Opinion of Car Campers Using Shelters?

[Gambit McCrae]

Last weekend I went to MD to hike from Harpers Ferry to Pen Mar.

Night one we shared the old Rocky Run shelter with two sobos and had a very pleasant evening sharing spirits and stories.

Night two, after hiking in the rain for 16 miles we come to Cowell Shelter just in time to bed down, we are greeted by 10 car campers the "leader" who has a glock on one hip and a fixed black on the other, (looking like he just stepped out of Mountain hardware .com) tells us that his dog(sitting in the shelter) is not friendly and that it is full.

Opinions on this? Was the experience normal? Or did this group infringe on proper trail edicate.

[hikerboy57]

Bring a tent. Problem solved

[winger]

Trail "etiquette"? Not sure what that is intended to mean, all the more reason to have an alternative plan. Alternatives are necessary whether you're on the trail, flying a plane (weather, fuel concerns, bathroom break,etc), or driving (road blocked, accidents, need for sleep, etc), or, you get the idea.
All the more reason I don't use shelters anyway, despise the damn things. I suspect your experience is not that unusual, and others will have similar stories to tell I'm sure.

[bigcranky]

Shelters are first come, first served. Having an armed person tell me that the shelter is full -- well, he wouldn't have to tell me twice, anyway.

[QHShowoman]

The only etiquette for shelters along the AT in MD is "first come, first served." The AT runs through pretty well-populated areas in MD and many of the shelters (Cowell, Pine Knob, etc.) are near road crossings, which makes them popular for weekend car campers. If you're familiar with the trail through MD, you pretty much just try to steer clear of the more popular shelters on weekends.

[flemdawg1]

That sucks, but it happens. I was crowded out of a shelter by a large "urban adventure" group once in a thunderstorm south of Damascus. My tent worked fine.


Eventually, if you go to shelters often enough you'll run into a bad situation. Law of averages.

[MDSection12]

It's not normal, and of course it was not proper etiquette... But it does happen. I hike in MD often (was at Rocky Run last night in fact) and I've never had a problem like that.

[Slo-go'en]

That guy isn't going to make any new friends out there, but he and his group were there first. Plus he had a gun and a mean dog. I'd move along even if there was room.

Other things to consider are:

1) That shelter is very close to two roads. I imagine by calling them "car campers" they walked in from the road an easy 0.2 miles away. Shelters near roads are a big red flag when planning where to stay.

2) Last weekend was Columbus day weekend so you can expect a lot of people to be out. Holiday weekends can really bring out the crazies, so if you go out at all, it is best to find out of the way places in less populated areas to go to.

It was a busy weekend here in Northern NH. Two hikers died - both 60+ year olds, sounds like heart attackes. One lady fell and broke her arm, was able to hike out on her own (day hiker, not far from a road). One lady seriously hurt when her ATV failed to make a turn and she went over a 30 foot embankment (likely going too fast) and a guy shot by his son bird hunting (luckly just got peppered with bird shot).

[CarlZ993]

I'm assuming you left off the word 'knife' in your post ("fixed black __ on the other").

I'd say that 'common sense' was violated by bringing an 'unfriendly dog.' But, common sense isn't that common anymore.

Seeing a pistol on someone's hip is out of the ordinary. I saw it once on my thru in the Smokey's. Active duty Marines on a hike. I carried a pistol on my hip for my entire career (Law Enforcement). Wouldn't think about carrying one on a hike in the lower 48. Too heavy. Security issues. Often ineffective on large animals (bears).

Don't recall the capacity of that shelter. But, 10 people is a lot of people in a shelter. You put up your tent & move on the next day. Shelters close to a road often fill up with 'car campers.' But, they have the same right to stay there as anyone else. Pecking order of shelter entitlement: thru-hiker --> LASHer --> Section Hiker --> Car Camper?

[MDSection12]

Just a note; open carry is not legal in MD... Unless he was law enforcement, which I doubt, then he was illegally carrying. Hike on.

[fiddlehead]

I would have at least taken his picture. (or a video asking him to repeat the warning about his dog)
But yeah, never expect a shelter to be empty (especially on holiday weekends!)

[lush242000]

There are jerks everywhere. Stay away from easy access shelters and your odds of interacting with them drop fast.


Sent from somewhere.

[Lone Wolf]

Last weekend I went to MD to hike from Harpers Ferry to Pen Mar.

Night one we shared the old Rocky Run shelter with two sobos and had a very pleasant evening sharing spirits and stories.

Night two, after hiking in the rain for 16 miles we come to Cowell Shelter just in time to bed down, we are greeted by 10 car campers the "leader" who has a glock on one hip and a fixed black on the other, (looking like he just stepped out of Mountain hardware .com) tells us that his dog(sitting in the shelter) is not friendly and that it is full.

Opinions on this? Was the experience normal? Or did this group infringe on proper trail edicate.don't EVER count on a shelter. carry your shelter. anyone has a right to a shelter. first come, first served

[Gambit McCrae]

I should have inclued more-
We were prepared to tent and ended up doing so in the nearby camp pads. I guess the ettiquette I speak of is what I believe to be somewhat of a pecking order or atleast common curtacy of leaving the shelter space for people that have hiked long distances to get there. so yes therefore, thrus > sectioners> car campers. But in the end it is what it is and we DID all make out just fine.

He did not state if he was Law Enforcement but it was a glock 9mm full size, and it was a fixed blade* knife and freshly pressed and primped people. The shelter holds apx 10-14 but they also had 2 hammocks and the dog barks quite frequently while my polite and weary lab ignored sparkies attempts to tick him off lol

Lesson learned here- Avoid shelters close to the roads and always expect a full shelter, and to have to tent.

On to my second thread pertaining to this trip > Grudge resident with a heart? (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?99115-AT-Roadside-Resident-with-bad-taste-for-AT&p=1805883#post1805883)

[max patch]

First come first served. No difference if you hiked 1,000 miles to get there or drove up 0.2 miles away.

Having said that, the guy appears to be an azz and I would have filled up my water bottles and moved on.

[Montana]

I guess the ettiquette I speak of is what I believe to be somewhat of a pecking order or atleast common curtacy of leaving the shelter space for people that have hiked long distances to get there. so yes therefore, thrus > sectioners> car campers.


What makes you think that a thru-hiker is more deserving of a spot in a shelter than a sectioner or a car camper? Because they are walking further? That is just silly. Shelter space is, and always has been, first-come-first-served. Thru-hikers are nothing special, they are just people out for a longer than normal walk, and they deserve no special treatment. People that believe and act otherwise are where problems with locals come from (in their eyes you are just a hobo anyway).

Just because a person chooses to give up the 'normal life' for a few months does not mean they deserve to be held up on some pedestal.

[Coffee]

The only place that I know of where thru or section hikers get special preference for shelters is in Shenandoah National Park. The rule is that only those who are out for three nights or more are allowed to occupy shelter space, although I'm not sure whether this is enforced since I've never wanted to stay in a shelter.

[Alligator]

First come first served.

The Ensign Cowall Shelter is listed as sleeping eight in two of my guides. Some people will say there's always room for one more but I think the numbers are usually reasonable. I generally don't stay in one anyway if there are already people there, I'll just set up my shelter.

[Gambit McCrae]

Point well made that Thrus dont deserve special treatment, BUT I do see the trail as a being long distance and I do see the shelters being built for people who have been traveling on the AT to have a quick and easy rest. I do not see the shelters as a place for people to pull off the road and use by walking .2 miles to it! But thats just my opinion

[CB1821]

The ATC states that shelters “are intended for individual hikers, not big groups. If you're planning a group hike, plan to camp out or to yield space to individual hikers who may not have the resources you do”.
If you accept the ATC as the authority for AT rules, then:
1) One could reasonably argue that walking in .2 miles does not qualify a person as a “hiker”, and thus at the very least, they should have not monopolized the shelter.

Even if you accept this group as being “bona fide” hikers,

2) 10 people would seem to constitute a “big group”, and thus they should have planned to camp out or yielded space to GM.
Having said that, I would have gotten water and moved on quickly as some have suggested. It seems like what was encountered was a bad “experience” just waiting to happen.

[Fairway]

Point well made that Thrus dont deserve special treatment, BUT I do see the trail as a being long distance and I do see the shelters being built for people who have been traveling on the AT to have a quick and easy rest. I do not see the shelters as a place for people to pull off the road and use by walking .2 miles to it! But thats just my opinion

After reading your posts in this thread along with the other thread you started today, I'm left wondering how you came up with your signature. Specifically, the first and last lines in bold face.

[Another Kevin]

First come, first served.

A crowded shelter is also a noisy shelter. More people are likely to want to stay up later hobnobbing, or need to stay up later tending a big fire, or merely more likely to have a snorer among them.If a group at a shelter appears congenial, I'll hang out with the group, cook dinner, and retire to my tent nearby. Otherwise, I'll get water, use the privy if I need it, and move on. Either way, if I find 10 people at a shelter, I know I'm tenting that night.

This past Saturday night, I heard a lot of conversation at a shelter from a couple of hundred yards away, and simply backtracked 1/4 mile to a nice grove of hemlocks that I remembered seeing and found a good stealth site. I never even troubled to walk up and introduce myself that evening (didn't fancy finding my site again by headlamp), and everyone there was still asleep when I went past on Sunday morning. Looked like a big group of college kids, and I got an impression that they were not going to like the way their heads and tummies felt when they awoke.

If an armed individual had objected to my using a privy or gathering water, then I'd be complaining. But that doesn't sound like what happened.

[max patch]

First come first served is how it works and no reason to change it, but for the sake of discussion only, I can make an argument that should a hierarchy exist then thru hikers should be last on the list. The reason? Thru hikers should have appropriate gear and the experience on how to use it. The guy who walks a mile or so from the nearest trailhead may very well be a once a year user who probably "needs" a shelter more than someone else.

I tent so whatever ya'll decide about shelter use is fine with me. :)

[daddytwosticks]

Yeah, that sucks. The guy was carrying a gun and had a mean dog. Like everyone says, move on and tent. You'll have a better night's rest anyway. :)

[Lone Wolf]

who approves shelters being built close to roads? blame them

[RED-DOG]

The Shelters are open to whom ever wants to use them, in some areas you have to get a permit ( GSMNP ), so invest in a tent and use it instead.

[mgeiger]

They were probably pretty sloppy with food, both cooking, eating and storage. Hopefully they got moused pretty good.

[Hill Ape]

wait wait, you have a problem with another citizen using public property that their taxes paid for as well, but you're willing to trespass onto folks private property for a drink of water? man seriously

[tdoczi]

this is why the oft debated rule (debated as to it's merit and as to if it actually exists) about who is allowed to use AT shelters in certain areas (such as shenandoan NP) exist.

as far as i'm concerned the shelters are there for hikers (of any sort) not to be free of charge first come first served family weekend vacation cabins. ive run into groups like this all the time, and theya re in no way hikers.

[FarmerChef]

First come, first served for me. We usually hike when grabbing a shelter isn't an issue if we choose to sleep in one. But anything near the road on a weekend, let alone a holiday weekend is just asking for a large group. I've had a couple situations like this but just pitched a tent and didn't worry about it. As far as I'm concerned, thru hikers aren't entitled to any more space (or anything else) than I am as a long-a section hiker. And I'm not entitled to anything more than a day hiker or a bunch of tourists who stepped off a bus to walk a few feet of the trail. It's all there for all of us.

Now the gun on the hip I would take some exception with. But it's hard to remember what states permit open carry and where you can and can't do it. In either case, I would just move on. Maybe call the police just to be sure. But I don't see how a confrontation would do any good. My two cents.

[1234]

Shelters are first come, first served. Having an armed person tell me that the shelter is full -- well, he wouldn't have to tell me twice, anyway.
2nd!! this

[Lone Wolf]

i love seein' guns openly carried. makes me feel safe

[Wise Old Owl]

Shelters are first come, first served. Having an armed person tell me that the shelter is full -- well, he wouldn't have to tell me twice, anyway.

hmm cant be cranky after that huh? You could still give him a piece of your mind though....

Seriously all the thru have been thru... sometimes ya just need to fold the cards and camp elsewhere.

[aficion]

i love seein' guns openly carried. makes me feel safe

agree. mean dog not so much. might get shot.

[Wise Old Owl]

Wait mean dogs in a shelter - no really? that's going too far!

[Wise Old Owl]

First come, first served for me. We usually hike when grabbing a shelter isn't an issue if we choose to sleep in one. But anything near the road on a weekend, let alone a holiday weekend is just asking for a large group. I've had a couple situations like this but just pitched a tent and didn't worry about it. As far as I'm concerned, thru hikers aren't entitled to any more space (or anything else) than I am as a long-a section hiker. And I'm not entitled to anything more than a day hiker or a bunch of tourists who stepped off a bus to walk a few feet of the trail. It's all there for all of us.

Now the gun on the hip I would take some exception with. But it's hard to remember what states permit open carry and where you can and can't do it. In either case, I would just move on. Maybe call the police just to be sure. But I don't see how a confrontation would do any good. My two cents.

No crime no fowl - why on earth would you call 911?

[Spirit Walker]

Backpacking on the trail in MD or southern PA is always busy in the autumn. There are scout groups, high school groups, church groups, and just groups of friends out for the weekend. Easy access from the cities and nice weather make for very crowded conditions. We've frequently seen four or five large groups all headed for the same shelter area. That's why we avoid the trail this time of year.

There is no pecking order on the trail. Nobody gets priority. Just because you're hiking a long way doesn't make you special or extra deserving. There are more weekenders than thruhikers. More folks out doing short sections than hiking thru. And way more dayhikers than all the rest put together. The trail is for everybody.

[wornoutboots]

You might have gotten lucky, normally the shelters near roads are full of drunks. Drunks with guns & dogs = Bad news. I personally never end my day at a spot so close to a road. Like others said, make good use of your tent, much much better nights rest.

[Dogwood]

It can be a mistake in the first place to plan on sleeping at a shelter within an easy walk of any open to traffic road or at place like Cooper Lodge next to the Killington Ski Resort during winter when the resort is operating. Doing it on a Holiday or weekend especially like a fri or sat is ummm not advised.

[modiyooch]

After reading your posts in this thread along with the other thread you started today, I'm left wondering how you came up with your signature. Specifically, the first and last lines in bold face.yep, I noticed that too. my advice is to just go with the flow.

[HooKooDooKu]

The ATC states that shelters “are intended for individual hikers, not big groups. If you're planning a group hike, plan to camp out or to yield space to individual hikers who may not have the resources you do”.
If you accept the ATC as the authority for AT rules, then:
1) One could reasonably argue that walking in .2 miles does not qualify a person as a “hiker”, and thus at the very least, they should have not monopolized the shelter.

Even if you accept this group as being “bona fide” hikers,

2) 10 people would seem to constitute a “big group”, and thus they should have planned to camp out or yielded space to GM.
Having said that, I would have gotten water and moved on quickly as some have suggested. It seems like what was encountered was a bad “experience” just waiting to happen.

The first time I ever went to Disney World (i.e. large crowds from various back grounds) I quickly learned that it didn't mater what the rule was... there was always someone around breaking it. So basically, unless the ATC 'authority' is going to enforce its rules, the rules become meaningless when you run into an azz.

[Just Bill]

an Azz is an azz.
I would never have taken a shelter as a Scout. I would never plan on a shelter with a group. I would never classify one hiker as more deserving than another. I would agree with first come first served. I would always have a backup. I would not get upset.
I am not an azz.

[wiiawiwb]

The OP's story reminds me of a few months ago when I was doing an overnight with a buddy. It was getting late and we arrived at an 8-person lean-to we intended to stay at. Much to our chagrin, we saws a young couple, with a dog, and they had a tent in the lean-to that filled it completely. The boyfriend/husband looked like he bench pressed backhoes for a living and had a mean disposition to boot.

In my neck of the woods lean-to rules are first come, first served BUT you must allow others in. A person, or couple, can not claim it for themselves. Also, tents are not allowed in a lean-to, period.

We decided to move on and made it to another lean-to rather than escalate it to a fist-to-cuff incident. The simple truth is they were inexperienced kids who had no idea what the rules were yet arrogant enough to challenge anyone who dared to say a word.

[Last Call]

Not much to say that hasn't already been said......forget the armament; the dude was a crocker for bringing a vicious dog on the trail......ANY trail.....

[aficion]

"Opinions on this? Was the experience normal? Or did this group infringe on proper trail edicate."

Clearly, someone is in need of re-edication.

[tdoczi]

[QUOTE=Just Bill;1806206] I would never classify one hiker as more deserving than another.QUOTE]
yes, neither would I. but would you call people who walk .2 miles from the nearest road and set up shop in the shelter for 3 days before turning around and walking back out those same .2 miles "hikers"?cause I sure as heck don't.

[daddytwosticks]

My county here in WNC has the highest number of concealed carry permits in the state. EVERYONE is so nice and polite to each other! :)

[T.S.Kobzol]

First come first served makes logistical sense. There is no good way to come to an empty shelter and then wait until/whether a more deserving hiker arrives.

Hikers could arrive late at night
Hikers of same status could arrive after me and simply take the shelter...making a gullible bufoon out of me
Hikers could never arrive making the shelter unused
Hikers could lie about their long distance status

Basically always carry your shelter - it is cleaner and it smells better :) camp away from these high noise areas unless you really like to have company. This guy shows up with a dog, a gun and a bunch and 10 likeminded people and is telling me the shelter is full and his dog is mean
..is basically telling me they don't want my company. Good riddance, I would not want their company either.


Bumblebee Tuna

[peakbagger]

The AT in Maine used to have several shelters down near the road and readily accessible to walk in campers. After the relocation of the trail up onto the ridge line, the replacement shelters are located a significant distance away from the road and usually a significant elevation gain. Sure you still get college and youth groups, but there is a lot less issues the trade off is water availability in dry periods.

When hiking through PA, I do seem to remember many shelters that were readily accessible from the road and abused by locals, I don't think its deliberate, its just that the trail corridor wasn't very wide. in many spots the shelters may have been 'historical' but the best option would be to replace them with tent sites and a good outhouse.

[Gambit McCrae]

After reading your posts in this thread along with the other thread you started today, I'm left wondering how you came up with your signature. Specifically, the first and last lines in bold face.

Well First of all, I didnt come up with it. Its called 7 rules of LNT. And I was prepared and planned becasue I brought a tent, If you would read the thread I stated that. And I was considerate of the man of whom I asked for water so kick rocks

[Gambit McCrae]

If an armed individual had objected to my using a privy or gathering water, then I'd be complaining. But that doesn't sound like what happened.

No sir he had no problem with us getting water and tenting nearby, but the shelter was obviously "his"

[Rasty]

[QUOTE=Just Bill;1806206] I would never classify one hiker as more deserving than another.QUOTE]
yes, neither would I. but would you call people who walk .2 miles from the nearest road and set up shop in the shelter for 3 days before turning around and walking back out those same .2 miles "hikers"?cause I sure as heck don't.

You and I might not call them hikers for walking .2 miles but they might consider that hiking. Once they've considered themselves hikers then they are now hikers. There isn't a test or permit to be a hiker.

[Lone Wolf]

i'm a walker. it's just walkin'

[Gray Blazer]

My son and I like to drive all night from FL to the AT. Rock Gap is about the closest easiest access to the AT from FL. We usually arrive in the middle of the night, grab our pillows and sleeping bags and walk a few hundred yards to the shelter and crash for a few hours. Very convenient and there is never anybody else there. Other than that we never stay at shelters ( I can't stand the mice).

[hikerboy57]

i'm a walker. it's just walkin' where is the status in that?

[Rasty]

i'm a walker. it's just walkin'


where is the status in that?

Your a zombie?

[Gray Blazer]

Does sleep walking count?

[kayak karl]

is there a parking area at this shelter? if not they hiked in like you, only you hiked two days. if i saw 10 at a shelter i would of gotten water and moved on regardless of dog and firearm. probably never would of spoke to "leader". you posted about water on private property too, right? a lot of events for one weekend :)
What is that shelters limit?

[CB1821]

The first time I ever went to Disney World (i.e. large crowds from various back grounds) I quickly learned that it didn't mater what the rule was... there was always someone around breaking it. So basically, unless the ATC 'authority' is going to enforce its rules, the rules become meaningless when you run into an azz.

In answering the OP’s original question (“did this group infringe on proper trail edicate (sic))”, many here have given only the first part of the ATC’s position on shelters - that “hikers occupy [shelters] on a first-come, first-served basis until the shelter is full”, and have concluded that the car campers were within their rights to monopolize the shelter space.

However, if you look at the rest of what the ATC sets forth as shelter rules (“They are intended for individual hikers, not big groups. If you're planning a group hike, plan to camp out or to yield space to individual hikers who may not have the resources you do”), it would appear that they did violate the rules/etiquette.

But in the end, you are correct. There are no ATC “Po-lice”(thankfully), and even if there were, there are no sanctions attached to violating these rules (that I could find), so as you point out the rules are meaningless in the face of such “azzinine” behavior.

Most of us would be mature/smart enough to just walk away from this situation, but it did get me to thinking what would I do if it was, 40 degrees, pouring down rain, I was wet, and access to the shelter was being denied in the same manner?

[Just Bill]

[QUOTE=Just Bill;1806206] I would never classify one hiker as more deserving than another.QUOTE]
yes, neither would I. but would you call people who walk .2 miles from the nearest road and set up shop in the shelter for 3 days before turning around and walking back out those same .2 miles "hikers"?cause I sure as heck don't.
When I teach folks how to backpack their first trip is exactly what you describe- around here we call them walk in sites. You park at the parking lot and walk 1/10 to 1/2 mile into your site. That's it. For most of these folks it's the greatest trip of their lives.
Upon returning to their car the following day they very proudly call themselves BACKPACKERS! And so do I.

I'd probably rather see them out there than a shelter full of thru's dumping trash and crying their way down the trail. If anything I would be more inclined to forgive the beginners mistakes and look down on "experienced" hikers who complain about it.

[Fairway]

Well First of all, I didnt come up with it. Its called 7 rules of LNT. And I was prepared and planned becasue I brought a tent, If you would read the thread I stated that. And I was considerate of the man of whom I asked for water so kick rocks

Cool, I thought that list looked familiar. Its nice to think that planning ahead and being prepared, means simply bringing a tent. I was worried I'd have to be concerned with things like water management, having a plan B, and generally being flexible on my up coming hike next week. Also, its great to know being considerate only extends to asking permission for something you've already taken. Man this hiking thing seems so fool proof. I'll go back to kicking rocks now.

[kayak karl]

[QUOTE=tdoczi;1806253]

You and I might not call them hikers for walking .2 miles but they might consider that hiking. Once they've considered themselves hikers then they are now hikers. There isn't a test or permit to be a hiker. concidering some of the "Hikers" i have met or read posts from i avoid being called a hiker, as not to be associated with this group called "Hikers". no wonder LW says he's a walker.

[OzJacko]

For some people, walking half a mile is a major achievement.
I am amazed that someone who is out for two nights considers themselves more "entitled" than someone out for one night.
Come to think of it I am amazed that some who are out for 150 nights think themselves more "entitled" than someone out for one night.

[FarmerChef]

No crime no fowl - why on earth would you call 911?

It depends on the situation. Here in VA (afaik) open carry is permitted. I don't think twice when I see an open carry usually. Like LW said, I'm perfectly comfortable with that. But if the person with the gun gives me that sixth-sense shiver down the back of your spine and something doesn't seem right that is the time I might call the police. Otherwise, I'd just find a place to tent and call it all good.

[Another Kevin]

Hikers could never arrive making the shelter unused


Been there, done that. I remember one spring night that my daughter and I were part of a group of 6-8 tents - separate parties - surrounding a shelter. Everyone was saying to all the others things like, "if you want the shelter, take it! I'm just using it as a place to eat dinner out of the sleet!" Everyone that was out that day decided that his/her tent was warmer, so we wound up with a tent city and an empty shelter.

[HikerMom58]

It depends on the situation. Here in VA (afaik) open carry is permitted. I don't think twice when I see an open carry usually. Like LW said, I'm perfectly comfortable with that. But if the person with the gun gives me that sixth-sense shiver down the back of your spine and something doesn't seem right that is the time I might call the police. Otherwise, I'd just find a place to tent and call it all good.

I'll never forget the first time I saw someone open carry. It was about a year ago. I was in the grocery store. I live in VA. It gave me a funny feeling just b/c I'm not used to seeing it. I had to process a lot of feelings that day. :>) I'm sure I would process the same feelings again if I came into a shelter seeing the same thing. I love tenting!!! :D

[Another Kevin]

[QUOTE=tdoczi;1806253]
When I teach folks how to backpack their first trip is exactly what you describe- around here we call them walk in sites. You park at the parking lot and walk 1/10 to 1/2 mile into your site. That's it. For most of these folks it's the greatest trip of their lives.
Upon returning to their car the following day they very proudly call themselves BACKPACKERS! And so do I.

I'd probably rather see them out there than a shelter full of thru's dumping trash and crying their way down the trail. If anything I would be more inclined to forgive the beginners mistakes and look down on "experienced" hikers who complain about it.

This post made me want to stand up and cheer in so many ways.

...I teach folks how to backpack... How many of the complainers ever lift a finger to help a newbie? And yet, if we don't bring people in, the owners of our forests will start to see them as 'underutilized' and think of other things to do with them.

...For most of these folks it's the greatest trip of their lives... Anyone else here remember their first actual backpack into the woods, staying off road, not renting a space at a campground? Have all the complainers forgotten when they got bit by the bug themselves? Also - you're making sure that they have a good time on their first trip. My daughter had an atrocious guide on her first trip (with a summer camp, not with me) and it put her off backpacking for about five years. When she finally agreed to come along on a trip with me, we had a great time - and she even said that she was surprised it could be fun!

Upon returning to their car the following day they very proudly call themselves BACKPACKERS! And so do I. And so they are! The jump from being a 'frontcountry' camper to actually carrying your own gear and sleeping on the trail is a huge one. It's a much bigger difference than anything you get from upping the mileage, ranging farther on the trail, climbing higher, learning more LNT behaviour and trail etiquette, and so on. The only other developmental steps that are really even comparable are 'first time leading/first solo', 'first bushwhack', 'first overnight in deep winter', and just maybe 'first long section hike/thru-hike.' (I can't comment on the last: I'm a clueless weekender and never done more than a ten-day section, with two town stops, in my life.) You've just converted them from Joe/Jane Sixpack with their generator and TV at the campground to Joe/Jane Backpacker, who have a lot to learn but who have learnt the first important lesson: get out there!

If anything I would be more inclined to forgive the beginners mistakes and look down on "experienced" hikers who complain about it. 'Ignorant' is curable. 'Intolerant' and 'arrogant' seem to last forever, alas!

Bravo, JB! If I hadn't been a fan of yours already, I'd be one now.

[CB1821]

It depends on the situation. Here in VA (afaik) open carry is permitted. I don't think twice when I see an open carry usually. Like LW said, I'm perfectly comfortable with that.

I am not taking issue with you or LW’s comfort level around people that open carry, and there is perhaps some value to knowing that someone is armed; however, I personally wonder about the mental state of a person that feels it necessary to open carry when with a permit you can carry concealed.

As is evident in WB threads dealing with guns, many people are very uncomfortable just having them around them, much less having someone that is not obviously LE walking around with a gun strapped to their belt (Shmaybix’s response is an example).

The question that always goes through my mind under these circumstances is why would anyone want to make others uncomfortable/fearful and/or draw attention to themselves (because that is what it does)?

It is probably the case that a good portion of people that feel compelled to open carry have some self-esteem/aggression issues that make for potentially dangerous situations (my opinion and perhaps wrong). I suspect that the person the OP encountered (with gun, knife, and aggressive dog) is just an extreme example of this.

Or perhaps the person that is open carrying either could not qualify for and/or pass the conceal carry requirements, which makes me even more wary in such encounters.

FWIW, I am not anti-gun, having been in both the military and LE and currently a CCW permit holder.

[max patch]

I think its strange that people who don't care about someone carrying concealed have a problem when the weapon is clearly displayed. I'm sure there is a lesson here but I don't know what it is. Ignorance is bliss?

If someone feels the need to carry in the woods personally I'd prefer that it be out in the open. I prefer to know who I'm dealing with.

[Gonecampn]

Shelters are first come, first served. Having an armed person tell me that the shelter is full -- well, he wouldn't have to tell me twice, anyway.

+1

Sent from somewhere in the woods.

[tdoczi]

[QUOTE=tdoczi;1806253]
When I teach folks how to backpack their first trip is exactly what you describe- around here we call them walk in sites. You park at the parking lot and walk 1/10 to 1/2 mile into your site. That's it. For most of these folks it's the greatest trip of their lives.
Upon returning to their car the following day they very proudly call themselves BACKPACKERS! And so do I.

I'd probably rather see them out there than a shelter full of thru's dumping trash and crying their way down the trail. If anything I would be more inclined to forgive the beginners mistakes and look down on "experienced" hikers who complain about it.

if it is legitimately a very short overnight hike then thats fine. im talking about people who plop themselves down and sit there for days like theyve rented a cabin in the woods. that is clearly NOT what the shelter is for.

[CB1821]

I think its strange that people who don't care about someone carrying concealed have a problem when the weapon is clearly displayed. I'm sure there is a lesson here but I don't know what it is. Ignorance is bliss?

I guess I look at it as open carry is avenue of expression for someone that feels compelled to make a “statement” or is (perhaps) edging the line towards paranoid schizophrenia/personality disorder. That statement (or mental condition) and the driving force behind it is what I feel uncomfortable about.

I am more comfortable with someone that has decided that having a concealed weapon is an appropriate response to some perceived threat. First of all, if they are carrying legally, then I know that they had to meet the following criteria (at least in NC):

• has successfully completed an approved firearms safety and training course which involves the actual firing of handguns and instruction in the law governing the carrying of a concealed handgun and the use of deadly force;
• is not ineligible under federal or state law to possess, receive, or own a firearm;
• is not currently or has not been adjudicated or administratively determined to be lacking mental capacity or mentally ill;
• has not been discharged from the armed forces under conditions other than honorable;
• is or has not been adjudicated guilty or judgment continued or suspended sentence for a violent misdemeanor;
• has not had judgment continued for or free on bond or personal recognizance pending trial, appeal, or sentencing for a disqualifying criminal offense;
• has not been convicted of an impaired driving offense within three years prior to the date on which the application is submitted.

The person that is open carrying has not had to undergo such screening.
Although I have never carried when I was hiking (I will say that I considered carrying when I first started hiking with my son, and if his mother had insisted I would have), I don’t take issue with someone that has come to the personal conclusion that the probability of needing to protect themselves and/or family members (be it from people with ill intent, vicious dogs, other animals, the guy in the OP’s story – or whatever) outweighs the negatives (weight, responsibility, etc…) and is carrying legally.
I might think that the only thing that I will ever encounter while backpacking are” unicorns pooping skittles and rainbows” ;), but I am not going to judge someone that feels differently and wants to have options in case they encounter something different.
I don’t think this has anything to do with wanting to be “blissfully ignorant”.

[max patch]

Seems to me that if someone can not legally own a gun that are more apt to keep said gun hidden rather that carrying it openly on their hip.

[Jack Tarlin]

This has been said many times before, but it bears remembering: The simple expedient when it comes to dealing with the various unpleasantnesses that may occur at shelters is to avoid staying in them.

[MDSection12]

It depends on the situation. Here in VA (afaik) open carry is permitted. I don't think twice when I see an open carry usually. Like LW said, I'm perfectly comfortable with that. But if the person with the gun gives me that sixth-sense shiver down the back of your spine and something doesn't seem right that is the time I might call the police. Otherwise, I'd just find a place to tent and call it all good.
Open carry is not legal in MD, and CCWs are near impossible to get. It's almost certain that this guy was illegally carrying. I don't know that I'd bother calling, because I think I understand his reasoning despite not agreeing with it, but I'd you did he'd have to explain himself and probably take a ride.

[aficion]

Open carry is not legal in MD, and CCWs are near impossible to get. It's almost certain that this guy was illegally carrying. I don't know that I'd bother calling, because I think I understand his reasoning despite not agreeing with it, but I'd you did he'd have to explain himself and probably take a ride.

Wonder what would happen if you just walked up to the shelter, sat down on the steps, and started dialing? If open carry is illegal in MD and someone is commandeering public property by displaying a weapon and brandishing a mean dog, sure the obvious thing to do is just walk on and forget it. My sense though is that it should be reported at least. Someone coming along after you could get hurt or worse. Bad actors need to be sensibly and appropriately confronted.

[Odd Man Out]

... The jump from being a 'frontcountry' camper to actually carrying your own gear and sleeping on the trail is a huge one. It's a much bigger difference than anything you get from upping the mileage, ranging farther on the trail...

I believe this to be true. Every NP I've been too has made it clear that to avoid the crowds, you need to get off the road. But you don't really have to get very far. Just a few hundred yards will in most cases make all the difference. Even at a developed campground, the walk-in sites are usually available.


If anything I would be more inclined to forgive the beginners mistakes and look down on "experienced" hikers who complain about it. 'Ignorant' is curable. 'Intolerant' and 'arrogant' seem to last forever, alas! ...

+1. I agree with this. However, it presumes that an novice wants to be educated. I'm not convinced that is the case in the situation as it was described.

[CB1821]

Seems to me that if someone can not legally own a gun that are more apt to keep said gun hidden rather that carrying it openly on their hip.

I agree, but we’re not talking about illegal possession of a gun.

This has to do with how much assurance do we have that a person in “legal” possession of a gun in public has undergone some process that was designed to ensure that the person knows how to safely use/carry the weapon, knows the laws pertaining to the use of deadly force, and does not have any mental or criminal factors that would indicate that they would be at risk for using the firearm in an illegal way.

First – the requirements for purchasing a handgun is less stringent than getting a CCW license in NC. So even if you own the gun legally, the only thing that ensures is that you “passed” a background check. It does not mean that you have any knowledge or competence to safely carry it around other people.

In addition, “North Carolina requires a background check and a permit to purchase a handgun. However, you may openly carry a weapon without having obtained a permit”.

I took a look at the statues pertaining to open carry and handgun purchasing, and nowhere can I find that you could not use a gun that you owned prior to the permit purchase requirement, brought with you when you moved from another state, or that you simply cannot just borrow one (I am less sure on this point, but it seems to be correct). You just need a permit to purchase one.

So in some circumstances, the person parading around the streets (or in the back woods) may have not even undergone a background check.

[Likeapuma]

I'd have no problem with a legal gun owner open carrying, but him threatening people gives a black eye to all responsible owners. Add the aggressive dog to that, & he's just trouble waiting to happen... He obviously wasn't hugged enough or needs, ahem, "enhancement supplements".

Not all open carriers are troublemakers. Yes, they do it to gain attention... To the fact that it IS legal (in certain states) . And probably also because it's much more comfortable than concealed carry in their waistband.

[Hill Ape]

personally I think the original story sounds a little too perfect, especially when placed next to the posters water stealing thread. my biggest question, how long can I keep cheese in my backpack before it spoils?

[Rasty]

personally I think the original story sounds a little too perfect, especially when placed next to the posters water stealing thread. my biggest question, how long can I keep cheese in my backpack before it spoils?

What kind of cheese? Hard? Semi-Hard? Blue? Washed rind? Semi soft? Aged? Processed? So many cheeses, so many answers

[Another Kevin]

What kind of cheese? Hard? Semi-Hard? Blue? Washed rind? Semi soft? Aged? Processed? So many cheeses, so many answers

Cheese doesn't spoil. It turns to another kind of cheese. But not every kind of cheese is edible.

[kayak karl]

personally I think the original story sounds a little too perfect, especially when placed next to the posters water stealing thread. my biggest question, how long can I keep cheese in my backpack before it spoils? what?; dog, guns, knives, shelters, entitlement, section vs. thur hikers and etiquette all in a one minute encounter! It could happen ;)

[Rasty]

Cheese doesn't spoil. It turns to another kind of cheese. But not every kind of cheese is edible.

I forgot a 10# block of Cheddar once in a refrigerator that was inside a closet at the club I worked at for almost two years. We thought the refrigerator was turned off and empty. The cheese was coated in black mold. I broke it in half and the cheese looked amazing inside. We didn't use it because black molds are usually dangerous.

[Likeapuma]

Would the OP have an issue if said car campers gave him free food? Or... Are section & day hikers expected to do that now?

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

[Slo-go'en]

Would the OP have an issue if said car campers gave him free food? Or... Are section & day hikers expected to do that now?


Getting free food from car campers is a skill which has to be learned. It can be rewarding.

[Hill Ape]

I'm sure one of you will know the answer, and since the topic is obviously cheese ;-) when I was in france I saw this cheese that had mites? or something on it, little creepy crawlies, considered a delicacy. What was that called? What were those things? They were obviously alive. I passed on trying it, regretted it since.

[Hill Ape]

never mind; mimolette and milbenkase

[skell23]

Wonder what would happen if you just walked up to the shelter, sat down on the steps, and started dialing? If open carry is illegal in MD and someone is commandeering public property by displaying a weapon and brandishing a mean dog, sure the obvious thing to do is just walk on and forget it. My sense though is that it should be reported at least. Someone coming along after you could get hurt or worse. Bad actors need to be sensibly and appropriately confronted.
Hmmm - guy in the woods carrying an illegal gun. I don't think sitting down on the shelter steps and dialing the authorities would help. If your uncomfortable move on and call once out of sight.

[Rasty]

I'm sure one of you will know the answer, and since the topic is obviously cheese ;-) when I was in france I saw this cheese that had mites? or something on it, little creepy crawlies, considered a delicacy. What was that called? What were those things? They were obviously alive. I passed on trying it, regretted it since.

Mimolette is an Edam cheese with mites. Casu Marzul is made with maggot assistance. Both look yummy.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

No crime no fowl - why on earth would you call 911?

My take was that the OP was describing a hostile confrontation with the guy with the gun and dog. I'm with FC....I'd leave the site entirely, and call 911 and ask for non-emergency dispatch to report the carry and verify it was lawful. No one has the right to intimidate others (through arms and angry pets) out of staying in a shelter. If the gun is lawful, so be it...I'd have moved on...f it wasn't, then I performed a civic duty. Absolutely I would make the call.

[ralph23]

This should be interesting as I was at Cowell Shelter on the night described! My buddy and I left Pine Grove State Park on Friday for a 3 day sobo section to Harpers Ferry. We pulled into Cowell around 6:30 pm after a long day (about 26 miles) and were quickly greeted by our aptly described gun toting, knife bearing, dog accompanied, shelter mate. We went about water refill, eating, and setting up for bed as we were exhausted. By 8 pm we were in our bags trying to sleep.

Here is a list of people staying at the shelter:
5 off-duty police officers (3 of which stayed in hammocks outside of the shelter)
My buddy and I
Two older gentlemen that arrived after us
*That makes 6 in the shelter*

Now for some gossipy details. As soon as we walked into camp I noticed the guns and knives. I was very shocked at the open carry but it soon came out that they were police officers and I felt a little more at ease. The 5 officers (4 male and 1 female) were rather short with us but not rude. They weren't happy about having shelter mates, but such is life.

The dog. The dog was out of control. It was running around without a leash, laying down on our sleeping bags, taking off through the woods and poison ivy, then laying down on our bags again. It was all up in my face as I was trying to eat. I would go on a rant about unleashed dogs but I will leave it as this instead. Most state laws only allow law enforcement to get involved with someone's pet once that animal has bitten. Regardless that the animal has shown some tendency to be mis-behaved or aggressive, it has to bite your face off before you can say anything. It's a great system that relies on responsible owners to do the right thing, but the world is fully populated by idiots.

The knife. People seem to think that hiking on the AT is somewhat akin to bushwhacking through Patagonia. And to be done correctly, requires a large knife to be worn on your hip and prominently displayed to all. Lest you encounter some type of wild animal that you would have to fight off? Or maybe it's to cut off your arm in case it becomes lodged somewhere? Maybe to ward off other hikers? Hell if I know.

The gun. Let me start by saying I am truly thankful for the job police officers do. But, these guys (and one gal) were douches. Carrying a gun prominently displayed on your hip, while hiking on the crowded AT, can have no other intended effect than to intimidate people. Why else would you choose to do this. He even had it outside of his rain gear! This group stayed up till after 10 pm drinking and carrying on, telling really bad police stories egged on by the two older hikers, and had little respect for the fact that we were tired and trying to sleep. I'm not implying that they should have gone to sleep because we did, but the world operates on an implied understanding that you respect other people. They were very noisy and it was even worse when they went to turn in. The noise and light created while they emptied their packs and set up their bags (after 10 pm) was ridiculous. All the while, my buddy and I stayed quiet and never complained. For fear of the gun and because it's a public shelter.

The next morning. We got up at 4:30 am to hit the trail as we had a long hike to Harpers Ferry. We tried to be as quiet and respectful as we could but wouldn't you know that one of the gun toting guys has to complain about our head lamp. After all their drinking and carrying on the night before, somehow he couldn't keep his mouth shut and roll over while we tried to pack up. I was pretty pissed about the complaint and made sure to speak loud enough to wake up the entire shelter at that point.

In retrospect, I risked my life talking back to the cop who had the gun at 4:30 am. I will never stay in a shelter with a stranger again. We come prepared to camp but appreciate a shelter if it's raining. Never again. You made the right choice by staying in your tent. All you missed was a drunken night of bad stories with a bunch of idiots. The discussion on why you have to beat your teenage son/daughter to get their respect was especially enlightening. Even though the shelter was not full, you made the right choice by leaving. Had I heard you come into camp I would have gladly offered you space in the shelter.

[danielvh]

I think that any shelters should be for thru-hikers first and foremost - but then again, if I was hiking, I'd prefer to bring a tent.

[Likeapuma]

In retrospect, I risked my life talking back to the cop who had the gun at 4:30 am.

I was unaware that talking to a gun owner was hazardous to your health, akin to fighting lions with your bare hands lol

[Lone Wolf]

I think that any shelters should be for thru-hikers first and foremost - but then again, if I was hiking, I'd prefer to bring a tent.

oh really? why is that?

[SouthMark]

I think that any shelters should be for thru-hikers first and foremost - but then again, if I was hiking, I'd prefer to bring a tent.

Should motels be for cross country travelers first and for most?

[Lone Wolf]

dude's a troll

[MuddyWaters]

Nobody has any preferrential right to a shelter.
First come, first served. End of story.

Im always amazed at the hikers that ONLY sleep at a shelters, and always sleep in it as well, even when they have a tent.
I suppose some are really scared to be alone, and especially scared to be away from a man-made structure when the sun goes down.

An experienced smart hiker will stop and chat, maybe eat dinner, and decide if the company is acceptable to them or not before deciding to stay even near a shelter.

If you stay in shelters you will be irritated by snoring, talking, headlamps, midnight pee trips, tossing and turning, mice, insects. And that is if you arent subjected to fornication or worse. The only good reason to sleep in one is rain IMO. Its easier to pack up and get going in morning without packing up a wet tent in the rain.

[Last Call]

VERY enlightening post by Ralph23.

[aficion]

Hmmm - guy in the woods carrying an illegal gun. I don't think sitting down on the shelter steps and dialing the authorities would help. If your uncomfortable move on and call once out of sight.

Guy is surrounded by people. He is declaring his unleashed dog to be a problem. Off duty cop or not he is in violation of the spirit and intent law, and a threat to those who may come behind you. I would be inclined to get enough involved to get the dog leashed and find out what the deal with the open carry is. If that took sitting down and dialing, I would do it. What is he going to do? Shoot me for dialing my phone in front of ten people?
Swiss cheese is what I'd bring to a shoot out since it is already full of holes.

[stranger]

Rules are irrelevant, it's the enforcement of rules that counts, if you go to shelters you will run into this ****, people are idiots and shelters attract people, especially those close to roads on weekends

[gumball]

This should be interesting as I was at Cowell Shelter on the night described! My buddy and I left Pine Grove State Park on Friday for a 3 day sobo section to Harpers Ferry. We pulled into Cowell around 6:30 pm after a long day (about 26 miles) and were quickly greeted by our aptly described gun toting, knife bearing, dog accompanied, shelter mate. We went about water refill, eating, and setting up for bed as we were exhausted. By 8 pm we were in our bags trying to sleep.

Here is a list of people staying at the shelter:
5 off-duty police officers (3 of which stayed in hammocks outside of the shelter)
My buddy and I
Two older gentlemen that arrived after us
*That makes 6 in the shelter*

Now for some gossipy details. As soon as we walked into camp I noticed the guns and knives. I was very shocked at the open carry but it soon came out that they were police officers and I felt a little more at ease. The 5 officers (4 male and 1 female) were rather short with us but not rude. They weren't happy about having shelter mates, but such is life.

The dog. The dog was out of control. It was running around without a leash, laying down on our sleeping bags, taking off through the woods and poison ivy, then laying down on our bags again. It was all up in my face as I was trying to eat. I would go on a rant about unleashed dogs but I will leave it as this instead. Most state laws only allow law enforcement to get involved with someone's pet once that animal has bitten. Regardless that the animal has shown some tendency to be mis-behaved or aggressive, it has to bite your face off before you can say anything. It's a great system that relies on responsible owners to do the right thing, but the world is fully populated by idiots.

The knife. People seem to think that hiking on the AT is somewhat akin to bushwhacking through Patagonia. And to be done correctly, requires a large knife to be worn on your hip and prominently displayed to all. Lest you encounter some type of wild animal that you would have to fight off? Or maybe it's to cut off your arm in case it becomes lodged somewhere? Maybe to ward off other hikers? Hell if I know.

The gun. Let me start by saying I am truly thankful for the job police officers do. But, these guys (and one gal) were douches. Carrying a gun prominently displayed on your hip, while hiking on the crowded AT, can have no other intended effect than to intimidate people. Why else would you choose to do this. He even had it outside of his rain gear! This group stayed up till after 10 pm drinking and carrying on, telling really bad police stories egged on by the two older hikers, and had little respect for the fact that we were tired and trying to sleep. I'm not implying that they should have gone to sleep because we did, but the world operates on an implied understanding that you respect other people. They were very noisy and it was even worse when they went to turn in. The noise and light created while they emptied their packs and set up their bags (after 10 pm) was ridiculous. All the while, my buddy and I stayed quiet and never complained. For fear of the gun and because it's a public shelter.

The next morning. We got up at 4:30 am to hit the trail as we had a long hike to Harpers Ferry. We tried to be as quiet and respectful as we could but wouldn't you know that one of the gun toting guys has to complain about our head lamp. After all their drinking and carrying on the night before, somehow he couldn't keep his mouth shut and roll over while we tried to pack up. I was pretty pissed about the complaint and made sure to speak loud enough to wake up the entire shelter at that point.

In retrospect, I risked my life talking back to the cop who had the gun at 4:30 am. I will never stay in a shelter with a stranger again. We come prepared to camp but appreciate a shelter if it's raining. Never again. You made the right choice by staying in your tent. All you missed was a drunken night of bad stories with a bunch of idiots. The discussion on why you have to beat your teenage son/daughter to get their respect was especially enlightening. Even though the shelter was not full, you made the right choice by leaving. Had I heard you come into camp I would have gladly offered you space in the shelter.


I think that's the shelter with the black widow spiders still bounding around...tents are so much better.

[Sarcasm the elf]

They were probably pretty sloppy with food, both cooking, eating and storage. Hopefully they got moused pretty good.

I was thinking the same thing. In my experience the only ones that get priority for staying in the shelters are the mice and rats. :eek:

[Teacher & Snacktime]

There you are Elf! Everyone is looking for you on WOO's group....please check in :).

[Monkeywrench]

so yes therefore, thrus > sectioners> car campers.

Absolutely not. Shelters, with the exception of places like the Smokies where they are reserved ahead of time, are first-come first-served. How far you walked to get there is immaterial.

It is generally accepted and encouraged etiquette that large groups carry their own shelter and avoid monopolizing shelters for themselves.

[RCBear]

I woulda asked his full name, reminded him that MD doesnt allow open carry, called him an ******* and let him know that I was getting off trail to call the authorities, unless he gave up the shelter. Course, I tend to be in the stubborn side and wouldnt necessarily recommend that approach to all. Stick within your personality boundries in thise types of situations :-)

Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk 2

[ChuckT]

Wait, just a second - did I read correctly?

This was an off-duty Law Enforcement Officer? And he told you to "move along"?

If the reporting is accurate - then I say that this jerk was not behaving in a professional manner and does not deserve any badge what-so-ever.

cvt

[T.S.Kobzol]

Gotta love people with a military boner

Bumblebee Tuna

[aficion]

Gotta love people with a military boner

Bumblebee Tuna

.....'s make the world go round.

[UnfamousK]

yaaaaawwwwwwnnnnn.....same old arguments.....was this guy an azz? ABSOLUTELY. Is it ridiculous for people to think thru, section, or weekend warriors have any more/less rights to anything on the trail? ABSOLUTELY.
Be prepared, carry your shelter, whether it's 10 townies and a mean pooch or 10 thru hikers....a crowded shelter is a crowded shelter...first come first serve.....

This guy was an ass and ive experienced people like him the past....ive also gotten some delicious food and drink from weekend warriors.....you gotta take the good with the bad

[xokie]

First come is the answer but who wants to stay with a bunch of frightened people who don't have sense enough to carry a descent firearm?

[aficion]

I think car campers should camp in their car and shelter campers should camp in shelters, then I won't have to be bothered with any of them.

[MDSection12]

First come is the answer but who wants to stay with a bunch of frightened people who don't have sense enough to carry a descent firearm?
I think a Glock should be sufficient for either ascending or descending. :p

[winger]

I think car campers should camp in their car and shelter campers should camp in shelters, then I won't have to be bothered with any of them.

Best reply in this whole damn thread!

[Sarcasm the elf]

First come is the answer but who wants to stay with a bunch of frightened people who don't have sense enough to carry a descent firearm?


I think a Glock should be sufficient for either ascending or descending. :p

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ck7ot9_HZgA/UAVjY8dKrqI/AAAAAAAAAMY/TRS-NXfnvuk/s640/45pic.jpg

[squeezebox]

IMHO you gatta be a real A--H-L- to carry a pistol in the woods, No reason to endanger other people. If you can't get it up, try Viagra instead of a gun.

[Tuckahoe]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ck7ot9_HZgA/UAVjY8dKrqI/AAAAAAAAAMY/TRS-NXfnvuk/s640/45pic.jpg

Damn Elf, I knew there was a reason that I liked you... .45acp, the cartridge given onto man throught His prophet, Saint John Moses Browning.

OR

.45acp, cause 11.33mm just aint right.

[squeezebox]

People kill People, With Guns.

[Tuckahoe]

IMHO you gatta be a real A--H-L- to carry a pistol in the woods, No reason to endanger other people. If you can't get it up, try Viagra instead of a gun.

So Bryce, you dont think that folks should carry a gun in the woods, geat, I think you are wrong but I can respect your opinion. But why do you find it necessary to call folks a$$ holes and bring erectile dysfunction into it? Why? Its funny because I find those who oppose the right to be armed immediately head right for the small dick argument, rather than the facts of the issue at hand. Projecting?

[q-tip]

The greatest thing about shelters is that you can use your tent.

[Sarcasm the elf]

IMHO you gatta be a real A--H-L- to carry a pistol in the woods, No reason to endanger other people. If you can't get it up, try Viagra instead of a gun.


People kill People, With Guns.


http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/troll_b_gone.gif (http://media.photobucket.com/user/DoyleHargraves/media/troll_b_gone.gif.html)

[Rasty]

The greatest thing about shelters is that you can use your tent.

Bringing logic into this won't help anything. :rolleyes:

It is hilarious that some want to avoid undesirable people, muddy dogs and noise but choose the one place in the woods with the highest probability of encountering undesirable people, muddy dogs and noise.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Bringing logic into this won't help anything. :rolleyes:

It is hilarious that some want to avoid undesirable people, muddy dogs and noise but choose the one place in the woods with the highest probability of encountering undesirable people, muddy dogs and noise.

The unfortunate thing is that in some states (like mine) you are required to stay at the shelter sites. :(

[Rasty]

The unfortunate thing is that in some states (like mine) you are required to stay at the shelter sites. :(

Reminds me of my favourite Judas Priest song

[Pedaling Fool]

Yeah, that means I was breakin the law in Ct:D

[RCBear]

IMHO you gatta be a real A--H-L- to carry a pistol in the woods, No reason to endanger other people. If you can't get it up, try Viagra instead of a gun.

One of the sillier comments I've seen in some time. Why would carrying a pistol in the woods endanger others? Im no more a danger to others in the woods with my sidearm than I would with a hatchet. And why do your kind always relate firearms to sexual disfunction? What a clown statement.

The ones that you would be worried about in the woods with a handgun are the same ones that you would be worried about with any other tool that could be used as a weapon.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk 2

[aficion]

One of the sillier comments I've seen in some time. Why would carrying a pistol in the woods endanger others? Im no more a danger to others in the woods with my sidearm than I would with a hatchet. And why do your kind always relate firearms to sexual disfunction? What a clown statement.

The ones that you would be worried about in the woods with a handgun are the same ones that you would be worried about with any other tool that could be used as a weapon.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk 2

This^ .

[RCBear]

One of the sillier comments I've seen in some time. Why would carrying a pistol in the woods endanger others? Im no more a danger to others in the woods with my sidearm than I would with a hatchet. And why do your kind always relate firearms to sexual disfunction? What a clown statement.

The ones that you would be worried about in the woods with a handgun are the same ones that you would be worried about with any other tool that could be used as a weapon.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk 2

Recently did a hike in, camp 3 nights, hike back out with my brother. I had packed my sidearm, im quite sure my brother probably did, but it was never discussed. Why would it be. The reason I knew he had a leatherman?? Because he used that tool. The reason I dont know conclusively if he brought his pistol with him?? Because there was no chore that required it.

See how that works yet?

Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk 2

[rickb]

People kill People, With Guns.

For the 5 thru hikers (yes, thru hikers -- all many hundreds of miles into their end to end journeys) this in not entirely true. One was killed with an axe. The other killers all had guns, but that instrument may not have been the actual cause of death to one of the bound victims in one of the crimes.

The only long distance section hiker murdered a couple years ago on the trail was killed by asphyxiation, but there are no widely know details on that. In fact, the authorities would not even confirm his death was a homicide-- you would think that a partially buried body would have made that obvious-- until 6 months after the body was found, when the coroner was required to make his findings public. With so little info from the authorities and his killer still on the loose, there is no way to know if a gun was involved.

There is absolutely no proof that any of these hikers would be alive if they had hand guns, for protection. In this country carry laws vary by state, so it is virtually impossible for a thru hiker who is not active/retired law enforcement to legally bring a gun. Almost none do.

Many wise people will also point out that the death of 5 thru hikers at the hand of a killer on the AT is too small of a number to be of a concern. After all, over 14,000 people have hiked the entire length of the AT without being killed. Simple math shows the risk is not great-- for every 3000 thru hikers who makes it all the way, only 1 thru hiker had his/her hike cut short by a capital crime.

Besides, the thru hikers that were killed we not hiking in the big northbound bubble, right?

[Lone Wolf]

IMHO you gatta be a real A--H-L- to carry a pistol in the woods.

look in the dictionary under a..h.le, there's my picture

[Sailing_Faith]

look in the dictionary under a..h.le, there's my picture

Your just showing off now.....

[hikerboy57]

Your just showing off now.....
but he seems so nice sometimes....

[winger]

People kill People, With Guns.


Exactly why I carry mine....and your point is?

[aficion]

Exactly why I carry mine....and your point is?

People kill people with knives. That is not why I carry mine.

[Rasty]

People kill people with knives. That is not why I carry mine.

People kill people with frozen legs of lamb. I tried carrying mine but it kept thawing out and I kept getting hungry.

[Gray Blazer]

If I stayed in a shelter armed, I'd be worried about shooting my lips off when the mice kept running across my face.

[Gray Blazer]

People kill people with frozen legs of lamb. I tried carrying mine but it kept thawing out and I kept getting hungry.
You just want to get rid of the evidence.

[Gray Blazer]

Maybe you could train the mice to attack. Who was that guy? Willard?

[hikerboy57]

If I stayed in a shelter armed, I'd be worried about shooting my lips off when the mice kept running across my face.

you should abandon the idea of pepper spray as well.

[Gray Blazer]

I was thinking more of abandoning shelters.

[hikerboy57]

I was thinking more of abandoning shelters.

oh,thats better

[Gray Blazer]

I need to ask Rasty where I can get salt spray in case the attackers actually like pepper.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I need to ask Rasty where I can get salt spray in case the attackers actually like pepper.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm

[But don't try it yourself]

[hikerboy57]

think id rather throw bullets

[xokie]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ck7ot9_HZgA/UAVjY8dKrqI/AAAAAAAAAMY/TRS-NXfnvuk/s640/45pic.jpg

There is this. And then there's the G. ugly factor.

[Rasty]

I need to ask Rasty where I can get salt spray in case the attackers actually like pepper.

It is an very advanced recipe for Salt Spray.

Step 1 - Heat Water to above 140 degrees
Step 2 - Add Salt to Taste
Step 3 - Stir
Step 4 - Fill Spray Bottle
Step 5 - Spray

[Sarcasm the elf]

There is this. And then there's the G. ugly factor.

"Isn't it more accurate if you hold the pistol sideways?" :datz

[hikerboy57]

"Isn't it more accurate if you hold the pistol sideways?" :datznot necessarily more accurate, but definitely more effective.

[Tuckahoe]

Hee hee


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbsvGKoYK0c&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Sarcasm the elf]

Hee hee


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbsvGKoYK0c&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Funny as that is (and I did laugh while watching it), I've always understood that Glock has a reputation for extreme reliability. I've never owned one, but have fired hundreds of rounds out if many of them that my friends have. The only problems I've ever heard regarding glocks involve idiots that don't know enough to check that the chamber is unloaded before disassembly.

[RCBear]

Funny as that is (and I did laugh while watching it), I've always understood that Glock has a reputation for extreme reliability. I've never owned one, but have fired hundreds of rounds out if many of them that my friends have. The only problems I've ever heard regarding glocks involve idiots that don't know enough to check that the chamber is unloaded before disassembly.

The biggest problem with Glocks is that are too ugly to go in my holster. I don't buy ugly packs or pistols.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk 2

[Gray Blazer]

It is an very advanced recipe for Salt Spray.

Step 1 - Heat Water to above 140 degrees
Step 2 - Add Salt to Taste
Step 3 - Stir
Step 4 - Fill Spray Bottle
Step 5 - Spray

I knew you would know.

[Sarcasm the elf]

The biggest problem with Glocks is that are too ugly to go in my holster. I don't buy ugly packs or pistols.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk 2

Well yeah, I can't argue with that one...

[Tuckahoe]

Funny as that is (and I did laugh while watching it), I've always understood that Glock has a reputation for extreme reliability. I've never owned one, but have fired hundreds of rounds out if many of them that my friends have. The only problems I've ever heard regarding glocks involve idiots that don't know enough to check that the chamber is unloaded before disassembly.

Nothing wrong with Glocks really, hating on them though is as much fun as hating on 9mm

But silly me I had to own a polymer framed pistol, so I went and bought this...
24637

I console myself, by believing this is what younget when a 1911 has its way with a Glock... atleast its still not 9mm.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Nothing wrong with Glocks really, hating on them though is as much fun as hating on 9mm

But silly me I had to own a polymer framed pistol, so I went and bought this...
24637

I console myself, by believing this is what younget when a 1911 has its way with a Glock... atleast its still not 9mm.

Interesting looks, how do you like it? I don't know much about CZ's. Only .40's I have experience with are Glocks and the H&K USP Compact.

[aficion]

The biggest problem with Glocks is that are too ugly to go in my holster. I don't buy ugly packs or pistols.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk 2

Glock 19 is exactly ugly enough for me.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Glock 19 is exactly ugly enough for me.


You should have gone with a Glock 18.

[aficion]

You should have gone with a Glock 18.

I should have gone with French citizenship. I'd be eating truffles as we squeak.

[Rasty]

I should have gone with French citizenship. I'd be eating truffles as we squeak.

The Italians have the good truffles

[Sarcasm the elf]

I should have gone with French citizenship. I'd be eating truffles as we squeak.

I'm missing the French connection. (No pun intended)

[aficion]

I'm missing the French connection. (No pun intended)

Mon Dieu! Permettez-mois d'etre claire.
http://truthaboutguns.zippykid.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/courtesy-iwatchstuff.com_.jpg (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/04/sebastian-ordelheide/mon-dieu-a-review-of-french-gun-laws/courtesy-iwatchstuff-com/)

[Tuckahoe]

Interesting looks, how do you like it? I don't know much about CZ's. Only .40's I have experience with are Glocks and the H&K USP Compact.

I love it! Those Bohemians have always made great firearms. The biggest complaint for me with a Glock is its ergonomics, especially the angel and contours of the grip. This CZ fits like it was molded. It certainly looks blocky, but with the CZ the slide rides inside the frame, sitting it lower. And as one use to 1911s, it includes the parts to convert from double action, with a decocker, to single action with a slide safety to carry cocked and locked. Very accurate and reliable.

[Gray Blazer]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm

[But don't try it yourself]

I guess they would eventually die of high blood pressure.

[Rasty]

I guess they would eventually die of high blood pressure.

Nice Avatar by the way!

[aficion]

Nice Avatar by the way!http://art.ngfiles.com/images/2/theo-art_i-am-the-walrus.png:sun

[aficion]

I guess they would eventually die of high blood pressure.http://www.pxleyes.com/images/contests/random-art/fullsize/I-am-the-eggman-4c96bb7dc466c.jpg

[hikerboy57]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuMsi_nE6rc

[Train Wreck]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuMsi_nE6rc

That blue meanie stole my stool!

[Lala1008]

[QUOTE=tdoczi;1806253]
When I teach folks how to backpack their first trip is exactly what you describe- around here we call them walk in sites. You park at the parking lot and walk 1/10 to 1/2 mile into your site. That's it. For most of these folks it's the greatest trip of their lives.
Upon returning to their car the following day they very proudly call themselves BACKPACKERS! And so do I.

I'd probably rather see them out there than a shelter full of thru's dumping trash and crying their way down the trail. If anything I would be more inclined to forgive the beginners mistakes and look down on "experienced" hikers who complain about it.
Right on! The AT is there for all to use and enjoy!

[Gray Blazer]

Nice Avatar by the way!

I thought you might like it.

[Tom Murphy]

first come first serve

the idea of "thrus > sectioners> car campers" is so wrong headed

[MuddyWaters]

I should have gone with French citizenship. I'd be eating truffles as we squeak.


I worked in France for a while. I miss white raisin croissants with cream cheese for breakfast, and eating outside at restaurants

That and the topless beaches.

[Sarcasm the elf]

That and the topless beaches.

I have to wonder if the people that decided that America shouldn't have topless beaches were being puritanical, or whether they simply had the foresight to anticipate the current average BMI of the citizenry. :eek:

[waterman1148]

wait wait, you have a problem with another citizen using public property that their taxes paid for as well, but you're willing to trespass onto folks private property for a drink of water? Man seriously

'nuff said

[hikerboy57]

That and the topless beaches.

I have to wonder if the people that decided that America shouldn't have topless beaches were being puritanical, or whether they simply had the foresight to anticipate the current average BMI of the citizenry. :eek: some things are better left to the imagination there are a few sections of the beach here that are topless unfortunately it's rarely people that you would like to see topless

[MuddyWaters]

some things are better left to the imagination there are a few sections of the beach here that are topless unfortunately it's rarely people that you would like to see topless

definitely have to take the bad with the good there too. Fortunately, people are much leaner than here in the US, however 70 yr old fried eggs arent something anyone should be subjected too.

I can do without the men in speedos though, but thats just me. YMMV.