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Patrick
08-17-2005, 01:01
Okay, my next question...

How much do I need to worry about the cold? I've read a ton about the under-quilts, pads inside, etc and don't know what to expect.

My current set up is a Cat's Meow 20-degree bag and a Z-Rest mattress cut to eight sections -- enough for my shoulders to butt. I've slept under a tarp for years. That does me comfortable down to pretty cold. I'm great at just below freezing with nothing on and down into the mid-teens with my thermals.

What I want to hear is that I can just throw my current set-up into the hammock and be fine down to around 40-degree nights. Am I being realistic?

I don't mind throwing an extra pad or something into the hammock, or switching to a wider one (although I'd prefer not to -- mine is perfect inside my pack now). However, if I have to start adding under-quilts etc, I have to begin to question the whole hanging thing.

I don't mind doing extreme stuff in the winter. I'm talking about three-season camping here.

Thanks.

Hammock Hanger
08-17-2005, 07:27
When it is cold hammock camping is not as lightwt but it is still "most comfortable". You do need a few extra things to keep the underside of you warm. JrB makes pretty light stuff though and it definately makes life in a hammock warmer in the cold. It's not that you need any extra clothing or heavier sleeping bag but you WILL need some extra loft underneath you. Once you get the right combo you will be happy, comfy and warm. Sue

rpettit
08-17-2005, 07:49
From my experience, you should be concerned about bottom insulation when the temps drop below 65. Lows around 40 will definitely require an insulating strategy i.e., underquilt, supershelter, multiple pads. Your sleeping bag adds very little insulative value to the bottom since because it will compress under you. Test out a insulating system before you go backpacking with it. I can use a 3/4 length blue CCF pad down to 60. At 40 I use a HH undercover with 1 1/2" thick open cell foam pad between the hammock and undercover, below that I pull the 3/4 length CCF pad inside the hammock for additional insulation. The type and amount of insulation required for any given temp seems to vary quite a bit from person to person.

rpettit
08-17-2005, 07:53
http://www.speerhammocks.com/Products/SPE.htm

Multiple pad strategy.

peter_pan
08-17-2005, 09:19
Your Z rest will not be wide enough...cold shoulders and hips will wake you ...plan more....BTW multiple pads are much bulkier and often weight more than UQs....see this picture, http://www.whiteblaze.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/7945/sort/1/cat/500/page/1

Lot of options, do a search for prior discussions on this subject...

Welcome to the hanging crowd.

Pan

Youngblood
08-17-2005, 09:28
You don't have to use multiple pads with the Speer SPE. You can but you can also use single pads. It is not shown on the pictures, but there is an elastic panel on the back side to allow it to accomodate a range of thicknesses in its main compartment.

Relative to sleeping on the ground, it is not too difficult to sleep warm in a hammock down to the 40 to 50 degree range, as it doesn't take a whole lot of bottom side insulation. The biggest issue is usually the width of the insulation due to the tendency of the hammock to wrap around your sides. That doesn't happen on flat ground so you need to make some type of allowance for that when using a hammock. There are many techniques that will allow you to sleep warm and comfortable in hammocks in these temperature ranges and it is basically personal preference and maybe cost figured in as well. Peapods and underquilts work very well in this range of temperatures. It is difficult to sleep directly on closed cell foam pads, but if you have it contained in some type of appropriate fabric it will behave well enough.

When you start getting to freezing temperatures and below, you need to be more concerned in a hammock... they can be unforgiving on the bottom side. First, you need enough insulation and you need to minimize air gaps or accomodate them in some manner. Think of insulation around doors and windows, you don't notice you have a problem until it gets really cold. If you are familiar with sleeping bags, it is like the zipper draft tube and neck collar... you can do without them in warm weather bags but they are necessary in cold weather bags. The most reliable bottom side insulation in cold weather is arguably unbroken pads that you can lay on because there is just fundamentally less problem areas. The Speer SPE addresses this for the too narrow 20 inch wide pads customarily used for backpacking with a baffle arrangement for the side wing compartments that allows the insulation to make a tight butt joint with the insulation in the main sleeve in cold weather when you will want to fill the side wings with closed cell foam pads, this works very well as it has virtually no air leakage.

The thicker, warmer self inflating pads that have higher insulating values and closed cell foam can be bulky and or heavy to carry, especially at temperatures well below freezing. At these temperatures, a down air mattress starts looking pretty good. They are pretty light weight and low bulk, but inflation is somewhat of a PIA. A down air mattress is probably the warmest per weight per volume (packed volume or bulk) solution for very, very cold temperatures. Like anything else, there are tradeoffs and areas of concern; some of them are big enough to effect the girth of many hammocks such that the hammock may be too small or even somewhat unstable because the thickness of down air mats may raise you high enough in the hammock to effect its stability.

Youngblood

sheldon
08-17-2005, 12:38
" It is difficult to sleep directly on closed cell foam pads, but if you have it contained in some type of appropriate fabric it will behave well enough."

Why is it difficult to sleep on CC foam? I am getting in the mail today a JRB no sniveller quilt for my new HH ultralite backpacker and I have a CC foam pad 25" wide by 72" long from REI that I was going to try in the hammock. If I have the foam pad underneath me in the hammock and the quilt over me in warm weather, or me inside the quilt in cooler weather, does the CC pad still not work? What type of fabric will does the pad need to be contained in?

papa john
08-17-2005, 13:29
The problem with CC pads is they cannot bend with the curvature of the hammock, they will tend to bunch up. They will also try to slip out from underneath you. I found myself constantly waking up and trying to get the pad back under some part of me during the night. Getting a wider pad did not help and made the bunching problem worse. ake a look at Flyfishers website and the excellent research he has done on staying warm in a hammock. www.imrisk.com (http://www.imrisk.com)

Patrick
08-17-2005, 13:58
I bought another chunk of Z-Rest to try out on an upcoming trip. I tied two extra sections on each side of my current pad, making a cross shape a la SGT Rock. That gives me forty inches at the shoulder.

I realize that this is a whole new framework I'm camping with. Still, I'm reluctant to start adding quilts on the outside and all that. I realize I could probably work out an under-quilt and one for over top of me for about the same weight that I have now with my sleeping bag and pad. However, that's a world of work and expense I'd like to avoid or at least put off.

What about using a pad on the outside? I was thinking of using the cross-shaped pad (or two pads) and attaching them under elastic bands on the outside. Anyone ever try that with any success?

Youngblood
08-17-2005, 15:46
" It is difficult to sleep directly on closed cell foam pads, but if you have it contained in some type of appropriate fabric it will behave well enough."

Why is it difficult to sleep on CC foam? I am getting in the mail today a JRB no sniveller quilt for my new HH ultralite backpacker and I have a CC foam pad 25" wide by 72" long from REI that I was going to try in the hammock. If I have the foam pad underneath me in the hammock and the quilt over me in warm weather, or me inside the quilt in cooler weather, does the CC pad still not work? What type of fabric will does the pad need to be contained in?

Go ahead and try what you got and see how it works for you, it may go fine.

Closed cell pads tend to not let you slide around easily on them (too much friction, I suppose). In the process (sometimes it seems like a wrestling match) of getting yourself properly positioned on them they tend to scoot around against the nylon fabric of the hammock bed where you don't want them. Maybe you can master a technique. They are also a vapor barrier and if you perspire the moisture collects there and wets whatever is in contact with them (that can be a problem if it is your sleeping bag). If a rectangular pad is wide enough to cover your shoulders and hips it sometimes tends to buckle in the area of your waist because of all the compound bends.

As the old the old saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat, so there is nothing magical about any particular technique... many techniques will work fine. On the Speer SPE we selected 1.1 oz ripstop nylon for the fabric and made wings (for the shoulder and hips) that are segmented. This seems to keep the friction between you and a closed cell foam pad in check where it is less of a wrestling match to get positioned, does a reasonable job of wicking away any perspiration and provides a wider pad with relieve in the area where a wider one piece rectangular pad tends to buckle. It also has a few other features that might help, like easily adding and expanding on the insulation that you need. One thing I found on my trip this weekend is that I can lay my damp hiking clothes between the SPE and the hammock (I use a side entry Speer class hammock) and it keeps the SPE from moving around (I'm not sure if that is good or bad) and provides me with dry (or at least dryer) clothes in the morning.

Don't be frightened about staying warm in a hammock in moderate conditions. It is just something different, once you get some experience and understand the physics, science or whatever, you will figure out all kinds of ways to do it... it is still pretty early in the hammock insulation game.

Youngblood

Just Jeff
08-17-2005, 16:32
What about using a pad on the outside? I was thinking of using the cross-shaped pad (or two pads) and attaching them under elastic bands on the outside. Anyone ever try that with any success?
I thought I had a good way to do this, but when I made a little mock-up out of paper I realized that it wouldn't work. Any space between your insulation and you will cause a cold spot, and putting the pad on the outside will inevitably create those spaces. To remove those spaces, you'll have to pull the pad so tight that it'll be uncomfortable and restrict movement.

At least that's how I thought about it. If you find a way to do it, let us know!

You could always add a pad sleeve on bottom, or make a two-layer hammock and put a pad in between.

Carol put small elastic straps inside the hammock to hold CCF pads the size of the SPE wings. She lays her pad inside, then puts the wings into the straps. Total cost of 4 6" elastic straps, about zero if you get them from gear you don't use or old clothes. Time sewing them in...about 10-15 minutes by hand. Only thing is you can't move the whole arrangement around like you can with a SPE...but then you didn't spend the $40 on a SPE and carry the extra few ounces, either. I'll have pics of her setup on my page soon if you're interested.

Patrick
08-17-2005, 17:21
Ooh, I hadn't seen that SPE. I like that a lot. Might be just the thing to use with all the SilNylon I was going to use on a tarp before you guys got me on the hammock train. I used cord and a big-knot-and-loop system to connect my wings, but this system might be much better. Might even be able to get away with using clothing or something else for padding in the lower wings (I'm not very hippy) or something.

I think Velcro strips might be a better way to go to fix the pad on the inside if needed. That would allow for some variety in position if needed.

All right, I'm sold. I'm getting out the sewing machine right now. Pictures later.

What I thought when I got this hammock was, "Well, there goes all of my homemade stuff..."

Oh, one more question. Someone mentioned the problem of condensation if using a pad because it's a vapor barrier. I've never had this problem on the ground. Is there a difference because of being up in the air?

Ratbert
08-17-2005, 17:44
I just tried out my new HH for the first time about 10 days ago on a quick overnight to Springer and it was an eye-opening experience.

The temps were in the mid to upper 80s during the day, hot and muggy. When it was time to crash, I first tried using a hip length Thermarest inside the hammock; only took about 5 minutes of thrashing around before I tossed the thing out. It buckled and scooted and ended up everywhere except right underneath me. After ditching the pad, I pulled my summer-weight Liteloft bag over me like a quilt and dozed off, but woke not long after because the breeze had picked up. I was amazed (no, shocked!) at just how cold I was! Temps couldn't have been lower than mid 60s, but when they blew against the hammock, my butt and shoulders were downright COLD! Shoot, I wouldn't have been cold just standing outside in the breeze, so why so chilled in the hammock?

I finally scooched my bag underneath me and lay inside it, with it zipped to my knees and the chills were gone. The nylon bag and the fiberfill were more than up to the task of killing the wind.

Funny, in a tent I'd have tossed and turned quite a bit, even with a fully inflated Thermarest, but I slept soundly all night in the Hennessy. Sleeping on my back was great and rolling onto my sides was no problem. Solve the insulation dilemma and I'm sold! Didn't fully wake up until just before dawn, and that was only because a boar was snorting and rooting around close by!

I'm thinking that the Speer SPE is the way to go. Add a JRB underquilt with my down Montbell quilt and I think that I can vary the components enough to be quite comfortable, say from mid-March through October. Then in the dead of winter, it's back on the ground. I plan on spending lots of hammock nights on my deck as the weather cools to see just how low I can go.

On another note ... I'm not sure if other new hammock owners find themselves doing this, but everywhere I go now (not just in the woods) I'm looking around thinking, "Hey, I could put my hammock right there." Or, "Hmmm, those two trees would be just right."

trippclark
08-17-2005, 17:58
Solve the insulation dilemma and I'm sold!

Ratbert,

I have seen, but not used Ed Speer's SPE system. This appears to be a comparatively inexpensive solution. I do own and use a down Peapod for my Speer Hammock and a JRB Nest with my HH. With both of these I use a Speer down top blanket quilt as a cover layer. Both of these solutions are well worth the investment.

Tripp

Ratbert
08-17-2005, 18:13
Tripp,

I agree ... when I saw the SPE I thought it looked just about perfect ... innovative, solves the problem, but also plenty flexible. One of those, "Wish I'd thought of that!" products.

Question for SPE owners: Do they stay in place pretty well (I'm thinking of using my Z-Rest with the added foam wings from Speer) or should they be "locked down" somehow? I dunno, toggles? velcro patches?

Youngblood
08-17-2005, 18:31
... Oh, one more question. Someone mentioned the problem of condensation if using a pad because it's a vapor barrier. I've never had this problem on the ground. Is there a difference because of being up in the air?
Yeah, there are a couple of differences. First, on the ground things are relatively flat but in the hammock the pad curls and conforms more closely to your body. This reduces the ventilation, especially when you are on your backside. Second, in a hammock you don't have the pressure points that you typically do on the ground... so you stay in one position longer and don't get as much ventilation. Typically this happens when you sleep all night on your back. Now I'm an old man who has to have a nature break or two during the night so I tend to move a little more than a youngster who might just hit the hammock and not move until morning. I originally went to a two layer hammock partially to help solve the problem of 'taming' closed cell foam. I found the one layer (or regular) hammock was more comfortable for me and that techniques that put synthetic fabic that doesn't absorb water on top of the closed cell foam works equally as well at solving the condensation problem as they tend to wick it away where it vaporizes into the air.

Youngblood

Just Jeff
08-17-2005, 18:44
Patrick, I wouldn't recommend using silnylon for a SPE...it's not breathable. Regular DWR or untreated nylon would reduce condensation much better.

Trippclark, have you tried using the Nest on your Speer? I use it on my Speer more often than on my HH.

Here's the link with elastic straps to hold the wings in place (scroll down):
http://www.geocities.com/jwj32542/HammockCampingWarm.html

Several other insulation options on there, too.

trippclark
08-17-2005, 18:51
Trippclark, have you tried using the Nest on your Speer? I use it on my Speer more often than on my HH.

Yep, sure have . . . works fine (although the peapod works better on the Speer, I think, because it is sized to fit it completely). On a couple of occassions when car camping (and bulk/weight is not an issue), I used my Speer Hammock with BOTH . . . first the Nest and then the Peapod around the whole thing. With this setup, I was TOASTY warm well below freezing without a bunch of layers of clothing (I was shedding layers in fact). Because of bulk, I would not use this for backpacking (a Peapod and Nest solution), but it was real nice for car camping with Scouts.

By the way, I am a cold sleeper.

Tripp

Youngblood
08-17-2005, 19:06
Tripp,

I agree ... when I saw the SPE I thought it looked just about perfect ... innovative, solves the problem, but also plenty flexible. One of those, "Wish I'd thought of that!" products.

Question for SPE owners: Do they stay in place pretty well (I'm thinking of using my Z-Rest with the added foam wings from Speer) or should they be "locked down" somehow? I dunno, toggles? velcro patches?
I may not be the right person to answer this since I am involved with the product. However, I will since it is a fairly new product and I don't know if anyone that has bought one is here to answer.

As you can see from the diagrams and photos, the product has a lot of flexibility and it is mostly what you put in it... it is just a shell. The design is optimised for cold weather where it has significant padding in the wings and main compartment. It is nice that way, especially with self inflating pads giving structure to it. Originally I had envisioned a seperate moderate weather version but after discussions and dog & pony shows with Ed Speer with various prototypes we opted for one product that included enough elastic in the main compartment to handle most anything (actually there are two sizes of one product). Ed felt that asking people to buy a cold weather version and a moderate weather version was not what we wanted to do. We wanted to keep it as inexpensive and flexible as we could. The function of the wings doesn't allow for spandex or adjustment, to do so would compromise cold weather performance. With a stack of pads equal to one inch in thickness inserted into the wings (easiest way is to use a silnylon stuff sack as a sheath to insert them into to wings and pull the stuff sack through when the pads are in place) it has great structure and the insulation in the wings stay pretty well put, also one section of a zrest stays put pretty well but it doesn't have the insulation that one inch of solid closed cell foam has. In moderate temperatures you don't need that much solid closed cell foam in the wings and they are lose enough to be problematic to some people. In moderate weather you can use unused clothing in the wings and that usually stays put pretty well or use a combination of a thin pad and unused clothing. We built protypes with snaps and velcro to close the wings but didn't incorporate that because in use it wasn't always a win-win situation and we were trying very hard to keep the cost down and the functionality high.

Youngblood

Patrick
08-17-2005, 19:31
Jeff,

Haha, you're half an hour late. I'll finish it up and try it out. I can use it as a template if I make it later in another material. Again, though, how come I'm okay sleeping directly on a closed cell pad, which seems like it would be a vapor barrier, but not on one covered with SilNylon?

Ratbert
08-17-2005, 19:42
Youngblood,

It was the product's flexibility that most impressed me ... Ridgerest pad in moderate weather, add wing inserts if colder, squeeze a Thermarest in the main body atop the Ridgerest if colder still (just like ground sleeping), and so on.

My "lock down" question referred to actually keeping the entire system in place while in the hammock. My initial struggle with the Thermarest made me wonder if any pad system would work better by actually attaching it somehow to the hammock body so that it wouldn't squirt around as you got into the hammock and got settled. At Trippclark's suggestion, I was going to email Ed Speer and ask if he's received any feedback from users in this regard. It may be a moot point, I just don't know. Kudos to the developers though, as it certainly looks like a killer idea.

neo
08-17-2005, 22:19
get a 24 x 60 closed cell pad,cut it down to 50 in long take a sleeping bag

with 3/4 length zipper use it as a quilt,nothing to it:cool: neo
http://www.whiteblaze.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/7242/sort/1/cat/500/page/4

Patrick
08-17-2005, 22:58
Hey!

What about one of these linked pads? Cut wings for it and link them to the main body.

http://www.rei.com/product/4010017.htm?vcat=REI_SSHP_CAMPING_TOC

Youngblood
08-17-2005, 23:19
Hey!

What about one of these linked pads? Cut wings for it and link them to the main body.

http://www.rei.com/product/4010017.htm?vcat=REI_SSHP_CAMPING_TOC
You might figure out a way to make it work. I tried those years ago in a hammock. Links wouldn't stay together all that well with the compound bends in the hammock and I recall them being overly firm, not particularly comfortable. In those days I was trying to use a car windshield reflector/sunscreen as the foundation and Velcroing closed cell foam pads in the shape I wanted to the windshield reflector. It had potential but I couldn't get it to work very well, the glue holding the Velcro would fail and or the pads would tear where the Velcro was attached... it was tempermental. The links helped some, but I eventually abandoned that technique for those reasons and a few others. The one I remember at the moment is the condensation/moisture buildup when sleeping directly on a vapor barrier... which lead me to a two layer hammock, but that is another story.

Youngblood

Seeker
08-17-2005, 23:19
i use a really lightweight down bag over me like a quilt. just stick my feet in the bottom, and it lays nicely over top of me.

i initially went through a lot of trouble playing with a thermarest. too slippery. i realized i was comfortable enough with just a cheap walmart pad under me. i found one 24'' wide, and cut it down some, but the 50" NEO mentioned seems about right. i sleep curled up on my left side anyway, so my feet seldom go off the bottom end. can always stick your pack down there as a pad extension.

anyway, i took some leftover bits of blue foam and cut them into 4 pieces about 6" x 14" or so, and round off two edges. i used an empty tin can for the curve pattern. basically same size, shape, and locations as the SPE. i laid them, 2 on each edge, alongside my pad, starting about 8" down from the top. then i taped them to the pad with plain old duct tape. make sure you slit the tape between the two pieces, so they'll hinge independently. turn the pad on it's side, fold the wings down, and put another piece of tape over the two exposed edges. do the same to the other side.

you now have a 24'' wide pad that will still fit rolled up inside a lightweight backpack, yet will be about 30'' wide at the shoulders and hips when unfolded. like all these pads, making a flat surface fit into a banana shaped hammock is a challenge i'm still working on, but the pad does keep me warm. i'm considering cutting slits in the edges of the whole thing, to see if it helps 'shape' the thing better, but i haven't worked that out yet.

get yourself over to sgt rock's website and check out his pad tips... seems to me that maybe that's where i got the idea for my 'wings' from... might even have pictures (i don't have a digital camera, or i'd have sent them). i don't remember.

and welcome to the tree hanging world of the ewoks...

Just Jeff
08-17-2005, 23:30
Apparently the nylon provides enough wicking so it doesn't happen...I've only layed on a SPE long enough to get comfy, not long enough to sweat through, so I can't say. Youngblood and Ed seem to be comfortable in theirs.

There are a few Initial Reports at backpackgeartest.org so I guess we'll have some good answers soon...

Youngblood
08-18-2005, 00:14
Jeff, et all,

You don't have to sweat. You sweat when you overheat and if you overheat enough you are going to sweat enough to get even breathable down wet. But, the nylon does help reduce mositure buildup due to sweat (or perspiration, either sensible or insensible) by wicking it out over a larger area that is open to circulating air.

Think about the situation with waterproof boots and wicking socks. Wicking socks can only wick so much mositure away. Breathable footwear helps this situation alot but even with those if you sweat enough you will end up with wet feet, but obviously not as quickly. For understanding condensation issues, waterproof boots versus breathable footwear is probably a good analogy for understanding the difference between sleeping on a vapor barrier versus sleeping on breathable insulation in a hammock and why wicking fabric helps.

Like most things there are pros and cons. Vapor barriers add warmth as long as you keep moisture buildup from being a problem, they keep outside moisture from getting to you and they are wind proof, but vapor barriers make perspiration related issues more difficult. Any material that blocks air flow does this as well, even bugnets or waterproof/breathable fabric... ever tried to hike in waterproof/breathable rain gear when it is 70 degrees outside or slept in a small space that was enclosed with a bugnet when it is 80 degrees and stagnet air? They don't seem all that breathable in those conditions. In a hammock you don't want to use insulation when it is 80 degrees, if you do you are probably going to sweat, especially if the insulation is also a vapor barrier. When the temperatures drop, then use the insulation and you won't sweat as much if at all. Most of the time issues like this can be handled in an appropriate way such that they aren't particularly a problem... or they can be handled in an inappropriate way that makes them a problem.

Youngblood

Just Jeff
08-18-2005, 02:52
I don't recall being all that hot when I sweated through my bag, actually. I was comfortable, then I rolled over a bit and was freezing as the cold air hit my wet back (through the bag). There wasn't any sweat on my belly or head...just like you can get cold on the bottom and hot on the top if you don't have the right kind of insulation, it seems.

In my case I was in a two-layer hammock, so I had a layer of untreated RN between my pad and bag.

I think it would have worked better if I had used the bag as a quilt and laid directly on the hammock...maybe I'll make me a SPE and try the pad route again...

Youngblood
08-18-2005, 07:34
If you were wet it was from your perspiration. The perspiration was enough that your wicking system couldn't evaporate it fast enough to keep you from getting a chill from evaporative cooling when your damp back was suddenly exposed to the cold air. That is not too unusual when sleeping on a vapor barrier when you are nice 'n toasty and stayed lying on your back for a pretty good while.

Did you have a puddle of water or get your sleeping bag wet? And when you got chilled were you out of your sleeping bag? Perspiration is unquestionably less of a problem when you are not sleeping on a vapor barrier. I would imagine for some people it is a bigger concern than for other people and different enviroments may also play a big role. In any case, if you are sleeping on a vapor barrier any insensible perspiration tends to collect as moisture when it hits the vapor barrier. The rate of perspiration (sensible or insensible) is a function of how warm you are... and yes one part of your body can be cold while another part can be hot and sweaty. In any case, it is best to manage moisture buildup due to perspiration using a non-absorbant wicking material and to avoid over-heating. It is easy enough to use a good wicking material, you don't have to do anything, the material does that. Now, avoiding over-heating is something that requires intervention on your part. It is more difficult to vent when you are wrapped with too much insulation and cannot easily vent to reduce the overheating effect. A vapor barrier is nice when it is real cold since it adds a significant amount of heat retention (I sometimes use a vapor barrier vest made of a plastic trash bag in cold weather) but it is not a good thing when you are too hot.

Insulation should be used wisely, it is not one of those things were if a little is good for you then a whole lot should be great. You want to use an appropriate amount or be able to adequately vent to avoid overheating... I pity the people that use 0 degree bags when it is 50 degrees because they are going to have a heck of a time staying comfortable.

Youngblood

peter_pan
08-18-2005, 09:16
Ratbert,

If you sleep directly on closed cell pads you will sweat, it will eventually form mini pools and you will awake...if you say, ah ha, "I'll keep half my bag under me to absorb the sweat", realize on a long section the Funk Factor will go up...depending on each person's chemestry some will go way up...also you will carry the daily increasing Water/sweat accumulation in the bag as increased weight.

CC pad problems are exaccerbated in hammocks because the pad is curved around you and held in near perfect contact with your body by the hammock bottom and sides... An SPE made of silnyl will have the same issues, probably worse as it won't have the little surface craters of the CC pad.

If you find the hammock provides a quantum leap in comfort over the ground, know that there is another quantum leap in comfort available to those that find breathable, wind proof solutions that do not require any thing in the hammock except themselves and a top quilt...Ed Speer pioneered out-side insulation with the Speer Pea Pod for a reason...outside insulation is the best approach for comfort and warmth...Quilts tend to optimize the best of warmth and comfort with lighter weight, less bulk and greater flexibility.

These Speer Pea Pod and JRB Under Quilt solutions are available in models and combinations that provide comfort below 0 degrees....just like your ground sytem, you need to get the true winter models or layer up lighter models....Point here is that, there is no need to tent in the winter if you prefer a hammock.

The SPE is clearly a lower cost approach that allow the hiker who still wants to sleep in shelters or on the ground a viable pad solution for the hammock.

Just my biased .02 worth.

Pan

trippclark
08-18-2005, 09:52
Just my biased .02 worth.

Pan

Pan,

You may be biased, but I think you are right. I have not used the SPE, but it does appear to be a significant improvement on the pad in the hammock idea which I struggled with for several months. Once I made the switch (and the not insignificant investment) to the Peapod and the JRB Nest for my Speer and Hennessy Hammocks, I was VERY happy that I did! Tomorrow may bring other solutions, but for now it seems that the underquilt/peapod solution is the best out there . . . with the SPE probably being the best "low cost" solution for folks not ready to shell out the $$ for a Peapod or Nest.

Tripp

Just Jeff
08-18-2005, 10:47
Well said, Trippclark and Pan.

Youngblood, it was the insensible perspiration that soaked my bag. I was never really hot enough to "sweat" that much. No other significant moisture that night, and I was still in my bag...when I rolled over, the cold air hit the wet spot and chilled me pretty quickly. Like I said, it might make a difference if I use a quilt and sleep directly on the SPE.

Youngblood
08-18-2005, 13:30
I agree with most all of that and will point out that there is no silnylon on the SPE, for the reason Pan brought up... it wouldn't help very much with perspiration if it did. Thanks for pointing that out, especially for folks considering making their own versions.

Youngblood

stickman
08-18-2005, 17:25
I don't have a Speer but love my HH and JRB Nest. My question is, how easy is it to fit the Nest to the Speer? Are any modifications necessary?


Stickman

Youngblood
08-18-2005, 18:41
Well said, Trippclark and Pan.

Youngblood, it was the insensible perspiration that soaked my bag. I was never really hot enough to "sweat" that much. No other significant moisture that night, and I was still in my bag...when I rolled over, the cold air hit the wet spot and chilled me pretty quickly. Like I said, it might make a difference if I use a quilt and sleep directly on the SPE.
Jeff,

I don't know what else to tell you except it has been my life long experience that perspiration occurs when I am too hot and that it is one of the bodies mechanisms to cool itself. I have used foam pads that act as vapor barriers in hammocks where I used a non absorbant wicking fabric between me and the pad without having moisture problems for more nights that I would venture to guess. But, I understand the problems with overheating, know how to reduce my insulation and I generally wake up during the night for nature breaks.

A quick google search for perspiration and body cooling produced this site: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/may98/893517341.Gb.r.html , perhaps it can explain what causes insensible perspiration to you better than I have been able to. I think you will find that it occurs when your body is too hot and needs to cool off... so my experience is when I have done that and used wicking material I haven't had problems. But if you have problems, by all means use something else that solves your problem, I would if I always got wet from perspiration.

Youngblood

Just Jeff
08-18-2005, 19:37
IIRC, insensible perspiration occurs to keep your skin at a comfortable humidity level no matter what the ambient temp is. Therefore, moisture in a sleeping bag doesn't necessarily have to do with overheating.

If you restrict this perspiration's ability to evaporate, your body will stop producing it if the skin stays at a comfortable humidity level (the principal behind VBLs, and I'm sure you're aware). In my case, my skin couldn't stay at the comfortable humidity level because my bag kept absorbing the moisture...so my body kept producing it. That's why I think it might make a difference if I sleep directly on the DWR with no bag in between.

But it looks like we've hijacked this thread with technical stuff!

Just Jeff
08-18-2005, 20:15
Stickman,

The JRB slaps right onto the Speer. Depending on your sag, you might have to find a way to connect the ladder loops to the hammock (or make yourself a ridgeline and run a shock cord to it), but I've used it on several of my Speer-types with no modifications at all.

stag3
08-18-2005, 22:25
Ratbert,

The problem of the T'rest pad sliding is easy to fix. I got some of the mid weight no slip shelf paper at WalMart-about $5. This looks like an open weave with a sticky coating. I glued four pieces to the underside, about equally spaced, 4"x6' each. Now, the T'rest does not move at all. The total weight addition is about 1 oz.

Stag3

sheldon
08-19-2005, 10:45
Go ahead and try what you got and see how it works for you, it may go fine.

Closed cell pads tend to not let you slide around easily on them (too much friction, I suppose). In the process (sometimes it seems like a wrestling match) of getting yourself properly positioned on them they tend to scoot around against the nylon fabric of the hammock bed where you don't want them. Maybe you can master a technique. They are also a vapor barrier and if you perspire the moisture collects there and wets whatever is in contact with them (that can be a problem if it is your sleeping bag). If a rectangular pad is wide enough to cover your shoulders and hips it sometimes tends to buckle in the area of your waist because of all the compound bends.
Well, I tried my HH for the first time with an REI CCF pad yesterday, and I'm only thankful that I did this in the woods away from anyone else. What a disaster! First, every time I got in the hammock after tying off it slipped down the tree trunks, I'm only 155lbs. so I don't think I'm too heavy to use one. Not only did my butt end up an inch or two from the ground, but my pad did exactly what you all predicted, bunched up, slid around and just generally made it impossible to get it under me. Ah the stream of invective flowed over and around the hammock, and though it made me feel better, I could never get the hammock set up properly or get anything close to comfortable in it. When I did get in it, I found the hammock fabric wrapped around me (when I tossed the pad away) and between the fabric and the bug netting, it was not very breathable. The temps were in the low 80's and I was in the shade. Anyone care to critique why my hammock kept slipping and why I could not get comfortable? I did use the recommended figure 8 knot and it does not appear that the rope slipped, but that the tree-huggers slid down the trunk a bit. I think I could have done better if I dumped the tree-huggers but I'm not interested in trashing trees just so I can "hang out". HELP!!!

Footslogger
08-19-2005, 10:57
[QUOTE=Youngblood]

Well, I tried my HH for the first time with an REI CCF pad yesterday, and I'm only thankful that I did this in the woods away from anyone else.===========================================
Don't feel like the lone ranger here. Pretty much everyone who has ever used a hammock had an initial disaster or two ...or three. There is a learning curve. First couple times I took mine out in the woods I woke up in the morning with my butt scraping the ground.

First question I have is ...how big were the trees you used to tie off the hammock and did they have really smooth bark ?? My initial thought is that you may have tied off too low to the ground and there wasn't enough tension in the hammock lines.

That is one of the main reasons I dumped the original tree hugger straps and came up with my own system. It allows me to tie off the hammock in a fairly snugly and then tighten each end individually to get a good and tight pitch. The second reason for going with my own approach is that, at least for me, it's comes down quicker in the morning.

As far as the mat slippage goes, you just need to keep experimenting. I personally use a 3/4 ultralight thermarest and only inflate it about half way. Reason I carry the thermarest is that on a distance hike I often find myself in a shelter or two and want that type of pad on the shelter floor (fully inflated).

There are loads of people on Whitblaze with more hammock experience and expertise than I ...but those are my initial thoughts on your post.

'Slogger

Youngblood
08-19-2005, 11:05
sheldon,

Hammocks are different and there is a learning curve... sometimes folks that went through the learning curve a while back forget that. (For what it is worth, I had to look up 'invective'... so I learned something new this morning.) You've probably figured that you need to take it one step at a time, first learn the knots, then how to attach to trees, how to get it centered and level, etc. It would be nice if you could get a live demo but I can't help you out with that... Sarge has put together a lot of helpful info over the years on his site about hammocks and the Hennessy Hammock in particular. Take a look at this and see if it helps: http://hikinghq.net/hammock/hammock3.html .

Youngblood

trippclark
08-19-2005, 11:13
I don't have a Speer but love my HH and JRB Nest. My question is, how easy is it to fit the Nest to the Speer? Are any modifications necessary?


Stickman

No modifications needed. It works fine.

Just Jeff
08-19-2005, 12:05
If you can wrap the huggers all the way around the tree, instead of just around the back side, it creates more friction. Some trees are too big for that, though.

Otherwise, you can put it around the tree and thread one end of the treehugger through the loop on the other end, making a "noose", and tie the hammock to the free end of the hugger. You'll need to use some kind of hitch instead of the figure 8 lashing, but it'll help with the sliding on smooth-barked trees.

Also, for the HH you can tighten the hammock until it's horizontal. Don't cinch down so tight you stretch the ridgeline, but pull it tight.

rpettit
08-19-2005, 13:25
Otherwise, you can put it around the tree and thread one end of the treehugger through the loop on the other end, making a "noose", and tie the hammock to the free end of the hugger. You'll need to use some kind of hitch instead of the figure 8 lashing, but it'll help with the sliding on smooth-barked trees.

Why couldn't you use the figure 8 lashing technique? I have often found myself in a similiar situation, trees to big to wrap around completely, the "noose" idea sounds like it would solve the problem.

Just Jeff
08-25-2005, 12:03
Youngblood (et al.),

Ah...now it comes into focus. :p

I slept in a homemade SPE for the first time last night. I made it from DWR for a 19" pad with 5" wings on each side. Wings were 18" long, and with a small space between them covered the area from my shoulders almost to my knees.

I used a homemade Speer-type and slept in a cotton shirt so I could easily sense any moisture buildup. I used a quilt, so only the DWR and T-shirt were between me and the pad. It got down to ~50F last night, not much wind to speak of, and a very little bit of drizzle...I slept without a tarp.

I like it. I did feel a little bit of clamminess that I don't get with the underquilt, but I'm sure the cotton shirt exacerbated that. I wasn't overheated...perfect comfort temperature-wise all night once I got settled. Using a 19" pad meant it didn't buckle much...I found a buckle or two when searching for it with my hands, but I couldn't even feel any discomfort from it. I slept on my back and side with no problems.

What I liked:
- It held the hammock open nice and wide
- CCF is waterproof and the DWR is almost waterproof. Underquilt is not.
- No worries about air gaps and cold spots under the hammock. You're either on the pad or you're not.
- I think the weight would come in just under an underquilt with suspension system (22oz), but I haven't weighed it yet.
- It's a lot more comfortable on the wallet...$40+pad for SPE vs $200 for the underquilt.
- It preserves your ability to cowboy camp or stay in a shelter (even though I don't like shelters, there have been a few times I would have liked to cowboy camp). Or even go to ground, though I don't ever plan to be in a position to have to do that from the cold.

What I didn't like:
- It needed a bit more fidgeting than an underquilt to get comfortable. This may be a learning curve thing, though. The underquilt has a steeper learning curve than the SPE, though...the SPE is just plug and play.
- It wasn't as comfortable as an underquilt. The clamminess might be reduced with a synthetic T-shirt, but sleeping on a pad still isn't as comfortable as being directly on the hammock, IMO.
- You still have to worry about staying on the pad. One time I rolled over and my back got cold because it was off the pad. With the SPE and quilt, it was easy to slide back on, but it still woke me up for a second. It happened again when my knee touched the hammock. I'm not a heavy sleeper so waking up a time or two isn't really out of the ordinary for me.
- The pad is bulkier to pack than the underquilt.
- Since it doesn't fit in the snakeskins, setup took a bit longer...probably only a minute or so, though. Minor issue.
- It's a bit less flexible than the underquilt. You can adjust the underquilt's insulation performance in a few ways (shaking the down around, loosening the drawstrings, etc). With a SPE, it's with the pad or without...no in-between. Could be an issue depending on environment...wasn't an issue last night.

In short, using the SPE and quilt performed a lot better than my last tests with a sleeping bag and CCF pad. I would recommend a SPE over and underquilt if:
- Budget is an issue
- You want to preserve your ability to sleep on the ground or in shelters. Maybe you'll be hiking in areas where you may not have trees, like the desert or above timber line, or you want to stay in shelters sometimes. This is a big issue for some people.

I'd recommend an underquilt if:
- You can afford to pay for the comfort
- You know you'll be in a hammock with no need to go to ground

Further testing:
- I want to see how it works in a HH
- I want to see how it works in different environments - humidity level and temperature variation should have an impact

Of note, I haven't tested a PeaPod, which I think would perform similar to an underquilt. I know Ed uses PeaPods with pads inside...should get to some pretty low temps that way.

Jeff

Just Jeff
08-25-2005, 19:09
Why couldn't you use the figure 8 lashing technique? I have often found myself in a similiar situation, trees to big to wrap around completely, the "noose" idea sounds like it would solve the problem.
Sorry...just saw this post.

For the figure-8 lash, you need another "layer" of rope or webbing to wrap the free end through. If you lash right to the webbing loop, the wraps on one side of the 8 will slip to the other side of the loop when you load it.

I've used a modified trucker's hitch with the webbing loop as the bight...works with some fidgeting.