View Full Version : Questions about Permits
I am in the planning stages of a thru hike of the JMT next August. I'm a little confused about the permitting process. I do understand I can't apply until 6 month before, faxing it in, possible walk up, but here are my initial questions:
1. What is the difference in the following beginning trail heads: Happy Isles to Sunrise/Merced Lake Pass Thru; Happy Isles to LYV ( camp first night in LYV? ); Happy Isles to Illioutte
2. How about starting at Glacier Point to LYV? Any downsides to this?
3. Same question about GP to Illioutte?
4. There will be 5 or 6 in our group. Can we each submit an application to improve our chances in the "lottery"? . I know it might cost us a little more? but given our logistics/travel I'm trying to minimize any issues.
5. The application asks for ending trailhead. Is that Mt. Whitney or Whitney Portal or???
Thanks in advance for any help and advice you can give me to improve our chances of starting on the date we hope to.
I hiked the JMT solo this year and had many of the same planning questions. Hopefully the following information will be of some help:
First, if you haven't already, it is important to visit the Yosemite wilderness permit page and review all of the information: http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/wildpermits.htm. In particular, look at the trailhead quota page at http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/trailheads.htm. Since your group size is 5 or 6 people, that definitely creates some issues with getting all of the group in on certain trailheads. Specifically, both the HI>>Sunrise/Merced Passthrough and GP>>LYV quotas for reservations is just six per day meaning that you would probably need to be the first permit application processed for that day to get approved.
Some specific answers:
1. Happy Isles to Sunrise/Merced passthrough permit means that you must hike past Little Yosemite Valley and camp beyond the JMT/Half Dome junction for the first night of the trip. Happy Isles to Little Yosemite Valley permit means that you MUST camp at Little Yosemite Valley for your first night. Happy Isles to Illilouette permit requires that you detour off the JMT and camp in the Illilouette Creek area. The trailhead map PDF shows how far you have to go on the first night on each of the permits: http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/upload/Wilderness-Trailheads_07-14-2013_28x38-1.pdf
2. The Glacier Point to Little Yosemite Valley permit is fine for a JMT start except you will miss the first four miles of the JMT from Happy Isles and you will need to get up to Glacier Point to start the trip ($25 bus ride). This was the permit I got when I made the reservation although I was able to change it to HI>>LYV when I got to the park.
3. Glacier Point to Illilouette permit requires camping in the Illiouette Creek area the first night. Same other downsides as #2.
4. You can each submit separate applications and I think this WILL increase the chances that one or more of the individual permits will be granted BUT are you willing to break up the group to do this and then meet up later sometime in the backcountry after the first night? If so, that might be an approach worth considering.
5. Ending trailhead should be Whitney Portal assuming you are hiking the entire trail.
BTW, the first day to submit an application is exactly 24 weeks (168 days) prior to the hike, not six months ahead: http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/wildpermitdates.htm. The process is pretty archaic and involves faxing the application before the office opens on that exact day.
One final thought.... although the permit reservation system has a lot of drama associated with it, I had no trouble strolling into the permit office in Yosemite Valley on a Sunday in August and changing my permit from GP>>LYV to HI>>LYV. They didn't have my preferred option of HI>>Pass through but staying at Little Yosemite Valley was actually OK since I used the afternoon to hike Half Dome. Be sure to include a half dome permit request on the form if you intend to take that side trip. Of course, I hiked solo ... and 5-6 people seeking a permit would likely have a more difficult time than I had.
The JMT was the best trip I've ever taken by a long shot ... all the permit hassles are worth it!
CarlZ993
10-17-2013, 19:28
I hiked the JMT in 2004. I asked for & got permits for four people. I'm not sure if the permit system now allows for an either/or permit request of HI->Sunrise Pass-thru or HI->LYV. The 'pass-thru-permit' allotment is 6 & the LYV permit allotment is 18. I'd prefer the pass-thru if I hike it next year (undecided about doing the JMT again or trying the Colorado Trail). But, I'd take the other if necessary.
[QUOTE=Jagger;1806462]I am in the planning stages of a thru hike of the JMT next August. I'm a little confused about the permitting process. I do understand I can't apply until 6 month before, faxing it in, possible walk up, but here are my initial questions:
1. What is the difference in the following beginning trail heads: Happy Isles to Sunrise/Merced Lake Pass Thru; Happy Isles to LYV ( camp first night in LYV? ); Happy Isles to Illioutte
2. How about starting at Glacier Point to LYV? Any downsides to this?
3. Same question about GP to Illioutte?
You must not have looked at the TOPOGRAPHICAL Yosemite NP trail map because much of what you are asking would be evident if you had done that. First, YES there are various options for a starting trailhead for a JMT thru-hike but time does not allow us to get into the details of all those options. I'll go over a couple of the options. The typical starting trailhead for a JMT thru-hike is the official JMT northern terminus at Happy Isles but that also makes it the most popular starting trailhead for a JMT thru-hiking permit and is the most competitive to obtain. Starting at Glacier Pt is a fine alternative starting trailhead for a JMT thru-hike however take note: 1) U have to get to GP either by hiking up to it via trail or getting a ride to it via a rather round about road from Yosemite Valley(there are shuttles and buses that run here!) 2) Notice I said get up to it! GP is on one of the rims. It's called Yosemite Valley for a reason! 3) IMO, if you do start at GP DO NOT hike back down to Yosemite Valley to go by Happy Isles TH. If you do you'd be going down in elevation to climb right back up via the JMT or the Mist Tr by Vernal and Nevada Falls. If you start at GP I recommend you take the Panorama Tr past Illioutte Falls and connect with the JMT proper while checking out both impressive Vernal and Nevada Falls. Looking at a YNP trail map this will be obvious. Another possibility is starting at Wawona Tunnel(Tunnel View), hiking up to Inspiration Pt via the Pohono Tr, and continuing on the Pohono Tr past Stanford, Crocker, Dewey, and Taft Points(ALL with outstanding views overlooking Yosemite Valley), additionally taking in Sentinel Dome and reaching GP and continuing on the Panorama Tr past Illioutte Falls and connecting with the JMT proper. IMO, and I don't usually share this, this is the easiest starting trailhead permit to obtain for a JMT thru-hike. Very few know about this option and even fewer take advantage of it and the NP Rangers don't usually advertise this as a starting trailhead for the JMT. AND, the kicker is, the Pohono Trail is mostly a rather level trail, once up to the rim, with IMO some of the BEST views of and across Yosemite Valley. It will however add about 13 miles TO GLACIER PT. If you do this there is a nice campsite on Bridal Veil Creek along the way to GP. This is the creek that provides the water for Bridal Veil Falls. *Get to this campsite early at the end of the day!* You can walk from Bridal Veil Falls parking lot(check out the waterfall first!) up the old CLOSED breaking asphalt entrance road into Yosemite Valley to the Inspiration Pt/Pohono Tralhead. The trailhead is signed via a large old iron trailhead sign - Inspiration Pt. This is personally my preferred starting trailhead for a JMT SOBO thru-hike. If you start at GP make sure you back track just a bit ONCE ON THE JMT so that you get to see Vernal Falls most easily accomplished by viewing at it from the overlook atop Vernal Falls(look at the Yosemite NP trail map and follow the signage!). Another option, a less competitive to obtain JMT permit option, but a rather round about possibly time consuming one, is start at Tuolomne Meadows and NOBO hike(takes one long or two shorter days) into Yosemite Valley to Happy Isles Trailhead. Then take a shuttle bus back to Tuolomne Meadows and do the rest of the JMT going SOBO. This is usually done on two permits - one from TM to HI and one from TM to the JMT southern terminus. That's the only way I've accomplished this feat - two permits. It's easier to obtain a JMT hike permit starting at TM rather than HI!
4. Don't know about that. I've always soloed the JMT.
5. It's actually both. Get your JMT thru-hiking permit for Mt Whitney! This will not affect you obtaining a JMT thru-hiking permit. The JMT's official southern terminus is atop Mt Whitney. It's the highest summit in the Lower 48. It's my best guess 99% of JMT thru-hikers end their hikes at Whitney Portal Parking Lot. In other words even though the JMT officially ends atop 14 k ft + Mt Whitney THAT IS NOT THE END OF THE HIKE - unless you get a helicopter to come pick you up from atop the summit! Add on about another 12 miles to your JMT thru-hike DOWN from Mt Whitney and out to a road - the Whitney Portal Trailhead Parking Lot. If for some reason you do not want to summit at the official JMT southern terminus, the summit of Mt Whitney, you just hike over Whitney Portal down to the parking lot to finish your hike. DO NOT MISS summitting Mt Whitney! It's the cherry on top at the end of a fantastic hike. Sorry for all the run on paragraphs. My Return key isn't functioning. Hope that helps.
MuddyWaters
10-17-2013, 20:54
"After the first night, you may camp wherever you can hike to within the wilderness."
However, there is nothing in the rules that specifically says you can only get there by hiking. Its implied, but not stated.
Im sure no one has ever stayed the first night in one area, then backtracked and caught a ride to HI to start over. As long as yosemite valley is connected by trail to where you started, no one can say you didnt hike there.
anonwums
10-17-2013, 22:05
You need to take a look at the number of permits available for each trailhead and plan accordingly. You also can take a look at which ones fill up. Between that, you can be clever about submitting permits
http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/trailheads.htm
http://www.nps.gov/featurecontent/yose/upload/rptFullTrailheadDates.htm
And remember, almost half of permits are walk-up. When I hiked, I had a Happy Isles to Illilouette permit and got a walk up to stay at LYV the morning of. I heard horror stories of lines at the Yosemite Valley Ranger station, but when I arrived around 10:30 am, there was a line of maybe 2-3 people.
I've lost track of how many hiking permits I've gotten when hiking in the Sierras but I've ALWAYS gotten one on a walk up basis for starting a hike that day or the next. And, I've done it while traveling from afar on nearly every occasion. I've never had a reserved permit for 3 JMT thrus as well as all the other hikes I've done in the Sierras.
Berserker
10-18-2013, 12:24
I hiked the JMT this year and did the Happy Isles to Illiloutte option as that was the only one I could get (I only had a few days to work with on the start). I had issues getting the faxes to go through, and was able to actually call in and get this permit for 2 people over the phone. For details on the hike out to Illiloutte just go check out the 7/25 entry in my trail journal here: www.trailjournals.com/Berserker/. It's really not a big deal to do it as a detour, and it's a good option if doing the entire JMT is important to you (it was to me as I wanted to thru hike it...if I go back I'll likely skip the piece between Happy Isles and Tuolumne Meadows as most of that was a circus with the amount of people in there). Plus it was about the only night I remember getting some actual solitude as no one else was in that area.
"After the first night, you may camp wherever you can hike to within the wilderness."
However, there is nothing in the rules that specifically says you can only get there by hiking. Its implied, but not stated.
Im sure no one has ever stayed the first night in one area, then backtracked and caught a ride to HI to start over. As long as yosemite valley is connected by trail to where you started, no one can say you didnt hike there.
Think CAREFULLY about what MW is saying here! Think of the possibilities! They give an aspiring JMTer more options in getting their JMT permit! IF one is creative enough to think outside the box by breaking from the standard way of doing things(ie; breaking the so called rules) that so many fall into as ruts in a road WITHOUT BREAKING THE LAW you'll find additional options in obtaining a JMT thru-hiking permit. *You'll also find that you'll have additional opportunities in life in general if you heed this advice!
Fwiw ... The wilderness permit map on the Yosemite site seems to explicitly prohibit some, but not all, of the "creative" strategies. Look at the bottom left corner box:
http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/upload/Wilderness-Trailheads_07-14-2013_28x38-1.pdf
Much of this is not enforceable but at least for me the stress of going in with a borderline sketchy plan would at least somewhat ruin the state of mind I want to be in when hiking.
Don't take what I said out of context as I will not take your post out of context. None of what I said above is illegal or sketchy. It may be labeled as somewhat UNCONVENTIONAL though. That's how things often get done - by thinking creatively for new and yes even unproven solutions.
Dogwood, I was referring more to what MuddyWaters wrote than to your post. It seems to me that backtracking is specifically not allowed based on the regulation documented on the map. In any case, no offense intended.
No problema. What you posted is certainly valid in the right context coming from a good place and helpful anyhow.
What I found really interesting is that I got different interpretations of the regulations from different rangers while I was going through the reservation process. In my case, I had the GP>>LYV permit. One ranger told me I had to camp at LYV the first night. Another ranger told me that I could pass through if I wanted to.
In my opinion, the Yosemite wilderness permit system needs to be reviewed. For example, from an impact perspective, I can definitely see why the park wants to limit the number of people camping at Little Yosemite Valley on their first night out. However, it makes less sense to me why there would be a restriction on which trailhead to use in order to get to Little Yosemite Valley ... in other words, why would it make sense to have separate quotas for GP>>LYV and HI>>LYV? Hikers end up at LYV under either permit. The way the permit system is set up, it makes me think that the goal is also to control the number of hikers moving on each trail during the day ... but really, given the number of people hiking out of Happy Isles, would it matter if the people with a GP permit also hike from HI? I can't see that materially having an impact on the trail corridor since literally hundreds of people are out there on a typical summer day.
Overall, however, the permit once in hand allows for much more freedom than places that require specifying a campsite for each night of the trip (Grand Canyon, Smoky Mountains, etc). And the backcountry rangers are pretty laid back about checking permits (mine was only checked at LYV the first night and the second to last night below Forester Pass).
I would be inclined to go northbound on my next JMT hike, but starting from somewhere other than Whitney Portal. I think that going northbound would offer a different perspective and the permit situation is definitely much less of a hassle with Inyo compared to Yosemite.
However, it makes less sense to me why there would be a restriction on which trailhead to use in order to get to Little Yosemite Valley ... in other words, why would it make sense to have separate quotas for GP>>LYV and HI>>LYV? Hikers end up at LYV under either permit. The way the permit system is set up, it makes me think that the goal is also to control the number of hikers moving on each trail during the day ... but really, given the number of people hiking out of Happy Isles, would it matter if the people with a GP permit also hike from HI? I can't see that materially having an impact on the trail corridor since literally hundreds of people are out there on a typical summer day.
You kinda answered some of your questions yourself. "The way the permit system is set up, it makes me think that the goal is also to control the number of hikers moving on each trail during the day ... " AND in each area. Rangers aren't just concerned about JMT users but the impact ALL the visitors have cummulatively as they use various trails and areas.
"...but really, given the number of people hiking out of Happy Isles, would it matter if the people with a GP permit also hike from HI?" I think they believe it does matter as the Happy Isles Trailhead in Yosemite Valley is probably the most used trailhead in YV. It's BY FAR the most used trailhead for summitting Half Dome, the iconic "THING TO DO" for the majority of visitors to Yosemite NP, as well as those who want to fully experience VERY POPULAR and HIGHLY VISITED Vernal and Nevada Falls. They have to distribute the usage around the park(trails, areas, etc) as best they can.
MuddyWaters
10-18-2013, 18:59
Dogwood, I was referring more to what MuddyWaters wrote than to your post. It seems to me that backtracking is specifically not allowed based on the regulation documented on the map. In any case, no offense intended.
Im not recommending it by any means. I just know it has happened before. Plenty of people break the rules.
Plenty of people also carry a bear can and have lots of stuff thats NOT in it too the first few days. The ranger doesnt check for that, only asks if you have one.
If you have to spend one night somewhere you dont want, might as well spend it waiting for the right walk-up permit.
If you are a strong hiker then the options are limitless. Start at Hi and day hike up near TM and have a permit going out TM for the rest of the JMT. I actually did the option that Dogwood described. We started at TM and hiked to Whitney. We then hitched and took a bus back to TM and took our carto the valley. We took the bus to TM and day hiked back to the valley. You would need to do about 24 miles starting at 11am but it is easy heading down. Agree with many here, get creative. Also, if you are going solo it is much easier to get a same day permit. I used to do that all the time when I was hiking Yosemite about once a month.
MuddyWaters
10-18-2013, 21:41
Some have recommended hiking N from TM to HI downhill, and catch shuttle back to TM and head south as well.
I think most would like to climb half dome though, which is kind of hard without the right permit unless you waste some days.
saltysack
12-05-2013, 00:33
I hiked the JMT solo this year and had many of the same planning questions. Hopefully the following information will be of some help:
First, if you haven't already, it is important to visit the Yosemite wilderness permit page and review all of the information: http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/wildpermits.htm. In particular, look at the trailhead quota page at http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/trailheads.htm. Since your group size is 5 or 6 people, that definitely creates some issues with getting all of the group in on certain trailheads. Specifically, both the HI>>Sunrise/Merced Passthrough and GP>>LYV quotas for reservations is just six per day meaning that you would probably need to be the first permit application processed for that day to get approved.
Some specific answers:
1. Happy Isles to Sunrise/Merced passthrough permit means that you must hike past Little Yosemite Valley and camp beyond the JMT/Half Dome junction for the first night of the trip. Happy Isles to Little Yosemite Valley permit means that you MUST camp at Little Yosemite Valley for your first night. Happy Isles to Illilouette permit requires that you detour off the JMT and camp in the Illilouette Creek area. The trailhead map PDF shows how far you have to go on the first night on each of the permits: http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/upload/Wilderness-Trailheads_07-14-2013_28x38-1.pdf
2. The Glacier Point to Little Yosemite Valley permit is fine for a JMT start except you will miss the first four miles of the JMT from Happy Isles and you will need to get up to Glacier Point to start the trip ($25 bus ride). This was the permit I got when I made the reservation although I was able to change it to HI>>LYV when I got to the park.
3. Glacier Point to Illilouette permit requires camping in the Illiouette Creek area the first night. Same other downsides as #2.
4. You can each submit separate applications and I think this WILL increase the chances that one or more of the individual permits will be granted BUT are you willing to break up the group to do this and then meet up later sometime in the backcountry after the first night? If so, that might be an approach worth considering.
5. Ending trailhead should be Whitney Portal assuming you are hiking the entire trail.
BTW, the first day to submit an application is exactly 24 weeks (168 days) prior to the hike, not six months ahead: http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/wildpermitdates.htm. The process is pretty archaic and involves faxing the application before the office opens on that exact day.
One final thought.... although the permit reservation system has a lot of drama associated with it, I had no trouble strolling into the permit office in Yosemite Valley on a Sunday in August and changing my permit from GP>>LYV to HI>>LYV. They didn't have my preferred option of HI>>Pass through but staying at Little Yosemite Valley was actually OK since I used the afternoon to hike Half Dome. Be sure to include a half dome permit request on the form if you intend to take that side trip. Of course, I hiked solo ... and 5-6 people seeking a permit would likely have a more difficult time than I had.
The JMT was the best trip I've ever taken by a long shot ... all the permit hassles are worth it!
How long did it take? How was shuttle/flight options from east coast. I'm beginning planning a thru in Aug 2014. Thanks for input. Im probably hiking solo. I section hike the AT from Va south so elevation is a concern. I'm in good shape don't have problem hiking 18-20 mile days in the south but not sure about at high elevation. I can only get about 2 weeks off work. Thoughts?
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MuddyWaters
12-05-2013, 00:42
Two weeks is certainly possible for the right person.
My son and I are planning for next July if the snow is low (looking promising right now, some are calling for a dry winter). I am planning 18 hiking days, and 2 zeros, plus about 4 days travel time. I figure....23-24 days all together is realistic for an enjoyable experience. Could surely do it much faster, but no reason too, and it risks getting injured and having to bail out.
Ssshhhh....I havent told my employer yet.
wornoutboots
12-05-2013, 00:44
I hiked the JMT starting at Glacier Point & when I do it again, I'll start their. The panorama trail has Incredible views like it's name says. I wanted to complete the whole trail. so I camped in the Valley the night before at the backpackers campground & hiked from Happy Isle to the top of Nevada Falls where the panorama trail meets the JMT & looped back down to the valley. Enjoy, It s Phenomenal Hike!!
How long did it take? How was shuttle/flight options from east coast. I'm beginning planning a thru in Aug 2014. Thanks for input. Im probably hiking solo. I section hike the AT from Va south so elevation is a concern. I'm in good shape don't have problem hiking 18-20 mile days in the south but not sure about at high elevation. I can only get about 2 weeks off work. Thoughts?
I started on August 26 from Happy Isles and ended on September 15 exiting Whitney Portal. However, I took two zero days and one near zero and after the trip I felt like my daily mileage could have easily been increased quite a bit. I'd say two weeks of time on the trail is certainly possible but two weeks total including travel might be hard to pull off. You'll need a day after arriving in CA to get to Yosemite and probably two days to get back home from the trail. Eleven days on trail is getting to the 20 mpd range which I think would be tough for most hikers in the Sierra.
saltysack
12-05-2013, 10:25
Two weeks is certainly possible for the right person.
My son and I are planning for next July if the snow is low (looking promising right now, some are calling for a dry winter). I am planning 18 hiking days, and 2 zeros, plus about 4 days travel time. I figure....23-24 days all together is realistic for an enjoyable experience. Could surely do it much faster, but no reason too, and it risks getting injured and having to bail out.
Ssshhhh....I havent told my employer yet.
Haha me either !!!
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