revenues back to the Treasury? We are a tenant of the US Forest Service, and a tenant does not have to close his business just because his landlord goes on a vacation.

[Many Moons]

Punishment. They are to powerful in DC.

[Many Moons]

How crowded do you think the trail will be on the 18th of this month from Standing Bear to Hot Springs if the GSMNP does not reopen?

[Namtrag]

Tell the landlord no, and stay open. It's worth trying since you have so much at stake. It may be even worth hiring an attorney.


The USFS has been directed to close even those parks that are privately managed under contract, and use absolutely no public money. Draw your own conclusions as to the motivation for this.


Its Official: US Forest Service Closing over 1000 Privately-Funded Parks (http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2013/10/its-official-us-forest-service-closing-over-1000-privately-funded-parks.html)


October 2, 2013, 5:36 pm
The US Forest Service, under pressure apparently from the White House, has reversed both its historical precedent as well as its position yesterday and will close over 1000 public parks and campgrounds that are operated by private companies without using one dime of public money. Why does the fact that our landlord the US Forest Service is going on an unpaid vacation mean that tenants of theirs have to close up shop too? We have no idea.
This is how I explained it in my letter to my senators: (http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2013/10/my-plea-to-stop-the-white-house-from-closing-privately-funded-privately-operated-parks.html)
My company, based in North Phoenix, operates over 100 US Forest Service campgrounds and day use areas under concession contract. Yesterday, as in all past government shutdowns, the Department of Agriculture and US Forest Service confirmed we would stay open during the government shutdown. This makes total sense, since our operations are self-sufficient (we are fully funded by user fees at the gate), we get no federal funds, we employ no government workers on these sites, and we actually pay rent into the Treasury.
However, today, we have been told by senior member of the US Forest Service and Department of Agriculture that people “above the department”, which I presume means the White House, plan to order the Forest Service to needlessly and illegally close all private operations. I can only assume their intention is to artificially increase the cost of the shutdown as some sort of political ploy.
The point of the shutdown is to close non-essential operations that require Federal money and manpower to stay open. So why is the White House closing private operations that require no government money to keep open and actually pay a percentage of their gate revenues back to the Treasury? We are a tenant of the US Forest Service, and a tenant does not have to close his business just because his landlord goes on a vacation.

[Mrs Baggins]

Talked with several SOBOs at Paul Wolf Shelter just south of SNP. They said the park rangers gave them until noon on 10/1 to get out of the park or they would be charged with trespassing. The rangers would not give them a ride so they went out on Skyline Drive and hitched out missing the last 20 miles of the AT.

Thank you for passing that on since I was so snarkily told that that simply never happened in the park and that it was all happy land with the rangers.

[colorado_rob]

Thank you for passing that on since I was so snarkily told that that simply never happened in the park and that it was all happy land with the rangers. Sorry I was "snarky" before, Ms. B, if you're referring to my response yesterday. Still, this latest report is in direct conflict with two SOBO's I recently corresponded with who have had no ranger sitings and reports lots of fellow hikers still enjoying the trail. I'll check with them if they want their trail names divulged. Oh well! I wonder where these SOBO's ran into the rangers? Must have wandered off trail into the waysides/campgrounds/picnic grounds/SNP public areas. And why would rangers still be around anyway? I also talked to a PATC volunteer, a very nice lady who gave me a ride to Wash. Dulles yesterday, and she claimed no problem continuing huiking the AT in SNP. But she did say that she would be glad to resupply or give rides to any hikers at the public road Skyline Drive crossings (that I assume are still open, right???)

[Mobius]

Sorry I was "snarky" before, Ms. B, if you're referring to my response yesterday. Still, this latest report is in direct conflict with two SOBO's I recently corresponded with who have had no ranger sitings and reports lots of fellow hikers still enjoying the trail. I'll check with them if they want their trail names divulged. Oh well! I wonder where these SOBO's ran into the rangers? Must have wandered off trail into the waysides/campgrounds/picnic grounds/SNP public areas. And why would rangers still be around anyway? I also talked to a PATC volunteer, a very nice lady who gave me a ride to Wash. Dulles yesterday, and she claimed no problem continuing huiking the AT in SNP. But she did say that she would be glad to resupply or give rides to any hikers at the public road Skyline Drive crossings (that I assume are still open, right???)

I could be reading it wrong, but it looks like the PATC website specifically lists SNP (and the two big National Forests in VA) as being closed to hikers. http://www.patc.net/PublicView/

[Mrs Baggins]

Sorry I was "snarky" before, Ms. B, if you're referring to my response yesterday. Still, this latest report is in direct conflict with two SOBO's I recently corresponded with who have had no ranger sitings and reports lots of fellow hikers still enjoying the trail. I'll check with them if they want their trail names divulged. Oh well! I wonder where these SOBO's ran into the rangers? Must have wandered off trail into the waysides/campgrounds/picnic grounds/SNP public areas. And why would rangers still be around anyway? I also talked to a PATC volunteer, a very nice lady who gave me a ride to Wash. Dulles yesterday, and she claimed no problem continuing huiking the AT in SNP. But she did say that she would be glad to resupply or give rides to any hikers at the public road Skyline Drive crossings (that I assume are still open, right???)

I'm sorry, too. We're all on edge about all of this and it seems no two stories match up. I have no reason to not believe the guy that said he was kicked out on the 1st. Obviously there are rangers that are enforcing the rule and there are rangers that are not. I've also read that rangers are not furloughed but aren't getting paid either. I had a lady drop out of a planned backpacking trip this weekend on the AT because she is convinced that the entire AT is closed. I rerouted the hike away from the towpath and Harpers Ferry to avoid any problems/confrontations and then find out the towpath is loaded with hikers/bikers.

[colorado_rob]

I could be reading it wrong, but it looks like the PATC website specifically lists SNP (and the two big National Forests in VA) as being closed to hikers. http://www.patc.net/PublicView/ Well, I think we've established that yes, everything official says the AT within park is closed. But I think it's also clear that many are still enjoying the trail, and many "official" people (such as some PATC menbers and some rangers) say don't worry about it and just Hike On. I sure hope most people do just that. That all being said, if in fact there are "closed" signs on the AT proper at the park boundaries, I would indeed obey the post. When I exited the north end of the park yesterday, there was no such notice at the northern boundary of SNP. Plus there were plenty of SOBO's I passed and discussed this all with and they had zero intention of stopping. They were of course bummed about having no services along the trail inside the park. I personally relied on these services (stores and waysides) this last week as I entered the south end with only 2-3 days of food and spent 5 1/2 days in the park.

[jeffmeh]

Incidentally, while we trailheads tend to be a very small minority, if you survey the media coverage of shutdown concerns, the most prominent one is the closing of the parks.

[HooKooDooKu]

Let's not get into the politics of it folks. The Departments and Agencies have shutdown procedures already codified prior to shutdown, and still have nonexempt personelle in charge operating under rules and laws pertaining to shutdowns. Use of federal property is established by law, passed by Congress, handed off to the executeive branch, and watched over by the courts. This thread is just to pass on information on what's open for hiking. OK please? Go do whatever you want about it, but keep the discussion here about hiking places on federal land and keep the suggestions legal. TYVM.
Sorry if my post sounded political... I don't mean to take it there... I was just simply trying to explain what (IMHO) is the logic behind the reason that we currently do not get to hike "on our land".

[HikerMom58]

Well, I think we've established that yes, everything official says the AT within park is closed. But I think it's also clear that many are still enjoying the trail, and many "official" people (such as some PATC menbers and some rangers) say don't worry about it and just Hike On. I sure hope most people do just that. That all being said, if in fact there are "closed" signs on the AT proper at the park boundaries, I would indeed obey the post. When I exited the north end of the park yesterday, there was no such notice at the northern boundary of SNP. Plus there were plenty of SOBO's I passed and discussed this all with and they had zero intention of stopping. They were of course bummed about having no services along the trail inside the park. I personally relied on these services (stores and waysides) this last week as I entered the south end with only 2-3 days of food and spent 5 1/2 days in the park.

I'm glad to see you back on here C_R... hope you had a good section hike thru VA. :)


Incidentally, while we trailheads tend to be a very small minority, if you survey the media coverage of shutdown concerns, the most prominent one is the closing of the parks.

This info doesn't directly affect hikers on the AT thru Central VA but just as a FYI.. the Blue Ridge Parkway is still open.
All the services along the BRP are closed.

I'm happy about the road being open so I can get up on the BRP to get water on the AT... it's really getting very dry around here.
Maybe the hurricane "Karen" will change all that for us shortly.... ;P

[illabelle]

Maybe the hurricane "Karen" will change all that for us shortly.... ;P

A hurricane named Karen? :-? Hmmm, that could be interesting.

[Ewker]

I'm glad to see you back on here C_R... hope you had a good section hike thru VA. :)


glad to see you back hikermom

[Trillium]

Sorry if my post sounded political... I don't mean to take it there... I was just simply trying to explain what (IMHO) is the logic behind the reason that we currently do not get to hike "on our land".Your post was not political. I agree that you only were explaining the possible logic behind the shutdown procedures.

[Ewker]

Blue Ridge Parkway closes due to government shutdown

http://www.thecarrollnews.com/news/home_top-news/2601040/Blue-Ridge-Parkway-closes-due-to-government-shutdown (http://www.thecarrollnews.com/news/home_top-news/2601040/Blue-Ridge-Parkway-closes-due-to-government-shutdown)

[HikerMom58]

A hurricane named Karen? :-? Hmmm, that could be interesting.

Ha ha!! Yeah.... I don't think there's ever been a "Karen" before. :eek:


glad to see you back hikermom

Thanks Ewker.. :D

The Blue Ridge Parkway roadway is still open tho... I heard someone had the choice to close the gates or keep them open, they chose to keep them open. Yay!!

Here in Roanoke, the locals use the BRP all the time to travel on from one side of the city to the other.

I'm aware of a 4 mile night trail run coming up in a few weeks that would have to be cancelled if they closed the Parkway road itself.
A lot of people use the Parkway to do day hikes and/or section hikes as well. A BRP closure would impact us in a BIG way.

[colorado_rob]

I wonder if this is the guy "busting" SNP AT hikers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwVpSBKzQYo

[da fungo]

Sorry I was "snarky" before, Ms. B, if you're referring to my response yesterday. ..... And why would rangers still be around anyway?...

Colordo rob, I greatly admire your polite apology, even though you clearly don't think you were wrong. We could use more of that sort of civility around here.

As to why the rangers? Well, remember, they're not all laid off. And those law enforcement rangers still working are.....enforcing the law: looking for poachers and/or Dakota Joe types seeking to take advantage of the situation ( not to mention smuggling or manufacturing drugs ); looking for silly mooks who have gotten themselves into trouble; even looking for through hikers to run them out of the park. Law enforcement doesn't work by catching everyone; just by catching and punishing enough people to discourage almost everyone from breaking the law.

[Mrs Baggins]

I have a friend who is biking the towpath from Cumberland to DC. She left a voice mail tonight to please bring her water. They've turned off all of the water pumps along the way. Cause WOW that just cost the government so much to run!

[The Roundabouts]

I live near Wolf Gap and as of today the forest Service roads were open. They are usually closed Jan. to March so there are gates but they are open going to Big Schloss Cut-off trail. The parking lot at Wolf Gap has yellow tape across but a few cars were parked there. The link to the PATC says no hikes or work trips can take place. So I think the PATC is cancelling any group hikes but doesn't specifically say there is no hiking.

[4thandgoal]

While ive been deleted once before for only asking a question about the closure, I would really like to know how we can have a discussion about the NPS shutdown WITHOUT discussing politics? Im not saying house floor brawls, but it is one and the same.

[Alligator]

Sorry if my post sounded political... I don't mean to take it there... I was just simply trying to explain what (IMHO) is the logic behind the reason that we currently do not get to hike "on our land".


Your post was not political. I agree that you only were explaining the possible logic behind the shutdown procedures.


While ive been deleted once before for only asking a question about the closure, I would really like to know how we can have a discussion about the NPS shutdown WITHOUT discussing politics? Im not saying house floor brawls, but it is one and the same.You talk about what areas are closed. You don't go into what's going on in Congress, who's fault it is, or what needs to be done to fix it. Because we do not allow politics and this particular issue is a raging political mess. We know the government is shutdown, the thread is for how hikers are affected regarding hiking on public lands. If you have information about what is open or closed post it, but keep in mind the hiker/hiking link. Thanks.

[Sparkeh]

http://www.greenmountainclub.org/news.php?id=332

Vermont is open

[Hill Ape]

gator, overall I agree with the no politics policy, and i'm not questioning the moderators determination or the TOS of this site. but I think there may come a point when a choice has to made, do we as a community zealously advocate for the use of the lands we enjoy, or do we simply say "well, the trail is closed" and move on to other trails? last time this happened it lasted for 23 days. at what point is it in our best interest to become political about it? this website is the largest online forum for the AT, there is an opportunity to have a meaningful voice if you/troll/management so choose. I don't want people that aren't passionate about the trail making decisions about the policies we must follow, I want backpackers to have a voice. perhaps we could have a subforum or group that allows politics to be discussed as it impacts the trail? on that, i'll get off my soap box, hope I didn't cross a line with anyone.

[Alligator]

First and foremost this is a SF thread and the question centered on the NPs. I left the National Forest posts in because a lot of people get the two mixed up. But the intent was to discuss access issues.

Hill Ape we do at times let politics get posted if it directly concerns the AT, and this does. But the political sticky point is the Affordable Care Act (aka as Obamacare) with the AT and the rest of the country as collateral damage. This isn't a specific law targeting the AT nor a targeted budget request nor a court case affecting AT lands. It's a budget fight. The whole budget no less, not just a single spending bill, it's all of them. It would set a precedent that any time there is a budget fight looming, politics would get discussed because the AT would be affected. I see your point about wanting to get this reversed but the thought of running a thread about it and the political dialogue that will likely ensue is not very appealing. There is very little interest by the admins to run a political forum or group. We had one previously, it was not pretty. Politics is very polarizing.

But I have an idea that might work, I don't know if it is a workable solution but I created a group called Non-Partisan Solutions to Getting Our Trails Reopened. It's in the Groups area. You click on the Groups icon to get there. Top of the page. I am transferring group ownership to someone else I have in mind, I will see if he will accept the role. The membership is set to moderated, so join requests will need to be processed.

Now can we keep this thread more straight forward please.

[HikerMom58]

First and foremost this is a SF thread and the question centered on the NPs. I left the National Forest posts in because a lot of people get the two mixed up. But the intent was to discuss access issues.

Hill Ape we do at times let politics get posted if it directly concerns the AT, and this does. But the political sticky point is the Affordable Care Act (aka as Obamacare) with the AT and the rest of the country as collateral damage. This isn't a specific law targeting the AT nor a targeted budget request nor a court case affecting AT lands. It's a budget fight. The whole budget no less, not just a single spending bill, it's all of them. It would set a precedent that any time there is a budget fight looming, politics would get discussed because the AT would be affected. I see your point about wanting to get this reversed but the thought of running a thread about it and the political dialogue that will likely ensue is not very appealing. There is very little interest by the admins to run a political forum or group. We had one previously, it was not pretty. Politics is very polarizing.

But I have an idea that might work, I don't know if it is a workable solution but I created a group called Non-Partisan Solutions to Getting Our Trails Reopened. It's in the Groups area. You click on the Groups icon to get there. Top of the page. I am transferring group ownership to someone else I have in mind, I will see if he will accept the role. The membership is set to moderated, so join requests will need to be processed.

Now can we keep this thread more straight forward please.

I have a question about your idea. What's the point of a private group discussing this issue?? If the same rules apply in the group, nothing that wouldn't be tolerated on the main site wouldn't be allowed in there, either.Because the group is private no one can even see what y'all are discussing, much less participate without an invite. That piece makes no sense to me. Just for the record, I wouldn't want to participate..I've got nothing.

Soooo why not start the thread on the main site called.. Non-Partisan Solutions to Getting our Trail Reopened??

I understand the risk you take by opening such a thread. This subject is a political nightmare but, in the end on this site, you have 100% control. You can "fix" it.

The members that really care about abiding by the rules will not keep pushing the envelope. The ones that don't care will push it. You have the ability to distinguish between the two. You can thread block the ones that don't care.

If you figure something out in your group, can we get a report??

I like this thread b/c we can report to each other what we know about how our government shut down is affecting hikers using the trail. We can all participate. Thanks.

[Alleghanian Orogeny]

Blue Ridge Parkway closes due to government shutdown

http://www.thecarrollnews.com/news/home_top-news/2601040/Blue-Ridge-Parkway-closes-due-to-government-shutdown (http://www.thecarrollnews.com/news/home_top-news/2601040/Blue-Ridge-Parkway-closes-due-to-government-shutdown)

The highway portion of the Blue Ridge Parkway remains open to normal vehicular traffic. It is the various visitor centers, rest areas, campgrounds, etc, which are closed. My wife and some friends have been driving the BRP between Blowing Rock and Linville Falls, NC to access hiking trails since Tuesday of this week. This article states the same--highway open, facilities closed.

AO

[Alligator]

I have a question about your idea. What's the point of a private group discussing this issue?? If the same rules apply in the group, nothing that wouldn't be tolerated on the main site wouldn't be allowed in there, either.Because the group is private no one can even see what y'all are discussing, much less participate without an invite. That piece makes no sense to me. Just for the record, I wouldn't want to participate..I've got nothing.

Soooo why not start the thread on the main site called.. Non-Partisan Solutions to Getting our Trail Reopened??

I understand the risk you take by opening such a thread. This subject is a political nightmare but, in the end on this site, you have 100% control. You can "fix" it.

The members that really care about abiding by the rules will not keep pushing the envelope. The ones that don't care will push it. You have the ability to distinguish between the two. You can thread block the ones that don't care.

If you figure something out in your group, can we get a report??

I like this thread b/c we can report to each other what we know about how our government shut down is affecting hikers using the trail. We can all participate. Thanks.OK good questions.

There is no invite needed, the group is set to moderated (user requests to join). Anyone can join, then their join will be approved. This is different than an invite only group. There a user has to be invited by the group owner to join. The groups area is outside of search spiders so it does not get imaged on the web. There are more options for creating discussions within a group that help to organize the discussions (threads). A user can bypass a thread block by logging in as a guest, but if removed from a group, the access is cut off completely. I am not going to keep junking up this thread so go to the Group if you would like to ask any more questions. I have asked Sailing Faith to be the group owner. He will approve joins as he gets to them.

I am going to delete any further off topic material. I have asked enough times already for people to keep it SF. Use PM if you have to. THANKS!

[Grampie]

The folks who manage the AMC cabin at Upper Goose Pond have been told to close the cabin for the use by hikers. The property is owned by the NPS but is staffed and maintained by voulenteers. The cabin was scheduled to be closed for the season on Oct. 20.

[da fungo]

So, in conformance with the Sreaight Forward Forum rules:

Has anyone been to sections of the AT in NJ THIS WEEK; that is, since the federal shutdown began?

If so, can you provide any information on the status of the trail? Please be specific about the location.

Thanks.

[thestin]

I drove up the entrance station at Thornton Gap on the Skyline Drive yesterday afternoon. There was a handwritten sign in the unoccupied kiosk the the Shenandoah National Park is closed for all uses, including trails...they used a term that "no recreating was allowed". That said, there were numerous cars parked at Milepost 0 in Front Royal and it appears that the Dickey Ridge trail into the park is being used. I saw no rangers at either entrance point.

[peakbagger]

AMC issued the following on their facilitates in the whites

http://news.outdoors.org/2013/10/mohican-closed-due-to-federal.html

[richmondhokie]

Called the AT Conservancy and talked to a dude who said he understood the AT section im planning to hike next weekend (Rockfish Gap to Crabtree Falls) through the George Washington/Jefferson National Forest was closed. He said the trail through Pennsylvania is open because it’s almost exclusively in state forests. I don’t want to drive to Pennsylvania to hike 30-40 miles.

[Southerner]

@ RichmondHokie: I just got back today from the section just south of Crabtree Falls (Tar Jacket Ridge / Cole(d) Mountain), and it was business as usual. I even drove the Parkway all the way home. I didn't see any closure notices on the trail at all. I heard rumors that some through-hikers were kicked out of SNP. You may not be able to park at Crabtree Falls because that is a fee area of the USFS, but I suspect you could hike without being in violation of any USFS directives.

[HikerMom58]

@ RichmondHokie: I just got back today from the section just south of Crabtree Falls (Tar Jacket Ridge / Cole(d) Mountain), and it was business as usual. I even drove the Parkway all the way home. I didn't see any closure notices on the trail at all. I heard rumors that some through-hikers were kicked out of SNP. You may not be able to park at Crabtree Falls because that is a fee area of the USFS, but I suspect you could hike without being in violation of any USFS directives.

Thanks for that info, Southerner. :) THE BLUE RIDGE PARKWAY IS OPEN!! YIPEEEE!!!

Thanks for the clarification on my question, Alligator.

[jimmyjam]

I am down here south of daleville and there are some closure signs. but the big problem is lack of water.

[Astro]

I am down here south of daleville and there are some closure signs. but the big problem is lack of water.

JimmyJam, Where are you seeing water shortages at specifically?

[da fungo]

For those interested, you'll find some detailed planning information for National Park closures at this DOI page:

http://www.doi.gov/shutdown/index.cfm

The National Park Service specifc information is nearer the bottom than the top of the page.

[jimmyjam]

JimmyJam, Where are you seeing water shortages at specifically?

Most springs are dry and many creeks are dry or are puddles at best. this should change in a few days after the hurricane .

[HikerMom58]

http://www.wbir.com/story/news/local/2013/10/04/great-smoky-mountains-trails-shutdown-injured-emergency/2924141/

So this is what happens when someone gets hurt on a closed trail ^^^.. I'm glad she is OK.

JJ... if you let me know where to put water jugs south of Daleville, I'll do it. The rain is supposed to start on Monday.

[Rasty]

Any updates on GSMNP?

[googlywoogly]

The overflow parking area on old US 41 for Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield remains open. I parked there this morning and did my 7ish mile hill march. There were a lot of other folks walking around out there too. All other satellite parking areas, and the main parking lot at the visitor center remain closed.

[Don H]

24316
Here's what greats NOBOs at Rockfish Gap. The sign is facing the trail, not the road so I can only assume it is ment for hikers, flashing yellow light and all.

[Train Wreck]

http://washingtonexaminer.com/scott-walker-refuses-federal-order-to-close-state-parks/article/2536844

The Badger State is now known as the Honey Badger State :D

[Don H]

I have a friend who is biking the towpath from Cumberland to DC. She left a voice mail tonight to please bring her water. They've turned off all of the water pumps along the way. Cause WOW that just cost the government so much to run! Bastards.

The pumps are hand pumps, they cost nothing to run. They usually take the handle off when they don't want you to use them such as when the water tests bad.

[max patch]

I have a friend who is biking the towpath from Cumberland to DC. She left a voice mail tonight to please bring her water. They've turned off all of the water pumps along the way. Cause WOW that just cost the government so much to run!

The pumps are seasonal and are shut off every fall. This could be a seasonal shut off or it could be the bureaucrats sticking it to the trail users. Or it could be (my guess) that they are shut off early as they don't have a crystal ball and don't know if they will still be furloughed when the normal shut off time arrives.

[Don H]

And since the AT follows the C&O Canal for 3 miles here's what NPS says is going on there.



Visitor traffic, whether on foot, bike, or horse, is strictly prohibited.
Bicyclists planning rides from Pittsburgh to DC on the GAP and C&O Canal should plan to turn back at Cumberland.
All Visitors Centers are CLOSED.
Hiker/Bikers and campgrounds are CLOSED.
The Canal Quarters lockhouses are CLOSED.
All restroom facilities, both permanent and portable, are CLOSED.
Handles have been removed from all well pumps.
The only Park staff that will be on duty will be law enforcement rangers.
The portion of the Capital Crescent Trail that runs parallel to the towpath in DC is managed by the C&O Canal NHP and is CLOSED.
All access roads to the Park are CLOSED. This means you will not be able to trailer boats to boat ramps along the towpath.
Interpretive and educational programming in the Park will be temporarily suspended. School field trips to the Park will need to be rescheduled once Park staff has returned.
Volunteer events and events requiring special use permits will not be able to take place.
All volunteers working in an official capacity should cease volunteer activities immediately and not enter the Park's premises.


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/coTowpath/conversations/topics/9345

[Don H]

And this from the ATC site.


The Appalachian Trail is now officially closed across the approximately 700 miles managed by the National Park Service. Because of the shutdown, all National Park Service – Volunteers In Parks (VIP) and USDA Forest Service - Volunteer In Forests (VIF) volunteer programs will be terminated. Therefore, for the duration of the shutdown, the ATC will not be able to engage with volunteers in activities on the Trail, Trail facilities, or Trail lands. We also are required to close our visitor center in Boiling Springs, PA.

​Other than SNP and GSMNP where else does the trail go through NPS land?

[da fungo]

​Other than SNP and GSMNP where else does the trail go through NPS land?




The southern 20 or so miles in New Jersey is within the Delaware Water Gap NRA, managed by the Park Service. But one White Blazer drove to the Dunnfield Creek parking area this morning, saw many cars in the parking area, no signs or markings of closure, and some state park employees he met said they'd seen no federal efforts to enforce a closure.

[HikerMom58]

And this from the ATC site.


The Appalachian Trail is now officially closed across the approximately 700 miles managed by the National Park Service. Because of the shutdown, all National Park Service – Volunteers In Parks (VIP) and USDA Forest Service - Volunteer In Forests (VIF) volunteer programs will be terminated. Therefore, for the duration of the shutdown, the ATC will not be able to engage with volunteers in activities on the Trail, Trail facilities, or Trail lands. We also are required to close our visitor center in Boiling Springs, PA.

​Other than SNP and GSMNP where else does the trail go through NPS land?




It must go through Central VA.... just got back from the trail head at Rt.311 in Catawba. There was a closed trail sign posted at the trail crossing. I must say the sign looked "lame". Almost like it was just put up as a "formality".

No mention of trespassing or fines for not staying off the trail. The parking lot was overflowing with cars as usual. Hikers were out in full force to hike McAfee Knob.

I noticed the ridgerunner had signed in on the trail register today. People I talked to were saying he was on the trail with everyone else just mentioning that the trail was closed, if someone asked about it.

The thing that struck me about the posted sign- there was no mention of the length of the trail closure in VA. How much of the trail is closed?? Is it from Rt. 311 north to Waynesboro and south too- ????

The sign simply said the trail was closed per the government. The sign wasn't very big & rather smallish black letters on white paper.

[Mrs Baggins]

And since the AT follows the C&O Canal for 3 miles here's what NPS says is going on there.



Visitor traffic, whether on foot, bike, or horse, is strictly prohibited.
Bicyclists planning rides from Pittsburgh to DC on the GAP and C&O Canal should plan to turn back at Cumberland.
All Visitors Centers are CLOSED.
Hiker/Bikers and campgrounds are CLOSED.
The Canal Quarters lockhouses are CLOSED.
All restroom facilities, both permanent and portable, are CLOSED.
Handles have been removed from all well pumps.
The only Park staff that will be on duty will be law enforcement rangers.
The portion of the Capital Crescent Trail that runs parallel to the towpath in DC is managed by the C&O Canal NHP and is CLOSED.
All access roads to the Park are CLOSED. This means you will not be able to trailer boats to boat ramps along the towpath.
Interpretive and educational programming in the Park will be temporarily suspended. School field trips to the Park will need to be rescheduled once Park staff has returned.
Volunteer events and events requiring special use permits will not be able to take place.
All volunteers working in an official capacity should cease volunteer activities immediately and not enter the Park's premises.


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/coTowpath/conversations/topics/9345

Uummm.....yeah. No. I am in touch with a biker on the towpath. She left Cumberland on Wednesday morning, along with what she said was many other bikers, and she was in Harpers Ferry today. Her only complaint was that the Fed had removed all of the water pump handles in the primitive campgrounds, so hikers and bikers had to go off the towpath to find water. Other than that...no problem biking along.

[Marta]

Over in Glacier, the rangers have eased up about letting customers enter the Park in order to visit the two open stores--Eddie's and Montana House in Apgar. They even let us put up a sign at the blockade to state that the stores are open. It was a gorgeous day and a few people were shopping...and walking along the sidewalk towards Lake McDonald. The rangers didn't seem to be bothering people as long as they didn't try to get further into the Park or use the boat ramp.

As I was leaving for work the last couple of days I've noticed the construction crews coming to work on the Going to the Sun Rd. project. I assume they figure they'll get paid eventually, and aren't going to waste the last couple weeks of the construction season.

[genetic claybuilding]

I'm sure this has been mentioned several times already, but I don't have the time to search for it. So if someone could give me a quick answer:

Are the road entrances to the GSMNP barricaded?

If not, does anyone have informed information whether your car would be towed by the NPS if you park at a trailhead within the park?

Thanks.

[MuddyWaters]

Major roads into the park, such as to Cades Cove, are gated and closed.

441 is obviously not. There could also be minor dirt/gravel roads that dont have gates and might only be posted, hard to say.

The parking area and overlook on 441 is "supposed" to be closed as well.

Something like 40+ law enforcement personnel still remain on duty in the park. Getting your car towed would be the least of your worries. You would recieve a substantial fine, and probably jailed with criminal charges. All they have to do is run your tags.

Forget whatever you are thinking.

24330

[da fungo]

Just so you know:

Trespassing in a national park carries a maximum fine of $500 and up to six months in jail, according to the Criminal Resource Manual issued to U.S. attorneys.

Source (http://www.npr.org/2013/10/03/228719015/national-parks-close-as-other-public-lands-stay-open)

Also:

TITLE 18 § 1863. Trespass on national forest lands
Whoever, without lawful authority or permission, goes upon any national-forest land while it is closed to the public pursuant to lawful regulation of the Secretary of Agriculture, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

See also, 16 USC § 21, 28 USC § 2415, and 42 USC § 2278a. (National Parks, Native American and public lands, federally regulated facilities, such as nuke plants).

[genetic claybuilding]

Thanks for the legal warnings, counsel.

Please keep future replies on point. Thanks.

[da fungo]

Thanks for the legal warnings, counsel.

Please keep future replies on point. Thanks.

What's off point about letting people know what they possibly face if they chose to go into closed areas?

[MuddyWaters]

I was just at Fontana Dam yesterday, the dam is open, the dam parking lot is open and will remain so I was told with hikers parking there for other trips south of there.

There is no chance of being towed there, at least. That is outside the park boundary. Yesterday there were still hikers showing up not realizing the park was closed.

[HikerMom58]

Just got back from Jennings Creek- VA 614 (near Cove Mt. Shelter) ... no trail closure signs in that area, that we could find.

[HooKooDooKu]

Are the road entrances to the GSMNP barricaded?
All 'tourist' roads are closed. This would include things like Clingman's Dome, Roaring Fork, and Little River Road.

441 is different. Without getting technical, this isn't so much a National Park Road as it is a thoroughfare between Gatlinburg and Cherokee. As such, you my travel 441 to get between these cities. But you may not use 441 to access any part of the National Park.

So as I understand it, every road in GSMNP is closed except for 441, the Gatlinburg Bypass, and the roads that connect these roads together.

[Mrs Baggins]

We were driving up to Biglerville PA to buy apples and took the off-ramp from Hwy 15 that goes thru Gettysburg NP land. They have all of the access roads to the battlefield, monuments, and to the cemetery completely closed off. They blocked off the parking lot that everyone uses for the cemetery and then locked the gates to the cemetery itself. I was supposed to lead a hike of the battlefield on Wednesday but now I'm looking for another hike to do that day.

[BabySue]

Headed to Tellico Gap soon. Seems like that area should be accessible ... right? Thanks.

[colorado_rob]

Just so you know:

Trespassing in a national park carries a maximum fine of $500 and up to six months in jail, according to the Criminal Resource Manual issued to U.S. attorneys.

Source (http://www.npr.org/2013/10/03/228719015/national-parks-close-as-other-public-lands-stay-open)

Also:

TITLE 18 § 1863. Trespass on national forest lands
Whoever, without lawful authority or permission, goes upon any national-forest land while it is closed to the public pursuant to lawful regulation of the Secretary of Agriculture, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

See also, 16 USC § 21, 28 USC § 2415, and 42 USC § 2278a. (National Parks, Native American and public lands, federally regulated facilities, such as nuke plants). ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????

[Mrs Baggins]

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What is so hard to understand about that? Break the law, suffer the fine. Pretty simple.

[Namtrag]

We just hiked in Mt Rogers NRA, which is a usfs administered area. No closure signs, and lots and lots of people, many of them students from UNC and NC State. It was business as usual from what I could see. The pit toilet at Scales was not locked.

[Prime Time]

We just hiked in Mt Rogers NRA, which is a usfs administered area. No closure signs, and lots and lots of people, many of them students from UNC and NC State. It was business as usual from what I could see. The pit toilet at Scales was not locked.
No one is going to stop anyone from hiking on the AT. How and why would they?

[Theosus]

No one is going to stop anyone from hiking on the AT. How and why would they?

1. because they can
2. to prove a point
3. just wait until you cross the road with a pack on in the GSMNP or some other national park
4. to make money
5. because its really boring out there not helping lost tourists and catching poachers and whatnot

[MuddyWaters]

Primarily its national parks that are closed.
They are designated as national treasures, and are heavily staffed to protect them, as well as educate and control visitors to prevent damage to them

Other areas are not as irreplaceable and so are not.

[da fungo]

Primarily its national parks that are closed.They are designated as national treasures, and are heavily staffed to protect them, as well as educate and control visitors to prevent damage to themOther areas are not as irreplaceable and so are not.

I wish I could agree with you, but officially the national forests are closed, too. The political rationale fr all closures has nothing to do with common sense, or resource protection, but in inflicting maximum discomfort on the public, for political gain. In an environment driven by those kinds of concerns, it's a good idea to know the worst that can happen to you, and to not be surprised when it happens to someone, some where.

[Namtrag]

You are only partially correct about the National Forests. While facilities are closed, the actual land and forests are open, at least in a few of them. Some of them have released press releases to that effect. While most national forests have not stated one way or another we used the precedence that, lack of any signage or evidence to the contrary, if one is open per a press release, then all are open.

[da fungo]

Well, that's true, too, apparently, while at the same time at the HQ level in DC, they've said all forests are closed to recreation.
I'm glad that some locations are showing some common sense and are not trying to prevent all use but it's sure confusing.

[rickb]

Well, that's true, too, apparently, while at the same time at the HQ level in DC, they've said all forests are closed to recreation.

Can you please provide a citation from an official source?

[Namtrag]

ASHEVILLE, N.C. – Most facilities in the national forests in North Carolina are closed due to a lapse in federal government funding.

The closure affects offices, many campgrounds, day use areas, bathrooms, shooting ranges, off-highway vehicle trails, fee areas and other facilities managed by U.S. Forest Service in the Nantahala, Pisgah, Uwharrie, and Croatan National Forests.

The following campgrounds, operated by concessionaires, will remain open.
Pisgah National Forest: Black Mountain Campground; Briar Bottom Group Camp; Carolina Hemlocks Recreation; Cove Creek Campground; Davidson River Campground; Kimsey Creek Group Campground; Kuykendall Group Campground; Lake Powhatan Recreation Area; North Mills River Recreation Area; Sunburst Recreation Area; and White Pines Group Campground.
Nantahala National Forest: Cliffside Day Use Area; Van Hook Glade Campground; and Standing Indian/Kimsey Creek/Hurricane Creek Recreation Complex.

Visitors may still hike, fish and use undeveloped recreational areas of the national forests during the closure period. No restrooms or trash collection will be available at trailheads, and visitors are encouraged to practice Leave No Trace ethics. Only essential Forest Service employees, such as firefighters, will continue working during the closure. All volunteer activities are cancelled.

[EODK9Trainer]

What's off point about letting people know what they possibly face if they chose to go into closed areas?

Agreed. Considering the topic I thought it appropriate.

[Don H]

Primarily its national parks that are closed.
They are designated as national treasures, and are heavily staffed to protect them, as well as educate and control visitors to prevent damage to them

Other areas are not as irreplaceable and so are not.

How about the ATC center in Boiling Springs, why would that be closed? Maybe because of all those federal workers needed to man it?

[rickb]

I had understood that the NPS was the managing authority for a great many trail miles OUTSIDE of the National Parks themselves and the National Forests.

[da fungo]

Can you please provide a citation from an official source?
Sure: Just go to the USFS web site.

Look, it occurs to me that two different things are being said here:

On the one hand, some federal outdoor recreation facilities - apparently more forests than parks, are at a loca level either staing open or choosing to turn a blind eye to violations of the closure.

On the other hand, at the Department level of the Government, all such facilities have been formally declared closed to the public.

Both are true. As a practical matter, no one is likely to even be challenged, let alone sanctioned if they go in the forests and parks. But people should be aware that they could be sanctioned What would you do, appear before a Federal Magistrate and invoke the White Blaze defense: I'm not guilty, your honor, because right there on White Blaze, this guy said it was okay for me to walk right past those signs and barriers and do what I want. After all, those parks and forests belong to the People. Magistrate's reply: Then let's allow you to become familiar with the people's Bureau of Prisons. They have fine recreational facilities, and the showers still work.

[rickb]

Sure: Just go to the USFS web site.
.

Do you mean here?

http://www.fs.fed.us/

If so, I don't think their words mean what you think they mean.