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Just Bill
10-14-2013, 16:49
The answer for me- I don't. It's pretty hard to eat that much stuff, even less fun to carry it. So, inspired by Malto, but uninspired by crystal light flavoring, and making my own electrolyte mix, I finally broke down and got some malto to play with. My wife wanted some whey protein to play with too. So I got some from Amazon, in a slightly more manageable experiemental size of 8 lbs of Malto and 5lbs of Whey Protien Isolate- name brand Now Sports.
24454

As you can see, I came up with three versions- Morning, Midday and Night- switching from Malto, 50/50, and Whey Protein. I hate crystal light, needed the calories anyway, was packing the Gatorade anyway- so it seemed like the perfect combo. I found the citrus flavors go best with the Malto, and the fruity flavors go best with the Whey. Malto has no flavor- so it really goes with anything, but the Whey has a distinct dairy (egg/milk/cheese) flavor, since it's derived from the cheese making process. Combining it with fruity flavored Gatorade gives you a "smoothie" sort of taste. I didn't have Orange around, but that would probably taste like a creamsicle.

24455
Best of all, this sandwich sized package, including packaging weighs a hair over 11 ounces and provides a whopping 1240 of good drinkable calories- about a quarter of that 5000 calorie goal. While not quite 125 cal/oz, the tradeoff is low bulk, good taste, easy to mix (mostly). The whey gets a little clumpy. The Malto and Gatorade pour into a small mouth waterbottle from the fold and close sandwich bags no problem, but the mixes with the whey are a little trickier. The whey takes a little longer to dissolve, but no more than 20 minutes or so. I found myself mixing the nighttime mix while I set up camp and chugging it just before bed.

Each recipe is for a one liter bottle. If you find the calorie bomb, or the taste too strong, you can always split the mix into two bottles. If you aren't on a calorie sucking pace or long distance hike- you can also cut the recipe in half- yielding a six ounce or so 620 calories- a hair under 25% of a 3000 calorie diet.

Another option is to leave the midday mix at home; 840 calories. This would give you the energy of the Malto in the morning, and the recovery benefits of the protein at night.

http://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-Carbo-Gain-Pounds/dp/B0013OUNRM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381783741&sr=8-1&keywords=now+foods+carbo+gain

Namtrag
10-14-2013, 17:15
Original Muscle Milk would be great in that mix as well. Would have the whey, plus a lot of carbs and healthy fat. I am amazed coming from a bodybuilding background, that so many posts about what to eat when hiking focus almost solely on starchy carbs and fat, but hardly any mention of protein.

Malto
10-14-2013, 18:50
Does your night mix still use Malto or is it straight protein? I have heard that a 500 calorie carb dose at days end is recommended for recovery of glycogen levels. Have you tried this on a long day yet?

Dogwood
10-14-2013, 20:15
Have you tried unsweetened coconut water? It has pretty good electrolytes and provides for quick electrolyte absoption by the body. It can be bought in dry packages under names like Coco Hydro. I like saying that Coco Hyyydro. It mixes well with other drink mixes. Pineapple is my favorite. I've been adding it here and there into resupply boxes on hot long distance hikes.

Just Bill
10-14-2013, 20:17
Straight Whey at the end of the day (protein). Although keep in mind they are all mixed with Gatorade, so there is still a decent carb intake no matter the mix. My thinking was that after those interviews with the nutritionist (can't find the post but I know many of you remember it)- that a large amount of protein was needed in general. I know most weight lifters and the like use the whey as an "after" supplement, so that's why it ended up later in the day. In addition- I typically am getting a (mostly) carb based dinner of around that size a few hours before bed.

Typical day- Oatmeal I posted earlier- snacks and morning mix. Full Lunch (either more oatmeal or a dinner), snacks and midday mix. Dinner (full dinner, mostly carb based)- hike a few more hours- slam the protein mix. Seemed to work pretty well so far, I think my heavily carb based diet takes care of the carb loading/glycogen replenishment.

Always up for suggestions-
The maltodextrin is great. Thanks Malto! I highly recommend that across the board. No complaints and I think it will be a staple for me from now on.

I could see myself getting tired of the Whey, or needing to dilute it to keep drinking it. From a pure energy and calories standpoint I think going with the morning mix all day would be fine- giving you almost 1500 calories of drinks. But the goal was to supplement my protein intake. Another option would be to spread the whey out evenly and make a single mix for the day. I think the parts and pieces are good so to speak- maybe the order or delivery needs to be played with.

I liked the delivery and packaging- compact, easy to transfer to my side pouch and keep the calories moving with little effort. I can find at least 6 or 7 flavors of powdered Gatorade at my local grocery stores. If you wanted to cut it even smaller- you can get the G2 powder, but why substitute calories you need for synthetic sweetners you don't.

Namtrag- While Muscle milk and others would be fine, they get pricy- the main component is the whey anyhow. I also liked the fruity flavors over the milk taste and on a hot day I found those mixes tough to drink.

Dogwood
10-14-2013, 20:29
About 20% of your total daily cals from protein is often the guideline given for long distance high mileage per day hikers.

Dogwood
10-14-2013, 20:30
You can mix various forms of whey protein isolate into b-fasts and dinners too. Some whey protein isolates are flavored.

Just Bill
10-14-2013, 20:59
Yar- on all of it my friend, although at this point my dinners are so bulky I wouldn't want to pack anything else in, that's why I'm trying to get to 25% liquid.
Malto would probably mix well with the Coco Hydroooo toooooo.

hobbs
10-14-2013, 21:09
I know I add whey protein to granola.But I never thought to add it to Gatorade..

Hill Ape
10-14-2013, 21:48
mmmkay, this may or may not offend, but the product is real. Up Your Mass

tastes like cake batter, and with a name like that!

Just Bill
10-14-2013, 22:10
110 calories an ounce. While I can't say I can pronounce half the items- looks like you could mix NIDO, Whey, and Malto together and have the same thing. Chew three or four multivitamins with it and you're covered.

Whatever works for ya though- although are you only allowed to drink it in Massachusetts or can you drink it on the way to there but not once you pass it? Do you take it rectally? Weight lifters do strange things. Would you fill your sawyer squeeze bag and deliver it that way? I'm confussed.

Rasty
10-14-2013, 22:19
110 calories an ounce. While I can't say I can pronounce half the items- looks like you could mix NIDO, Whey, and Malto together and have the same thing. Chew three or four multivitamins with it and you're covered.

Whatever works for ya though- although are you only allowed to drink it in Massachusetts or can you drink it on the way to there but not once you pass it? Do you take it rectally? Weight lifters do strange things. Would you fill your sawyer squeeze bag and deliver it that way? I'm confussed.

Remember my breakfast smoothie from the other thread?

Just Bill
10-14-2013, 22:21
Remember my breakfast smoothie from the other thread?
You take that wrecktally?

Rasty
10-14-2013, 22:25
You take that wrecktally?

In reverse

Just Bill
10-14-2013, 22:28
That makes a surprising amount of good sense.

oldwetherman
10-14-2013, 23:49
I put a package of Carnation instant breakfast into everything I cook and a high percentage of everything I drink. A really good thing about it is that you can find it in just about every trail town. Even the Dollar General Stores in the small towns stock it. The different flavors are a nice touch too. Check out the baby food department of the grocery stores too. They have a great selection of dehydrated fruits that are great in instant oatmeal. Quaker also now has instant oatmeal with nuts in it that comes in a variety of great flavors. It's packed in a small cardboard cup but I just repackaged it in a quart freezer bag to save space. The baby food section also has a great selection of dehydrated vegetables that are a nice touch in ramen, pasta sides, etc.

Hill Ape
10-15-2013, 00:07
anyone remember the SNL bit about colon blow cereal, dunno why, but this thread reminds me of that. yall mix up your protein and squirt it anywhere that floats your boat, I mix it with oatmeal and eat it, the normal way. orally, and I swallow, like a man.

Malto
10-15-2013, 07:39
110 calories an ounce. While I can't say I can pronounce half the items- looks like you could mix NIDO, Whey, and Malto together and have the same thing. Chew three or four multivitamins with it and you're covered.

Whatever works for ya though- although are you only allowed to drink it in Massachusetts or can you drink it on the way to there but not once you pass it? Do you take it rectally? Weight lifters do strange things. Would you fill your sawyer squeeze bag and deliver it that way? I'm confussed.

Just remember...... You have to drink this day after day after day after day. That is why I went from a protein/Malto mix to a straight Malto mix with yummy crystal light. :) I was having to hold my nose as I drink my recovery mix. Decided there was no way I could do that for 98 straight days. Bottom line, make sure it is yummy. How about Malto with ice tea mix. Good new fashioned Malto sweet tea. I will be trying that one.

geomaniac
10-15-2013, 16:26
Ok..ive been following this thread and have one question...What is this Malto stuff? I tried google and found nothing but malto-meal.

geomaniac
10-15-2013, 16:30
Ok..ive been following this thread and have one question...What is this Malto stuff? I tried google and found nothing but malto-meal.

Never mind..I just went to amazon and did a Malto search and found it..

Rolls Kanardly
10-15-2013, 16:56
I plan on carrying some Whey Protein, 1 scoop = 160 calories with 30g of protein for my coffee in the morning for a little extra boost on the protein. I need from a 100g to 180g of protein so an extra hit a day may stop the negative flow of protein. Chocolate is good, vanilla is okay.
Rolls Kanardly

The Solemates
10-15-2013, 18:00
my pops is a triathlete. he always wears a monitor while running or riding the bike. he also always monitors his caloric intake every single day of his life with some app he bought. has any food and/or restaurant imaginable. its an obsession. he went on a bike ride the other day and burned 12,000 calories. his caloric intake for the day was 8,000 calories, 5,500 of which were in one sitting at olive garden once the ride was over. its easy to eat 5000 calories a day if you try hard enough :)

Odd Man Out
10-15-2013, 18:22
I'm confused why a threat about trying to pack on calories would talk about using Crystal Light, which is artificially sweetened with zero-calorie sweeteners. What about using KoolAid mix (original) and sugar? Same effect, with calories?

Rasty
10-15-2013, 18:39
I'm confused why a threat about trying to pack on calories would talk about using Crystal Light, which is artificially sweetened with zero-calorie sweeteners. What about using KoolAid mix (original) and sugar? Same effect, with calories?

The crystal light adds flavor so you can choke down the whey/malto mixes when your stomach is telling you it doesn't want it. The additional sugar is really needed.

Malto
10-15-2013, 18:50
I'm confused why a threat about trying to pack on calories would talk about using Crystal Light, which is artificially sweetened with zero-calorie sweeteners. What about using KoolAid mix (original) and sugar? Same effect, with calories?

For flavor only. I also mix stronger concentration Malto mixes with unsweetened Koolaid to make it less sweet than it would be with crystal light. I can mix up 600 calories per liter using crystal light but can hit over 1000 calories per liter by using unsweetened Koolaid.

Just Bill
10-15-2013, 22:41
For those skeptics out there- while we're all a little confussed about the whey- If you haven't tried MALTOdextrin- I strongly recommend it. It mixes basically like sugar, fast, easy, with a slightly sweet but almost totally unnoticeable taste. It packs well and delivers lots of calories that are better for you than sugar. While it has a chemically and artificial sounding name- it's not.

As mentioned- the man- Malto- mixes his original recipe with just crystal light for flavor to pack in the maximum malto per ounce.
I mix it with Gatorade, mainly because I am too lazy to make my own electrolyte mix- but also because I like drinking it and can get powdered in seven flavors.
YOU- could mix it with anything- even just water- it tastes fine on it's own and won't effect whatever you mix it into.

Iced tea sounds good Malto!

map man
10-16-2013, 22:05
There are two main techniques for getting the calorie count up while keeping the weight of this food you have to carry down. One, up the percentage of fat you are consuming; two, keep the moisture content in the foods down (water has no calories). A popular way that backpackers keep the moisture content down is to carry dehydrated meals and rehydrate them with hot water. Also, there is the method discussed in this thread, bringing powdered proteins (whey, etc.) and carbs (maltodextrine, etc.) and drinking them down mixed with water or other liquid.

I used to carry a home made mix of pea protein, soy protein and maltodextrine and mixed it with water and drank it down (the pea protein had some vanilla flavoring and that was enough to make it tasty enough to get down). I recently stopped doing this because I got tired of shaking up the drink mix and rinsing out the container I drank it in a few times a day.

On a two week trip in the southern Appalachians this spring I managed to eat two pounds of food a day with 4200 calories without having to rehydrate anything. And I managed to hike 15 miles a day on that diet and for the first time lost NO weight on the hike. I did it by eating a lot of salted nuts (high fat and little moisture) and some over-sized dark chocolate chips (also high fat and little moisture). And then I ate a couple different brands of bars, some high protein, some more balanced. These were "Organic Food Bar" brand bars and Clif Builder Bars and regular Clif Bars. The Clif Bars were not real high calorie (100 calories per ounce) but the other brand had a fair amount of healthy fat in them and came in at 125 calories per ounce, which is pretty high for a bar.

I ate a half pound of food for breakfast, another half pound for dinner, and ate a pound of food during the day by snacking once an hour or so on a bar or a couple ounces of nuts. This slow drip system worked out very well for me, and I suspect I was able to digest the calories more efficiently than if I was following the standard thru-hiker practice of "getting by" while hiking between resupplies and then gorging for a day or two in trail towns.

Anyway, Just Bill, since you hike more miles per day than I do you would probably need more calories than I do (like the 5,000 you mention in the title of the thread). I just wanted to share some thoughts on eating on the trail -- stuff that seems to be working for me after a slow evolution over many years of hiking.

Just Bill
10-16-2013, 22:29
Thanks Map Man- I've been working hard on proportions of food. I'm not always on high octane trips and I am trying to come up with a workable system. Food's gotta be the toughest, and likely a lifelong project. Your calculating mind may like the exercise too. I've been working around a 25% drinkable, 30% traditional breakfast lunch dinner- usually at least one of them hot, and 40% snacks. On lower cal trips (3000 or so) that scale might slide to thirds by decreasing calories in the snacks.
I put up that oatmeal recipe mainly because that seemed to be a good anchor for me over the last year or so- 700 calorie meal with good calorie breakdown as you suggest- high fat, decent protein, good carbs, low sugar minimum moisture. Most of the meals I have are in the 500-700 calorie range. I seem to hit on average 500, 600, and 700- 1800 calories there puts me at 36%, 1200 or so calories of drinks covers 25%. I can always skip a lunch or a drink pack for a shorter trip, and reduce snacks. Basically build the 5000 cal system and work backwards. 5000 seems to be the amount even for an average long distance hiker. (after the first week to month)

On my LT hike, including packaging I was able to get 5000-5500 calories into a 2lb 5 ounce package per day- taking up about 1.5L of space. A 3000 calorie pack I made for fun came in around 1.5lb and a liter. The oatmeal and the powders form two key components. Still looking for more.

Ultimately I agree with your stated and achieved goal- drip in the calories, enjoy what you eat, eat healthy- and not lose weight. Well done!

OzJacko
10-17-2013, 07:01
The answer for me- I don't. It's pretty hard to eat that much stuff, even less fun to carry it. So, inspired by Malto, but uninspired by crystal light flavoring, and making my own electrolyte mix, I finally broke down and got some malto to play with. My wife wanted some whey protein to play with too. So I got some from Amazon, in a slightly more manageable experiemental size of 8 lbs of Malto and 5lbs of Whey Protien Isolate- name brand Now Sports.
24454

As you can see, I came up with three versions- Morning, Midday and Night- switching from Malto, 50/50, and Whey Protein. I hate crystal light, needed the calories anyway, was packing the Gatorade anyway- so it seemed like the perfect combo. I found the citrus flavors go best with the Malto, and the fruity flavors go best with the Whey. Malto has no flavor- so it really goes with anything, but the Whey has a distinct dairy (egg/milk/cheese) flavor, since it's derived from the cheese making process. Combining it with fruity flavored Gatorade gives you a "smoothie" sort of taste. I didn't have Orange around, but that would probably taste like a creamsicle.

24455
Best of all, this sandwich sized package, including packaging weighs a hair over 11 ounces and provides a whopping 1240 of good drinkable calories- about a quarter of that 5000 calorie goal. While not quite 125 cal/oz, the tradeoff is low bulk, good taste, easy to mix (mostly). The whey gets a little clumpy. The Malto and Gatorade pour into a small mouth waterbottle from the fold and close sandwich bags no problem, but the mixes with the whey are a little trickier. The whey takes a little longer to dissolve, but no more than 20 minutes or so. I found myself mixing the nighttime mix while I set up camp and chugging it just before bed.

Each recipe is for a one liter bottle. If you find the calorie bomb, or the taste too strong, you can always split the mix into two bottles. If you aren't on a calorie sucking pace or long distance hike- you can also cut the recipe in half- yielding a six ounce or so 620 calories- a hair under 25% of a 3000 calorie diet.

Another option is to leave the midday mix at home; 840 calories. This would give you the energy of the Malto in the morning, and the recovery benefits of the protein at night.

http://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-Carbo-Gain-Pounds/dp/B0013OUNRM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381783741&sr=8-1&keywords=now+foods+carbo+gain

Sirloin.:D

Just Bill
10-17-2013, 09:13
Sirloin.:D
I eat that too- 2451924520

Rasty
10-17-2013, 23:35
I eat that too- 2451924520

Cured?....

Hill Ape
10-18-2013, 00:36
Cured?.... looks infected to me, dead even

Just Bill
10-18-2013, 09:12
That is my top secret beef jerky. It is a small butcher shop in the middle of nowhere. Beef Jerky is the wrong word- they call it slab jerky. After curing the slabs are up to 1 1/4" thick and the biggest slab I've seen was 2'x4'. (2'x3' and 1.5'x2' are more common) Can you imagine buying a piece of jerky the size and thickness of a quarter sheet of plywood? I can. I have purchased up to $600 at a crack- because it is crack- and you can't stop. Been hiking with it for over twenty years. In the store it's $16 a pound or so- cheaper than some gas station jerky- but immensely better.

They do finally sell by mail, but they don't sell the slabs (they slice them into 1" strips for shipping). I will talk to him before I reveal the secret- he is locally very busy and opened the mail order to service customers that drive up to eight hours away to buy from him so I'm not sure if he's up for the volume. I drive nearly 3 hours each way. Truckers come in and buy $500 bucks worth and resell it to other truckers. I used to drive up and sell it back home as well.

And yes- it is often that thick, it is often "rare" and tastes like a well made steak.

It's crack, crack I tell you.

imscotty
10-18-2013, 09:22
I eat that too- 2451924520

Just Bill - Now that I want to try. Hope you share your secret. How long have you been able to keep this for?

Wise Old Owl
02-22-2014, 21:23
I put a package of Carnation instant breakfast into everything I cook and a high percentage of everything I drink. A really good thing about it is that you can find it in just about every trail town. Even the Dollar General Stores in the small towns stock it. The different flavors are a nice touch too. Check out the baby food department of the grocery stores too. They have a great selection of dehydrated fruits that are great in instant oatmeal. Quaker also now has instant oatmeal with nuts in it that comes in a variety of great flavors. It's packed in a small cardboard cup but I just repackaged it in a quart freezer bag to save space. The baby food section also has a great selection of dehydrated vegetables that are a nice touch in ramen, pasta sides, etc.

Carnation isn't a good choice for the trail it was replaced a long time ago with Nestle Nido. I got my butt handed to me about the new Quaker stuff and it contains a better steel cut oatmeal that has better flavor, but folks are addicted to the sub par cardboard packets. So I agree with you there - one of the few over packaged items I really like.


That is my top secret beef jerky. It is a small butcher shop in the middle of nowhere. Beef Jerky is the wrong word- they call it slab jerky. After curing the slabs are up to 1 1/4" thick and the biggest slab I've seen was 2'x4'. (2'x3' and 1.5'x2' are more common) Can you imagine buying a piece of jerky the size and thickness of a quarter sheet of plywood? I can. I have purchased up to $600 at a crack- because it is crack- and you can't stop. Been hiking with it for over twenty years. In the store it's $16 a pound or so- cheaper than some gas station jerky- but immensely better.

They do finally sell by mail, but they don't sell the slabs (they slice them into 1" strips for shipping). I will talk to him before I reveal the secret- he is locally very busy and opened the mail order to service customers that drive up to eight hours away to buy from him so I'm not sure if he's up for the volume. I drive nearly 3 hours each way. Truckers come in and buy $500 bucks worth and resell it to other truckers. I used to drive up and sell it back home as well.

And yes- it is often that thick, it is often "rare" and tastes like a well made steak.

It's crack, crack I tell you.

Yes thanks, you can use steak but real steak (Hi end) is incredibly marbled and that is what you are paying for... good fats. Real fat is pure energy, when we treat meat into jerky such as chemical - using vinegar (curing) or heat (melting) or real smoke (bacterial barrier)the fats participate in a change. - sugars and whatever else overwhelms the pancreas and causes issues...Good fats include anything that doesn't solidify at room temp. Cooking reduces the need for a gut, it delivers high energy and calories in a small package that is easily digested... (Please do not PM) that' Nat Geo folks These powders are highly processed,,, I work with a group of people that make some important muscle nutrition products... I am not against this - I am intrigued.


Just Bill - Now that I want to try. Hope you share your secret. How long have you been able to keep this for?

6 months.

bamboo bob
02-22-2014, 21:42
I may burn 5000 calories but on the trail I doubt I eat more than 3000 if that. Pack it on in town and expect to come home skinnier. Lost 45 pounds on the PCT and 40 on the AT. Most of it in the first six weeks I think.

Feral Bill
02-22-2014, 21:54
A couple dozen Snickers would do the trick, no?

squeezebox
02-23-2014, 00:44
How does baby formula compare to nido, whey powder, etc?

Dogwood
02-23-2014, 03:58
Maltodextrin is used as a filler, food additive, and sometimes as an artificial sweetener(some debate arises whether it's truly artificial though). It's also used by those putting out large amounts of energy and want a quick form of replacement energy. Maltodextrin is easily digestible. You get the energy boost rather quickly.

I would be concerned with bloating and flatulence when consuming large quantities of maltodextrin by itself. In very large quantities, as in drinking three times per day, even more so. Mixed with whey protein even greater concern. These were the two results in my use, gas and bloating, when I consumed larger amts of maltodextrin(the amts JB says he consumes) and even more so when combined with whey protein(it has lactose in it). For those who have Celiac Disease or gluten intolerance I would be mindful to source my maltodextrin made from rice, corn, and, I think, potatoes with the resulting maltodextrin being gluten free, particularly if consuming in the larger amts on a reg basis as Just Bill or Malto(the WB User) propose. Maltodextrin(the supplement) is also derived from wheat and barley which are not gluten free and hence the maltodextrin is not gluten free. In the U.S. I think it's derived mainly from corn(compliments of the very politically influential corn commodities market in the U.S.) and potatoes. Maltodextrin can cause insulin spikes too. The way JB consumes it, spaced out three times a day during constant aerobic activity such as thru-hiking, perhaps the insulin spiking isn't much an issue. I don't consume maltodextrin in mass amts anymore, not that I'm saying it can't work for others, but when I did I consumed it I took it pre work out, during the work out, and after for recovery over a longer period.

Depending on the goal, which is typically a source of a complete protein(all the essential aminos), whey isn't all the same. There's plain whey sometimes labeled as sweet dairy whey having a higher fat content then the following two types of common whey products. Then there's whey protein concentrate which goes through a refining process from whey. Further refining we have whey protein isolate. WPI is exclusively what I consume. And even further refining is whey hydrolysate. From what I understand what type of whey one decides on and how it's processed may be of a concern to lactose intolerant individuals. I would also read the labels; some whey products are being mixed with sweetners/sugars.

From my perspective we have an over emphasis here in the U.S. on protein. Part of that derives from Big Ag influences as well as from the body building market(WHEW, has that gotten huge!). But on a hike, and even on a thru-hike, we're not exactly involving our bodies in the same activity as what a body builder does. We don't entirely have the same goals. On a thru-hike I'm maintaining my muscle mass not bulking it up as is the fashion of the body building market. I get plenty of protein on a thru-hike, even being a vegetarian, without having to place so much emphasis on it in my diet. And, when it comes to the typical/avg U.S. diet we normally already consume plenty enough protein.

rocketsocks
02-23-2014, 05:19
This is a real good thread, learning lots here thanks!

...one question though, what are the approximate dimensions of a "cat hole" should one employ this 6,000 calorie diet? I gotta assume the heel kick ain't gonna get it for this one. Thanks...gotta go now!

Snowleopard
02-23-2014, 10:46
Maltodextrin can cause insulin spikes too. The way JB consumes it, spaced out three times a day during constant aerobic activity such as thru-hiking, perhaps the insulin spiking isn't much an issue.
For diabetics (and some others) this could be a serious problem. Maltodextrin's glycemic index is 130, double that of sugar, so more prone to spikes in blood sugar and insulin. It seems like this food system would be very unhealthy long term, maybe OK for the LT but maybe not for the AT.


That is my top secret beef jerky. It is a small butcher shop in the middle of nowhere. Beef Jerky is the wrong word- they call it slab jerky. After curing the slabs are up to 1 1/4" thick and the biggest slab I've seen was 2'x4'. (2'x3' and 1.5'x2' are more common) Can you imagine buying a piece of jerky the size and thickness of a quarter sheet of plywood?
You could use this as a frame sheet for a back pack.

Drybones
02-23-2014, 11:00
I plan on carrying some Whey Protein, 1 scoop = 160 calories with 30g of protein for my coffee in the morning for a little extra boost on the protein. I need from a 100g to 180g of protein so an extra hit a day may stop the negative flow of protein. Chocolate is good, vanilla is okay.
Rolls Kanardly

I put powdered milk in my zip lock with cereal, I wonder how it would work putting whey protein in with it, might give that a try, I work part time at Gold's Gym so I can get a 30% discount on it.

Drybones
02-23-2014, 11:02
This is a real good thread, learning lots here thanks!

...one question though, what are the approximate dimensions of a "cat hole" should one employ this 6,000 calorie diet? I gotta assume the heel kick ain't gonna get it for this one. Thanks...gotta go now!

That's why you need to carry a snow shovel.

fiddlehead
02-23-2014, 11:11
On our long, 5700 mile supported hike, we ate 1 lb of bacon and a dozen eggs every morning for breakfast.
Little Debbies for lunch along with lots of potato chips and then a huge supper every night: sausage, pasta, mostly.
Neither of us lost any weight. Averaged about 27 miles per day except for zeros.

If I'm carrying, it's lots of bear claws for breakfast, pop tarts and little debbies for snacks, potato chips and bean & rice (dehydrated) for lunch (and snickers) and dried hamburger with mac and cheese for dinner. Steak or big burgers when I hit town. Heaviest thing is the bear claws but, man do they taste good!

Drybones
02-23-2014, 11:14
On our long, 5700 mile supported hike, we ate 1 lb of bacon and a dozen eggs every morning for breakfast.
Little Debbies for lunch along with lots of potato chips and then a huge supper every night: sausage, pasta, mostly.
Neither of us lost any weight. Averaged about 27 miles per day except for zeros.

If I'm carrying, it's lots of bear claws for breakfast, pop tarts and little debbies for snacks, potato chips and bean & rice (dehydrated) for lunch (and snickers) and dried hamburger with mac and cheese for dinner. Steak or big burgers when I hit town. Heaviest thing is the bear claws but, man do they taste good!

On that note I'll go cook breakfast.

Pedaling Fool
02-23-2014, 11:21
I said this on another thread, but will repeat it here since the title is so relevant to what's common knowledge.

One of my most important lessons I learned from my hike is just how efficient the body can become at burning/using calories. Aside from developing an awesome cardio base I think a thru-hike is a special endeavor, because more than any other activity it trains our bodies to operate very efficiently, because we must ration our calories. I also believe it's something we should incorporate in our daily lives.

Forget all the talk of how many calories we need to do X-activty; improving upon what the body accomplished on the trail is crucial, IMHO:)

I'd never want to eat 2+ lbs of food per day on a hike (or 5,000 calories); doing so is a waste of an opportunity to create a fat-burning super machine. I generally ate ~1/2 cup of rice per day (with all my dehydrated foodstuff and dash of oil thrown in); two packs of oatmeal; few scoops of peanut butter; a few handfuls of gorp; and whatever type of bar I had.

I still very much remember after eating dinner at night having a very primordial feeling as I looked around for more food -- that's a great experience.


This is an interesting article on how to improve the body's efficiency at storing glycogen and burning fat. In many respect this is what we do as long-distance hikers; of course it's not sustainable, but that's what town visits are for :D http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012...-machine_31034 (http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012/06/nutrition/inside-triathlon-magazine-fat-burning-machine_31034)


Excerpts:


"Torbjorn Sindballe dishes on how he turned his body into a fat-burning machine.

When TorbjÝrn Sindballe was a professional triathlete, he used the most cutting edge science to make himself the best triathlete he could be. His efforts helped him break the bike course record at the Ironman World Championship, as well as place third there in 2007.

The following is Sindballeís personal account of how he attempted to make his body into a fat-burning machine, thereby giving his body the most efficient and limitless fuel available to him. It was originally seen in the Nov/Dec 2010 issue of Inside Triathlon magazine.

A good friend of mine once finished a six-hour ride in the mountains on nothing but pure water. No gels, no energy drinksójust water. And he was not out on a Sunday rideóhe was hammering, riding hard on the ascents and flying down the descents. Can you do that? Or are you already thinking of how many gels and bars you would need to drag along for the ride?"

>
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"When we are very fit, our glycogen stores can fuel a six-hour hard ride in the mountains, similar to the one my friend took. But after the ride, the glycogen tank is almost empty. In comparison, even a rail thin triathlete stores enough fat to fuel five Ironmans in a row.

Fat is an almost unlimited resource, but it comes with two problems: The human brain is a sugar lover, and the rate at which fat is burned for fuel is too slow to support a hard, fast Ironman effort. In other words, your body fuels itself with a combination of glycogen and fat (and a little protein), with fat being the source of fuel that lasts but which cannot be tapped quickly enough to keep you moving fast.

The problem of your brain loving sugar can be solved by taking in enough carbohydrates during exercise. And the fat burning problem can be abated by teaching your body to use fat at a faster rateóthus staving off the depletion of the glycogen tank and allowing you to go faster longer. (Once the glycogen is gone, your body can only tap into its fat for fuel, thus forcing you to slow down or bonk.)

The easiest way to improve your ability to oxidize fatóturn fat into energyóis to train for long hours on the trails or in the saddle at a relatively slow pace. Generally, you donít want to go much faster than your Ironman pace if youíre trying to stimulate your fat oxidation capabilities. While most athletes are well aware of this, there are several diet and training tricks out there that claim to increase the quality of the training stimulus these rides and runs provide. I have researched and tried most of these tricks myself while I was an Ironman pro and now have an understanding of what does and doesnít work."

cabbagehead
03-07-2014, 00:17
trail mix with nuts
Suppose everything you're carrying weighs 10 to 18 lbs. I don't weigh my stuff. Carry 20 lbs of food. Carry less by dehydrating and cooking. If you've got the fanciest gear, there's no reason why your food can't weigh more than the total weight of your gear. I hate being skinny. I would rather be slower and carry more. Being sexy is more important than hiking longer distances. 20 lbs of oatmeal + sugar bars, a mix of nuts and dried fruit, and some fish will last 5 days maximum.

rafe
03-07-2014, 00:35
Wow, what an amazing thread. As a dedicated section hiker I kinda have to grin a bit. For me, losing weight on the trail is a feature not a bug. Dark chocolate is good stuff. Peanut M&Ms still rule in my book. That's about the extent of the science I've put into my trail diet.

Malto
03-07-2014, 00:37
I'd never want to eat 2+ lbs of food per day on a hike (or 5,000 calories); doing so is a waste of an opportunity to create a fat-burning super machine. I generally ate ~1/2 cup of rice per day (with all my dehydrated foodstuff and dash of oil thrown in); two packs of oatmeal; few scoops of peanut butter; a few handfuls of gorp; and whatever type of bar I had.

while this is a great approach to short duration hikes, something I do, but it simple will not work for long duration hikes such as a thru hike unless you have a extra belly full of flab. In spite of the articles claim of an almost unlimited resource of fat, a thru hike will hit that limit for most in shape hikers.

Dogwood
03-07-2014, 00:39
How the heck do you eat 5000 calories a day?
Muncha muncha muncha muncha muncha muncha muncha muncha............................................ .................................................. ..............

cabbagehead
03-07-2014, 00:51
Whey Protein

Is this isolate or concentrate. I heard that ion exchange filtration is often used to make isolate. Are the claims true that this changes the chirality of the alpha carbons (the ones the R groups are linked to) from the "L" form to the "D" form? Is the "D" form unnatural, and is it absorbed less?

Dogwood
03-07-2014, 01:12
Whey protein usually is not the same as whey protein isolate(WPI). WPI is arrived at by additional refining of whey so reputable sellers typically specifically note that what they are selling is WPI to account for the higher grade? and slightly higher costs. And, if the label says whey it definitely is not just WPI. Further, if whey is refined even beyond WPI it's typically specifically mentioned, usually as whey hydrosylate. Maybe, there are other whey products as well. That's a far as I understand and even then you should check me on this. Research your source.

"I heard that ion exchange filtration is often used to make isolate." Like wise here.

The rest goes beyond my understanding.

Just Bill
03-07-2014, 15:47
No this thread is not for everyone, but for those that it is for- great responses!

A few updates-
Malto with unsweetened powdered ice tea mix is becoming a fast favorite now that I've tried it. It may even be a lighter bit of flavoring than crystal light. A little citrus powder (dried lime, lemon, orange in the coffee grinder) gives it a little punch. Using chinese five spice or similiar also gives it an intersting spin and a refreshing taste similiar to russian tea. If I make the effort I may even add some electrolites and ditch/replace the gatorade.

Also had the chance to try the un-sweetened Kool-Aid and found it satisfactory. Cheaper than Crystal light by far but still not my thing. Good option though if you like it and you can find over 30 flavors at my grocery store so hard to get sick of it.

Think it was answered- but most, if not all commonly found Malto is derived from corn. You have to special order anything else. My understanding is that it is a longer chain molecule compared to straight sugar. It is also less prone to clumping or spoilage.

Drizzling a little caffiene in is also aides in fat metabolism if I recall correctly. (so the iced tea mix gains a slight edge for dual purpose use IMO)

I have found enough other ways to incorporate protien without the whey. As Malto mentioned/predicted- it gets hard to choke down long term and I believe Map Man mentioned the clean up hassles. It is hard to get to disolve in a reasonable timeframe as well. Good whey is expensive as mentioned so I use it selectively. I think I also over reacted a bit after reading the nutritional post/article/interview that was shared on this site. When I looked harder my protien deficiet was not as large as I had thought. Instead-

I have been making some more "cream" based broths. Two winners so far. Mushroom (Nido and powdered mushrooms in equal parts) and cream of tomato (Nido and powdered dried pasta sauce in equal parts). I find I get some acid reflux when eating my sit-down meals anyway and the addition of cream based broths adds just enough alkalines to curb that issue. Basically between breakfast lunch and dinner I am adding about 3/4 cups of nido now.

I have always enjoyed nuts. ;) But in the summer heat or in storage I found they tended to loose thier crunch and grew mushy and tasteless. My wife brought home some Seasame sticks from trader joes and these have proved to be an excellent solution. Great fat and all the benefits of the seasame seeds and they serve as a sort of silica packet. I have been putting equal parts cashews, almonds, and sesame sticks together. Very easy way to get big protien punch and high fat in an easy to eat combo. Not been hot enough to truly test the combo, but I think it solves my nut problem.

My family also got into emergen-c this winter. I like it and will add a packet a day. I did find if you need a whey based drink that the orange flavor mixed with a serving of whey and 8-12 ounces of water is pretty good (cremesicle like flavor). The bubbles in the emergen-c help disolve the whey and make for a pretty easy to mix/consume combo. If you just need a small protien bump this seems like a good way to add it without choking on it or overdoing it. Expensive though.

Matt Kirk-
Remember that guy! He shared a tip I finally had a chance to try out and it solved many problems for me in one fell swoop. I bring olive oil to add fat, but find I forget to add it to meals half the time and don't like carrying a liquid. I also can't stand eating bars, especially after they have been mail dropped and exposed to any heat. But Matt mentioned his love of coconut oil and that spreading it on a bar made it taste like a DQ blizzard. Whatever thought I, but we picked up some coconut oil to try around the house and one day I figured what the hell. Turns out the man is still the man- it's like putting frosting on a cake. Suddenly the dry hard to choke down bar has just the right amount of moisture to make it palatable and the oil is very creamy and tasty in combination with nearly every flavor of Cliff Bar I have tried. It even makes the flavors I don't like palatable. 1 tablespoon adds 120 calories to a bar (250 for cliff) and makes a very good twice a day addition to my mealplan.

So I can once more eat bars (makes things easier) and I found a good way to get fats back in that seems sustainable from a taste standpoint. Not sure if this will be the case when the ambient air and heat leads to soupier coconut oil as it melts around 80/90 degrees or so, but so far so good.

The oil is also a great skin oil and cure for chafing. Works on the feet too and is easy to spoon into a meal if needed. Anish and Sai Kirk were both proponents.

rafe
03-07-2014, 15:57
I'd love to whey in on this discussion but for once am left speechless in awe of the study y'all have made of it.

rafe
03-07-2014, 16:10
How many of you good old boys have heard of Halvah? Probably hard to get below the Manson/Nixon line but it's amazing stuff and seriously yummy. Protein, fat and sugar. What's not to like? Here in the northeast, when you can find it, it's usually the Joyva brand. Great hiking food (not cheap) but starts getting messy in the heat.

http://www.joyva.com/8oz.html

Pootz
03-07-2014, 16:10
I eat as much as I can while backpacking and always enjoy the weight loss

Just Bill
03-07-2014, 16:45
while this is a great approach to short duration hikes, something I do, but it simple will not work for long duration hikes such as a thru hike unless you have a extra belly full of flab. In spite of the articles claim of an almost unlimited resource of fat, a thru hike will hit that limit for most in shape hikers.

I like the article and the point you are making PF, but also have a hard time converting athletic nutrition into hiking nutrition. Maybe a triathelete is the closest, but all althetics seem to be "event" based even when you count the training. They are just different. Ultrarunners seem to be a good comparison, but even they tend to take a week or more off after thier event. Jason Rubliard's book (never wipe your ass with a squirrell) had an intrequing section describing a similiar technique to this one and it makes sense.

You don't need to be Matt Kirk or Jen Davis. An average higer mileage hiker pulls a marathon a day for months on end with minimial or zero rest. Making a super effecient body makes some sense in training, but for the actual hike? IMO Matt lost a dangerous amount of weight with a similiar strategy to the one you suggest (3-4k cal/day or less) He was lean and mean when he started and clearly must have been canabilizing muscle or worse at the end. Pure speculation on my part but it seemed like he was forced to adjust his food strategy along the way just to finish.

I don't know you well enough to say- but are you a strong enough athelete that a hike, even what we would consider higher effort is not actually much effort for you? I'm not even a runner, so I am at full capacity doing it when I go. I gather you do enough stuff that 30 MPD may not be the effort it would be for me. Is that why what you are doing works? If you put in a record breaking effort would you believe it would hold?

Just Bill
03-07-2014, 16:56
A thought for others--
A lot of these techniques may not apply to an average hiker, but alot of the strategies regarding snacks and liquid calories would be of great benifit to those considering going stoveless. Of the 5000+ calories we are discussing, well over half come from options that do not require cooking.

Dogwood
03-07-2014, 16:58
Much above room temp my coconut oil goes from a complete solid to a combo solid/liquid. I don't know how that might play into your dersire to avoid carrying a lquid. It also goes rancid if old or always exposed to oxygen in warmer temps. At home it stays solid though.

Just Bill
03-07-2014, 17:23
Much above room temp my coconut oil goes from a complete solid to a combo solid/liquid. I don't know how that might play into your dersire to avoid carrying a lquid. It also goes rancid if old or always exposed to oxygen in warmer temps. At home it stays solid though.
I noted Captain Kirk stored his in (4oz?) jars and wrapped them with Leukotape. Looked like a solid system overall but I also believe it will likely liquify most of the time. I plan to experiment a bit with it to see if it is a palatable or useful in combination with the bars. I would think it would harden up enough to make it useable most evenings/mornings.

Have you tried it for skin care? My use so far has been limited but promising. I still carry a bit of gold bond lotion for my inner thighs and feet to prevent them from getting too tough. I prefer that to body glide or hydropel.

Malto
03-07-2014, 17:32
Have you tried it for skin care? My use so far has been limited but promising. I still carry a bit of gold bond lotion for my inner thighs and feet to prevent them from getting too tough. I prefer that to body glide or hydropel.

if you wake up in the middle of the night with a bear licking your crotch, don't be too surprised! :)

Just Bill
03-07-2014, 17:49
if you wake up in the middle of the night with a bear licking your crotch, don't be too surprised! :)

LOL, one problem at a time my friend.

Dogwood
03-07-2014, 19:20
I noted Captain Kirk stored his in (4oz?) jars and wrapped them with Leukotape. Looked like a solid system overall but I also believe it will likely liquify most of the time. I plan to experiment a bit with it to see if it is a palatable or useful in combination with the bars. I would think it would harden up enough to make it useable most evenings/mornings.

Have you tried it for skin care? My use so far has been limited but promising. I still carry a bit of gold bond lotion for my inner thighs and feet to prevent them from getting too tough. I prefer that to body glide or hydropel.

Have you checked out Go Tubes. They work for something like coconut oil(solid at room temp) but may start to melt some on hot summer hikes. Those glass jars that coconut oil sometimes is packed in are heavy. I've saved and weighed a few different jars like these. What's also nice about having a GoTube is that you can keep mixing things up/changing the foods you put in it ie; PB, Tahini, almond butter, jam/jelly, coconut oil, olive oil(I find carrying to best be safely achieved with a REI bought 3 oz screw cap bottle), ghee, Nutella, etc.


http://reuseitcdn.cachefly.net/getDynamicImage.aspx?q=100&width=235&height=235&path=HUG_03_Hero.jpg

My lip balm, which I use in the desert or in winter, sometimes has coconut butter in it.

We can also get our electrolytes(sodium, potassium, magnesium, chloride, calcium(found in all produce from the earth), etc) through the trail food we consume not just through a processed refined added back in product or as an additive geared towards the running market which is what you've(JB) fallen in step with. examples: PB on a bagel, collard greens(found in nearly every grocery store sold by the lb, buy a few leaves!, could definitely be consumed more on trail), seaweed/kelp(under utilized by the hiking community IMO!), spinach, kale(vastly under utilized by the hiking community!), beans(I look for dried black bean soup mix that cooks up in 5 mins!, buy at Target or from bulk bins ), lentils(I look for dried lentil bean soup which cooks up in 5 mins!, again I buy just the amt I want from bulk bins, sometimes I have to go to a heath food store to find it though, a little goes quite a ways and it stores well so I usually buy a lb or two at a time), dried fruits(apricots, figs, mulberries, cranberries, blueberries, etc), bananas(in town I eat two every time on a hike), milk(goat, cow, soy, almond, dried coconut milk), chips(try Sweet Potato Chips w/ Olive oil, Rosemary, and Sea Salt!. YUM). IMHO, this is a MUCH better WHOLEFOODS less refined way of approaching dietary requirements than taking a modern science nutritional approach that says food is nothing more than the known sum of its parts. VERY OFTEN, something in our food gets ignored or lost when we take that modern science nutritional approach.

Farr Away
03-07-2014, 20:21
I think there are 3 versions of coconut oil - regular melts around 76 deg F; partially hydrogenated melts around 92 deg F; and fractionated is a liquid.

-FA

Pedaling Fool
03-08-2014, 11:05
while this is a great approach to short duration hikes, something I do, but it simple will not work for long duration hikes such as a thru hike unless you have a extra belly full of flab. In spite of the articles claim of an almost unlimited resource of fat, a thru hike will hit that limit for most in shape hikers.


I like the article and the point you are making PF, but also have a hard time converting athletic nutrition into hiking nutrition. Maybe a triathelete is the closest, but all althetics seem to be "event" based even when you count the training. They are just different. Ultrarunners seem to be a good comparison, but even they tend to take a week or more off after thier event. Jason Rubliard's book (never wipe your ass with a squirrell) had an intrequing section describing a similiar technique to this one and it makes sense.

You don't need to be Matt Kirk or Jen Davis. An average higer mileage hiker pulls a marathon a day for months on end with minimial or zero rest. Making a super effecient body makes some sense in training, but for the actual hike? IMO Matt lost a dangerous amount of weight with a similiar strategy to the one you suggest (3-4k cal/day or less) He was lean and mean when he started and clearly must have been canabilizing muscle or worse at the end. Pure speculation on my part but it seemed like he was forced to adjust his food strategy along the way just to finish.

I don't know you well enough to say- but are you a strong enough athelete that a hike, even what we would consider higher effort is not actually much effort for you? I'm not even a runner, so I am at full capacity doing it when I go. I gather you do enough stuff that 30 MPD may not be the effort it would be for me. Is that why what you are doing works? If you put in a record breaking effort would you believe it would hold?

First let me emphasize that I said in my post above that this is NOT sustainable. I never rationed my food intake during my town visits; I have some very good memories of eating past my welcome at various AYCE establishments.

Another thing to consider is, I believe my approach to hiking is far different than some; Iíve heard some of the feats of MaltoÖhe would definitely hike circles around me. No, I'm not an endurance hiker, so in that sense my approach is, I'm sure, way off.

My goal of fitness is different, despite all the talk about fitness, my goal is far different than a lot, in that Iím not too concerned of racing against the clock. However, thatís not to say I donít push myself Ė I definitely do, but not really in my hiking, so maybe, in a way, my trail diet is well suited for me. However, with all the flower-sniffers on here Iím sure they could incorporate a very similar approach:).

Maybe I should have been clearer; my only real attraction to the article is more based on my personal experience of becoming a fat burning machine. And this is an issue Iíve struggled with, especially as I age and I still do, but Iíve finally feel as I whipped it, but like alcoholics Iím not saying Iím cured Ė I love to eat!!

I absolutely agree that we Regular Joes should be very careful in copying the practices of the elites; there is a very big difference between using exercise in seeking a healthy lifestyle and exercise in training for competition -- I think a lot of people confuse that and try too much to copy the pro's.

As I said, my main goal is life-long fitness in a very all around sense, not just cardio. And Iíve learned that I can NOT do enough exercise to keep the weight off. I am one of those people that can look at food and gain weight. I am one of those people who USE to not be able to save food for the next day; on the contrary, I ate the whole thing. I now save food, thatís a big deal for me. If I open a pack of steak with two steaks in there I ate both steaks, but now I save it, not for later that day, but for the next day; thatís a radical paradigm shift for me and I believe more people need that change.

I learned this life-changing lesson while hiking. There is no other activity I can think of where we must ration food, in fact it's quite opposite with all the talk of just how many calories we need when participating in X-activity for X-time... They're all wrong based on my experience.

Dogwood
03-08-2014, 13:51
I bet that orange cream popsicle flavored whey/maltodextrin drink would go well with Soylent Green chips. Umm, soup du jour, that sounds good. I'll have some of that. :)

Just Bill
03-09-2014, 13:45
I bet that orange cream popsicle flavored whey/maltodextrin drink would go well with Soylent Green chips. Umm, soup du jour, that sounds good. I'll have some of that. :)

Well when it comes time to make my next batch of Soylent Green I'll look you up. The best batch is made with the healthiest raw ingredients.

Just Bill
03-09-2014, 13:54
First let me emphasize that I said in my post above that this is NOT sustainable. I never rationed my food intake during my town visits; I have some very good memories of eating past my welcome at various AYCE establishments.

Another thing to consider is, I believe my approach to hiking is far different than some; I’ve heard some of the feats of Malto…he would definitely hike circles around me. No, I'm not an endurance hiker, so in that sense my approach is, I'm sure, way off.

My goal of fitness is different, despite all the talk about fitness, my goal is far different than a lot, in that I’m not too concerned of racing against the clock. However, that’s not to say I don’t push myself – I definitely do, but not really in my hiking, so maybe, in a way, my trail diet is well suited for me. However, with all the flower-sniffers on here I’m sure they could incorporate a very similar approach:).

Maybe I should have been clearer; my only real attraction to the article is more based on my personal experience of becoming a fat burning machine. And this is an issue I’ve struggled with, especially as I age and I still do, but I’ve finally feel as I whipped it, but like alcoholics I’m not saying I’m cured – I love to eat!!

I absolutely agree that we Regular Joes should be very careful in copying the practices of the elites; there is a very big difference between using exercise in seeking a healthy lifestyle and exercise in training for competition -- I think a lot of people confuse that and try too much to copy the pro's.

As I said, my main goal is life-long fitness in a very all around sense, not just cardio. And I’ve learned that I can NOT do enough exercise to keep the weight off. I am one of those people that can look at food and gain weight. I am one of those people who USE to not be able to save food for the next day; on the contrary, I ate the whole thing. I now save food, that’s a big deal for me. If I open a pack of steak with two steaks in there I ate both steaks, but now I save it, not for later that day, but for the next day; that’s a radical paradigm shift for me and I believe more people need that change.

I learned this life-changing lesson while hiking. There is no other activity I can think of where we must ration food, in fact it's quite opposite with all the talk of just how many calories we need when participating in X-activity for X-time... They're all wrong based on my experience.

Thanks fella- your explanation makes your thoughts clearer.
At a good clip, the AT has so many opportunities for town food that it's not hard to get close enough and cover the deficit in town. One day I hope to follow in Malto's footsteps... on any trail but the AT you're on your own to keep up the calories. If I recall correctly he struggled trying to catch up on the few town stops he made on the PCT. Only a fool would disregard the chance to pile it on in town, but outside the AT that opportunity gets too rare to rely on.

Dogwood-
I'll have to try those tubes. The jar I was referring to that Matt used looked a lot like a urine sample jar, a lighter plastic than the nalgene version but just as trustworthy. Speculation but I'm fairly sure it's a solid guess and light solution. Would be great for PB or all the other items mentioned and easier to fill.

Just Bill
03-09-2014, 13:58
I think there are 3 versions of coconut oil - regular melts around 76 deg F; partially hydrogenated melts around 92 deg F; and fractionated is a liquid.

-FA

Thanks!!!!!

Dogwood
03-09-2014, 15:09
...I'll have to try those tubes. The jar I was referring to that Matt used looked a lot like a urine sample jar, a lighter plastic than the nalgene version but just as trustworthy. Speculation but I'm fairly sure it's a solid guess and light solution. Would be great for PB or all the other items mentioned and easier to fill.

Check out the go Tubes. They are designed to be easily fillable with something like coconut oil/PB/jelly/tahini, etc. That clear/white cap unscrews to a wide mouth.

The best Soylent Green is made from 100% Organic ingredients. :D Do what works best for you.

Those drink mix packs seem about as compact as pseudo food can be. You never did say if that whey/malt mix gives ya gas or causes any other recognizable issues particularly with long term use(month after month hiking). Malto is basically sugar - chains of glucose.

Just Bill
03-10-2014, 09:22
I never had any issues with the whey, I'm not lactose intolerant and the packs in the OP only have an ounce and a half of it anyway. I can't imagine it's any worse than eating a block of cheese and a pint of B&J's which many of us do when we hit town. My only gripe is the one previously mentioned- it's slow/difficult to dissolve and messy to pour and clean up. Mixing it with Emergen-C is about the best combo I've come up with to get it to dissolve.

I like Malto and Whey because although you wouldn't call them "wholefoods" they are pretty close to "pure". Maltodextrine is just powdered and dried Corn (more or less) and Whey is a dried byproduct of cheese production. It's only in combination with other chemicals to make various sports powders that they get too engineered for my taste. I suppose if you do the homework the chemical name of various foods are little different to me than how landscape pros use the latin names of plants to say the same thing.

I agree with you on wholefoods in general but as I am not a nutritionist I am more in the better safe than sorry category. One of my few trips to the hospital was for hyponatremia so I am overly concerned about electrolytes as a result. Doctors advised a 3-1 electrolyte ratio (3 water, 1gatorade is the easy solution) to prevent issues. I eat many of the foods you mentioned but at thru-hiker/speed hiker pace and calorie consumption don't know for sure I have it covered. My intense trips also occur during the heat of summer when I sweat heavily and consume 3-4 gallons of water per day, so I don't guess on this issue.

Perhaps Malto would repost his homemade recipe for electrolyte pills here. I took his advice seriously on the subject but took the "easy way out" and continue to use Gatorade as I like it and don't have to think about it. His pills covered the essentials and would allow you to skip the less desirable colorings and flavorings.

Dogwood
03-11-2014, 15:17
I didn't read anywhere that Matt was drinking maltodextrin/Whey everyday on his AT thru record. Was he doing that JB? With all he was eating both on and off trail(he says he adheres to a vegetarian diet) it sure seems Matt looked gaunt and emaciated. It looks like his muscle mass is wasting away. Look at his pic in the March 2014 Backpacker and here?:

http://blogs2.citizen-times.com/outdoors/files/2013/08/MattKirkDoughtonPark-300x225.jpg

That was what I looked like at the end of my 5 month moderately paced(I took a lot of "zeros") AT hike but on a wiry 6'4" med frame. I felt I was too lean and my energy levels weren't consistent which IMO affected my yoyoing of daily mileage totals. I sought to range my total caloric intake just as Matt did, between 3500-3700 cals. Matt also said he went from an already trim 155 lbs to 140 lbs on his AT record hike. That's 10% of his body wt lost on AN ALREADY VERY LEAN pre AT record hike frame. Doesn't seem like he's in a good position with his LEAN pre hike body wt to be losing 10% of his body wt. attempting to keep his stamina and endurance up for much beyond the duration of his 60 days(58 days for the AT record). I wonder if he added in the coconut oil at some pt because of his sometimes waning energy levels. Matt also said he went hungry but tranced into another state of mind regarding his hunger.

Rolls Kanardly
03-11-2014, 16:04
Just Bill
Do not know about the makeup of Tang, but Tang might give you an orange flavor for a change of pace.

Rolls

Just Bill
03-12-2014, 19:27
DW-
Matt and I swapped one or two PM's but mostly I glean the following from his interviews/articles/website-
He gave up on vegetarian a few days in.

As far as I know- No whey or Malto for him other than what was in his various bars.

He did target around that range- 3500 calories. Half speculation half confirmed- he figured with at that pace he would hit town food often enough to supplement the carried food frequently.

He used the coconut oil right from the start, various bars, and his Pad-thai ramen. Also shows the basic beans/fritos meal. Thought I saw some gels, but no other gatorade or similiar liquid calories/electrolites.

Other than that I think he ate everything and anything he could get his hands on. You might find his packing (day zero) video a good source. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD88_QCsejA&list=PLGWkaGOTx1QrN-GpyC6vPg8LWbxOmTLCG

The coconut oil jars I mentioned are about 2 mins in along with some quick shots of his various items.

On my first SOBO hike I encountered the living dead when I started in August. The fast flyer NOBO's all looked like Matt. They were sucked dry and sickly looking folks and scared the crap out of me. I vowed never to be that guy. Going for the record is one thing, but to have that happen on a regular thru?

I think Malto did some similiar math in his PCT journal but...
If you are burning just 5000 cal a day (it's likely higher based on Colin Fletcher's work).
3500 calories leaves you at a 1500 cal deficit, five days of that leaves you 9000 cal in the hole.
Even taking a zero your body is ripping though calories just to heal, but let's say you only burn 3k for the sake of arguement (although I think it's still in the 5-6k range).
On your zero day you would need to consume 12,000 calories to recover from the last five days.
That's assuming you can-
A-eat that much, and that those are usable calories.
B-If you can eat that much, it doesn't shoot right through and make a mess in the Mickey D's bathroom.
C-What calories you do consume and spend enough time in your intestines to absorb actually get stored as fat.

Ah, but my fat!
Yes you have stored fat, at roughly 3500 calories per pound. But to unlock that fat you also must consume lean muscle and water from the body to burn it so loosing a pound does not equate to 3500 calories of energy exactly. Let's call 3000 a fair number per pound.

Also- healthy weight loss tends to stabilize after six weeks or so.

Let's go back to the above and assume a zero every six days you can recover half of your deficit, leaving you 6000 calories short or roughly two pounds of mass. The same six day schedule for six weeks means you have burned seven cycles worth- or 14 pounds of fat.

In a speedier hike- 5 months you go through 23 cycles, meaning you'd need to burn 46 pounds of body mass to keep up. If you are younger or in shape when you start you don't have it. Lean college males especially. So like the zombies I met in Maine you are not looking too pleasant when you finish, and depending on your pace may even do damage.

Yes, your body does get more efficient and there are many more facts to consider but bottom line- for those that don't have the weight to loose you are going to run into trouble. Even if you say my reasoning is crap and cut the numbers in half they are still serious numbers. Life or death trouble- likely not.

But... the "Maine malaise" many thru-hikers report may be easily fixed with even a few hundred more calories a day. At the very least you'll feel better, at the other extreme it may be the difference between finishing and quitting. Matt used extraordinary will power to finish, seems silly for more casual hikers to fight the same battle. Food also deeply affects your mood, I wonder how many of the folks who make it half or 3/4 of the way and find themselves "sick of walking" are really just hungry?

Unlike Jen- Matt did not have some of the "big" days you might expect. I agree and said at the time I thought it was just his extreme discipline in pacing, but perhaps seeing his condition at the finish it was simply him willing himself to finish each day. I honestly have no idea though but we've all "run on empty" and suffered, and we've all cranked out a super day after a belly full of town food- so there may be something to that. Matt is either uninterested in this site or simply busy working- I don't want to start that fight but without his direct answer excuse my speculation. He's one of the few examples we have to look to on this topic, that's all.



******I would never take anything from Matt's hike and much of this information is a combo of Colin Fletcher's research, my independent study, and some pure speculation. What Matt did is amazing and I have nothing but the highest respect. Appologies if it comes off as anything but admiration and an attempt to understand his technique better and how we can apply it to some of our hikes.

Malto
03-12-2014, 19:50
JB,
the best estimate that I have come up with is 1 calorie per pound carried per mile. So with a complete weight of say 200 that would be 200 calories per mile. For the 500 miles of the PCT I averaged 33.3MPD. At that point in the trip my total weight averaged about 190 so I was burning about 6300 calories per day. I have a real good idea on my calorie intake since most of my calories were mailed resupplies which were all carefully controlled and catalogued as to the calories and macro nutritional makeup. I also supplemented that with some store food but I had no zeros and very few extra meals. In that section I was eating close to that 6300 expenditure and my weight lose was a total of 1 lb in that section along with the next 1000 in Or and WA. So I was able to successfully match expenditure which I believe was needed to keep my pace up and finish in my allotted time.

on shorter hikes now, I will usually eat 100 calories per mile and use body fat to supply the other 100 calories per mile. This approach has also been very successful in maintaining high energy even on 40+ mile days. I have a combination 49 mile trail run immediately followed by a Death Valley to Whitney hike the next day with some very high mile long distance hikers. I plan on use my short duration strategy even for this 6 day total duration. I know from my thru that I have enough body fat needed to complete this distance using this strategy. Longer than the 6 days then I would eat close to the 200 calories per mile.

just as an aside. Does anyone else calculate their food carry base on miles vs. days or time? I just realized that I have not read anyone use that approach on this site.

Just Bill
03-12-2014, 21:15
Malto-
Not sure if you've read Colin Fletcher but the Complete Walker IV has a pretty extensive review of calories; basal body bases and various impacts of activity. Horace Kephart's Camping and Woodcraft is also a decent source but dated. I can find no other source but Jardine's vauge musings on the subject.

Mike Clelland and the folks at Nols have some decent info but it's all geared towards thier feedback and experience of clients out for shorter term (fat store burning) hikers. His number is a pounds per person per day number and the common way to address calories among most modern authors and hikers. It also follows the basic "a calorie is a calorie" approach with little thought to nutrition as there are no long term goals I agree it's of little importance.

Fletcher may have come close, but to the best of my knowledge no-one has created as simple a formula as yours. As you say for trips under a week it has little impact. I think the average hiker can stretch that "fat buffer" further as metabolism and typical thru-hiker appetite takes some time to build.

For folks like yourself though who are on a (rigerous) training schedule pre-hike the adjustment time is very short. Also, as you say, your hike is as close to a closed system as it's going to get.

I'll try to dig into Fletcher's numbers again to compare your formula- but I think it's as close to a complete formula as I have seen! Even if it's not 100% it's still a much cleaner approach and solution than anything else available.

Malto's Law of Caloric Consumption- (Body weight+Pack Weight) x MHPD= Total calories required per day.
Did I get that right?

I paraphrased a bit- but I believe you also found that even on a zero day you found little if any refueling benefit from the binge eating? No science to back it up, but it seems like at best, a hiker might store 500-1000 calories regardless of how much you pile on.

Malto
03-12-2014, 21:31
Malto's Law of Caloric Consumption- (Body weight+Pack Weight) x MHPD= Total calories required per day.
Did I get that right?

I paraphrased a bit- but I believe you also found that even on a zero day you found little if any refueling benefit from the binge eating? No science to back it up, but it seems like at best, a hiker might store 500-1000 (tel:500-1000) calories regardless of how much you pile on.

you have the formula. Combine that with my daily mileage estimate (average starting mileage =2/3rds of max day hike with pack on comparable terrain and still walk the next day.) and you have the sum of all my knowledge!

as far as binge eating. I believe there are two separate but related goals, short term energy for the day and long term caloric intake to keep from wasting away. I saw no help from binge eating on daily energy, that was accomplished by dripping in 300 calories per hour. It did add to the total calories which helped the long term.

Just Bill
03-12-2014, 21:46
Awww, now you messed it up. I go with Day hike miles by 80% for experienced and 60% for rookies.

Although average mine out and that's 70% to your 67.67% so close enough to remain friends :rolleyes:

Dogwood
03-12-2014, 21:53
I've been trying to locate boxes of Fantastic World Foods dehydrated Black Beans with no luck for 3 damn months. Now, I know why. Matt bought all of it! His kitchen/living room looks like my spare bedroom right now. I have 15 resupply boxes that have to start being mailed next week(food, maps, batteries, hygiene products, supplements/medicine, gear, etc). How about you JB. Do you mail yourself resupply foods?

Dogwood
03-12-2014, 21:56
JB, bad news. A catastrophe has occurred. The USPS, Fed EX, and UPS just banned mailing large amts of malto and whey. :D

Just Bill
03-12-2014, 22:08
No whey!:mad:

Yes, 99% of the time (not that I have the chance to go out long enough anymore) I do mail drops.
I did a mail drop for the LT trip. My Springer to Hot Springs trip I carried all my food from the start and replaced what I gave away at NOC and scored a little food at Sleeping Bear. Everything else lately has been short enough to carry.

I prefer to have what I want and find it to be cheaper as well (especially for crafty off-season shoppers;)). Even if I'm not in a rush, I'd rather be at the bar drinking than cruising the isles at a supermarket or sitting in a hostel going though the hiker box.

The only exception really is when I am looking for some fresh foods to bring, but as my trips are pretty tightly scheduled these days (regardless of miles) I haven't done that for some time.

Just Bill
03-19-2014, 18:22
Hey Dogwood- is this the brand/type of this that you had recommended before?
Considering trying some and swapping it for the gatorade. Looks like electrolytes are covered (why I like gatorade) with out all the chemicals.
Label to label, the Coco Hydro has more potassium and less salt (jerky has that covered) so may be a perfect switch.

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Tree-Farms-CocoHydro-9-7-Ounce/dp/B0043OGJK4/ref=pd_bxgy_gro_img_z

I noted the three flavors- any other brand? This looks like the best of the bunch though and I am pretty sure the one you suggested.

Also considering it to make a trail version of chia pudding for hot days.