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View Full Version : Are you OK with memorials being placed in the Three Ridges Wilderness?



scudder
11-03-2013, 20:52
There's a group of people- "Hiking for Virginia Fallen Heroes" ,that has a page on Facebook which states that their intent is to do 203" tribute hikes" to honor 203 servicemen from Virginia who made the ultimate sacrifice in Iraq and Afghanistan. Part of the tribute hike is to leave behind flags with ribbons tied to the staff with information about the fallen hero. There are several flags in the Three Ridges Wilderness. I'm having trouble getting comfortable with this effort in this place on Leave no trace grounds. This land was set aside by the government to remain wild forever. To me it seems like the right action but in the wrong place, inserting an agenda inconsistent with the intended purpose of the place. How do you feel about it? I understand this topic could be "loaded" and ask posters to be civil and thoughtful. I'm not trolling.

hikerboy57
11-03-2013, 20:56
There's a group of people- "Hiking for Virginia Fallen Heroes" ,that has a page on Facebook which states that their intent is to do 203" tribute hikes" to honor 203 servicemen from Virginia who made the ultimate sacrifice in Iraq and Afghanistan. Part of the tribute hike is to leave behind flags with ribbons tied to the staff with information about the fallen hero. There are several flags in the Three Ridges Wilderness. I'm having trouble getting comfortable with this effort in this place on Leave no trace grounds. This land was set aside by the government to remain wild forever. To me it seems like the right action but in the wrong place, inserting an agenda inconsistent with the intended purpose of the place. How do you feel about it? I understand this topic could be "loaded" and ask posters to be civil and thoughtful. I'm not trolling.
i agree with it being the right action in the wrong place. and i dont see the significance of these fallen heroes being honored in the woods.

QHShowoman
11-03-2013, 21:06
I agree. Nice idea, poorly thought out execution.

bfayer
11-03-2013, 21:10
If they are not permanent, I'm fine with it.

What is the difference between me seeing a flag and ribbon or seeing another hiker, or even the trail I am walking on, all three are not part of the wilderness. You said we are talking about a hand full of flags, I pick up more power bar wrappers than that on any hike I have done in VA.


I say just respect their intent and don't sweat the small stuff, and if you are really worried about it maybe a respectful message to them on facebook to see if they have a plan to recover the flags after a reasonable period of time.

Wise Old Owl
11-03-2013, 21:11
Awkward at best... but people will do what they want. - I hike around my local park and remove 3-5 pounds of trashed caution tape hanging from the trees each year.

Tuckahoe
11-03-2013, 21:28
If they are not permanent, I'm fine with it.

What is the difference between me seeing a flag and ribbon or seeing another hiker, or even the trail I am walking on, all three are not part of the wilderness. You said we are talking about a hand full of flags, I pick up more power bar wrappers than that on any hike I have done in VA.


I say just respect their intent and don't sweat the small stuff, and if you are really worried about it maybe a respectful message to them on facebook to see if they have a plan to recover the flags after a reasonable period of time.

+1 its just not something I can get upset about.

johnnybgood
11-03-2013, 21:28
I agree with the thought having had a nephew killed by a IED in the Iraq war in 2007. I applaud this groups effort but agree that the placement of memorial flags on national forest land is not consistent with proper trail etiquette.

Having bridges in the fallen soldiers hometown renamed in their memory is one way the state recognizes it's hero's , and I'm completely fine with that.
I know this groups intentions are good, so I hope they rethink the placement of those memorials.

Lone Wolf
11-03-2013, 21:32
i'm ok with them. shelters are more an eyesore than anything. i'm a Marine so i'm biased

Train Wreck
11-03-2013, 21:41
We saw one of these types of memorials on a summit in the Whites this past August. It didn't bother me to find it there. I just looked at the photo and thought about how young he was to give his life for his country. Our country still raises up heroes despite everything else we think is wrong with it.

Cookerhiker
11-03-2013, 22:08
I don't think it's appropriate in a Wilderness Area.

aficion
11-03-2013, 22:08
I'm more than ok with it. Our fallen deserve our recognition and respect. No harm will come to the great outdoors, which also deserves our respect and appreciation, by honoring their memory in this way. A true wilderness, without trails, would not serve the purpose, as not enough souls would encounter the temporary markers. My hat is off to those who bring such an effort. Good question....thoughtful answers.

Gray Blazer
11-03-2013, 22:12
We saw one of these types of memorials on a summit in the Whites this past August. It didn't bother me to find it there. I just looked at the photo and thought about how young he was to give his life for his country. Our country still raises up heroes despite everything else we think is wrong with it.

Second time tonight I find myself echoing your sentiments.

Train Wreck
11-03-2013, 22:12
I don't think it's appropriate in a Wilderness Area.

Well, they've painted an American flag on the rocks at Lehigh Gap in PA, and another flag on a mountain near Bear Mt., NY, which I personally find a lot more upsetting than some small temporary remembrance.

Cookerhiker
11-03-2013, 22:14
Well, they've painted an American flag on the rocks at Lehigh Gap in PA, and another flag on a mountain near Bear Mt., NY, which I personally find a lot more upsetting than some small temporary remembrance.

Those locations are not Wilderness Areas. The OP specifically asked about Wilderness Areas which, under the Wilderness Act of 1964, are supposed to be kept pristine. There are plenty of other places to honor the fallen.

Rasty
11-03-2013, 22:14
Doesn't bother me at all. Compared to shelters, overly blazed trails and sunflower seed shells a simple flag isn't an eye-sore.

Train Wreck
11-03-2013, 22:19
I guess people need to stop leaving little remembrances on Little Ottie's grave, too, then, if it's inside a wilderness area, which I think it is. I could be mistaken.

HikerMom58
11-03-2013, 22:24
Those locations are not Wilderness Areas. The OP specifically asked about Wilderness Areas which, under the Wilderness Act of 1964, are supposed to be kept pristine. There are plenty of other places to honor the fallen.

Where are the 3 Ridges in VA... isn't that near Buena Vista?

atmilkman
11-03-2013, 22:28
Where are the 3 Ridges in VA... isn't that near Buena Vista?

I think Buena Vista is a condo community in Florida.

aficion
11-03-2013, 22:28
I guess people need to stop leaving little remembrances on Little Ottie's grave, too, then, if it's inside a wilderness area, which I think it is. I could be mistaken.

It lies just north of The James River Face wilderness in the National Forest. Ottie likes his presents and his presence is very real.

aficion
11-03-2013, 22:34
Where are the 3 Ridges in VA... isn't that near Buena Vista?

East Northeast of Montebello. Includes Mau Har Trail which is a beautiful blue blazer.

Another Kevin
11-03-2013, 22:35
I wouldn't be perturbed if I understood why this was any better than flags at a cemetery, or on a street corner, or whatever. But this proposal just doesn't feel right.

I do come across memorials from time to time while hiking. I've paid respects at the monuments of Frank Layman, a literally fallen firefighter; of William Curtis and Allan Ormsbee ,who blazed the southwest approach to Slide Mountain in the Catskills, subsequently perished in a blizzard in the Whites in June of 1900, and whose ashes were strewn near the head of the trail that bears their name; of John Burroughs, who is second only to Muir in writing that reintroduced the world of Manifest Destiny to the harmonies of nature; and of Raymond Torrey, who, while he was not the visionary that Benton MacKaye or Myron Avery were, nevertheless blazed the first miles of Appalachian trail through Bear Mountain and Harriman, and whose ashes were given to the wind at his favorite overlook in Harriman, a short distance from the New York Long Path. I hope someday to visit others: Ernie Pyle, Noah John Rondeau, Daniel Shays, the list of people memorialized in the wilderness is long.

I've visited plane wrecks and abandoned family cemeteries in the woods, and prayed for the repose of those who lie there, some of their names now forgotten. And I know that some of the names graven in the rock at some of the Catskill overlooks - they have an abundance of very old graffiti - belong to people whose remains were given to the winds off the same rocks. Where I hike, therefore, memorials abound, simply because the places had a rich history before the woods were allowed to reclaim them.

Someday, I shall climb the trailless mountain where my step-grandfather disappeared, 73 years ago, and pay my respects to him in a place that, while it is "forever wild" under the law, is still forever his in a deeper and more abiding sense. If I do so, I shall most likely build a small cairn of stones, some short distance out of sight of the summit, and bury his name (possibly engraved on a bit of rock or aluminium, so as to withstand the elements for a time) within it. Someday, too, I shall visit the plane crash in the Vermont backcountry where fell the man who was my first real friend when I went to college far from anyone I knew; the hiker who first led me above the timberline afoot; the youth whose short earthly life ended on a foggy night mere months after we met, now forty years ago.

While none of these memorials has Left No Trace, they do not bother me in the slightest. They are placed on land that forever belongs to the departed. Those remembered left their trace indelibly in their having held the land and worked it before Nature reclaimed it, in their pioneering new routes and blazing trail, in their stewardship of the land, and in their very bones and ashes. In life they enriched the land, rather than defacing it. In death their markers silently cry out: Hiker, as you pass, remember me and do likewise!

For someone who does not have the same deep connection to a particular spot of wilderness, leaving a memorial in an arbitrary spot just doesn't feel quite right. The memory of our fallen warriors is sacred, and deserves to be upheld. Nevertheless, the laudable impulse to remember them seems misdirected if it leaves traces that are not theirs in land that we all are supposed to respect and leave undefiled. To me, it feels as if it would end by honouring neither their memory nor the land.

scudder
11-03-2013, 22:40
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. For those of you who are okay with this, would you feel the same way if Mother's Against Drunk Driving initiated a tribute hike where they left markers in wilderness areas to commemorate their loved ones? Where do you draw the line?

johnnybgood
11-03-2013, 22:43
Well, they've painted an American flag on the rocks at Lehigh Gap in PA, and another flag on a mountain near Bear Mt., NY, which I personally find a lot more upsetting than some small temporary remembrance.

Agree , and for what it's worth , here's another example ;
The trail was routed to pass by the Ottie Powell memorial which is decorated with new trinkets every year by hikers that pass by .

aficion
11-03-2013, 22:53
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. For those of you who are okay with this, would you feel the same way if Mother's Against Drunk Driving initiated a tribute hike where they left markers in wilderness areas to commemorate their loved ones? Where do you draw the line?

Replying to JK as well here. These Americans died overseas. Memorializing them here is not therefore somehow wrong. MADD can put up memorials at the scenes of the crimes.

Train Wreck
11-03-2013, 23:11
Replying to JK as well here. These Americans died overseas. Memorializing them here is not therefore somehow wrong. MADD can put up memorials at the scenes of the crimes.

Exactly, I just can't get all worked up about recognizing these men in this personal way for their service. They belong to the nation in a way the MADD victims do not.

HikerMom58
11-03-2013, 23:30
Leave No Trace is a joke. I practice it myself and would LOVE it if others did the same but others didn't in the past and still don't.

I hiked to Hay Rock, for the first time a few years ago, on my way to Tinker Cliffs. Hay Rock is ugly from painted graffiti all over it.:mad: THAT ruined "The Wilderness" for me. I'm over it. It is what it is - I don't care anymore because if I let it bother me, it would steal my joy.
A few flags is nothing compared to irreversible damage done at Hay Rock & lots of other places.

I like memorial flags AND shelters!

hikerboy57
11-03-2013, 23:39
Leave No Trace is a joke. I practice it myself and would LOVE it if others did the same but others didn't in the past and still don't.

I hiked to Hay Rock, for the first time a few years ago, on my way to Tinker Cliffs. Hay Rock is ugly from painted graffiti all over it.:mad: THAT ruined "The Wilderness" for me. I'm over it. It is what it is - I don't care anymore because if I let it bother me, it would steal my joy.
A few flags is nothing compared to irreversible damage done at Hay Rock & lots of other places.

I like memorial flags AND shelters!
what others do and have done is never relevant and shouldnt affect your own behaviour.leave no trace is no joke,nor is it a bible.its just a guideline.and if more people followed its principles, the woods would be a lot more "pristine"that shelters exist or privies or trails themselves exist doesnt mean that anything we want should exist there too.
what doesnt appear relevant is why these memorials belong in the woods at all.why not a memorial far more public?

aficion
11-03-2013, 23:46
what others do and have done is never relevant and shouldnt affect your own behaviour.leave no trace is no joke,nor is it a bible.its just a guideline.and if more people followed its principles, the woods would be a lot more "pristine"that shelters exist or privies or trails themselves exist doesnt mean that anything we want should exist there too.
what doesnt appear relevant is why these memorials belong in the woods at all.why not a memorial far more public?

More public memorials are indeed also appropriate.

Starchild
11-04-2013, 08:17
If there was some connection between these lands and the actual person that would make sense.

As it is it actually has a backfire aspect, invoking negative feelings, perhaps not at the person, but the cause, not so much for littering, but for advertizing. The wilderness is the place you want to get away from that (AMC should take note), and such a place it is needed in modern life. Such a place is also needed for those who morn the loss of a loved one, a break from it and not to be continuously exposed to it.

IMHO their approach is wrong in total and only serves to continue the pain of loss instead of celebrating the living and living life.

Lone Wolf
11-04-2013, 08:23
The wilderness is the place you want to get away from that (AMC should take note), and such a place it is needed in modern life. .

the ATC should take note also then and stop allowing more and more shelters and privies to be built

peakbagger
11-04-2013, 08:39
There was a recent thread on viewsfromthetop.org that discussed a similar effort. The title of the thread started by me was "when does a memorial become trash in the backcountry"
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?50218-When-does-a-memorial-become-trash-in-a-backcountry-setting

The thread morphed and drifted from honoring fallen soldiers to dealing with the aftermath of the Boston Marathon bombing. As the whites are readily accessible to Boston and fairly unskilled hikers it is magnet for well meaning folks to try to adopt various summits for memorials. Unfortunately most folks only plan for the present and what at one time may have a well meaning memorial rapidly degrades in an alpine environment and to those encountering it in its degraded state, it generally no longer looks respectful. Luckily most of the memorials can be removed and are as the individuals leaving them don't realize that "trash begets trash" and despite the best of intentions memorials become trash eventually. Most summits are visited far more often than folks realize and once one memorial pops up, others rapidly appear and the practice gets legitimized degrading the reason why folks want to visit these spots to get away from society. All of this is amplified if the summits in question are in a Wilderness area. If the well meaning folks truly want to memorialize a person, the USGS has a policy in place on how to rename a summit but it is intentionally a long process that fails frequently as general most summits have been renamed numerous times since the colonists co-opted the native American names that had been in place for an unknown period.

HikerMom58
11-04-2013, 08:57
what others do and have done is never relevant and shouldnt affect your own behaviour.leave no trace is no joke,nor is it a bible.its just a guideline.and if more people followed its principles, the woods would be a lot more "pristine"that shelters exist or privies or trails themselves exist doesnt mean that anything we want should exist there too.
what doesnt appear relevant is why these memorials belong in the woods at all.why not a memorial far more public?

HB... when I said LNT is a joke, I meant it's not happening. Not everyone got the memo or even cares. It's a reality check. I stated that I am a fan of & embrace the practice of LNT, myself. No prob. If LNT was/had been working, I would feel differently about this thread. It doesn't bother me at all. They can put up flags or whatever to remember the fallen... it's OK with me. I like that much better than seeing a discarded banana peel or orange peels.. at least the flags has meaning for someone else.

When I was at Charlie's Bunion, in the Smokey's, I saw rose pedals along the path leading up to the view. I was like... aww.. someone must have proposed or celebrated a special occasion here. Sweet. I'm over the LNT, in that regard.

That's how I feel. ;)

10-K
11-04-2013, 09:13
It's not that I have so much problem with memorials. It's the precedent it sets that worries me.

At what point do you draw the line? Here in Erwin we have something called the "Linear Trail" and the city allows memorials. You can't walk 10 yards without seeing a memorial to someone who probably never even heard of the Linear Trail.

hikerboy57
11-04-2013, 09:20
HB... when I said LNT is a joke, I meant it's not happening. Not everyone got the memo or even cares. It's a reality check. I stated that I am a fan of & embrace the practice of LNT, myself. No prob. If LNT was/had been working, I would feel differently about this thread. It doesn't bother me at all. They can put up flags or whatever to remember the fallen... it's OK with me. I like that much better than seeing a discarded banana peel or orange peels.. at least the flags has meaning for someone else.

When I was at Charlie's Bunion, in the Smokey's, I saw rose pedals along the path leading up to the view. I was like... aww.. someone must have proposed or celebrated a special occasion here. Sweet. I'm over the LNT, in that regard.

That's how I feel. ;)
im no lnt nazi.i have no problem with the memrials in the "wilderness". i agree with lw there would be far less trace if the atc tore down the shelters and privies and adopted a policy of dispersed camping instead.but if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. i just question the significance of having them in the woods.10-k also brings up a good point about precedents, but should i come across one of these memorials, it wouldnt bother me, and i would respect it.

aficion
11-04-2013, 09:43
[QUOTE=Starchild;1813559]If there was some connection between these lands and the actual person that would make sense.

The connection is; these are American public lands and we are discussing allowing them to be used to memorialize those who gave their lives in American Services. Our country, and the liberty we enjoy, are a direct result of the efforts of folks willing to give their all to establish and protect it. If you find it difficult to get the connection, reality must be challenging for you. Enjoy the stars. The woods do not exist for the exclusive use of entitled backpackers.:(

Rain Man
11-04-2013, 09:55
As it is it actually has a backfire aspect, invoking negative feelings, ....

I ran across one of these in the past year. It was old, neglected, tattered, and obviously forgotten by whomever placed it there. Not at all reflecting care for the soldier named on the card, in my opinion, nor of the American flag.

Another thing that doesn't reflect care for the flag nor for the soldier who sacrificed for the USA being a nation of laws, is the fact that whomever posted it must have felt "above the law" to do such a thing, indicating disrespect.

My family has lost members in more than one American war. My wife's brother died in Vietnam. I felt a great sense of sadness, loss, and appreciation for that listed soldier's sacrifice when I read the card. Not so much for the act of littering with a haphazard, neglected and therefore disrespected American flag.

There's a right way to honor the fallen. The Audie Murphy memorial monument comes to mind.

Rain Man

.

Bronk
11-04-2013, 09:58
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. For those of you who are okay with this, would you feel the same way if Mother's Against Drunk Driving initiated a tribute hike where they left markers in wilderness areas to commemorate their loved ones? Where do you draw the line?

Good idea, maybe they could leave piles of liquor bottles as a memorial, or possibly leave a wrecked car at each trailhead. Seriously though, if you don't like the flag, just remove it. Its not like anybody will be standing guard over it. This is no different than people who leave bibles in the shelters or people who paint white marks on the trees.

aficion
11-04-2013, 10:06
I ran across one of these in the past year. It was old, neglected, tattered, and obviously forgotten by whomever placed it there. Not at all reflecting care for the soldier named on the card, in my opinion, nor of the American flag.

Another thing that doesn't reflect care for the flag nor for the soldier who sacrificed for the USA being a nation of laws, is the fact that whomever posted it must have felt "above the law" to do such a thing, indicating disrespect.

My family has lost members in more than one American war. My wife's brother died in Vietnam. I felt a great sense of sadness, loss, and appreciation for that listed soldier's sacrifice when I read the card. Not so much for the act of littering with a haphazard, neglected and therefore disrespected American flag.

There's a right way to honor the fallen. The Audie Murphy memorial monument comes to mind.

Rain Man

.

The Audie Murphy memorial will someday be a pile of rubble. Ozymandias comes to mind. That doesn't make it litter or impute any disrespect to those who established it. These memorials are clearly intended to be temporary, fitting symbolism for the lives of those given.

Namtrag
11-04-2013, 10:14
Just don't get why this is even being talked about. I saw two of these memorials and it really made me think about life and how fleeting it is as I saw the beautiful view.

bfayer
11-04-2013, 11:16
I understand people that believe this type of thing is inappropriate. As for me, like I said I am fine with them.

The reality is that no matter where you place a memorial someone will be offended. It is impossible in this country to memorialize anything without someone getting angry about it.

Even the memorials on the Mall in DC get people upset.

A beautiful spot in the mountains where we stop and enjoy the view and feel blessed to live in a country that has decided to preserve the place for future generations, is exactly where we need a small flag with the name of a fallen hero.

The connection is obvious to me. We enjoy the blessings of this nation because of the people those small flags represent, and without their sacrifice we would not have the view to enjoy.

I would much rather see a temporary flag than the long term damage of a fire ring or a name carved into a tree.


Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

Train Wreck
11-04-2013, 11:54
[QUOTE=Starchild;1813559]If there was some connection between these lands and the actual person that would make sense.

The connection is; these are American public lands and we are discussing allowing them to be used to memorialize those who gave their lives in American Services. Our country, and the liberty we enjoy, are a direct result of the efforts of folks willing to give their all to establish and protect it. If you find it difficult to get the connection, reality must be challenging for you. Enjoy the stars. The woods do not exist for the exclusive use of entitled backpackers.:(


A beautiful spot in the mountains where we stop and enjoy the view and feel blessed to live in a country that has decided to preserve the place for future generations, is exactly where we need a small flag with the name of a fallen hero.

The connection is obvious to me. We enjoy the blessings of this nation because of the people those small flags represent, and without their sacrifice we would not have the view to enjoy.

I would much rather see a temporary flag than the long term damage of a fire ring or a name carved into a tree.

Pretty much sums it up for me.

rocketsocks
11-04-2013, 12:03
hey I'm all about spreadin ashes and walking off the war, but unless the person being memorialized had a love of the trail/woods/hiking I really don't see the connection. If you do set out these effigies, pick em up before they turn into macab weather worn unidentifiable trash deposits. Other than that, go for it.

Sevsa
11-04-2013, 14:51
I just don't get it. As already stated unless there is some intimate connection to that place why put it in a wilderness area. There are many more appropriate places that allow the family and the public to remember the person and reflect upon their sacrifice than the middle of the forest. The argument that because it has been done before or that because there is trash, graffitti, shelters, etc there allows anything to be put there just doesn't make sense. The effort should be in preserving these areas rather than adding more things that don't belong there.

mfleming
11-04-2013, 14:54
the ATC should take note also then and stop allowing more and more shelters and privies to be built

Good Point. The White Mountain National Forest in New Hampshire many years ago removed some shelters in Federally designated Wilderness Areas. The ones I know about weren't on the AT. Not sure about the AT in Wilderness Areas

max patch
11-04-2013, 15:14
I haven't seen one in a few years now, but in Georgia for a while every year or so I'd come across a memorial (and sometimes a burial site also) to a dog that had hiked on the GA AT with the owner. They generally would last only part of a season, when (presumably) the trail maintainers would pack them out. Usually they were placed on a blue blaze; I'm guessing hoping they would last longer.

Train Wreck
11-04-2013, 15:19
I haven't seen one in a few years now, but in Georgia for a while every year or so I'd come across a memorial (and sometimes a burial site also) to a dog that had hiked on the GA AT with the owner. They generally would last only part of a season, when (presumably) the trail maintainers would pack them out. Usually they were placed on a blue blaze; I'm guessing hoping they would last longer.

A few years ago I climbed the Albert Mt. firetower and saw a poem taped to the underside of the platform. A hiker had left it in memorial to his dog. It was actually quite touching and I wish I had copied it down.

Pedaling Fool
11-04-2013, 15:56
I know some see a weathered memorial and think: "They just don't care...". However, when I see a weathered memorial out away from a city/town it causes me to think more; it makes me feel more reflective and introspective and to some extent nostalgic.

Although, pigeon-sh1t-covered statues never has that effect on me:D

Don H
11-04-2013, 16:03
Here's a thought. Instead of leaving ribbons along the trail to weather, fade and eventually be removed as trash I would like to suggest printing a memorial page for each of our lost soldiers with information, memorial poems, pictures, etc and pasting it inside a shelter log. More information could be placed on a full page than a single ribbon, it would become a permeant part of the trail record, and many more people would get to see it.

aficion
11-04-2013, 16:09
I just don't get it. As already stated unless there is some intimate connection to that place why put it in a wilderness area. There are many more appropriate places that allow the family and the public to remember the person and reflect upon their sacrifice than the middle of the forest. The argument that because it has been done before or that because there is trash, graffitti, shelters, etc there allows anything to be put there just doesn't make sense. The effort should be in preserving these areas rather than adding more things that don't belong there.

You obviously don't. These places would not exist, as public lands in a free society without the sacrifices of those who established, maintained, and protected American liberty. What better place to show our respect and gratitude? I submit that those being remembered, and those making the effort to honor them, have earned the right to go out there and do so. The beneficiaries of their largesse, who don't get it, are the only losers.

hikerboy57
11-04-2013, 16:17
Here's a thought. Instead of leaving ribbons along the trail to weather, fade and eventually be removed as trash I would like to suggest printing a memorial page for each of our lost soldiers with information, memorial poems, pictures, etc and pasting it inside a shelter log. More information could be placed on a full page than a single ribbon, it would become a permeant part of the trail record, and many more people would get to see it.
the shelter logs are replaced every year.

bfayer
11-04-2013, 16:28
aficoin,

Maybe if a sign read "This view brought to you by people that paid more than taxes"? Maybe that would get the idea across.

The point I was trying to make and I think aficoin is trying to make is that the flags and ribbons are not there for the service members or their families, they are being placed there so others don't forget the cost of freedom. What better place to do that than the places where we feel the most free?

The flags will be picked up and packed out eventually, so no long term damage to the wilderness.



Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

HikerMom58
11-04-2013, 16:36
I just don't get it. As already stated unless there is some intimate connection to that place why put it in a wilderness area. There are many more appropriate places that allow the family and the public to remember the person and reflect upon their sacrifice than the middle of the forest. The argument that because it has been done before or that because there is trash, graffitti, shelters, etc there allows anything to be put there just doesn't make sense. The effort should be in preserving these areas rather than adding more things that don't belong there.

Well, it makes sense to me. Normally seeing things in black and white is viewed as a cognitive distortion. But, in this particular case, I feel this thinking is acceptable. So yes, I see this as an all or nothing deal.

I don't have a problem with it because....

1) It's not permanent like the other "traces". 2) It has real meaning and purpose.

These hero's should not be limited to where or when they should be honored. I have no problem with this place being a great place to be remembered. Who am I to say, nay?

I just read Don H post... that is an excellent idea!

aficion
11-04-2013, 16:39
aficoin,

Maybe if a sign read "This view brought to you by people that paid more than taxes"? Maybe that would get the idea across.

The point I was trying to make and I think aficoin is trying to make is that the flags and ribbons are not there for the service members or their families, they are being placed there so others don't forget the cost of freedom. What better place to do that than the places where we feel the most free?

The flags will be picked up and packed out eventually, so no long term damage to the wilderness.



Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

You hit the nail on the head.

QHShowoman
11-04-2013, 18:05
[/B]

I don't have a problem with it because....

1) It's not permanent like the other "traces". !


Trash isn't permanent, either. Neither are fire rings.

Not necessarily disagreeing with your sentiment, but this logic doesn't really make sense in terms of LNT.

It just seems like kind of a weird idea to place these little flags with handwritten tags in the middle of the wilderness, where people may or may not stumble upon them. But maybe it gives the woman who is heading up the effort some sort of peace?

QHShowoman
11-04-2013, 18:15
You obviously don't. These places would not exist, as public lands in a free society without the sacrifices of those who established, maintained, and protected American liberty. What better place to show our respect and gratitude? I submit that those being remembered, and those making the effort to honor them, have earned the right to go out there and do so. The beneficiaries of their largesse, who don't get it, are the only losers.


I think you've probably put more thought into this than the woman who is organizing the whole project. It would make more sense to me to put each flag along a trail in or near the fallen soldier's hometown, but it's not like I was asked to vote on the matter.

aficion
11-04-2013, 18:16
Trash isn't permanent, either. Neither are fire rings.

Not necessarily disagreeing with your sentiment, but this logic doesn't really make sense in terms of LNT.

It just seems like kind of a weird idea to place these little flags with handwritten tags in the middle of the wilderness, where people may or may not stumble upon them. But maybe it gives the woman who is heading up the effort some sort of peace?

It gives me some sort of admiration for taking up the task of reminding our entitled generations where their liberty springs from.

QHShowoman
11-04-2013, 18:19
It gives me some sort of admiration for taking up the task of reminding our entitled generations where their liberty springs from.

Somehow, I doubt the entitled ones will even give them a passing glance or thought.

Tuckahoe
11-04-2013, 18:25
It gives me some sort of admiration for taking up the task of reminding our entitled generations where their liberty springs from.


Somehow, I doubt the entitled ones will even give them a passing glance or thought.

I think that those of the entitled class would be offended that they are being reminded that they owe anyone anything.

aficion
11-04-2013, 18:29
I think that those of the entitled class would be offended that they are being reminded that they owe anyone anything.

Spot on .

vamelungeon
11-04-2013, 19:44
i think that those of the entitled class would be offended that they are being reminded that they owe anyone anything.

b i n g o !!!

Rasty
11-04-2013, 19:50
It gives me some sort of admiration for taking up the task of reminding our entitled generations where their liberty springs from.

Which age group is that?

bfayer
11-04-2013, 20:02
You guys are missing the fact that you can't be reminded of something that you never knew.

That vast majority of people in this country live in blissful (no offense to Blissful) ignorance of the daily sacrifices that others make to ensure their security and prosperity.

aficion
11-04-2013, 20:05
Which age group is that?

Those now living.

hikerboy57
11-04-2013, 20:43
You guys are missing the fact that you can't be reminded of something that you never knew.

That vast majority of people in this country live in blissful (no offense to Blissful) ignorance of the daily sacrifices that others make to ensure their security and prosperity.you're right.
the vast majority will never see these memorials in the woods,though.

aficion
11-04-2013, 20:49
you're right.
the vast majority will never see these memorials in the woods,though.

The vast majority do not walk in the woods. So you are right,too. Stating the obvious.

QHShowoman
11-04-2013, 20:55
I was thinking about this thread on the drive home from work and even if we all agreed that these fallen soldiers were "deserving" of memorials in wilderness areas, does that kind of thinking eventually lead to a slippery slope?

For example, what if an organization wanted to place 1,000 similar memorials in honor of those who died from cancer? Or were victims of child abuse? Or had a loved one with Alzheimer's? Wouldn't it suck to come upon someplace like Max Patch and have it dotted with American flags and pink ribbons and stuffed teddy bears all in honor of "someone"?

Luckily, most people are probably too lazy to place memorials in the middle of the woods with any such regularity, but if you bend LNT ethics to accommodate one, do you have to accommodate them all?

Lone Wolf
11-04-2013, 20:57
so if your noobie ass walks in the woods pay no attention, or pay respect to a memorial that you may pass. don't bitch about a small out-of-place token placed on the trail as you hurry to a man-made shelter and privy in the so-called wilderness. GD whiners

aficion
11-04-2013, 20:57
"I was thinking about this thread on the drive home from work and even if we all agreed that these fallen soldiers were "deserving" of memorials in wilderness areas, does that kind of thinking eventually lead to a slippery slope?

For example, what if an organization wanted to place 1,000 similar memorials in honor of those who died from cancer? Or were victims of child abuse? Or had a loved one with Alzheimer's? Wouldn't it suck to come upon someplace like Max Patch and have it dotted with American flags and pink ribbons and stuffed teddy bears all in honor of "someone"?

Luckily, most people are probably too lazy to place memorials in the middle of the woods with any such regularity, but if you bend LNT ethics to accommodate one, do you have to accommodate them all?"Quote

No .

QHShowoman
11-04-2013, 21:05
No .


Then how do you (assuming you were the overseeing body of a wilderness area) decide which to allow? Is it fair to rank fallen soldiers above firefighters fallen in 9/11 above victims of a school shooting above those who died of illness?

I was just wondering if we had the authority to make the rules for such things, what would make it a challenge?

I kind of like unexpected memorials in the woods. But they make me curious, so I'd prefer if they were all neatly explained for passersby. There's one up near the AT in Caledonia SP in PA that I am still stumped by.

aficion
11-04-2013, 21:27
Then how do you (assuming you were the overseeing body of a wilderness area) decide which to allow? Is it fair to rank fallen soldiers above firefighters fallen in 9/11 above victims of a school shooting above those who died of illness?

I was just wondering if we had the authority to make the rules for such things, what would make it a challenge?

I kind of like unexpected memorials in the woods. But they make me curious, so I'd prefer if they were all neatly explained for passersby. There's one up near the AT in Caledonia SP in PA that I am still stumped by.

Clarity is worth seeking. I'm done here.

QHShowoman
11-04-2013, 21:30
Clarity is worth seeking.

Sounds like an Indigo Girls song to me.

Tuckahoe
11-04-2013, 21:36
I was thinking about this thread on the drive home from work and even if we all agreed that these fallen soldiers were "deserving" of memorials in wilderness areas, does that kind of thinking eventually lead to a slippery slope?

For example, what if an organization wanted to place 1,000 similar memorials in honor of those who died from cancer? Or were victims of child abuse? Or had a loved one with Alzheimer's? Wouldn't it suck to come upon someplace like Max Patch and have it dotted with American flags and pink ribbons and stuffed teddy bears all in honor of "someone"?

Luckily, most people are probably too lazy to place memorials in the middle of the woods with any such regularity, but if you bend LNT ethics to accommodate one, do you have to accommodate them all?

I am bothered by the inability to realize there is a difference between someone who has died because of a disease and those that died in service to We the People.

WE send these men and women into harm's way to a life of sheer terror, privation and filth, make their families orphans and widows; whine about closed national parks without a peep for the soldier who may not be paid because of politcal games... and we are now going to whine and debate about temporary memorials to those that have died for us?

Lone Wolf
11-04-2013, 21:39
it's the I95 of walkin' trails. anything goes. ain't no wilderness about the AT. thank the ATC for promoting "thru-hiking"

QHShowoman
11-04-2013, 21:54
I am bothered by the inability to realize there is a difference between someone who has died because of a disease and those that died in service to We the People.

WE send these men and women into harm's way to a life of sheer terror, privation and filth, make their families orphans and widows; whine about closed national parks without a peep for the soldier who may not be paid because of politcal games... and we are now going to whine and debate about temporary memorials to those that have died for us?

Don't waste your energy on being "bothered." There's no lack of ability to draw a distinction on my part -- it's a hypothetical question.

HikerMom58
11-04-2013, 21:58
"I was thinking about this thread on the drive home from work and even if we all agreed that these fallen soldiers were "deserving" of memorials in wilderness areas, does that kind of thinking eventually lead to a slippery slope?

For example, what if an organization wanted to place 1,000 similar memorials in honor of those who died from cancer? Or were victims of child abuse? Or had a loved one with Alzheimer's? Wouldn't it suck to come upon someplace like Max Patch and have it dotted with American flags and pink ribbons and stuffed teddy bears all in honor of "someone"?

Luckily, most people are probably too lazy to place memorials in the middle of the woods with any such regularity, but if you bend LNT ethics to accommodate one, do you have to accommodate them all?"Quote

No .

I agree ^
1) First of all, I doubt this will open up a can of worms at all. 2) The LNT ethic has not only been bent, it's been shattered beyond repair. There's no stopping this train & no crying over spilled milk.

No one has control... no one.

Don H
11-04-2013, 22:04
the shelter logs are replaced every year.

Yes they are, sometimes more often, depends on when they are filled or go missing. But the ones that are filled and replaced are kept by the trail clubs. How often do you think a ribbon with a name on it will remain legible out in the weather?

Colter
11-05-2013, 01:10
so if your noobie ass walks in the woods pay no attention, or pay respect to a memorial that you may pass. don't bitch about a small out-of-place token placed on the trail as you hurry to a man-made shelter and privy in the so-called wilderness. GD whiners

I love everybody. One of the great things about me is that I have a very positive attitude.
Imelda Marcos
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/topics/topic_positive6.html#rkA43VqJoYFUTLx0.99

JAK
11-05-2013, 02:43
I think they might have done something a little differently, like if there was a section of trail needing some work to prevent erosion, foot bridge or something in their memory.

JAK
11-05-2013, 02:52
For an annual event like a 'memorial hike' involving leaving something behind, I think it could be some natural biodegradable material, like flowers, wreaths of laurel, or wreaths of some local vegetation. This would be more traditional, and in keeping with nature. Just a suggestion.

Hill Ape
11-05-2013, 06:11
who cleans these up? i carry a trash bag, and collect up trash as i hike. is it ok for me to clean these up? how long is an acceptable wait time? when the flag is laying on the ground? bleached white from the elements? i agree with many other posters, this seems like poor execution. i checked out her facebook page, although her heart seems in the right place, the whole thing seems very self serving. i expect to see her on good morning america or the view.

i wont even bother with a LNT argument.

bfayer
11-05-2013, 06:42
I don't think anyone on here is arguing that this is the best way to accomplish her goals, but we didn't get a vote on her plans. All I am saying and I think others agree, is that although we might have gone about this in another way, what she is doing has purpose, and we don't have any significant objections to the way she is going about it. Nothing she is doing is causing irreversible damage to areas she is leaving the flags.

My view is "Ok, not the best idea, but if it gets even one person to think about the people in this country that have given everything to preserve our liberty and security, then I am not going to nit pick about the way she is doing it.". I'll just give her a simple "Thank You", and move on.

Rasputen
11-05-2013, 08:39
I walked along a wooded path
whereby I stumbled upon a tattered flag
The inscription read: PFC Fallen Hero
I saluted and remembered..

MuddyWaters
11-05-2013, 09:09
doesnt bother me really
but no, they dont belong there, no one will see them
what if everyone left something in the woods

it would seem on public lands that they might need to request some sort of permit for something like that, and it would probably be denied.

Rain Man
11-05-2013, 09:26
WE send these men and women into harm's way ....

Who is this "WE" you speak for?

Rain Man

.

bfayer
11-05-2013, 09:32
Who is this "WE" you speak for?

Rain Man

.

My take on his use of 'We" is "Our Nation".

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

aficion
11-05-2013, 09:52
The same we as in "We the people", I expect; we who vote anyway.

Tuckahoe
11-05-2013, 10:52
My take on his use of 'We" is "Our Nation".

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


The same we as in "We the people", I expect; we who vote anyway.

Some folks get it.

Gambit McCrae
11-05-2013, 11:15
Rainman always like to ask indirect troll type questions like that lol even though he gets it he likes to take it offensively.

I dont like the idea of people placing flags or ribbons for what they think is important... because of course everyone can agree that people have the right to the have "importanties" so now we let fallen soldiers have a ribbon, why on the AT I do not know. But next I think we should breast cancer awareness pink ribbons on the trail. Oh and gay rights people? they should prolly tie a little rainbow ribbon on a limb or two... Now Peta...oh boy they need lots of ribbons but what about the pow's? Now we are running out of limbs and shelters and staffs :)

bfayer
11-05-2013, 11:51
...But next I think we should breast cancer awareness pink ribbons on the trail. Oh and gay rights people? they should prolly tie a little rainbow ribbon on a limb or two... Now Peta...oh boy they need lots of ribbons but what about the pow's? Now we are running out of limbs and shelters and staffs :)

I have seen everyone of those things while hiking, especially the breast cancer awareness stuff.

Did I think it was a good idea? No, did it bother me? well I did get tired of seeing pink ribbons after awhile, but no it didn't bother me.

As for Rain Man, I have never met him, but from reading his posts he seems like an OK guy to me.

He has strong beliefs and stands up for them. Nothing wrong with that.

Tuckahoe
11-05-2013, 12:05
Rainman is more than just an ok guy. Three years ago my dad was back in Nashville visiting family when he was seriously injured in a motorcycle accident. I was out there two and a half months looking after dad and in that time I had a stranger --Rainman -- give me his phone number and an open offer to go somewhere if I needed a break. I also got a few emails checking up on me.

I never got to meet him but I have always been grateful of his offer and kindness.

Hot Flash
11-05-2013, 12:29
I have no problem with memorials as long as they don't destroy anything, don't litter on anything, and aren't religious in nature. Religious displays have no business being on public lands.

JAK
11-05-2013, 13:04
I have no problem with memorials as long as they don't destroy anything, don't litter on anything, and aren't religious in nature. Religious displays have no business being on public lands.That's what Nero days are for.

aficion
11-05-2013, 14:39
I have no problem with memorials as long as they don't destroy anything, don't litter on anything, and aren't religious in nature. Religious displays have no business being on public lands.

As I understand it we live in a land that embraces freedom of religion, not freedom from it.

bfayer
11-05-2013, 15:01
As I understand it we live in a land that embraces freedom of religion, not freedom from it.

Yea that whole "free exercise thereof" thing. confuses a lot of people :)

hikerboy57
11-05-2013, 15:05
Yea that whole "free exercise thereof" thing. confuses a lot of people :)
although it acknowledges freedom of religion, it also dictates separation of church and state.so now you need to think about how to memorialize christian soldiers in wilderness areas.

bfayer
11-05-2013, 15:24
although it acknowledges freedom of religion, it also dictates separation of church and state.so now you need to think about how to memorialize christian soldiers in wilderness areas.

It does not dictate "separation of church and state", it says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

But even if it did dictate a separation of church and state, that effects what the government can do, not what a private citizen can do.

The generalization of the first amendment by using the phase "separation of church and state", does not overrule the actual text of the first amendment.

Once we start redefining one part of the first amendment to favor government restrictions on protected behavior, the other parts will quickly follow.

Be careful what you ask for.

hikerboy57
11-05-2013, 15:36
It does not dictate "separation of church and state", it says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

But even if it did dictate a separation of church and state, that effects what the government can do, not what a private citizen can do.

The generalization of the first amendment by using the phase "separation of church and state", does not overrule the actual text of the first amendment.

Once we start redefining one part of the first amendment to favor government restrictions on protected behavior, the other parts will quickly follow.

Be careful what you ask for.
id rather keep both church and state out of the woods.including memorials in designated wilderness areas.

Another Kevin
11-05-2013, 15:47
WE send these men and women into harm's way to a life of sheer terror, privation and filth, make their families orphans and widows; whine about closed national parks without a peep for the soldier who may not be paid because of politcal games... and we are now going to whine and debate about temporary memorials to those that have died for us?

Do not confuse a difference of opinion - on whether this is the most appropriate way (or, indeed, an appropriate way at all) to honour the memory of our dead, with a difference of principle - on whether our dead deserve the honours. (Or read my original post again: how I feel on this subject is best summarized by: "It's complicated.")

I happen to believe that it would be far better to put the memorials in the public square, where far more will pass and remember, and where gratitude will not be mixed with puzzlement at, "why here?"

bfayer
11-05-2013, 15:57
id rather keep both church and state out of the woods.including memorials in designated wilderness areas.

Fair enough. I respect that.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

hikerboy57
11-05-2013, 16:22
Fair enough. I respect that.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
mutual respect is a wonderful thing. we can agree to disagree with civility.

bfayer
11-05-2013, 16:27
mutual respect is a wonderful thing. we can agree to disagree with civility.

Always :). A monolithic world would be a very boring place to hike in.

mcstick
11-05-2013, 16:42
Is there a connection between the fellas we are memorializing and the place where the memorials are being placed?

QHShowoman
11-05-2013, 17:01
Is there a connection between the fellas we are memorializing and the place where the memorials are being placed?

Other than the fact that the soldiers are all from Virginia and these hikes all appear to be within VA wilderness areas, there is no connection.

bfayer
11-05-2013, 18:18
Other than the fact that the soldiers are all from Virginia and these hikes all appear to be within VA wilderness areas, there is no connection.

Only a few are in designated wilderness areas. The vast majority are not.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

QHShowoman
11-05-2013, 19:19
Only a few are in designated wilderness areas. The vast majority are not.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

You're right.

johnnybgood
11-05-2013, 20:12
If you by chance run across a memorial for Staff Sgt. Jason Russell Arnette ,send me a pm .
Let me know where you saw it.
You see ,Jason was my nephew .

HikerMom58
11-05-2013, 20:23
mutual respect is a wonderful thing. we can agree to disagree with civility.

My hats off to you guys.... I respect both you and bfayer. :D There are so many others, on this site, that I look up 2... I can't begin to name them all. There's a lot! :>)

I happen to feel the same way as bfayer, on this one, but I can understand & respect other people's thoughts and feelings as well.

Wow- just saw your post johnnybgood... If I ever see it, u can count me in, I WILL pm you! Bless you!!