Cooking at shelters [Archive]

Beccah

11-13-2013, 21:28

Wise Old Owl

11-13-2013, 21:37

Bears don't enjoy cooking. - They are far more patient.

Bears prefer - all night long!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjACFd24tno

aficion

11-13-2013, 21:38

Shelters concentrate mice, people, and problem bears into an area. This is because of the food humans, bring, cook, leave out, hang nearby, and drop about. If you cook in a shelter, be sure not to burn it down. Some of us who won't stay anywhere near one, for obvious reasons, kind of appreciate their being there. Leaves more elbow room for those who like to sleep in the woods.

rickb

11-13-2013, 21:41

Most thu hikers count themselves lucky to see a bear at a shelter. I think I will post a poll.

aficion

11-13-2013, 22:10

Most thu hikers count themselves lucky to see a bear at a shelter. I think I will post a poll.

The scout troop around Byrd's Nest shelter on Old Rag weren't thu hikers, just overnighters, yet they did not consider themselves lucky to see the two bears rip through several of their tents. We were camped a tenth of a mile away and were only spared because we tended a medium sized fire all night. We frequently saw the two bears circling our camp throughout the night. The memory of the screams of the scouts helped keep us awake. Some park bears will come right into camp.l

Sarcasm the elf

11-13-2013, 22:55

Total newbie question:

All of the advice I've seen about camping in bear country has suggested the 100m triangle for optimum safety (cook, hang, and sleep in 3 different places 100m apart from each other). However, a lot of the photos I see from AT shelters shows cook stoves and meals set up at the shelter. Does anyone think this promotes bear encounters at shelters? Or do you think bears will check out shelters either way since humans = food?

I recently checked out trail updates on the ATC website and it seemed like a lot of them involved nuisance bears at various shelters. Then today, I saw a YouTube video where a group of hikers placed their food bags on top of the shelter as there was no ideal hang location and no bear cables. While the story was anecdotal and I got a good laugh out of it, I wondered why the hikers were all surprised to wake up and find a bear trying to climb the shelter.

I'm just curious what people's opinions are of this.

Welcome to whiteblaze! :welcome

There is a lot of advice available about proper procedures when camping in bear country (some of which is reputable and some of which is not.) I don't claim to be an expert but there are a few things I can tell you:

First off the only bear species on the east coast and on the Appalachian Trail is the American Black bear, much of the advice you find about bears is actually advice about hiking in grizzly bear country, and they just lump black bears in with them, for better or worse. The two species behave very differently.

Black bears are normally afraid of humans unless they have been conditioned to associate humans with food, and even then they are almost always a nuisance and not a threat.

The majority of A.T. hikers do a piss poor job of safe cooking and food storage and I feel fairly confident that I can state this as fact without anyone objecting.

When it comes to being near shelters it's safe to assume that someone already cooked inside the shelter itself, probably recently. Additionally many, many hikers either store their food inside shelters at night or do such a terrible job setting up a bear bag for their food that they are just asking for problems. So don't trust that your "best practices" are going to ensure that a bear won't just wander into camp out of habit.

If you want to get serious about safely storing your food, google the "PCT method" of bear bagging and learn to hang it properly, making sure it's high enough off the ground, far enough from the trunk of a tree and hanging from a limb that is not strong enough to support a bear's weight.

Here is just one of many videos on youtube demonstrating the technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgBLDMuPuvE

If you want to learn about black bears and their temperment here is a great sight to read through: http://www.bear.org/website/

Bonus fun fact (just because I like posting it) Mother Black Bears DO NOT violently defend their cubs, that is a Grizzly bear trait. Black bears are excellent climbers and when threatened the cubs quickly scurry up the closest tree to safety while the mother usually puts on a show or runs away. Reference link (http://www.bear.org/website/bear-pages/black-bear/bears-a-humans/39-what-if-i-get-between-a-black-bear-mother-and-her-cubs.html)

HooKooDooKu

11-13-2013, 23:31

Whe majority of A.T. hikers do a piss poor job of safe cooking and food storage and I feel fairly confident that I can state this as fact without anyone objecting.
Yea, agreed (and thanks for posting some generally great information on the black bears).

I know the shelters in the GSMNP warn about keeping food away from the sleeping areas... but you'll still see people sitting on the sleeping platforms eating (and spilling) there dinner.

tdoczi

11-14-2013, 07:52

Total newbie question:

All of the advice I've seen about camping in bear country has suggested the 100m triangle for optimum safety (cook, hang, and sleep in 3 different places 100m apart from each other).

that's GRIZZLY bear country procedure, not followed at all on the AT and with so many people not doing that you doing it yourself probably wouldn't keep you safe.

garlic08

11-14-2013, 08:38

A lot of people, me included, are pretty cavalier about black bears. Some even sleep with their food as a pillow. Black bears usually run away, are non-predatory, and all they care about is a little free food. There's no comparison between them and grizzlies, right? But I did a little reading about bear attacks in the continental US, and discovered that most fatalities have been by black bears in the East. Of course, much of that is due to the higher population of both species. And there are stories like post #5 above--yikes. That toned down my cavalier attitude a bit, and I exercised standard Western precautions (PCT method) on the AT. I kept my shelter-area nights to a minimum.

Beccah

11-14-2013, 10:01

Thanks for the info! All of the camping I've done has been east of the Mississippi, so black bears are the only type of bears I'm familiar with. So far, the only experiences I've had with them is when they walk past my tent on the way to another campsite where someone hasn't kept a clean site. I'm familiar with the PCT method and I've hung bags before (largely to avoid racoons and rodents, which in my area are far worse offenders than the bears). I'm curious what people do when they find themselves in an area where there isn't a tree with a suitable branch. The video I mentioned in my first post about the campers who put their food on the roof of the shelter did so because they couldn't find a place to hang a bag and there were no cables.

I guess what it boils down to is that I like to think AT hikers, whether thru or not, are people who care about the outdoors and have a concern about conservation. I think the best practices of keeping a clean camp and watching where you eat/cook and store food isn't so much about making sure you don't have a bear encounter as it is about trying to keep the bear from having a human encounter. So, I guess it just makes me scratch my head to see photos of hikers who don't keep a clean camp. I don't know if I'm really explaining myself well...

hikerboy57

11-14-2013, 10:06

you're explaining yourself just fine, and many here will agree. but the shelters will attract critters no matter what. its not just at hikers using them and people will eat at them.so the best you can do is set a good example.

Coffee

11-14-2013, 10:12

I think the best practices of keeping a clean camp and watching where you eat/cook and store food isn't so much about making sure you don't have a bear encounter as it is about trying to keep the bear from having a human encounter.

That's always been my point of view as well. Human-Black Bear encounters are almost always much worse for the bear than humans.

Nak

01-09-2014, 11:02

what worked best for my evening routine was to cook, eat and brush teeth at the shelter. Much more comfortable with a table and a place to sit. Then hike up the trail for how ever long you want and pitch camp. However, if your set on staying at the shelters...good luck.

ezdoesit

01-09-2014, 11:38

Blissful

01-09-2014, 22:44

The scout troop around Byrd's Nest shelter on Old Rag weren't thu hikers, just overnighters, yet they did not consider themselves lucky to see the two bears rip through several of their tents. We were camped a tenth of a mile away and were only spared because we tended a medium sized fire all night. We frequently saw the two bears circling our camp throughout the night. The memory of the screams of the scouts helped keep us awake. Some park bears will come right into camp.l

They should not have been there in the first place. No camping allowed in the vicinity of these shelter areas on Old rag. You must be 1/4 mile away.

lemon b

01-10-2014, 08:48

I try and keep a clean camp. In my experience bears are more a function of whose been in a specific area before and if they left food in the open.

RedBeerd

01-10-2014, 11:26

this guy visited us during our back country season:
http://www.thebearwhisperer.com/

and i remember him saying black bears are the lazy stoners of the bear world. you should be honored to see one and they are entirely harmless. they just want to eat, clearly.
its probably better just to avoid shelters and then you don't have to worry about it. i like to do the cooking at shelters and then take off a little ways away and tent. the best of both worlds.

we all had to take turns sleeping in front of the meat coolers in camp which is how its been done in the back country program since 1979. there has never been a problem. but one night a bear got into a nearby packers garbage and it came back like clockwork..people just need to use common sense.

4eyedbuzzard

01-10-2014, 15:11

Comment on eastern black bear attacks: Most fatal eastern attacks have been in eastern Canada, not US, and many have been rogue males that indeed hunted or stumbled upon their human victims. Only a couple attacks were in the U.S. Most recently one in NY State and one in GSMNP, both a number of years ago. Experts say that if a black bear ever does really attack you, don't roll up and play dead. Their behavior is different from Grizzlies. It is planning on eating you. Fight for your life.

Just some thoughts that run a bit counter to the "odor proof" bags and such concept: Black bears have a sense of smell reportedly 7 times better than those bloodhounds that can track you down days and miles away after you escape from the asylum :D , and 1000's of times better than ours. We and everything we touch and wear and carry positively reeks of our food to them. Our food is in and out of our pack, then we touch it, prepare it, and we unknowingly spread all these minute food particles and oils and odors on everything we have from clothing to gear to even the outside surface of our "odor proof" food bag - which now smells like food . . .

There is just no way that you and everything you carry don't smell like food (and human BO) to a bear that is even miles away. It's good that most bears associate human BO with trouble rather than an easy meal, or see humans as potential prey. Because finding humans would be no big challenge for them.

That all said, not sleeping with your food, and keeping as food odor free as possible is a pretty damn sensible policy. I especially don't eat in or near my sleeping bag if I can avoid it. Bears are the biggest, fastest, alpha predator in the eastern forest, and as with any "wild" animal, their behavior by definition is sometimes unpredictable. Why tempt fate?

RED-DOG

01-11-2014, 13:30

The Shelter's is about the only place you will see a bear on a thru-hike unless you are lucky enough to get a glimpes of ones back end while it's running through the woods, every once in a while you might get one walking across the trail but thats about it, I have had a few encounters with bears but all them was at or near Shelters, don't cook at shelters for obvious reasons, and alot of people do especially when it's cold. but on a rare occassion when i sleep in a shelter, I am more worried about the Mice than the Bears, those shelter mice can be down right viscious. But seriously the only place i have actually been worried about bears Was in the Rockies and farther west then i did the 100m apart as you described and had no Problems with bears but i did have a few encounters with Wolves but thats a different story.

aficion

01-11-2014, 14:40

They should not have been there in the first place. No camping allowed in the vicinity of these shelter areas on Old rag. You must be 1/4 mile away.

Back in 1972 you could camp anywhere on Old Rag that you pleased, and we did many times.

Sarcasm the elf

01-11-2014, 17:11

Bears are the biggest, fastest, alpha predator in the eastern forest, and as with any "wild" animal, their behavior by definition is sometimes unpredictable. Why tempt fate?

Humans are the current alpha predator in the Eastern Forest, black bears have never been an alpha predator, they are a flighty omnivore that primarily forages and scavenges..

Historically they were far lower on the food chain than the short nosed bear, the America lion, Dire Wolves, Grey wolves, mountain lions, and the several other more powerful predators that were native to our country a few millennia ago. These real alpha predators were driven to extinction (most of them anyway) by early man as we moved in and slowly killed off the animals that were a threat to our survival. The reason that the black bear is still around is because they see man as a predator and it is in their nature to run away first and ask questions later.

I'm a firm supporter of proper food storage and do believe it's our responsibility not to create situations that cause habituated problem bear's (a fed bear is a dead bear). But I have no interest in perpetuating people's fears about these animals.

MDSection12

01-11-2014, 17:55

Back in 1972 you could camp anywhere on Old Rag that you pleased, and we did many times.
We were told anywhere below the elevation of the shelter was acceptable two years ago. This included a small shelf very near the shelter. We even had a trail liaison of some kind stop by and check on us, he did not have any problem with our site... In fact he showed us a 'secret' spring near the summit. I cherish that knowledge. :)

aficion

01-11-2014, 19:46

We were told anywhere below the elevation of the shelter was acceptable two years ago. This included a small shelf very near the shelter. We even had a trail liaison of some kind stop by and check on us, he did not have any problem with our site... In fact he showed us a 'secret' spring near the summit. I cherish that knowledge. :)

Love it. Local knowledge beats all. Many "folks" don't realize how many special spots are out there , just off the beaten path. Hopefully it will stay that way.

MDSection12

01-11-2014, 19:59

Love it. Local knowledge beats all. Many "folks" don't realize how many special spots are out there , just off the beaten path. Hopefully it will stay that way.
The best part is I couldn't tell you if I wanted. I have an idea of what reference number it's by, but I'd have to see it to be sure. :D

Del Q

01-11-2014, 20:14

So I am hiking NOBO on a Fall section hike, in Northern Mass, rare night in a (clean) shelter, a thru hiker comes into camp at sunset, cooks dinner and spreads what is left in his cook pot about 20' from the shelter.

Reminded me that we have no idea what went on the day before, etc.

As stated above, how well bears can smell, no wonder there are places that they frequent.

4eyedbuzzard

01-11-2014, 21:31

Humans are the current alpha predator in the Eastern Forest, black bears have never been an alpha predator, they are a flighty omnivore that primarily forages and scavenges..

Historically they were far lower on the food chain than the short nosed bear, the America lion, Dire Wolves, Grey wolves, mountain lions, and the several other more powerful predators that were native to our country a few millennia ago. These real alpha predators were driven to extinction (most of them anyway) by early man as we moved in and slowly killed off the animals that were a threat to our survival. The reason that the black bear is still around is because they see man as a predator and it is in their nature to run away first and ask questions later.

I'm a firm supporter of proper food storage and do believe it's our responsibility not to create situations that cause habituated problem bear's (a fed bear is a dead bear). But I have no interest in perpetuating people's fears about these animals.Sorry, but the facts are that (perhaps other than humans armed with weapons? ), black bears are at this moment in history the alpha/apex predator in the eastern US and Canada forest. Ask any zoologist. The rest you cite is but history of extinct or displaced species.
IMO, a equally bad myth is to perpetuate is that bears are nothing more than overgrown raccoons. They are large WILD animals, and by definition their behavior cannot be predicted with absolute certainty. While very rare and unlikely, the facts are that wild black bears have unfortunately attacked, killed, and even eaten humans in the eastern US and Canada - 5 occurrences in the last 15 years, 3 of which were in the eastern Appalachians.
That doesn't mean that people should have some morbid fear of what are generally very timid animals that would rather avoid humans than anything else. But ignoring or misstating the facts doesn't lend credibility to anyone educating people about them and how to respect them and behave when in their territory.

Sarcasm the elf

01-11-2014, 22:31

Sorry, but the facts are that (perhaps other than humans armed with weapons? ), black bears are at this moment in history the alpha/apex predator in the eastern US and Canada forest. Ask any zoologist. The rest you cite is but history of extinct or displaced species.
IMO, a equally bad myth is to perpetuate is that bears are nothing more than overgrown raccoons. They are large WILD animals, and by definition their behavior cannot be predicted with absolute certainty. While very rare and unlikely, the facts are that wild black bears have unfortunately attacked, killed, and even eaten humans in the eastern US and Canada - 5 occurrences in the last 15 years, 3 of which were in the eastern Appalachians.
That doesn't mean that people should have some morbid fear of what are generally very timid animals that would rather avoid humans than anything else. But ignoring or misstating the facts doesn't lend credibility to anyone educating people about them and how to respect them and behave when in their territory.

4Eyedbuzzard, it is very easy to post things on the Internet that can be misinterpreted and it is very easy to misinterpret what you read here. So let me say that we are in at least 95% agreement. Bears are large wild animals and should be treated as such, an encounter with them can be dangerous and I don't suggest people should be cavalier about them.

As you said the fact is that at least 5 people have been killed by bears in North America in the last 15 years. To put that number in perspective, in the US alone 40,000 people are killed by cars, 10,000 by guns and 200 by pitbulls every year and I don't fear any of those things. Black bears are certainly capable of killing a human, I give them respect and space when needed and take recommended precautions regarding food storage, however I stand by my belief that it is not generally in their nature to attack humans and that they are one of the single most overhyped dangers of hiking the A.T.

And since you mention it (as well as to add a bit of humor to this post) let me state for the record that I would absolutely be more scared of a 300lb raccoon than a 300lb black bear.

4eyedbuzzard

01-11-2014, 22:54

I stand by my belief that it is not generally in their nature to attack humans and that they are one of the single most overhyped dangers of hiking the A.T.

And since you mention it (as well as to add a bit of humor to this post) let me state for the record that I would absolutely be more scared of a 300lb raccoon than a 300lb black bear. Agree, very over-hyped as a danger. On the humorous note, I once had a run in with a 15 lb raccoon in my house that rivaled scenes from a Tasmanian Devil cartoon. Feisty little SOB's.

MuddyWaters

01-11-2014, 23:31

You have a greater chance of being bit by a rabid racoon, than being attacked by a black bear in the eastern U.S.

Is it possible to encounter a rare bear, or rare circumstance that would cause one too? Yes.

So is being murdered in your home. In fact, that may be more likely as well.

You cant worry about things outside of your ability to control however. Or maybe you can, but your wasting your time.

jimmyjam

01-12-2014, 00:15

Furlough

01-12-2014, 12:00

Agree, very over-hyped as a danger. On the humorous note, I once had a run in with a 15 lb raccoon in my house that rivaled scenes from a Tasmanian Devil cartoon. Feisty little SOB's.

Several years back I was with my son's Boy Scout troop at Laurel Caverns in PA. His patrol had a couple of those extra large Tupperware storage containers to store their non refrigerated food in. After lights out I got some spare bungee cords from my jeep to further secure the lids. About 2 am I was awoken by a large raccoon sitting on the container strumming the bungee cords like a bass guitar. He'd pluck the bungees and they would smack the lid. DA DOOOM DOOOM DOOOM. I shined him with my flashlight and he gave me a look like get that damn light out of my face. Would not leave until I got out of the tent. Cheeky little critters.

Del Q

01-12-2014, 20:19

That is pretty funny, a 300 lb raccoon. How about a 300lb ant or any other creature for that matter?

I often hang at the shelters, use the picnic table, hang my food in the shelter then tent a distance away. Figure if bears or whatever shows up I will probably hear it.................as I sleep nice and cozy in my bug free, mouse free tent.

Beccah

01-22-2014, 00:01

Rolls Kanardly

01-22-2014, 15:44

I am looking for the owner of the post where brownies were cooked at a shelter. Please PM me if you know this member or are this member. I want to discuss the cooking setup used. I have my hobo stove converted to an oven but it is a little heavy. Rolls Kanardly

Abatis1948

02-06-2014, 18:32

Bears don't enjoy cooking. - They are far more patient.

Bears prefer - all night long!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjACFd24tno What a well done film. Thank you for taking the time to put it together.

George

02-07-2014, 00:25

Thanks for all the comments. I should point out (I think I've said it before) that my questions don't come out of a fear of bears. If I were going to list the things I worry about, bears would fall down the list after hypothermia, crazy people, injuring myself, ticks, snakes, moose, rabid racoons... Personally, I don't enjoy the middle of the night black bear wake-up call when someone camping in my vicinity has "invited" them over by not practicing cleanliness. I think I'm going to end up taking people's suggestions to eat at the shelters and then camp farther down the line.

there you go, you have information, your decision and a plan:

there is a lot of cooking / eating at shelters

so I do not want to stay at shelters

I will add to the problem, by doing my cooking and eating at the shelter

but when it storms ???
and will you then be back on WB shelter bashing?

Drybones

02-07-2014, 12:04

The best practices you hear about on this site are not what you encounter on the trail, every shelter will have hikers cooking meals and hanging thier food in the shelter.

ChuckT

02-07-2014, 13:38

Just by way of speculation - what _would_ happen if all the shelters were dismantled?

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Conure

02-07-2014, 15:22

Just by way of speculation - what _would_ happen if all the shelters were dismantled?

What a horrifying thought! Where would all the people I'm trying to stay away from go? : )

George

02-07-2014, 16:23

Just by way of speculation - what _would_ happen if all the shelters were dismantled?

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Go on the PCT and find out, my speculation is without the privies associated with shelters, you have a lot of crap minefields around popular camping areas - like the smokies shelters

ChuckT

02-08-2014, 12:24

Been on the PCT. Whitney and, later, Crater Lake. I didn't see the TP blooming then. Tho one very popular lake in the 3 Sisters was closed from over use.
Next AT hike I'm taking a hammock and mapping water sources. Probably visit as I pass the shelters but mice as close encounters don't excite me none!

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