View Full Version : barney fife of the a.t.
anybody been hiking on the a.t. in the smokies lately? watch out for ridgerunner glen. he's doing his best to annoy and offend every hiker he meets, demanding to see their permits and otherwise abusing his position. i'm not sure who he thinks he is. of course, he has no authority to check permits and he must have missed the ridgerunner training class in which they instruct ridgerunners to be friendly to hikers, not rude. a father and son who were hiking from springer to damascus told me that ridgerunner glen gave them all manner of grief for eating their lunch inside spence field shelter as hurricane dennis raged outside. that's crazy. i'm thinking about complaining to the hiking club about this guy. he's giving ridgerunners a bad name.
mingo
Sounds like a goof ball and a wannabe. Did you offer him a donut? :rolleyes:
Buckingham
08-23-2005, 12:52
Next time you run into this ray of sunshine, tell him not to be so grumpy. The cost of penile implants are at an all time low.
:banana
I'm not sure who "Glenn" is, but if it's who I think it is - Gizmo - he is a really good guy, and a Whiteblaze member. I have always enjoyed his company. Y'all shouldn't be so quick to judge - unless you had a bad experience - that you didn't bring upon yourself.
Ridgerunners have to deal with all manner of Knuckleheads. As A-Train. I'm sure he could amuse us with horror stories for hours.
well if he's a white blaze contributor, mayhaps glenn or gizmo or whatever his name is can explain why he's demanding to check the permits of every hiker he encounters and why he's dressing down hikers for trivial offenses like eating crackers inside a shelter during a damn rainstorm. i can't see there's any excuse for his rude behavior. he signed on to deal with knuckleheads. he's getting paid to do it.
Jack Tarlin
08-23-2005, 14:03
Different ridgerunners operate differently in different areas, depending on who they're working with or for.
The NPS is notoriously short-staffed in the Smokies; I've been thru there many times and never seen even one ranger.
It could well be that in this particular area, the section ridgerunner is EXPECTED to check for permits as part of his duties, in order to assist the rangers who may be unable to do this because of staffing, scheduling, budget cuts, etc. It could well be that the ridgerunner here is taking on duties BY REQUEST of his supervisors, duties that are normally done by Rangers or other Park personnel. To say that he's doing stuff without proper authority may well be wrong in this case.....he could be doing exactly what he's been told to do.
I think, then, that before we're too quick to judge this particular individual, we might want to consider that in some of the instances and examples cited above, the ridgerunner was simply doing his job as per the directives of his supervisors and employers. If done with courtesy and civility, I see no reason why ridgerunners can't also do things like check permits, in order to make sure people are in the park according to posted regulations. Taking on additional duties such as this may well free up Rangers and Park Police to do other things, such as Law Enforcement, Search and Rescue, etc. When human resources are stretcheed thin, it wouldn't surprise me at all that some folks are given additional things to do.
That being said, if he's doing this all on his own initiative, doing it rudely, or is throwing folks out of a shelter into a storm, he probably needs a bit of correction!
Youngblood
08-23-2005, 14:08
I don't know if the ridgerunner in question is Gizmo or not or if that really makes a difference. FWIW, the Gizmo I know is a good guy. If he is asking to see permits and dressing down hikers who are eating in shelters, I would expect there to be a good reason for it and for him to inform people as to what that reason is. I believe that Gizmo, as well as the other ridgerunners I have run across, takes the ridgerunner job seriously and tries to education hikers so that things work out like they should. I don't what the problem is but if you met Gizmo I would think you would. For instance, maybe people are using shelters without permits and people with permits are finding themselves with no room in the shelters. As far as food, maybe a particular shelter is having problems with critters, like bears... and despite signs and notices maybe some yahoos are eating and leaving food in shelters that attracts bears. Sometimes this contributes or creates problem bears and results in the animal being destroyed.
See, I wouldn't have a problem if someone at a shelter asked to see my permit because I would have one. If the shelter had notices about not eating in the shelter, I wouldn't. But if for some reason I did and someone informed me of the notice/rule, I would not get offended. I would do the right thing... appologize and quit doing it.
So, what did the ridgerunner say that was out of line?
Youngblood
ridgerunner glen is just plain rude. ridgerunners are supposed to politely explain leave-no-trace principles to hikers. that's their job, in addition to picking up trash and cleaning privys and doing trail maintenance, etc. it does no good for ridgerunners to scold people in a harsh manner. in fact, it's counter-productive because it makes a lot of people less willing to follow the rules. they break the rules just to spite the ridgerunner if he has pissed them off by his attitude. the same applies for checking permits. it instigates conflict with hikers to ask to see their permits when you have no authority to do so. the other ridgerunner up there, jim, doesn't even ask you whether you have a permit. no other ridgerunner that i've ever met up there -- and i've met several over the years -- has ever asked for my permit. (by the way, i had a permit; i was legal, but i refused to let glen see it. it was none of his business.)
Youngblood
08-23-2005, 14:31
Barney Fife, or even Gomer would likely have made a citizen's arrest on you.:banana
dougmeredith
08-23-2005, 15:18
it instigates conflict with hikers to ask to see their permits when you have no authority to do so.
I'm curious about this statement. Who has this athority and how is it granted? Is there a law that actually specifies who has this athority, or is it just a job description issue?
Doug
park rangers have the authority. who else? it's a park permit. ridgerunners work for the smoky mountain hiking club. they have no authority at all.
You can't legally eat in a shelter? Where are you supposed to eat, always outside? I never heard of that. I know they have eating areas in Glacier, but never heard of such a thing in the Smokies.
Many of the newly rebuilt shelters have benches and tops that look like they're expressly designed for eating.
I don't know enough about the Smokies to comment on this precise situation, or this ridgerunner.
But the other national park unit through which the AT runs, Shenandoah National Park, is a close cousin and I'm very familiar with it, and its ridgerunners.
Our ridgerunners are hired through the ATC regional office in conjunction with the local maintaining club (PATC) and are supposed to be the Park Service's eyes and ears. They hike their section in one direction, then do a yo-yo the other way. They work 10 days straight and get four days off.
Their job description includes dealing with, or reporting, problems they encounter along the AT. These can be physical problems, like downed trees, damaged facilities, etc. or they can be people problems. They are supposed to help educate the hiking public about the Park, its natural and historic features, help people find their way, and teach LNT. They are supposed to inform people about various regulations, but not enforce those regs. They are supposed to do light maintenance along the trail, at shelters, etc. And once in awhile they may be called upon to participate in special projects ranging from National Trails Day events to search-and-rescues.
They are supposed to carry radios (much too heavy IMHO) to communicate with SNP Law Enforcement. If they cannot gently pursuade someone to mend their evil ways they have the option of calling in the men and women with guns who will do so, maybe not-so-gently.
There is a legitimate reason not to eat (or store food) in shelters, that being that the crumbs no one picks up and/or the unwanted food left behind is a major attraction for the mice we all complain about. In SNP it is only a guideline, not a reg. In the Smokies -- that would be a good question to ask someone there.
Each ridgerunner, and Park Ranger for that matter, we can hope has sufficient people skills not to unnecessarily incite problems that could be handled in a more professional manner. If this ridgerunner (at least in SNP) made a habit of starting confrontations with people instead of using his skills to avoid confrontation but still get the desired result, he should expect to eventually be called on the carpet for it.
Of course, we've only heard one side of the story here--I know first-hand there are more hikers with poor people skills than there are ridgerunners and Rangers with poor people skills.
ridgerunner glen is just plain rude.Is this first hand information you are passing out? If so, please let us know what was said.
If you are merely passing on someone else's complaint, then the above statement is a tad strong.
Sorry, but I get suspicious when someone says something like, "He is demanding to see all hikers' permits."
If you followed him around and he asked for a permit form everyone, fine. But if some hiker friend of yours complained to you that he was asked for a permit, it's quite a jump for you to then state that the ridgerunner is asking for everyone's permits and being rude in the process.
I'm not saying the ridgerunner isn't doing this - I've met some pretty rude people on the trail, including one AMC croo person - only that you are making some powerful accusations and not backing them up with anything.
Give us the facts as you observed them, and we will understand better.
(by the way, i had a permit; i was legal, but i refused to let glen see it. it was none of his business.)
Mingo, was your permit the type you recently advocated in a different thread?
all you really have to do is write "thru-hiker" on one of those backcountry permits and you can go anywhere on the a.t. anytime you please in the smokies and no one will be the wiser. as long as you're willing to sleep outside if the shelters are full of people with reservations, it's no problem
Just curious...
jesus, frosty, what is this? a court of law? i wasn't taking notes during our brief encounter. i thought he was rude. other hikers told me they thought he was rude to them too. i made another trip to the smokies earlier this year and hikers told me then that he was rude to them. that's the extent of my knowledge about ridgerunner glen. any more questions, counselor? and my permit was actually all made out properly and i even had a damn reservation confirmation number.
At an ATC Conference, Gizzmo's gossipy comments about a well known trail Angel/Service Provider, got under my skin to the point that I had to leave the room. I did interupt his presentation to suggest that many well respected members of the AT community had a very different vew of the "facts" that he was sharing. There was a muttering of agreement in the audience, but my wife was in such a state of shock that I had risen to my feet I figured it was time for me to go.
Frankly, he was lucky that some other participant in this thread were not in attendence. As for the part of his talk that I did catch, overbearing comes to mind.
dougmeredith
08-23-2005, 17:35
park rangers have the authority. who else?
I'm sure I don't know; that's why I asked.
it's a park permit. ridgerunners work for the smoky mountain hiking club. they have no authority at all.
From this it would seem reasonable to assume that park management decides who has the athority to check permits. How do you know they haven't given the ridgerunners this athority?
Doug
ps. I'm just playing devil's advocate a bit here to get a better understanding of the facts. It pisses me off too when people assume athority they don't have.
Jack Tarlin
08-23-2005, 17:36
People that have a legitimate complaint about this individual, if they care enough about the matter, should lodge their complaints and voice their concerns through proper channels, i.e., discover who is supervisor is, and write them a signed letter.
People that are making comments based on hearsay or second or third-hand
knowledge might want to temper their comments a bit.
People that are making comments based on first-hand knowledge or experience with the individual in question should be given a bit more credence here: If they say they've personally seen or witnessed something improper, I'm inclined to believe them. Why would anyone make up something like this?
But once again, some of the actions of this guy (permit checking, for example) might be being done not on his own ititiative, but because he's been specifically instructed to do so. If you object to HOW he's doing his job, that's one thing, but it's more difficult to complain if you discover that he's MERELY doing his job.....personnally, I've seen enough clowns and idiots in the Smokies that I think it's great that someone is checking to make sure people are obeying park rules and regulations (i.e. permits) as long as this is being done in a proper and courteous manner.
I think that some of the folks commenting on this are making assumptions and judments not necessarily based on their OWN first-hand experiences, and this sometimes leads to mistakes.
Commenting on something you've seen or witnessed is entirely justifiable and proper. Commenting on something you don't necessarily have the facts on is gossip and speculation.
The cost of penile implants are at an all time low.
:banana
How (and why) do you know that?
Buckingham
08-23-2005, 17:58
How (and why) do you know that?Ummm, uuhhhh, a uh, friend told me that. Yeah, that's what it was.
jesus, frosty, what is this? a court of law? i wasn't taking notes during our brief encounter. i thought he was rude. other hikers told me they thought he was rude to them too. i made another trip to the smokies earlier this year and hikers told me then that he was rude to them. that's the extent of my knowledge about ridgerunner glen. any more questions, counselor?You seem so nice and pleasant a fellow. It's a shame someone was rude to you.
I'm not sure who "Glenn" is, but if it's who I think it is - Gizmo - he is a really good guy, and a Whiteblaze member. I have always enjoyed his company. Y'all shouldn't be so quick to judge - unless you had a bad experience - that you didn't bring upon yourself.
Ridgerunners have to deal with all manner of Knuckleheads. As A-Train. I'm sure he could amuse us with horror stories for hours.it is gizmo and he is a personal friend of mine....i have his email and am going to let him know what this mingo chap is saying about him.....he will not put up with too much junk when it comes to the trail and those that are on it, i've seen him in action already....however he handles himself in a respectful manner....i'm surre whatever has happened between you and gizmo is of your own doing....
park rangers have the authority. who else? it's a park permit. ridgerunners work for the smoky mountain hiking club. they have no authority at all.well my friend, this ridgerunner that you are talking about works for none other than the ATC in conjunction with the Smoky Mtn Natuional Park....so i would suggest that you need to do your homework before you come on here with your off the wall statements about someone you nothing about....the man is just doing his job! and you are not going to convince many of us who know him that he some off the wall jerk! he has been doing this job for some time now, so i am comfortable in knowing that he must be doing a very good job at it...you however seem to need an attitude experience that will help you see things in a different light...are you a hiker thru and thru or are some weekend warrior that wants to come on here and trash a good man?
jesus, frosty, what is this? a court of law? i wasn't taking notes during our brief encounter. i thought he was rude. other hikers told me they thought he was rude to them too. i made another trip to the smokies earlier this year and hikers told me then that he was rude to them. that's the extent of my knowledge about ridgerunner glen. any more questions, counselor? and my permit was actually all made out properly and i even had a damn reservation confirmation number.ah, tis is true...you are a weekend warrior then????
You seem so nice and pleasant a fellow. It's a shame someone was rude to you.i seem to have noticed that too about this chap......yes, yes, yes i do believe you may have gotten your bluff called by glen but that is all.....and now your getting your bluff called here as well.....come on mingo tell us the whole truth of the story and nothing but the truth.....
dougmeredith
08-23-2005, 19:34
.are you a hiker thru and thru or are some weekend warrior that wants to come on here and trash a good man?
Is there something wrong with being a weekend warrior?
Doug
Is there something wrong with being a weekend warrior?
Dougno sir......
Lone Wolf
08-23-2005, 19:38
Larry, ease up. I've been around gizmo. He's overbearing. A little too serious. You're a weekend warrior too. Enough said.
Ummm, uuhhhh, a uh, friend told me that. Yeah, that's what it was. That's my story and i'm sticking to it! :D :D
hahahaha, yeah good point, well then you've seen him from a different light lone wolf...however i don't know if you call living on the trail for three years a weekend warrior, but if that your take on me lone wolf, then i accept that.....
Lone Wolf
08-23-2005, 19:46
Living on the trail and thru-hiking and section hiking are 3 different things. Just cuz you know gizmo doesn't mean he can't be an A-hole at time. We all are.
Living on the trail and thru-hiking and section hiking are 3 different things. Just cuz you know gizmo doesn't mean he can't be an A-hole at time. We all are.very true statement, i got my bad points too....i know one thing he doesn't seem to be lacking in nerve when he sets out to correct a situation like the one i was involved with him in south of deleware water gap at the shelter near the church building there.....
justusryans
08-23-2005, 20:10
Just cuz you know gizmo doesn't mean he can't be an A-hole at time. We all are.
Very true,
JoeHiker
08-25-2005, 12:07
well my friend, this ridgerunner that you are talking about works for none other than the ATC in conjunction with the Smoky Mtn Natuional Park....so i would suggest that you need to do your homework before you come on here with your off the wall statements about someone you nothing about....the man is just doing his job!
A factual question from a somewhat disinterested observer who does not know any of the parties involved:
I think the statement you are questioning here is the contention that "he has no authority", right? Well how does working for the ATC give him any authority? Working "in conjunction with Smoky Mtn National Park" doesn't make the man a ranger. Is there some sort of deputizing process?
well my friend, this ridgerunner that you are talking about works for none other than the ATC in conjunction with the Smoky Mtn Natuional Park....so i would suggest that you need to do your homework before you come on here with your off the wall statements about someone you nothing about....the man is just doing his job! and you are not going to convince many of us who know him that he some off the wall jerk! he has been doing this job for some time now, so i am comfortable in knowing that he must be doing a very good job at it...you however seem to need an attitude experience that will help you see things in a different light...are you a hiker thru and thru or are some weekend warrior that wants to come on here and trash a good man?
only wanderer, your hiking prowess doubtless far surpasses my own. i imagine you've walked around on the a.t. and slept on the ground. that's really something ... wait a minute, i've done that too. ok, you've done other stuff that i haven't done. skinned a squirrel and eaten it, something like that. let's settle this the manly way. let's meet at high noon on mcafee knob. your choice of weapons. trekking poles or 3-liter platypuses?
silvereagle
08-25-2005, 14:00
Hey.......I don't know what happened as to the specifics to this thread, but I just want it to be known that Gizmo helped a friend of mine some time back that was injured on the trail and I myself have met him many times and he seemed pleasant enough to me. Wait till you run in to one of those "boar hunters"......now there's a story there I could tell ya.
only wanderer, your hiking prowess doubtless far surpasses my own. i imagine you've walked around on the a.t. and slept on the ground. that's really something ... wait a minute, i've done that too. ok, you've done other stuff that i haven't done. skinned a squirrel and eaten it, something like that. let's settle this the manly way. let's meet at high noon on mcafee knob. your choice of weapons. trekking poles or 3-liter platypuses?hahahaha, ah i'll go for the 3-liter platypuses, i don't want to leave any marks...dang if i'm gonna meet you there?....weel, i'll be darned, i've wimped out...oh well, you win....
he has been doing this job for some time now, so i am comfortable in knowing that he must be
doing a very good job at it..
Huh? Since when is having a job for long time evidence of competence?
Huh? Since when is having a job for long time evidence of competence?You kind of have to put the job in context. This isn't a state government or United Autoworkers Job. It's an annual summer thing. If he gets called back for the summer several summers in a row, the idea is that he is doing the job right. If he wasn't doing a good job, they just wouldn't take him on the next summer.
My 2 cents only. Maybe the guy sucks but his uncle own the Smoky Mtns or something.
A factual question from a somewhat disinterested observer who does not know any of the parties involved:
I think the statement you are questioning here is the contention that "he has no authority", right? Well how does working for the ATC give him any authority? Working "in conjunction with Smoky Mtn National Park" doesn't make the man a ranger. Is there some sort of deputizing process?i'm sure that gizmo wouldn't be checking permits if he were not instructed to do so....
halibut15
08-26-2005, 07:49
Come on people, what's the big deal anyway? If you have a permit and the guy's a ridgerunner, why not show it to him and have you both go your separate ways? What harm does it really do? We all know how crowded the Smokies are, so permits can be a pretty big thing there sometimes. Maybe this guy's "rudeness" came from certain people outright refusing to show them their permit when they were asked to do so. I know that just might being out some rudeness in anybody...
Freighttrain
08-26-2005, 07:56
the trail could use a few more GIZMO's
TrailSweeper
08-26-2005, 08:07
With reductions of staffing , more responsibility falls on those resources that are at hand. The ridgerunner was probably doing what was asked of him. I would show anyone who asked to see my permit. It has been awhile since I was in the Smokies, but I believe the permits used to say that they were to be displayed on the outside of the pack, and were a tag that tied on to the pack, is this still the way they do it?
anybody been hiking on the a.t. in the smokies lately? watch out for ridgerunner glen. he's doing his best to annoy and offend every hiker he meets, ........etc,etc,etc,........... i'm thinking about complaining to the hiking club about this guy. he's giving ridgerunners a bad name.mingo
Although its EZ to criticize without knowing all the facts...& judging someone on "hear-say" & 2nd hand (& sometimes 3rd hand) information.
I found Glen (aka "Gizmo") (http://www.trailjournals.com/photos.cfm?id=7850) to be one of the nicest, friendliest, guys I met on my first section hike (along with "TeePee") in 2002.
YOu are correct....NO ROOM for rude behavior from a ridgerunner....Maybe Glen/"Gizmo" was just having a bad day.
No NEED to bash the man here.
well, i guess in the big scheme of things it's not a big deal. but i don't know, i was just walking along, minding my own business, listening to the birds chirp and this ridgerunner comes along and demands (rudely i thought) to see my permit. i go hiking for peace and quiet, and here i was getting hassled by the man. if i had been willing to show him my permit, i would have been forced to stop, pull off my pack and dig around in it to find my permit. and for what purpose? if i didn't have a permit, the ridgerunner couldn't give me a ticket. he has no enforcement power. my opinon here is based not just on my own experience. on two different trips, i have heard from -- let's see -- four different hikers that he was impolite to them. i like the smokies. i go there a lot. i would prefer not to have to deal with a rude ridgerunner while i'm there. i was hoping that by discussing this in the forum, ridgerunner glen would see the error of his ways (because i figured he looked at whiteblaze occasionally). he needs to realize that he's not a cop. and i'm sure he can be a very nice fella.
Lone Wolf
08-26-2005, 09:17
The Smoky's, SNP and Baxter Park. Loaded with rules and regs. I don't care if I ever hike in those places again.
The Old Fhart
08-26-2005, 10:07
Geez, the first time I went thru the Smokies in 1987 I was just walking along, minding my own business and I was asked to show my permit. It was expected because I read the rules and knew that was a possibility. No big deal because I had it displayed on the outside of my pack, as the rules require. I had a very nice chat with the "ranger." Probably if I'd given the ranger some attitude I would have had a bad experience like Mingo.
Maybe if all hikers had something like the "EZ Pass" transponders used at the tolls we wouldn't have to have these annoying interactions with other human beings. :)
you're not required to wear your permit outside your pack in the smokies.
i wouldn't object to a ranger checking my permit. that's not a problem. i object to someone asking for my permit who thinks he's a cop who actually isn't. it's really the same as another hiker walking up to you and demanding to see your permit. would that bother you, old phart?
Nothing wrong with discussing a program and a person who is being paid (albeit not much) by the ATC/PATC Etc, especially when it comes to the performance of his official duties.
Personally, I don't think Ridge Runners should be checking permits. I think that's a job better left to a Ranger.
Judging for Gizmo's ATC presention comments regarding drinking, a service providor, and minor children, I have got to think that there may times when his zeal gets the better of him.
Rick B
The Old Fhart
08-26-2005, 11:20
Mingo-"you're not required to wear your permit outside your pack in the smokies."Sorry you have trouble reading what I actually wrote so let me repeat this one more time. "I went thru the Smokies in 1987......was asked to show my permit. It was expected ...because I had it displayed on the outside of my pack, as the rules require." The brochure I have called "Great Smokey Mountains Trail Guide" (GPO 1986 491-417/40083) says: "The permit itself should be attached in plain view to clothing or gear so that it can be easily checked by backcountry rangers." I followed the rules in place at the time I first went thru as I stated and had no problems. But then, I actually read the rules. If you're not careful reading, it would be very easy to read something that wasn't there like "old phart", who I don't know, instead of Old Fhart".
As to your
"i object to someone asking for my permit who thinks he's a cop who actually isn't. it's really the same as another hiker walking up to you and demanding to see your permit. would that bother you, old phart?It is NOT the same thing as another hiker asking (you interpret, demanding) to see your permit. Every day there is someone who isn't a "cop" asking to see some proof; visit a school, you need a visitor pass, go to a Stone's concert, you need a ticket, go on a plane, you will have an assigned seat; and there may be any number of people checking, some volunteers, none cops.
Sorry that someone who was doing their assigned job, who wasn't a cop, disturbed your hike. Just seeing how you misinterpreted and distorted my post, I'd be inclinded to say that this is part of your personality.
Alligator
08-26-2005, 11:32
Wow, maybe an interested party could call a ranger in the Smokies to determine whether the ridgerunners are supposed to check permits. That would clarify this entire discussion. How about Mingo, who seems to have the most invested in this?
no reason to get all exercised there, old fhart. sorry i mispelled your name, and i'm real happy you read the regulations and didn't mind when a ranger asked for your permit. that's great, buddy
Wow, maybe an interested party could call a ranger in the Smokies to determine whether the ridgerunners are supposed to check permits. That would clarify this entire discussion. How about Mingo, who seems to have the most invested in this?
According to the ATC web site, ridgerunner duties are:
providing general support to hikers and campers, including directions and other information
educating hikers on the importance of minimizing their impact on the trails and surrounding resources
inspecting the AT and trail-related facilities and reporting their condition
performing light maintenance on the trails
i don't see anything here about checking permits or enforcing regulations of any kind
Jack Tarlin
08-26-2005, 15:16
As I mentioned about fifty posts ago, different ridgerunners have different responsibilities and duties in different areas. Not all of these duties are necessarily listed in on the ATC's website.
The Rangers in GSMNP are short-funded and short-staffed. It could very well be that the ridge-runners there have been directed by their supervisors (i.e. Park officials) to take on duties normally performed by Rangers, Park Police, or other personnel. One of these duties may be checking hikers for permits.
It could also be true that in this particular case, an over-zealous ridgerunner is doing this on his own.
In short, we don't know. Interested parties who really care about this should contact either the ATC, or better yet, the folks who run Great Smoky Mountain National Park, in order to learn the actual details about what the Park ridgerunner's duties actually are, and whether they are being exceeded.
Anything else is idle speculation. This guy might be over-stepping his bounds and responsibilities. Or he might be doing EXACTLY what he's supposed to be doing as directed by his superiors and employer. Fact is, nobody here seems to know, so perhaps we should tone down some of the anger and rhetoric here until we DO know.
Which is kinda what I suggested around fifty posts ago.
TrailSweeper
08-26-2005, 15:30
To clear up a question I had earlier, Federal code states:
Backcountry Camping:
Permit: A backcountry permit is required for all overnight
stays in the backcountry. The permit must be in the
camper's possession while in the backcountry and must be
exhibited upon the demand of an authorized person.
This guy might be over-stepping his bounds and responsibilities. Or he might be doing EXACTLY what he's supposed to be doing as directed by his superiors and employer. Fact is, nobody here seems to know, so perhaps we should tone down some of the anger and rhetoric here until we DO know. Which is kinda what I suggested around fifty posts ago.
so what if you said something fifty posts ago? doesn't make it right. i don't believe it's possible for a ranger to delegate law-enforcement duties to someone who doesn't even work for the park service. that would be like a cop telling a highway dept maintenance man that it's ok for him to hand out speeding tickets. that's silly.
Alligator
08-26-2005, 16:02
Same thing I'm suggesting Jack. Mingo, here's the phone number 865-436-1200. Give them a call. The internet is great, but going to the source is much more helpful. Let us know how it turns out.
Scrunchy
08-26-2005, 16:24
so what if you said something fifty posts ago? doesn't make it right. i don't believe it's possible for a ranger to delegate law-enforcement duties to someone who doesn't even work for the park service. that would be like a cop telling a highway dept maintenance man that it's ok for him to hand out speeding tickets. that's silly.
Backcountry Camping:
Permit: A backcountry permit is required for all overnight
stays in the backcountry. The permit must be in the
camper's possession while in the backcountry and must be
exhibited upon the demand of an authorized person.
you got me there, scrunchy
You know, in the time that it took each of you to think about and post to this thread, you could have written your Congressman and two US Senators and requested increased funding for our National Parks. Simply put - they are under siege, and the NPS doesn't have the staff to protect places like Great Smoky Mountains NP. Please join me, and write three letters today. It can really make a difference!
Here's a link to find the email address for your Congressman;
http://www.house.gov/writerep/
Here's a link to fund out the email address for your two US Senators:
http://www.senate.gov/
FYI, since the Anthrax scare, it is much better to send electronic correspondence to your elected officials. Snail mail takes weeks to be delivered - if at all.
Still not convinced? Read this;
Top Official Urged Change in How Parks Are Managed
By FELICITY BARRINGER
WASHINGTON, Aug. 25 - A high-ranking appointee at the Interior Department proposed fundamentally changing the way national parks are managed, putting more emphasis on recreational use and loosening protections against overuse, noise and damage to the air, water, wildlife or scenery. But a group of senior National Park Service employees rejected the proposal at a meeting this month.
The 194 pages of revisions to the park service's basic policy document suggested by Paul Hoffman, a deputy assistant secretary of the department, could have opened up new opportunities for off-road use of snowmobiles and all-terrain vehicles throughout the park system, including Yellowstone National Park, whose roads the Interior Department has kept open to snowmobiles.
Mr. Hoffman's proposals often involved seemingly minor word changes but their effect was nonetheless sweeping. Illegal uses, Mr. Hoffman proposed, must "irreversibly" harm park resources, instead of just harming them. Instead of obligating managers to eliminate impairments to park resources, he proposed that they should "adequately mitigate or eliminate" the problems.
The draft was part of an effort to re-evaluate the park service's core mission and illustrated the continuing tension between the need to preserve park resources and the desire to make them available to the broadest possible public.
The draft would also have added potential hurdles to the procedures for designating new parks. And in its discussion of park service system resources and educational programs, it would have eliminated virtually every reference to the theory of evolution.
The Park Service's ability to influence events outside park borders would have been curtailed under the draft. For instance, it would have been more difficult for park officials to call for the Environmental Protection Agency's aid in reducing haze and air pollution in parks.
David Barna, a spokesman for the park service, said Thursday that 16 senior employees of the service met in Santa Fe, N.M., on Aug. 8 to discuss the suggested changes and decided to scrap them in favor of a more modest rewrite. "We did not take his document and try to rewrite it," Mr. Barna said. He added, "We're looking at how we've doing business in the 21st century," with an emphasis on public participation and efficient management.
Mr. Hoffman, a former executive director of a local Chamber of Commerce in Wyoming and an aide to Vice President Dick Cheney when Mr. Cheney was a congressman in the 1980's, was appointed to his current post in 2002. The Park Service's director, Fran Mainella, also a political appointee, ranks below Mr. Hoffman in the Interior Department.
The draft, which had been closely held until this week, was given to The New York Times by park advocates who opposed the proposed changes.
Asked how park employees junior to Mr. Hoffman could summarily reject his proposals, Mr. Barna said that Mr. Hoffman "has been very comfortable with us saying, 'Well, not so fast.' " He added, "Our view of that was he was playing devil's advocate: Gee, Park Service, tell us why you shouldn't do this."
Tina Kreisher, a spokeswoman for the Interior Department, referred calls about the issue to Mr. Barna.
Bill Wade, a former superintendent of Shenandoah National Park who now directs the executive council of the Coalition of National Park Service Retirees, said that prohibiting only damage considered "irreversible" meant that taking it "to its extreme, I suppose you could do anything to a wildlife population as long as you preserved the last breeding pair."
The issue of motorized recreation in parks has been an area of sharp controversy in recent years, crystallized in the dispute over continuing snowmobile use in Yellowstone after the Clinton administration's decision to phase it out.
The draft said "the variety of motorized equipment and mechanized modes of travel are diverse, and improved technology has increased the frequency of their use and makes their use more feasible in larger areas of the parks." It noted that some uses of these vehicles "may cause impairment of resources or values."
A sentence in the existing policy saying "the Service will strive to preserve or restore the natural quiet and natural sounds associated with" the physical and biological resources of the parks was eliminated in the proposal, as was mention of natural sounds like "waves breaking on the shore, the roar of a river or the call of a loon."
The Old Fhart
08-26-2005, 16:44
Mingo, your last post isn’t quite correct. The duties you list as attributed to the "ATC web site" are actually from the PATC website (http://www.patc.net/volunteer/trailpatrol/Outreach/RRIndex.htm)-there is a big difference. Here is what the ATC website (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.836459/k.8AEA/Seasonal_Jobs.htm) says:
ATC ridgerunners and caretakers hike sections of the A.T., meet and greet hikers, provide Trail brochures and literature to inform visitors about the A.T. and its intended primitive experience, its location, regulations, and traditions. They take steps to encourage the best behavior on the part of hikers, to facilitate a positive Trail experience (particularly for those who are poorly prepared), and to elicit the support of Trail neighbors and those who live nearby, but who may not understand or use the Trail properly. Ridgerunners and caretakers, by their presence, discourage and mitigate misuse of the Appalachian Trail and its environs by performing educational and public relations functions.or at another ATC link (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/LMPG_web.pdf):
The primary mission of the ridgerunners (mobile) and caretakers (stationary at campsites and shelters) is to educate hikers, to help them practice Leave-No-Trace minimum-impact camping techniques and understand and adhere to local regulations; and to ensure that problems are solved before they become critical. They enhance the experience of novice hikers, while reducing the potential for problems.
“Ridgerunners” spend most of their time out on the Trail doing a variety of tasks, the most important of which is providing hiker information. Ridgerunners provide the club with a “presence” on their Trail section, helping to heighten hiker awareness of local programs and policies and acting as a deterrent to vandalism and resource abuse.. If some of the duties of the ridgerunner are to make sure that hikers “adhere to local regulations” and “to heighten hiker awareness of local programs and policies”, I don’t see how asking to see a permit is inconsistent with that goal.
I didn’t see any official presence in the Smokies on my thru in 1998, but when I hiked thru in 2000 I met someone in an official looking uniform at Fontana Dam who had a 2000 miler patch on his sleeve and it turned out he was an ATC ridgerunner. I talked to him and found I remembered his from Tom Leonard shelter in MA from 1998. He was a SOBO from 1998 named “Many Sleeps.” I don’t remember if he asked to see my permit or not. I would assume that the ridgerunners are on the A.T. with the full knowledge and approval of the govt. so their asking to see a permit would be a perfectly logical and reasonable request.
Also anyone who has ever had a job that had a description knows that the last line of the description says: "And whatever other duties may be assigned". Any write-up that is only 4 lines obviously leave out a lot of the details.
Same thing I'm suggesting Jack. Mingo, here's the phone number 865-436-1200. Give them a call. The internet is great, but going to the source is much more helpful. Let us know how it turns out.
Immaterial.
Even if someone told the Ridge Runner he could ask, that wouldn't make it right.
The ridge runner program should be an educational one. To my way of thinking there is a very big difference between a ridge runner telling a hiker that a permit is require, vs. asking one to stop and produce his papers.
leeki pole
08-26-2005, 16:54
This sounds like a dialogue from the movie Stripes:
Mingo: "You ask me for my permit...I'll kill ya."
Sarge: "Lighten up, Mingo." :bse
indeed, i just phoned the park service and the guy said, no, ridgerunners have no authority to check permits and cannot write tickets.
he said that at a shelter, ridgerunners do sometimes inquire as to whether somebody has a reservation, and they encourage hikers without permits to go elsewhere. that's perfectly reasonable and i've seen ridgerunners do this before. especially when thru-hikers are going through, the ridgerunners help prevent conflicts with section hikers, etc.
but when asked whether ridgerunners should stop people on the trail and ask to see their permit, this guy on the phone said no, that wouldn't be a good idea.
re many sleeps, i met him a coupla times. great guy. very nice.
Alligator
08-26-2005, 17:08
Immaterial.
Even if someone told the Ridge Runner he could ask, that wouldn't make it right.
The ridge runner program should be an educational one. To my way of thinking there is a very big difference between a ridge runner telling a hiker that a permit is require, vs. asking one to stop and produce his papers.
The question at hand is whether this specific ridge runner was performing his job correctly. Was he supposed to ask for the permit? If the RR was told to do this, then bitch about the system. If not, complain about the RR. The topic of the thread was Barney Fife. It was not should RR's be entrusted with the authority to check people's permits.
Scrunchy
08-26-2005, 17:11
you got me there, scrunchy Sorry...:D I was wondering myself after reading all the discussion and came across the Park regs at this site http://data2.itc.nps.gov/parks/grsm/ppdocuments/2005-compendium.pdf
Alligator
08-26-2005, 17:23
Thanks for checking that out Mingo. Now you know where to tell him to take it next time.
Lone Wolf
08-26-2005, 18:18
Section hikers and others should ALWAYS have priority over thru-hikers for shelter space.
Photowatcher7
08-26-2005, 19:13
Thanks for checking that out Mingo. Now you know where to tell him to take it next time.
Mingo...Ridgerunners have been supporting the permit system by asking to check permits and this is generally done in shelters...but occasionally on the trail. This is done with education in mind...specifically to help hikers understand the importance of obtaining a permit and more importantly having their reservations in place for the shelters. Generally, hikers have things in place but not always. It is important to note that the Smokies are visited by a variety of people and many are raw novices. I've been thanked many times for helping hikers by correcting permits that are incorrect or need to have adjustments made to their schedule. The lack of a permit in the Smokies can bring a fine from law enforcement and we attempt to inform hikers of those facts if they have no permits. Law enforcement has been increasing their presence in the backcountry over the past few years. Hopefully the imput is done in a pleasent way and received as a benefit by the hiker. I realize that experienced hikers have less need for the educational component but its not always easy to tell the difference so I've tried to be fair_The Smokies are an experience unlike any other as a Ridgerunner. We carry out what can equal hundreds of pounds of trash and occcasionally deal with situations that are challenging. The hiker community is an excellent group of folks and I've made life long connections over the past 31 yrs. as a long distance and repeat thru-hiker. I never understood the complex character of the management needs of the trial until my experience as a Ridgerunner ...its an eye opening educational experience that I would recommend to any one who is interested. I work in Ga. from Feb. to June before heading to the Smokies so my association with thru hikers in the Smokies is infrequent but its good to have what contact when possible. Its important to note that we thru or long distance hikers are one of the smallest % of folks using the trail< With Regards, Glenn
justusryans
08-26-2005, 19:21
Section hikers and others should ALWAYS have priority over thru-hikers for shelter space.
Thru-hikers should be prepared to sleep in a tarp, tent, hammock, bivy or whatever. It should be part of every thru's equiptment.
I don't have a problem with Barney checking permits (it's supposed to be displayed anyway), I have a problem with him giving someone grief for eating in a shelter, especially in the rain.
Until they have a covered eating area outside the shelter, there's no way I'd not eat or eat in the rain. As far as I'm concerned, he can go... :eek:
hey thanks glen for that gentlemanly posting. i'm sure you've done lots of good things up there in the smokies. thanks for all your efforts. i guess all i'm saying is that we all need to be courteous and respectful of each other in our dealings. i apologize because i've been rude my own self in my postings on this forum.
Alligator
08-26-2005, 21:05
Photowatcher7 are you the RR in question? If so, are you, or are you not asked by the park service to request permits of people when they are on the trail? Mingo has indicated that RR's do not have this authority through his conversation with the Park Service. Has that authority been granted to you?
bearbait2k4
08-26-2005, 21:47
So, this entire thread is pretty much based on hearsay?
Just checking.
As far as eating at a shelter, who knows in what way they were eating? The first year I hiked through the Smokies, I earned my trail name with the help of another couple who had been cooking and eating inside the shelter area, during one of the worst storms that the area had seen in years. Sure, everyone else was eating inside, because of the stormy weather, but this couple was being careless and had cooked their meals on the top bunk space, which ended up boiling over and spilling all over my sleeping bag - and myself. They did this twice. So, if I were this ridgerunner and I saw something such as that happening, you better believe I would give them grief about it.
The thing is that we really don't know EXACTLY what transpired here.
And, if this is the ridge runner in question, I do believe he explained the reason behind checking for permits. It seems to me as if it is done to check reservation dates, times, and any other information that needs to be correct for if and/or when an actual ranger checks it out for you. Basically - as a favor to people.
It sounds as if the ridgerunner here is doing pretty much what every ridgerunner along the trail is, except that most of the trail does not require one to have a permit.
A N D
"jesus, frosty, what is this? a court of law? i wasn't taking notes during our brief encounter. i thought he was rude. other hikers told me they thought he was rude to them too. i made another trip to the smokies earlier this year and hikers told me then that he was rude to them. that's the extent of my knowledge about ridgerunner glen. any more questions, counselor? and my permit was actually all made out properly and i even had a damn reservation confirmation number."
Come on - what you are doing is close to slander, especially if it comes down to other people complaining about this character, based on your post (which YES, people are stupid enough to do). So, ya, maybe you should be taking some notes before you attempt to publicly vilify a person for their actions - - to which their actions toward you should be the only thing that counts. Go ahead and file a complaint with the "facts" you have presented and see how far it goes.
no, bearbait, what i've done here is a damn public service. as a result of this thread, ridgerunner glenn now realizes that, whether intentional or not, he has offended some hikers and i'm sure that he takes his responsibilities seriously and will alter his behavior accordingly so that harmony will now return to the trail in the smokies and all is well. the birds are chirping happily again and the chipmunks are dancing about in the rocks, etc. etc. you have me, mingo, to thank for it all.
Sure, everyone else was eating inside, because of the stormy weather, but this couple was being careless and had cooked their meals on the top bunk space, which ended up boiling over and spilling all over my sleeping bag - and myself.
Nice deflection. We weren't talking about idiots with stoves, we were, atleast I was, talking about eating in a shelter.
i wouldn't object to a ranger checking my permit. that's not a problem. i object to someone asking for my permit who thinks he's a cop who actually isn't. it's really the same as another hiker walking up to you and demanding to see your permit. would that bother you, old phart?man mingo, you are still bashing the guy aren't you? gizmo does not think he is a cop, he knows his place....i would bet you have a hang up with those who go by rules, and who do their job and are good at it....let it go, why can't you do that?
hey thanks glen for that gentlemanly posting. i'm sure you've done lots of good things up there in the smokies. thanks for all your efforts. i guess all i'm saying is that we all need to be courteous and respectful of each other in our dealings. i apologize because i've been rude my own self in my postings on this forum.well said mingo!
bearbait2k4
08-27-2005, 00:06
Nice deflection. We weren't talking about idiots with stoves, we were, atleast I was, talking about eating in a shelter.
My point was that nobody here, with the exception of the ridgerunner, actually witnessed the people who were eating in the shelter area, so nobody here, WITH THE EXCEPTION of the ridgerunner, can really say it was ridiculous or crazy for this ridgerunner to be concerned about these people eating in the shelter.
This particular situation is complete hearsay, and anything could be determined from that.
Photowatcher7
08-27-2005, 00:53
Mingo...All A.T. Shelters are posted with a large N.P.S. sign that reads, DO Not Cook Or Eat IN THIS SHELTER. FOOD ODORS ATTRACT BEARS. Bears have an amazing ability to smell. They have a specialized organ called the Jacobsons Organ which super charges their smell ability. They are reported to be able to smell 7 times better than a Blood Hound. Blood Hounds are reported to be able to smell p-nut butter sealed in a jar ...underwater. The practice of eating in shelters sets up the process of a potential for Bear habituation. Bears are very smart and are able to associate food with its source. In the case of the backcountry, preventing a Bear from associating food with humans is of the upmost importance. We want to prevent human injury or death... generally a serious problem bear may have to be put down if no other option seems to work...we try to aviod that. We had a person killed and eaten by a Bear in 2000. This did not take place on the A.T. but was the first reported Bear death in park history. A Bear is now around the shelter where the father and son were asked not to eat in the shelter. The situation was caused by eating in the shelter, food related trash in the firepit and place, and abandoned trash in the area. I've had to deal with this bear personally and it appears that it may be habituated. We may have as many as 2000 bears in the park...that is an average of two per square mile.
The father and son were good folks... who asked if it was safe to head N. and on to their destination. I had just traveled over the Mtn. that they would have to cross to make it to their destination shelter so I was able to offer information on the conditions. I remember them because the son had hiked all the way from Springer on his first long hike at age 13. We talked about the Dad's wife and her giving the father an opportunity to experience a long hike on the trail...so he headed out with his son, pretty cool in this day and age of kids being uninterested in exercise. I let them know that if they needed to stay in the shelter...it was certainly appropriate for safety if they wanted. They were traveling on a Thru-Hikers permit. They choose to proceed to their destination after my report. Our interaction was both professional and pleasant.
I spent 15 years as a resident of Washington State...professional bicycle tour leader, long distance cyclist, long distance hiker, mixed rock and glacier climber, ocean kyaker and training with the National Outdoor Leadership School. I grew use to the ethics and skills, honor and honesty necessary to live in the backcountry...with gizzly,cougar, and aggressive black bear. Permits were part of the scene and we paid for them. The G.S.M.N.P. is user friendly and permits are free. There are two summer Ridgerunners in the Smokies...we both check permits and reservations as an educational tool. We have both been thanked for our efforts...some were glad to have the permit actually have a validated value. The backcountry supervisor is aware of our checks and they have been a benefit. I've delt with the uncomfortable reality that comes with individuals blowing off the permit process...tension at shelters and sometimes its tuff to get everyone in to a safe dry and low impact setting.
I don't believe we have ever met...feel free to check in if you see me. With Regards, Glenn
Gizmo, nice to hear from you. Thanks for all that you do. I hope our paths cross again soon.
Jeffrey Hunter
glen, let me respectfully dispute a few of your points. the father-and-son team didn't feel that you behaved in a professional manner. niether did i when i did meet you on the trail. neither did other hikers that i have met who met you. the other ridgerunner doesn't check permits. or at least he didn't when i spent the night at peck's with him. other ridgerunners that i have met in past summers did not check permits. i do not believe the hiking club knows that you are approaching people on the trail and demanding to see their permit. people eat in those shelters all the time. there are in fact benches specifically designed for eating on the front of many of those shelters. if that caused bear problems, there wouldn't be any bears left in the smokies. they would have all been shot by now. you need to chill.
The Old Fhart
08-27-2005, 09:47
Mingo, you need to chill. Unless you derive pleasure from beating a dead horse, the questions have been asked and answered. Why do you feel that you have to prolong this thread? Your attitude only makes you look like a person who would start an arguement with anyone (including a ridgerunner) for no reason at all. Give it a rest.
old fhart, don't read this thread if it doesn't interest you.
Photowatcher7
08-27-2005, 10:20
Mingo...The shelter in question has no eating area. The rehabed shelters have a cooking bench....that seperates the cook area from the the bunk area. This provides a layer of separation from the place where people sleep and hang out. You do not want a bear to invade the bunk area of a shelter. The cable systems have provided a layer of safety for the hiker but its important for hikers to participate in the process and understand the areas that they need to help with their own safety. If you look closely at the cable system you will generally see a path leading out to the woods...this most probably is a critter trail and animals check out the hiker's food stash but can't easily reach it. The bears know your food is there on the cable...they can smell it. The cable is placed at adistance from the shelter to keep the bear from close proximity of the shelter.
The shelter design has been modified to include an eating area ...on the side of the shelter when the lay of the land makes it possible. Look for future shelters to have the adjusted design. The shelter that has the bear in the area is scheduled for re-hab this fall .... I believe that it will have a side eating area that will increase safety by keeping scent out of the bunk area...probably similar to Mollies Ridge Shelter. The design with the front eating area probably isn't the safest option. When a shelter is signed for bear activity...I do not use the front bench but eat at a distance fron the shelter. Black bear to human contacts are on the increase nationally as their numbers increase and they lose habitat so I've learned to go the extra mile to be safe.
I've received many instances of positive feedback and thanks on the education that comes from understanding the reasons that hikers are asked to follow certain guidelines. I'm a educator who understands that safety is the most important element for one to become an advanced user of the backcountry. I write a standard weekly report that is submitted to the club and park service...this includes information on the number of hikers with permits,reservations,no reservations,thru-hikers...etc. These are used to help design and manage systems for the backcountry. The job of Ridgerunner can be an exhausting experience...I once spent 5 weeks on trail crew ---200 hours donated, I felt I was on vacation in comparision with the complexities of Ridgerunning. May your travels on the A.T. be a fulfilling experience...the A.T. for me was the catalyst for building a greater skill base and I've never regreted the time and energy that I've put back into the trail in various capacities over the past years. With Regards, Glenn
The Old Fhart
08-27-2005, 10:52
Mingo-"old fhart, don't read this thread if it doesn't interest you."The thread interests me, especially the thoughtful post from Photowatcher7. What doesn't interest me is your incessant whining.
papa john
08-27-2005, 10:53
Glenn,
Gonna be in the Smokies 9/23 through 9/28, hope to see you out there. My understanding of the permits for groups is that only one permit is needed per group. But does each member of the group have to carry a copy of the permit? We are going in a group of four and most likely will not hike the same pace during the day and will meet up at our scheduled destination each evening.
Thanks for your good work out there. I am sure is can be frustrating coming into a camp area time after time and seeing trash, litter and destruction. I know it would get to me.
papa john
08-27-2005, 10:54
To The Old Fhart,
Do like I do and put him on your ignore list. Keeps the blood pressure way down.
The Old Fhart
08-27-2005, 10:57
Thanks for the smile, Papa John. Actually my pressure is pretty low. Hiking and not forcing confrontations with ridgerunners helps keep it that way! :D
Photowatcher7
08-27-2005, 11:11
Group prmits are issued as one permit and can be used for up to 8 people. The permit will include a space for additional info and a reservation number. It is important to go ahead and make reservations as soon as your able...the Smokies tends to get busier as the fall season approaches. You can call 865-436-1231 which is the backcountry reservation office. They are great folks and will do their best to help you with trip planning ...if you would like. If your in the park between the hours of 8am to 6pm stop by the office in person(its located in the Sugarlands Visitor Center Building). They have a collection of materials to make your backcountry trip easier...including information on loop hikes. Spence Field Shelter will be closed at some point this late summer or early fall for the Re-hab...so check with the backcountry office for info. on that situation if your planning to stay there. Have a good hike...you sound like your interested in the backcountry and stewardship....Glenn
Photowatcher7
08-27-2005, 11:54
Papa John...A group doesn't need to travel at the same pace to use one permit. I've met many groups who have a designated permit handler...if asked about the permit then the group menmbers can refer any questions to the designated permit handler for clairification. Glenn
Alligator
08-27-2005, 13:17
...
The G.S.M.N.P. is user friendly and permits are free. There are two summer Ridgerunners in the Smokies...we both check permits and reservations as an educational tool. We have both been thanked for our efforts...some were glad to have the permit actually have a validated value. The backcountry supervisor is aware of our checks and they have been a benefit. I've delt with the uncomfortable reality that comes with individuals blowing off the permit process...tension at shelters and sometimes its tuff to get everyone in to a safe dry and low impact setting.
I don't believe we have ever met...feel free to check in if you see me. With Regards, GlennThe above is a little vague and leaves out the location of these checks. I really don't feel like my questions were completely answered here. Are you, or are you not asked by the park service to request permits of people when they are on the trail? Has that authority been granted to you? You have said that you check permits. Where has the checking occurred, on the trail or at the shelters?
There are two ridgerunners, are you both named Glenn?
im i missing something here:dance just get a permit and hang it out:bse who cares if someone sees it ,its not like your showing them anything personal,Hey ridgerunner heres my permit :D ,hey hiker heres my permit :D ,hey park ranger oops i lost it:bse ky did happen twice going thrue the SNP Ranger questioned me twice took my I.D. and ran me thru the system ,then i asked him for a ride to the store a big meadows it was about to close :eek: ky
papa john
08-27-2005, 14:20
Thanks Glenn,
We do have our permits already. Good to know about the designated handler. This person will most likely be our faster hiker. Everyone will know the permit number.
Hi Glenn,
Once, last summer you came to the shelter I was staying at and you told me to remove my hammock since it was not permitted in the park. You did your job in a dignified and professional manner. I respected your authority and took down my hammock. You were very polite to everyone in the shelter and no one resented you when you asked to see our permits. Keep on doing the good job you have been doing as a ridgerunner and do not pay attentions to this dissenter who is enjoying causing you grief. There are more of us who like you than this troublemaker.
Take care and God bless,
Corsican
saimyoji
08-28-2005, 00:14
Curt: Please identify the troublemaker/ dissenter by name, address your issues with them. Its cowardly to make blanket statements against non-entities implying that you hold a higher ground than others.
I think what mingo has come around to do is admirable: feeling out exactly what are the rules and parameters of certain sections of the trail. He had a bad experience, addressed it here, and is learning the specifics of what made his experience what it was. Hopefully in the future he will use this knowledge and enjoy his hike more.
Shame on anyone for bashing people who seek knowledge, who challenge people to justify their actions, who stand up for themselves and say 'By what authority do you ...(insert appropriate action phrase).' Especially when, in the end, after having gathered the required knowledge and changed their behavior accordingly, these people, and all of us, are better for the exchange.
hey- let's plan a permit burning party on top of Thunderhead?????
This thread evidences that some folks have way too much free time on their hands.
glen, let me respectfully dispute a few of your points. the father-and-son team didn't feel that you behaved in a professional manner. niether did i when i did meet you on the trail. neither did other hikers that i have met who met you. the other ridgerunner doesn't check permits. or at least he didn't when i spent the night at peck's with him. other ridgerunners that i have met in past summers did not check permits. i do not believe the hiking club knows that you are approaching people on the trail and demanding to see their permit. people eat in those shelters all the time. there are in fact benches specifically designed for eating on the front of many of those shelters. if that caused bear problems, there wouldn't be any bears left in the smokies. they would have all been shot by now. you need to chill.
you go from one extreme to another don't you? you apologized to the man and then turn right around and slam him again....it is you my friend who has his chill pill out of whack....you must learn the "art of chilling" first before you can instruct others to do so....
justusryans
08-28-2005, 08:28
Can't we all just get along? :banana :banana :banana
i'm really baffled that i'm coming under so much criticism here. if you folks enjoy being hassled on the trail by a rude, renegade ridgerunner, then that's great. i was just trying to point out to glenn, as i have said before, that some people think he is abusing his position up there and, if he's really trying to educate hikers, then he might try a different attitude. (of course, i understand that others have had better experiences with glenn; i'm sure he's quite nice at times, maybe most of the time) anyway, this is my last post on this topic. as old fhart says, we're beating a dead horse. but you guys go ahead and bash me at will now if you wish.
we're getting together at the whiteblaze church today after services and tacking your name to the dartboard to see if we can hit the dot above the "i"
The Old Fhart
08-28-2005, 10:39
mingo-"as old fhart says, we're beating a dead horse."Now, now, don't put words into my mouth. What I actually said was: "Unless you derive pleasure from beating a dead horse" :)
I think what mingo has come around to do is admirable: feeling out exactly what are the rules and parameters of certain sections of the trail. He had a bad experience, addressed it here, and is learning the specifics of what made his experience what it was. Hopefully in the future he will use this knowledge and enjoy his hike more.
Shame on anyone for bashing people who seek knowledge, who challenge people to justify their actions, who stand up for themselves and say 'By what authority do you ...(insert appropriate action phrase).' Especially when, in the end, after having gathered the required knowledge and changed their behavior accordingly, these people, and all of us, are better for the exchange.Oh, please. Pointing something out and describing an experience is admirable. Trashing somneone who works on the trail is not. The very title he chose for this thread is demeaning.
He complains about rude behavior in the most insulting and rude way possible. He is aggressively and unrelentingly argumentative. I've seen so many people like that on the trail, just looking to cause someone trouble. All puffed up in self-importance. Don't you dare question anything I do.
I cannot see that anything has been done here except to attack a trailworker, and make him wonder why he bothers.
If you don't want to get a permit, don't. If you don't want to show it, don't. If you don't want to follow the rules and try to get along, stay out of the Smokies and other areas with heavy use and heavy rules.
All that has been done here is to make thruhikers look bad.
The Old Fhart
08-28-2005, 10:42
Hey, Frosty! :clap :clap :clap
saimyoji
08-28-2005, 11:28
Well, I haven't hiked in the smokies, but when I do I'll have my permit ready to show anyone who cares, and I'll have a big smile and a thank you for any RRs that want to see my permit.
I'll revise my original post here: Shame on anyone for bashing. As Frosty said, it only makes us look bad.
HikerHobo
08-28-2005, 11:28
All that has been done here is to make thruhikers look bad.
The only thing I've seen make thruhikers look bad, is a pack of WB bullies!
The ignore list makes this forum tolerable.
The only thing I've seen make thruhikers look bad, is a pack of WB bullies!
If that is truly the case, you evidently haven't spent much time on the trail.
Lone Wolf
08-28-2005, 13:03
A ranger is the only person I'll show a pass to. Had a ridge runner in PA ask me one time who I was and where I was going to and from. Told him it was none of his business. This was a year after the double murder outside of Duncannon. I pretty much ignore ridge runners.
Perhaps we need to get some ridge runners in the Whites.
They can begin by looking for Lone Wolf's stealth site near Lake of the Clouds.
:sun People who hate and disregard rules and authority have a low self-esteem. They hide their low self-esteem by acting like they are above the law, they have problem with authority everywhere they go. A well-balanced person does not mind a Rigderunner asking to see his/her permit. "Blessed are the humble in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom oh heaven." Matt. 5:3
Lone Wolf
08-28-2005, 13:39
Sure Curt. I won't need to go on Dr. Phil now. :rolleyes:
i'm really baffled that i'm coming under so much criticism here. if you folks enjoy being hassled on the trail ......blah,blah,blah,.........anyway, this is my last post on this topic. as old fhart says, we're beating a dead horse. but you guys go ahead and bash me at will now if you wish.
THANKS for.....STOPPING THE MADNESS! :D
well, i said i wouldn't post again to this thread but i just got a reply from the smoky mountain hiking club regarding ridgerunner glen. i stand corrected and feel obligated to share this email with you. apparently, the hiking club and the park service are aware that he's checking permits, are pleased with his efforts to educate hikers in the park, and are satisfied that he's dealing with hikers in a polite and professional manner.
The ridgerunners have the primary responsibility of enhancing the experience of backcountry users and educating them in LNT principles. Part of that task is to ensure that users of the shelters have been properly registered, thus avoiding overcrowding. I have personally witnessed Glenn on several occasions approaching backpackers, first introducing himself, politely asking about their itinerary and then asking to see their permit. On occasions when he has identified those without permits or those who are not able to keep their proper itinerary, I have seen him take great efforts to radio the park and attempt to work out a solution that allows the backpackers to continue their hike. Glenn and his radio have been responsible for several rescues and first aids efforts by park personnel for hikers in trouble. I have also witnessed Glenn doing an excellent job of teaching, mostly by example, not by police tactics, how to hike and camp using LNT principles. The ridgerunners also do a great amount of AT maintenance work.
The ridgerunners job description is dictated by the NPS, not our club. We help to recruit them and coordinate their work. Funding is by Friends of the Smokies.
I admit, Glen certainly is a unique person, but I have read accounts in shelter journals and had many personal accounts about how helpful he was to backpackers. I am surprised by your reaction. I don't deny that perhaps he could rub one the wrong way. Everyone can have a bad day. I just want you to know that this is not the norm for Glenn, as far as I know. I am copying your email to the folks who have primary responsibility for Glenn's performance so that they can correct me if I have been mistaken in anything I have told you here. Thank-you for your feedback.
<!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->Philip Royer, President SMHC
[email protected]
:sun People who hate and disregard rules and authority have a low self-esteem. They hide their low self-esteem by acting like they are above the law, they have problem with authority everywhere they go. A well-balanced person does not mind a Rigderunner asking to see his/her permit. "Blessed are the humble in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom oh heaven." Matt. 5:3
Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
justusryans
08-28-2005, 15:28
:sun People who hate and disregard rules and authority have a low self-esteem. They hide their low self-esteem by acting like they are above the law, they have problem with authority everywhere they go. A well-balanced person does not mind a Rigderunner asking to see his/her permit. "Blessed are the humble in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom oh heaven." Matt. 5:3
Yea, but what if you're not "well balanced"? How I respond is based on how I'm asked. Regardless of it's a ridgerunner, or Park Ranger or State Police. I treat people like they treat me. Makes for some exciting times.:jump
Mingo, I commend you for being a stand up guy. Proof enough is your post relating to the email you received from the president of SMHC. :)
mingo, that is the most honorable thing you have done, bravo.................brother
Buckingham
08-28-2005, 18:30
Am I missing something here?
It seems to me, with my limited mental ability, that the initial thread was based on a simple misunderstanding. Mingo vented, Glenn explained his actions, and Mingo accepted and relented. So why is this still an issue?
This thread has taken on a life of it's own, with no end in sight. In the short time I've been a member here, this is the most popular, longest lasting thread I have seen.
I come here to learn, and make friends. All the hate spewed on this particular thread puts a dismal face on the site as a whole. I implore you all, can we end this with my post here and now? Let's not bring shame to what I believe is a great place filled with mutual respect for all people.
Thank-You.
Jack Tarlin
08-28-2005, 18:49
Geez, you think THIS is bad? You should check out some of the political threads!
Or maybe not.
Don't let it get to you; things get a litle hot around here, and then everyone cools off and finds something better to do or something else to bitch about.
The best way to avoid getting bothered by a particular thread is to simply stop following it.....remarkable how comments cease to bother you if you stop reading 'em.
In the short time I've been a member here, this is the most popular, longest lasting thread I have seenI see you joined in June. Surely you haven't forgotten the pricey AMC hut thread last month?
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9373
or my all-time favorite long thread (supported thruhikes):
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4933
saimyoji
08-28-2005, 19:24
Dont forget the environmental terrorist thread :eek:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6588&page=1&pp=20&highlight=environmental+terrorists
Mingo... All A.T. Shelters are posted with a large N.P.S. sign that reads, DO Not Cook Or Eat IN THIS SHELTER. FOOD ODORS ATTRACT BEARS.
Well, they must be only a couple weeks old or not that LARGE. I never noticed a one, nor was I looking.
Lone Wolf
08-28-2005, 20:41
Just ignore ridgerunners. I do.
Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.Mingo, your previous post reveals you are a man of principles. Thank you for the Romans quote, it is very powerful. Please accept my apologies if my posts offended you. My apologies to the rest of you who were hurt by my posts.
Take care and God bless you,
Corsican
mingo, in a way i like your posts, sure got me fired up.....i look forward to more debates with you....you seem to be a man of honor....keep on working that to perfection....
Buckingham
08-30-2005, 01:49
Geez, you think THIS is bad? You should check out some of the political threads!
Or maybe not.
Don't let it get to you; things get a litle hot around here, and then everyone cools off and finds something better to do or something else to bitch about.
The best way to avoid getting bothered by a particular thread is to simply stop following it.....remarkable how comments cease to bother you if you stop reading 'em.You sir, are a wise man indeed.
Streamweaver
08-31-2005, 10:47
Bears have an amazing ability to smell. They have a specialized organ called the Jacobsons Organ which super charges their smell ability. They are reported to be able to
I dont know where you are getting your info from ,but a Jacobsons Organ is located in the mouths of snakes and lizards ,NOT bears!! Snakes and lizards pass their tongues across the Jacobsons Organ which then send the smell/tastes to their brain for identification.
Im with Mingo and Lone Wolf,If somebody dont have the authority to check permits then they shouldnt be checking them!! Too many cooks spoil the soup!! Streamweaver
According to the Smokies National Park website, the Spence field shelter is closed due to bear activity.
Also a few years ago, the fireplace at Mt. LeConte shelter was filled in with rock and mortar due to people throwing food trash in the fireplace, burning (or partially burning) food wrappers, etc. The trash attracted bears, mice, and other animals. They had signs posted warning people of the consequences but evidentally they didn't listen. It gets mighty cold on top of LeConte.
well, i said i wouldn't post again to this thread but i just got a reply from the smoky mountain hiking club regarding ridgerunner glen. i stand corrected and feel obligated to share this email with you. apparently, the hiking club and the park service are aware that he's checking permits, are pleased with his efforts to educate hikers in the park, and are satisfied that he's dealing with hikers in a polite and professional manner.
The ridgerunners have the primary responsibility of enhancing the experience of backcountry users and educating them in LNT principles. Part of that task is to ensure that users of the shelters have been properly registered, thus avoiding overcrowding. I have personally witnessed Glenn on several occasions approaching backpackers, first introducing himself, politely asking about their itinerary and then asking to see their permit. On occasions when he has identified those without permits or those who are not able to keep their proper itinerary, I have seen him take great efforts to radio the park and attempt to work out a solution that allows the backpackers to continue their hike. Glenn and his radio have been responsible for several rescues and first aids efforts by park personnel for hikers in trouble. I have also witnessed Glenn doing an excellent job of teaching, mostly by example, not by police tactics, how to hike and camp using LNT principles. The ridgerunners also do a great amount of AT maintenance work.
The ridgerunners job description is dictated by the NPS, not our club. We help to recruit them and coordinate their work. Funding is by Friends of the Smokies.
I admit, Glen certainly is a unique person, but I have read accounts in shelter journals and had many personal accounts about how helpful he was to backpackers. I am surprised by your reaction. I don't deny that perhaps he could rub one the wrong way. Everyone can have a bad day. I just want you to know that this is not the norm for Glenn, as far as I know. I am copying your email to the folks who have primary responsibility for Glenn's performance so that they can correct me if I have been mistaken in anything I have told you here. Thank-you for your feedback.
<!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->Philip Royer, President SMHC
[email protected]
Navigator
09-02-2005, 15:18
[QUOTE. a father and son who were hiking from springer to damascus told me that ridgerunner glen gave them all manner of grief for eating their lunch inside spence field shelter as hurricane dennis raged outside. QUOTE]
Did this incident happen to you? In later posts you say that Glen "Gizmo" asked to see your Permit. Did you have an out of body experience that allows you to be in multiple places at once.
Give it a Break.
I got bashed for opening a subject that was sensitive, and here you are and others, slamming and bad mouthing someone based on your own ignoranceand perception that you think (and I use the term loosely) happens all the time.
If you feel you can do a better job as a ridgerunner, then do it. Dn't just complain about it. Sit on the other side of the fence and see what you see.
And by the way, a ridgerunners job is not to pick up trash, clean outhouses, and do trail maintenance. Try it sometime, It;s a great way to give back to the trail.
Jester2000
09-02-2005, 20:41
I treat people like they treat me. Makes for some exciting times.:jump
See, what I do (and, admittedly, it makes for less exciting times), is I treat people the way I want to be treated.
So we've all vented our spleens, Gizmo posted in a manner hilarious for his unwillingness to name call or do anything other than state facts, Mingo stepped up and did the right thing, Lone Wolf told us about the people he ignores, and the only folks still interested in posting are latecomers like me and those who haven't read the entire thread.
Here's what I did, inspired by all of this nonsense about questioning who has the authority to do what. There's a construction area down the road I use to go to work, and every day there's a worker with a stop sign who forces me to stop. So I said, "who gave YOU the authority to make me stop? You think you're a cop or something?"
And then that construction worker beat the bejeezus out of me (and you'd be surprised how much bejeezus I had in me).
Then she went on her lunch break.
I think it's appropriate for a ridgerunner to ask if you HAVE a permit, as part of the process of educating you that the rules say you must have one. I do not think it's appropriate for a ridgerunner to demand to see it--that's a Ranger's job. May seem like I'm picking nits but there is a difference, possibly amplified by the tone of voice.
anybody been hiking on the a.t. in the smokies lately? watch out for ridgerunner glen. he's doing his best to annoy and offend every hiker he meets, demanding to see their permits and otherwise abusing his position. i'm not sure who he thinks he is. of course, he has no authority to check permits and he must have missed the ridgerunner training class in which they instruct ridgerunners to be friendly to hikers, not rude. a father and son who were hiking from springer to damascus told me that ridgerunner glen gave them all manner of grief for eating their lunch inside spence field shelter as hurricane dennis raged outside. that's crazy. i'm thinking about complaining to the hiking club about this guy. he's giving ridgerunners a bad name.
mingohorsecrapppy......................