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View Full Version : Lensatic vs base plate what do you use??



JoeH
11-12-2013, 19:00
I'm looking for spending on a good compass for bushwacking have used both before but what do you guys think?

What do you use, weight does not matter I would need a sighting mirror for a baseplate

NY HIKER 50
11-12-2013, 20:20
this looks like a good one:








Silva Trekker Type 20 Compass
I have this one since I was an AT monitor and had to be in the woods off trail

Silva Ranger 515 Compass
hope this helps. The lensatic can be used but if you are using maps the other two would be better.

jefals
11-12-2013, 22:07
I don't have a lot of hiking experience yet, but I've been doing a lot of studying on this subject, reading and watching lots of youtubes on this. And although I tend to like lensactic, imo the consensus for hiking seems to be baseplate. A good lensatic, I think is going to be more expensive, and will weigh more. Plus I guess it's less hassle not dealing with the components of the lensatic (lens, cover, sighting wire) everytime you want to use it.

But whichever you choose, it's not a bad idea to be sure and get one with a declination adjustment.

Another Kevin
11-12-2013, 23:02
I'd say that about a third of my hikes involve at least some bushwhacking. i use a Brunton OSS 50M on most trips. It was inexpensive (about $40), has a mirror sight, adjustable declination, a clinometer that reads out in both degrees and per cent (with overlapping scales that you can use as a tangent table), and a clear baseplate (handy for marking up a map). It meets essentially all of my needs.

A lensatic is considerably less useful for bushwhacking, in my arrogant opinion. It gives a more accurate reading (not terribly important on a bushwhack, where if you're sensible you're "aiming off" by more than your compass error anyway). But you wind up needing a separate protractor and square, or planetable, or something to transfer the lensatic reading to a map, rather than simply using the ruler on the compass baseplate.

Wise Old Owl
11-12-2013, 23:43
These thread used to go for at least 75 posts with 400 views.

Sailing_Faith
11-12-2013, 23:47
These thread used to go for at least 75 posts with 400 views.

Yea, but the view count may still be high just because folks have no idea what the thread is about.....

Dogwood
11-13-2013, 00:13
I would like to know why you think "you need" a sighting mirror. I know why I might want one on a compass on occasion. Sorry if I'm not being helpful and I'm answering a question with a question but I do much bushwacking in the states and have never felt the "need" to have a sighting mirror. I'm asking not out of challenging your thought but just as I may be ignorant about why one feels a sighting mirror to be a "need"

Feral Bill
11-13-2013, 00:40
For taking bearings, I like an optical sighting compass. Suunto makes one for fairly cheap. I find it very easy to use.

rickb
11-13-2013, 00:57
For taking bearings, I like an optical sighting compass. Suunto makes one for fairly cheap. I find it very easy to use.

But you are from Washington State. Can you imagine ever needing a sighting mirror in the East?

Feral Bill
11-13-2013, 01:49
But you are from Washington State. Can you imagine ever needing a sighting mirror in the East?
Not really. Not for hiking.

garlic08
11-13-2013, 10:04
Yes, this is getting in to the arcane for the GPS and smartphone generation.

I carried a lensatic compass when I was a wildland firefighter (and used to train for better than 2 degree accuracy), but never for recreational hiking. I never felt I needed that kind of accuracy on or off trail, and when I hiked the CDT and PNT there was plenty of off-trail hiking. Same with the PCT in the Sierra snowpack. My cheap Silva has worked fine for decades.

AK voiced my opinion and mentioned a great tool for bushwhacking, the intentional offset. For me, five degree accuracy is fine, if coupled with decent map-reading skills, hiking and climbing skills, awareness, and experience.

jeffmeh
11-13-2013, 12:02
My compass is ancient, but if buying today I would go for the Suunto M3G, at 1.6 oz. The global needle feature makes it easy to use when hiking, as it does not need to be level to be true. And you can take it hiking in New Zealand. :) http://www.amazon.com/Suunto-SS014890000-M-3G-Global-Compass/dp/B000FEXZHQ

MuddyWaters
11-13-2013, 12:41
The problem with bushwacking in the eastern forest, is you cant see any landmarks to point a compass at, nothing but trees that engulf you.

All you can do is navigate by dead reckoning, which is nearly impossible given the constant obstacles.

jeffmeh
11-13-2013, 14:37
The problem with bushwacking in the eastern forest, is you cant see any landmarks to point a compass at, nothing but trees that engulf you.



All you can do is navigate by dead reckoning, which is nearly impossible given the constant obstacles.

It can indeed be challenging. You can try to spot the farthest distinctive tree on the bearing, go to it, and repeat, which may or may not be more accurate than a dead reckoning, depending upon the skill of the practitioner. :)

Major Bawls
11-13-2013, 14:47
I purchased a Konus Konustar about 20 years ago after contemplating life in unfriendly places. Heavy to be sure...but I wasn't exactly hiking...and accurate. A professional compass made to last.

JoeH
11-13-2013, 17:33
I'm not talking following a trail, I can use a compass just trying to perfect the skill.

I like the mirror baseplate more because it's more accurate at taking a bearing (view object and bearing at same time). But also hygiene (it's a mirror no weight penalty), used for signaling, allows you to use "cotangent tables"(distance), and reciprocal scale (location on map).

Plane baseplate compass I fell is far to inaccurate to just bushwack with. Just slight inaccuracies can have you far off.

Another Kevin
11-13-2013, 19:51
Plane baseplate compass I fell is far to inaccurate to just bushwack with. Just slight inaccuracies can have you far off.

Are we talking about bushwhacking in the East here? The only way you're going to have long lines of sight in the East is from a mountain top or cliff edge, or from a shoreline. (In either case, if you have a decent map and some situational awareness, there are much easier ways to determine where you are!) I don't think I've ever done a sight resection on a real bushwhack in the East - only ones in training classes (that I've learnt in or taught). On a short sight line, you're not going to be very far off even with a pretty substantial error.

In dense woods, which is mostly what we have here, you're sighting at the farthest tree or rock that you can see that's close to your intended direction of travel, and making for it. You're doing that over and over again, and intentionally aiming off from your intended direction. You control your travel with "handrails" - streams, ridges, cliffs, stone walls, park boundaries (marked with survey blazees!), fence lines, roads, trails - that your course will intersect. By aiming off, when you reach your handrail, you know which direction to turn. If you carry an altimeter - I do - you also have the advantage that every contour line on the map is a potential handrail.

Much more important that a precise sight is the ability to read maps and orthophotos and match them to what you see on the ground - and the situation awareness to keep your thumb on the map and know roughly where you are and where you're heading.. "I'm at 3250 feet, and I've come to a stream that flows roughly northwest" can give you a near-perfect fix. (And in fact, that came to mind because I used just such a fix on my last 'whack to as an attack point for an archaeologic site that I was aiming for, and that's tricky to find.)

Also, a lot of my bushwhacks are peak-bagging expeditions, and you need to worry about orienteering chiefly on the return trip. Finding the way to the summit is easy. It's up.

My chief reason for wanting a mirror sight is that I can dial in my intended heading, and then use the mirror to sight it with the compass at eye level. I can also hold the compass out farther from me than I could with a simple baseplate model, and hopefully be able to see well enough to center the needle. This can be a challenge, ever since my doctor inflicted trifocals on me.

jeffmeh
11-13-2013, 20:13
QUOTE=JoeH;1816771]

Plane baseplate compass I fell is far to inaccurate to just bushwack with. Just slight inaccuracies can have you far off.[/QUOTE]

Then I should be playing the lottery, as should quite a few of my comrades, who have successfully navigated some pretty challenging orienteering courses, with major obstacles including impenetrable thickets, swamps, and ponds, with a baseplate compass. We must have been very lucky.

Random error tends to cancel out over many sight bearings, and the occasional landmark you can determine from a map puts you back on course.

But by all means, BYOC (buy your own compass). :)

JoeH
11-13-2013, 21:17
ha lol dam Dr's, I was getting a little ahead of my self. This is one skill I'm trying to learn more about and not be reliant of gps or use one. I have to carry a altimeter that would help a lot (which one do you use?).

I just have to get back into the woods, I do to much dam reading on different skills and I get crazy lol. I have a new job so hopefully when things calm down i can get out. thanks

MuddyWaters
11-13-2013, 21:21
Plane baseplate compass I fell is far to inaccurate to just bushwack with. Just slight inaccuracies can have you far off.

2 degree error is 184' @ 1 mile.
You are allowed to take a bearing more than once as well.
Ive found a normal baseplate compass plenty accurate in shooting bearings to determining position on maps out west, even with all the inherent errors in facing the landmark, and plotting on map.

A lensatic is accurate for taking bearings, but doesnt mate up with a map, thats why they make the baseplate.

Mountain Mike
11-13-2013, 21:27
I like a mirror for accurate sightings & to have the mirror as mentioned above. I alway prefer offset navigating for bushwacking. aim to one side of a landmark so you always know if you have to go a little left or right to reach your destination.

Wise Old Owl
11-13-2013, 22:12
I dumped both for a smart phone... I prefer a sight in the past. - but to better answer the question the trails are well marked and less confusing.. the chance of clearing the woods for a sight on the AT is downright slim, a simple compass would be better to avoid going the wrong direction for a few miles. The few times I have been confused is jeep trails that cross and do dog legs.. and I miss a blaze. I honestly think about where the sun is on my face at almost all times, and take into account the season and azimuth. This works best when out at sea and cant see the shore in a kayak.

Just Bill
11-14-2013, 10:55
ha lol dam Dr's, I was getting a little ahead of my self. This is one skill I'm trying to learn more about and not be reliant of gps or use one. I have to carry a altimeter that would help a lot (which one do you use?).

I just have to get back into the woods, I do to much dam reading on different skills and I get crazy lol. I have a new job so hopefully when things calm down i can get out. thanks
Joe- Don't get intimidated- good for you trying to learn a skill most people these days scoff at. My dad had some nice military lens compasses for us to use in Scouts when we learned orienteering, but we only borrowed those and use cheap baseplates. I think most of the fine folks who have commented thus far all followed a similar pattern you'll find in any backwoods skill- gear is your crutch until you master the skill- and then your skill becomes the crutch for inferior gear.
If a tricked out compass gets you out, makes you more comfortable, and helps build your skill- then go for it. It takes time to learn to replace a good compass with good map and terrain reading. Another Kevin described it best- other things replace or greatly enhance compass-work in the long run. In the short run- use your compass.
Generally though- out east as mentioned you won't see too far. Midwest too really- but we went to prairies and meadows to create opportunities to see long distances while we learned. Out west you have space to take advantage of better compass's. A bit like a gun- you can hit a pop can 10' away with a slingshot, 100' with a handgun, 100 yards or more you need a rifle. A decent baseplate is good to a mile or so, depending on your eyesight.

You also might want to define your bushwhacking a bit for yourself- a weekend wanderabout (making it back to the car) is a bit different than finding food caches (hitting very small points in the middle of nowhere) in remote wilderness. Bottom line- as most folks mentioned- you don't need razor accuracy for backpacking. BUT- all the people telling you that have learned lots of tricks to supplement the cheap baseplate compass they carry. So get to it- Good for you!

One less person asking about the best GPS app is one more person I'm happy to see.

Another Kevin
11-14-2013, 17:07
Bottom line- as most folks mentioned- you don't need razor accuracy for backpacking. BUT- all the people telling you that have learned lots of tricks to supplement the cheap baseplate compass they carry. So get to it- Good for you!

One less person asking about the best GPS app is one more person I'm happy to see.

This. Although I'd not say that "skill is a crutch for inferior gear" - because I honestly believe that a baseplate compass is superior for this purpose. It spares me from having to carry a separate protractor and something to serve as a plotting board, because I can use it to transfer a heading directly to a map. Sure, it's less accurate - but accuracy doesn't buy me much on short reaches.

The important tricks are mostly map reading - learn what the contour lines, streams, fence lines, and so on are telling you. And then get practice in choosing points of departure, collecting features and attack points, handrails and capture features. Learn how the rocks lie where you hike. (Are the strata tilted? If they are, which side of the hills is slabby and which side is ledgy?) Learn your ecozone boundaries. For that matter, learn how to transfer coordinates back and forth between your GPS and your map. The big thing is trip planning.

A sample bushwhack plan (from a hike that I led successfully a couple of years ago) follows. I put the plan together with careful study of current and 1890 topo maps (the old one shows haul roads that are now abandoned), of orthophotos, and of several other hikers' trip reports. I describe some of my thinking in italics.

Point of departure is the Spruceton bridle path, where it makes a hairpin turn across a stream in Ox Hollow. Elevation approximately 2240 feet
Intersection of two linear features, one of which is a marked trail. Easy to find.

Proceed generally WNW for a few hundred feet, crossing one tributary stream and turning right on the ridge following. A second tributary stream indicates that the ridge has been passed.
The ridge is a collecting feature that will lead me toward an attack point. It's easy to follow once established. It's hard to find the start of the ridge in the mostly-level marshy ground down low, so I add a capture feature, or backstop, to tell me when I've gone too far.

Climb the spur at approximate true heading 350 for 1.2 miles. If necessary in the band of ledges at around 3200 feet, stray to the right, toward the Ox Hollow headwall. Crest the major ridge at elevation roughly 3540, near a saddle point. Ground slopes off abruptly to the north beyond this point.
The collecting feature that I've been following peters out, but leads me to a well-defined handrail - another ridge. The cliff to the north gives an obvious line to follow. Another hiker reports dense brush on and to the left of the ridge, so I plan to err right.

Follow the major ridge at true heading approximately 265, gradually turning left to approximately 245. Summit is reached in 0.5 mile at 3680 feet and is marked with a canister of PVC sewer pipe on the N side of a gray birch. After summit, ground falls off abruptly to the SW-W, with spurs S and NW.
The summit is one destination, but is also serving as a point of attack for the viewpoint that follows. The cliff edge is a backstop. On the actual trip, I spotted the canister from about 150 feet off. On other trips, I've sometimes had to drop my pack or plant a trekking pole as a reference and spiral out to find a cache.

From the summit, whack less than 0.1 mile at true heading roughly 195, to an exposed boulder with views to W and S.
This is the only point on the whole trip that's defined solely by bearing and range - and it has a well-defined nearby point of attack. It's also bleeding obvious once you can spot it through the trees. I'd seen this outcrop with binoculars from the other side of a valley, and then spotted it on an orthophoto.

Return to summit, and retrace the ridge back to the col above Ox Hollow. Continue on the ridge (true heading 80 or so) 0.25 miles to a height of land. Ridge bends right, follow it at true heading roughly 105 another 0.5 mile across a dip to a secondary summit at about 3640 feet. Err to the left if necessary, staying within the line of yellow survey blazes at state forest boundary.
I'm following a handrail, but have a secondary feature to follow if I have to stray. Once through the dip, "the summit is up" will get me to the next point of reference.

From secondary summit, a spur extends at true heading roughly 125. Descend this spur 0.9 miles. Err to the RIGHT to avoid missing the trail at a turnoff. If the fire tower ahead is visible, desired course is roughly 3 degrees to the left of it.
Another handrail, but ridges are hard to follow downhill. On the actual trip, I spent a lot of time fumbling through dense spruce, went too far to the right, and got caught in ledgy terrain that forced me even farther off course. I wound up spending the night on a ledge and finishing up in the morning. Not a big deal, I'd planned for the possibility, although I missed a really nice campsite about 3/4 mile after getting back on trail. In any case, I was aware of the compass at all times; I knew I'd fallen off the ridge and which way to go to get back on it - and which way to get back on trail - but it was simply hard to get up there.

Emerge at intersection with a woods road, in a col at elevation 2900. If the road is marked with blue blazes, turn left (E or NE) to begin the next ascent. If instead an unblazed and unmaintained grade, sloping downward to the left, is encountered, turn right (S) back to an intersection with the blue trail. Nearest water sources to this point are the Robb spring, 0.5 miles and 500 feet elevation gain, on the right of the trail, or an unnamed tributary of the Ox Hollow brook, 0.8 miles and 400 feet elevation loss, crossing trail. Escape route from this point is 1.0 mile north on the abandoned road, leading to a paved maintenance road at the west boundary of the ski area.
A well defined feature that gets me back on marked trail, and an easy bailout route (admittedly, involving some trespassing) in case someone needs it.

TAG
11-14-2013, 18:09
When I was back east, the compass I liked the most was the Sunnto Arrow 6. I originally bought it for orienteering. Super accurate and designed to be used while holding map and compass in one hand. In the think forest with lots of up and down, it was great to be able to course correct on the fly.
Now that I'm out west, I can often see for long distances and going cross country provides more challenges in the form of evil plants and reptiles. I now use a lensatic compass to provide a better sight line and accuracy.
Of course, YMMV.

johngo
12-12-2016, 00:46
Most recreational users are better served with a medium quality baseplate compass and not a military style lensatic compass. A great base plate compass is the Suunto M3. It has adjustable declination, which I would say is the most important feature, along with robust construction, a luminous dial, small magnifying lens, and a few other common features. Get it on Amazon, it's much less expensive than other outdoor stores. As of this writing, it's about $30.
No, I do not work for Suunto, I teach wilderness navigation to a lot of people and this is currently the best compass available for the average backpacker/climber/hunter.

Secondmouse
12-12-2016, 13:46
for trail hiking I have a Clipper compass on the chest strap of my pack for a quick look-see. it has always been as accurate as I need it to be. If I need a higher level of accuracy than what this provides or to back it up/confirm a reading, I have the compass/GPS on my phone and on my Suunto Ambit2 GPS watch. all three give me a high level of confidence I can find the trail again after I step off to poop.

IME, a baseplate works just fine for mapwork but I bought a Lensatic because I like have a mirror to look at my ugly mug or for signaling...