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JLB
08-24-2005, 02:28
I did a 50 mile stretch last year, and rattled the trees with my snoring. I never did get a good nights sleep, and really hadn't had one in years before I got on the trail. I was really exhausted by the end of each day, and couldn't figure out why. When I came off the trail, instead of being healthy, and hearty, I was a wreck.

For years, evidently, I have had (undiagnosed) sleep apnea
this is a condition where the little flap on the back of your throat closes off, and you basically stop breathing, until your survival instinct kicks in, and you gasp. You never wake up, but it keeps you from getting the restful REM sleep.

I never suspected anything, but noticed however long I slept, even if it was 10-12 hours, I was tired when I woke up, and I compensated with caffiene.

Finally my wife told me that I stop breathing in the night, and sometimes up to 45 seconds.

I went in and got a sleep study done, and if you have 25 episodes per night, you have Sleep Apnea. Sleep Hypoxia goes along with it, and it's the average oxygenated blood flow.

My study came back with 129 episodes in 6 hours, and an oxygen loss down to 82% average.

My doctor, having heard that I had just spent 50 miles at altitude, told me that was a huge risk, as this can cause high blood pressure, and fatigue.

So, there are two courses of action:

Get an operation to remove the flap.

Get a C-Pap machine, which fits over your nose, and pumps 7 psi of pressure into my larynx, keeping the flap open.

My uncle had just died in minor surgery, so i opted for the machine, and felt 18 years old again after just one night of 6 hours. I honestly thought I had slept 10 hours. It was amazing.

So, my dilemma: I can only go a couple 2-3 days on the trail at altitude before I need to recuperate with a good nights sleep with my C-Pap, or I could get the operation, which isn't always succesful.

I could also move my next section hike to a lower elevation state, but don't know where to begin.

Does anybody else have this problem? It's said that 10% of all people have some form of sleep disorder, and the older you get, the worse it gets.

papa john
08-24-2005, 08:41
I have it as well. Unfortunately, I could not get any sleep with the CPAP machine despite having tried numerous headgear. The unit is now in the closet. During the evaluation, I register several hundred episodes during the night. The doctor said I was the most atypical OSA patient he had ever seen. I have none of the physical symptoms of the typical OSA patient.

Which headgear are you using?

I have seen devices that you can wear on your head that claim to keep your jaw positioned so that blockage does not occur and there are also dental appliances that do the same. I also read where there is no good data to indicated that these devices actually work.

orangebug
08-24-2005, 10:23
There is good data that CPAP works in only about 50% of OSA (Obstructive Sleep Apnea) patients. It is the preferred treatment as it does not require intrusive procedures and potentially lethal side complications. In those who fail on CPAP, surgery is often offered as having fewer risks than continued apnea events. I describe it to patients as having someone smother you with a pillow ever few minutes until you begin to arouse and regain your airway.

Hypertension, accidents, and sudden death are among the complications of untreated OSA.

Appliances to reposition the teeth or the head have not been shown to work. It would be terrific, as they are relatively cheap and even less intrusive than CPAP. If you have OSA and need treatment (assuming exercise, weight loss, smoking cessation and such were inadequate), a hiker would have to decide either to have surgical interventions, change sports, or experience frequent smothering each night on the trail.

sliderule
08-24-2005, 11:31
Get a C-Pap machine, which fits over your nose, and pumps 7 psi of pressure into my larynx, keeping the flap open.

Be happy that the CPAP is working for you. But please know that it is not putting out 7 psi. The "7" is centimeters of water, I suspect. Around 0.1 psi.

TnTom98
08-24-2005, 20:37
I did a 50 mile stretch last year, and rattled the trees with my snoring. I never did get a good nights sleep, and really hadn't had one in years before I got on the trail. I was really exhausted by the end of each day, and couldn't figure out why. When I came off the trail, instead of being healthy, and hearty, I was a wreck.

For years, evidently, I have had (undiagnosed) sleep apnea
this is a condition where the little flap on the back of your throat closes off, and you basically stop breathing, until your survival instinct kicks in, and you gasp. You never wake up, but it keeps you from getting the restful REM sleep.

I never suspected anything, but noticed however long I slept, even if it was 10-12 hours, I was tired when I woke up, and I compensated with caffiene.

Finally my wife told me that I stop breathing in the night, and sometimes up to 45 seconds.

I went in and got a sleep study done, and if you have 25 episodes per night, you have Sleep Apnea. Sleep Hypoxia goes along with it, and it's the average oxygenated blood flow.

My study came back with 129 episodes in 6 hours, and an oxygen loss down to 82% average.

My doctor, having heard that I had just spent 50 miles at altitude, told me that was a huge risk, as this can cause high blood pressure, and fatigue.

So, there are two courses of action:

Get an operation to remove the flap.

Get a C-Pap machine, which fits over your nose, and pumps 7 psi of pressure into my larynx, keeping the flap open.

My uncle had just died in minor surgery, so i opted for the machine, and felt 18 years old again after just one night of 6 hours. I honestly thought I had slept 10 hours. It was amazing.

So, my dilemma: I can only go a couple 2-3 days on the trail at altitude before I need to recuperate with a good nights sleep with my C-Pap, or I could get the operation, which isn't always succesful.

I could also move my next section hike to a lower elevation state, but don't know where to begin.

Does anybody else have this problem? It's said that 10% of all people have some form of sleep disorder, and the older you get, the worse it gets.

I also use a c-pap machine and have for years..when I was getting ready to hike in 1998 I asked my doctor what I should do...and he told me to take the machine and use it every night....lol... I explained to him about the trail...anyway I used the breath rite strips and really didn't have any trouble sleeping...and was told didn't snore too bad....I was woke up for my snoring a couple of times....after the weather got a little better I tented every night I could as I slept better in a tent anyway...

digger51
08-24-2005, 22:13
I dont know if I have a sleeping problem, but I do snore terribly. So I tent as I can put the tent on a slope helping my breathing and use the BreatheRite strips (the tan colored not the clear...better adhesive) and have improved both the snoring and amount of sleep I get. Good luck with your problem and I hope they find a solution that keeps you on the trail.

JLB
08-24-2005, 23:13
Be happy that the CPAP is working for you. But please know that it is not putting out 7 psi. The "7" is centimeters of water, I suspect. Around 0.1 psi.

Actually, I think they said it was 7 bar, whatever that means.

To the poster above: I use a gel type nose mask, and straps over the head. I've gotten used to it, and don't even know it's there any more.

JLB
08-24-2005, 23:23
There is good data that CPAP works in only about 50% of OSA (Obstructive Sleep Apnea) patients. It is the preferred treatment as it does not require intrusive procedures and potentially lethal side complications. In those who fail on CPAP, surgery is often offered as having fewer risks than continued apnea events. I describe it to patients as having someone smother you with a pillow ever few minutes until you begin to arouse and regain your airway.

Hypertension, accidents, and sudden death are among the complications of untreated OSA.

Appliances to reposition the teeth or the head have not been shown to work. It would be terrific, as they are relatively cheap and even less intrusive than CPAP. If you have OSA and need treatment (assuming exercise, weight loss, smoking cessation and such were inadequate), a hiker would have to decide either to have surgical interventions, change sports, or experience frequent smothering each night on the trail.I'm a fairly fit guy for my age, 42. I do have a very thick neck, and always have had a stocky frame. I am definitely not a lean type of guy, but I have a body fat index in the low teens, and work out regularly. i'm 5'7", and hover between 190 and 200 pounds, depending on my training.

http://www.fototime.com/{843B2357-93FE-4CBE-8493-BEFAA11BF208}/picture.JPG

http://www.fototime.com/{E427AA3C-AFBF-4AA0-9F67-5708B014A85B}/picture.JPG

As you can see, losing weight isn't a problem, as it's all muscle mass, but the thickening of my neck from exercise may have the same effect as a roll of fat.

Ridge
08-24-2005, 23:30
I have a friend with sleep apnea, she says that approximately 90 percent of cases is caused by obesity. She can't lose the weight so she has a breathing machine. Is this an accurate statement?

Clark Fork
08-25-2005, 00:28
JBL:

With a 7 setting, you have been diagnosed with a somewhat mild case in terms of correcting your condition.

At least look into an appliance: See Link: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=13666



There are several types one of which requires warming before putting it in. If you pursue it, ask for an appliance that does not require warming unless you think you can warm water before bedtime each trail evening.

As far a finding out if it works, you can have an oxygen test after you get used to the appliance. You don't have to have a full overnight sleep test. You hook up one finger to a machine and it records your O2 levels. The read out can tell you if it is working by analysing your O2 levels.

There is a positive correlation to obesity but some non obese people do have Obstructive Sleep Apnea. Surprisingly, this is a relatively new area of research and study with much being found out all the time so it is well to keep up with the news. Obesity is linked with OSA because when you are tired, your body wants more food to boost energy.

The cost usually exceeds $1,000 dollars and there is no guarantee it will work or that you can adjust to having your lower jaw set forward all night. I just had a re-evaluation after losing 45 lbs. Due to the weight loss, my condition has moderated. I am next going to be evaluated for an appliance. I will report in on the results. If there is some indication I could be helped by an appliance, I am going that route but at the same time I am still taking off lbs.

Now, if they only made a ultra-lite moonlight powered c-pap machine. :sun

Clark Fork in Western Montana

sliderule
08-25-2005, 00:42
Actually, I think they said it was 7 bar, whatever that means.

It means that they don't what they are talking about. Put 7 bar in you nose and someone will be cleaning your sinuses off the ceiling.

prozac
08-25-2005, 21:14
7 bar is roughly 100 PSI. What I assume you heard JLB was 7 millibar as that is only 0.1 PSI.

Dances with Mice
08-25-2005, 21:27
First 50 miles of the AT is "high altitude"?

JLB
08-25-2005, 21:36
7 bar is roughly 100 PSI. What I assume you heard JLB was 7 millibar as that is only 0.1 PSI.

It must be 7 psi then.

JLB
08-25-2005, 21:46
First 50 miles of the AT is "high altitude"?
Compared to sea level, yes.

I have apnea at my altitude (sea level), and hypoxia of 82%, which means my blood oxygenation level drops to that level, or at least it did the night they did my sleep study.

Now since air density decreases by about 1% for each 300 feet increase in height, or 3 C increase in temperature, at 3000 feet, I've lost at least 10%, compared to what I'm used to, HOWEVER, since the temps usually are lower at that height, I may only be losing around 5%. That's still pretty significant, when you start with an 82% oxygenation content baseline, and you are fatigued from walking all day. It takes it's toll.

JLB
08-25-2005, 21:57
I have a friend with sleep apnea, she says that approximately 90 percent of cases is caused by obesity. She can't lose the weight so she has a breathing machine. Is this an accurate statement?

It's genetic, but having a fat neck pressing down on your wind pipe can make it worse. My grandmother and father are world class snorers.

The problem is, being tired all of the time, you tend to gain weight.

Luckily, I've always had a fairly high metabolism plus exercise a lot, and have never been fat.

sliderule
08-25-2005, 23:25
7 bar is roughly 100 PSI. What I assume you heard JLB was 7 millibar as that is only 0.1 PSI.CPAP pressure is described in terms of centimeters of water. Same concept as inches of mercury. 1 cm H20 = .98 millibar.

JLB
08-26-2005, 00:00
CPAP pressure is described in terms of centimeters of water. Same concept as inches of mercury. 1 cm H20 = .98 millibar.

So, what pressure am I, converted to psi?


One wierd thing, when you open your mouth, you can feel the air rushing out.

papa john
08-26-2005, 07:33
I found a conversion calculator that converted it this way:

7 millibar = 0.101526416411146 pounds per square inch(pressure)

Goon
08-26-2005, 10:33
I have a friend with sleep apnea, she says that approximately 90 percent of cases is caused by obesity. She can't lose the weight so she has a breathing machine. Is this an accurate statement?
Not being in the medical field I can't say for most folks, but I was an olympic class snorer and would wake myself occasionally when I stopped breathing. All that stopped after I lost signficant weight and I don't even snore anymore.

sliderule
08-26-2005, 11:16
So, what pressure am I, converted to psi?
About 1/10 psi.
Here is a link to a nifty conversion tool:
http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/pressure

Ewker
10-26-2006, 12:44
I am joining this group again unfortunately. I tried using the cpap machine a couple of yrs ago with no luck. I started back this week using it after getting ripped by my Dr. I have a very narrow windpipe which is causing my sleep apnea.
Have any of you had any problems on the trail other than sounding like a freight train while you sleep.

orangebug
10-27-2006, 08:35
You won't hear from the folks with sudden death from OSA. If you are among the many who cannot respond to CPAP or similar equipment, plan on either a very painful surgery or a short life.

karo
10-27-2006, 22:18
I had the surgery a couple of years ago. After several failed attempts at the "frying" option on the roof of my mouth, I finally got the surgery. My mistake was having that surgery and sinus and deviated septum surgery all at the same time. I was off work for a month instead of the two weeks promised by my doctor. He did nothing wrong mind you, I just kept having nose bleeds and work would not have tolerated that. I think I am starting to have trouble with the snoring again tho. I think it is because of my sinuses causing me to breath thru my mouth too much. I have trouble sleeping on the trail cause I tend to sleep on my stomach now.

Pokey2006
10-27-2006, 22:34
I have friends with sleep apnea, so I can understand your frustration with the limitations posed by this condition.

A lot of this technical stuff is way over my head, but just one thought from a layman -- what about hiking normally during the day, but planning carefully so you're camping and sleeping at as low an elevation as possible? You'd still be up higher then sea level, but you could get down to, say 2,500 feet instead of 4,000 or 5,000. Not sure if that would even help, though. It would be warmer...

Fat Man Walking
10-28-2006, 00:11
I have OSA. In my sleep study, I stopped breathing over 200 times X 10 seconds or longer. I use CPAP and have had good luck with it.

As my name implies, I need to lose weight and I think that I am finally getting to the point to where I am willing to go to any means to do so. But, I have learned that I can not do this by myself. I just am not strong enough mentally and emotionally to do this.

I understand your exhaustion at the end of the day on the trail and then to know that you are not going to get a good night's sleep to boot. Sucks.

I generally spend two weeks on the trail each summer. I try to leave my vehicle at the mid-way point so that I know that at least on one or two nights (if I take a zero day) I am going to get some rest. That is also accompanied by a hotel room and bed, of course. Double bonus.

But none the less, I am determined not to give up. My doctor too told me about losing weight and that is my plan for prior to going next year. We'll see how that works. Another double bonus of losing weight is less stress on my knees which worry me more that my OSA.

Good luck.

RAT
10-28-2006, 00:46
I have a few friends who suffer from various forms of sleep apnea and know its devastating affects. Some use thos breathing mahcines at night, they have to. I cant imagine them hiking the trail. I guess I am lucky, however I do have a deviated septum from a major car wreck and breath alot thru my mouth, very aggravating. But I swear, the trail is the only place where I truly get my best sleep. Good luck to ya Fat Man Walking !

RAT

Blade
10-28-2006, 20:40
I have sleep apnea, and must use a CPAP machine at home to get any re****l sleep. After a couple hiking trips, I realized I'd have to give up backpacking or do something besides just not sleeping.

I had a TAP II dental appliance made, and while it does not work as well for me as CPAP, it does help. And on the trail I find that it along with some Breathe Rite strips help me get re****l sleep.

We all have our "must have" items on the trail, I'm just glad that my dental appliance only weighs a few ounces!

ed bell
10-28-2006, 20:52
And on the trail I find that it along with some Breathe Rite strips help me get re****l sleep.
Hmmm, I wonder what the adjective is before sleep?:confused:

Blade
10-28-2006, 21:00
R
E
S
T
F
U
L

Sleep. Apparently the website doesn't like use to use certain letters in certain combinations

Ewker
10-30-2006, 12:55
I have sleep apnea, and must use a CPAP machine at home to get any re****l sleep. After a couple hiking trips, I realized I'd have to give up backpacking or do something besides just not sleeping.

I had a TAP II dental appliance made, and while it does not work as well for me as CPAP, it does help. And on the trail I find that it along with some Breathe Rite strips help me get re****l sleep.

We all have our "must have" items on the trail, I'm just glad that my dental appliance only weighs a few ounces!

Blade, what exactly is the dental appliance. I haven't seen that before.
I may try the Breathe Rite Strips. I was up on Mt LeConte this past weekend and I was told that I snore really loud.

I have had the sleep study done and I don't sleep much at night per the test.

I hiked with Karo to Roan Mountain, he slept outside of the shelter about 30' away and he said he still heard me :eek:

Blade
10-30-2006, 19:59
Blade, what exactly is the dental appliance. I haven't seen that before. :
The one I use is the TAP II. It is adjustable and took me a few weeks to "tune" it to a setting that works for me. Do a Google on it or check out http://www.sleepmedicinenetwork.com/sol01.html for more info.



I may try the Breathe Rite Strips. I was up on Mt LeConte this past weekend and I was told that I snore really loud.:
The strips helped me with snoring, but by themselves were not enough to help my apnea. The combo of them with the TAP II made for several good nights of sleeping this past spring.



I have had the sleep study done and I don't sleep much at night per the test. :
I agree, the studies are no fun. I've heard that there are now some at-home oxygen sensors available for patient use, but haven't followed up on this. Maybe your sleep doctor can set you up with one for a couple nights? I don't believe they are as complete as the full test, but it might be enough to let you know if you have an apnea problem or just are a heavy snorer.

Other people I've talked to have tried a marine battery along with a portable 12v CPAP, but I don't see that working for backpacking (but maybe OK for canoe trips). For car camping I used to just bring my regular CPAP and run a power cord out of the tent and into a power inverter at the car. This dental appliance seems like the backpacking answer for me, but there are lots of differences in apnea conditions and it may or may not work for others. I do believe that it is an option that is worth exploring [note, I'm not affiliated with this company, just find that their product works for me].

EMAN
10-30-2006, 20:04
There is another procedure, still experimental, available that may help some folks. The procedure is called the Pillar Procedure. Basically a stiffening of the palate. I asked about it and was told it would do me no good as my palate was normal.
Another possible surgical solution I was told might help me, was to cut a wedge in the back of my tongue allowing for better air flow....yeah...right....he didn't even have to tell me that it was an extremely "uncomfortable" operation.
But for someone really desperate, it might be OK.
I have sleep apnea and the CPAP I use is set for "10" whatevers.
I don't recommend, and I'm certain the medical profession for the most part would probably freak out, I have a scrip for some sleep aids. There are obvious reasons to wonder about this, such as, episodes occuring while you're knocked out.
I'm a big guy and these things don't knock me out but a smaller person may want to determine whether they should only do a half or whatever just to help them sleep.
I went to Glacier and did 50 miles, and a trip to Springer a couple of weeks ago, and I could not have done it without these things, I awoke feeling rested. Doesn't stop the snoring as I'm sure Ewker will attest to but I do sleep.
These are only short term trips however. Doubt that I'd want to do this for 2000+ miles.

TIDE-HSV
11-01-2006, 20:10
heading for the surgery, eventually, but I still sleep soundly, so long as I sleep on my sides or my stomach. I have problems sleeping on my back, so I guess it's positional, so far. My BIL has had the surgery - twice. The first time didn't work, but the second one did. BTW, the obesity kicks in, in part, because you gain fat also in the oral cavity and trachea, etc...

Fat Man Walking
01-11-2007, 01:11
[quote=Blade;263537]The one I use is the TAP II. It is adjustable and took me a few weeks to "tune" it to a setting that works for me. Do a Google on it or check out http://www.sleepmedicinenetwork.com/sol01.html for more info.

I have been vasalating on getting in touch with my ENT. But this Blade, may push me over the edge.

I use a CPAP at home and when I travel in my job and have had good luck with it. In fact, I would say that I even like mine although it is somewhat of a pain in the axe to tote around etc.

But, I think that the past couple of years trips to the AT have been shortened because of sheer exhaustion at the end of the first week. I was just beat. No real sleep.

I hope to change that by changing to a hammock and if this deal will work for me, I may be a new hiker.

I will have to accept the toungue lashing (no pun intended) that my ENT is going to give me about my weight. But, that is the consequences of my lack of control over how much I eat. Something else I have to work on.

Thanks and I will let you know how this turns out.

I may owe you a beer or beverage of your choice. :-?

orangebug
01-11-2007, 09:52
The tongue lashing about your weight is the least of your problems.

You need a bit of education about what risks you are taking by the attempt to hike with OSA. A hammock will not change those risks. I am a big fan of LNT camping, particularly not leaving a corpse for someone else to carry out.

The fatigue, headaches and frequent awakenings are screaming a warning at you. By your description, you functionally have someone slamming a pillow over your face several times an hour as you attempt to sleep. Eventually, that pillow will have a very permanent effect.

If you wish to participate in our sport of long distance hiking, you need to investigate options of surgical intervention - with full knowledge that these also can fail.

zelph
01-11-2007, 18:51
My wife has sleep apnia. She uses a cpap machine. I have had many instances to observe her sleeping on the sofa(no machine) in a 45 degree incline, (on her back) without showing the symptoms(breathing stops).


I quote TIDE-HSV
heading for the surgery, eventually, but I still sleep soundly, so long as I sleep on my sides or my stomach. I have problems sleeping on my back, so I guess it's positional, so far. My BIL has had the surgery - twice. The first time didn't work, but the second one did. BTW, the obesity kicks in, in part, because you gain fat also in the oral cavity and trachea, etc...

He states that as long as he sleeps on his sides or stomach, all is fine. The same holds true for mywife. For myself, on my back I snore. On my sides and my stomach, no snore. Yesterday, I spoke with a technician at the sleep apnia clinic. She said most patients react the same way. Also stated that people can train themselves to sleep on their side.

JLB and others. Try sleeping on your sides(without cpap) and have your spouse/friend observe you for the symptoms. Only one post has been made concerning the sleep on side mode.

All of you should read the info that I just found today (http://www.cpap.com/productpage-advanced.php?PNum=139&All=1)concerning a light weight, battery operated cpap unit.

Can a hammock be used to position a person in a 45 degree angle for sleeping? or some other form of suspended gizmo? or lightweight canvas lounge chair type gizmo. Just throwing these things out for some thought, doing a little brainstorming.

Hope this info helps someone out there!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ewker
01-11-2007, 20:37
It doesn't matter if I lay on my side or back (never was a back sleeper) I still snore.

I went on a bping trip over NYE and the first night I didn't know if I would get any sleep or be able to continue on the hike. The rest of the trip I slept fine and boy did I snore loud!!

It have heard that the more you use the cpap machine the more you become dependent on it. Since I haven't been on mine that long I really don't know if that is true or not.

I am hoping that sometime in the future a cpap machine will be invented that a person can take bping.

I want to thru-hike the AT but just don't know if I will be able to.

karo
01-11-2007, 20:57
Blade, what exactly is the dental appliance. I haven't seen that before.
I may try the Breathe Rite Strips. I was up on Mt LeConte this past weekend and I was told that I snore really loud.

I have had the sleep study done and I don't sleep much at night per the test.

I hiked with Karo to Roan Mountain, he slept outside of the shelter about 30' away and he said he still heard me :eek:
Yeah but you kept the mice away!

zelph
01-11-2007, 21:05
Ewker!!!!!!!

Did you read the info i linked to about the backpacking cpap machine and if you did what do you thnk of it? It weighs only 1 1/2 pounds

Here, try it again



All of you should read the info that I just found today (http://www.cpap.com/productpage-advanced.php?PNum=139&All=1)concerning a light weight, battery operated cpap unit.




Karo!!!!!!! buy one for your buddy, so you can get some sleep:banana

Blade
01-11-2007, 21:09
... Thanks and I will let you know how this turns out.

I may owe you a beer or beverage of your choice. :-?

Mmmm, Beeeer!

Just a quick caveat ... everyone may react a bit differently and your OSA may be different from mine. For me the dental appliance works very well, but not as well as my CPAP treatment at home. I find it a great solution for hiking that gives me adequate and decent sleep, but it is treatment not a cure; I do not sleep as well as someone without apnea. That being said, I wish you luck in your quest for sleep! Let us know what you find out / end up trying.



... The fatigue, headaches and frequent awakenings are screaming a warning at you. By your description, you functionally have someone slamming a pillow over your face several times an hour as you attempt to sleep. Eventually, that pillow will have a very permanent effect.

If you wish to participate in our sport of long distance hiking, you need to investigate options of surgical intervention - with full knowledge that these also can fail.

I agree with you about the severity of the problem, and that surgery should be considered if your doctor is recommending it based on your case. Read all you can on this before having the surgery, as there is a great deal of anecdotal evidence that it most of the surgeries done do not "cure" apnea so much as reduce it's effect; i.e. - you may still need some sort of CPAP to keep proper blood oxygenation even after having part of your throat removed. This is not ideal for hiking apnea sufferers.

I am not part of the medical community (other than as a patient), and I strongly advocate getting a second & third opinion before taking one-way surgical procedures. One advantage of the dental appliance is that while it is expensive it is not permanent, if it doesn't work for you then surgery is still an option.

There is also a relatively new "Pillar" implant surgery that has helped some people, and there have been reports that in combination with a dental appliance it may be as effective as CPAP in some cases. I haven't gone down this route, but one attractive thing about it is that it is reversible; the implants can be removed.

Severe apnea on the trail can be a very bad thing, definitely long-term but also short-term if the sleep deficit leads to accidents.

Blade
01-11-2007, 21:14
Doh! Haven't read thru this thread for a while, and I see that EMAN already posted some info on the Pillar procedure.


There is another procedure, still experimental, available that may help some folks. The procedure is called the Pillar Procedure. Basically a stiffening of the palate. I asked about it and was told it would do me no good as my palate was normal.
Another possible surgical solution I was told might help me, was to cut a wedge in the back of my tongue allowing for better air flow....yeah...right....he didn't even have to tell me that it was an extremely "uncomfortable" operation.
But for someone really desperate, it might be OK. ...

Anyone out there tried this?

Ewker
01-11-2007, 21:42
Ewker!!!!!!!

Did you read the info i linked to about the backpacking cpap machine and if you did what do you thnk of it? It weighs only 1 1/2 pounds

Here, try it again



Karo!!!!!!! buy one for your buddy, so you can get some sleep:banana

yeah it is nice but you still have to carry a battery pack that weighs 8 lbs:mad:

TIDE-HSV
01-20-2007, 19:16
Interesting name. My last name is "Self," sometimes it's spelled "Selph." I've trained myself to side and belly-sleep. I have a pillow - memory foam - with a hollow I fill with a small flat pillow for side sleeping. When I move to my stomach, I slide down off it so my spine is not compressed and retro-curved. Belly-sleeping is painful (in the AM) for folks with bad backs, which includes me. It's a lot worse with the head elevated. It goes without saying that anything like a hammock, which must have a catenary curve, is out for me and my belly-sleeping. I use a foam/air mattress, since the side sleeping requires more padding. Having an oft-broken nose, I use the Breath-Rite strips also. They are great. (If you've rafted the Ocoee River, the Broken Nose rapid is named for me.) BTW, the surgery my BIL had for his apnea was laser surgery, and, as I said, the second one succeeded...

zelph
01-23-2007, 18:51
[quote=TIDE-HSV;306774]Interesting name. My last name is "Self," sometimes it's spelled "Selph."

The name Zelph was attached to the skeletal remains of an ancient warrior found in a burial mound in southern Illinois. Had a flint point/arrowhead stuck in one of his ribs near his spine, was thought to be cause of death. Interesting to know that ancient inhabitants of north America were the ones responsible for starting the AT.

Just purchased a 1 inch thick sheet of memory foam to make a sleeping pad. I like sleeping on my tummy and sides, one leg up to the side , head supported on my hand or forearm.

TIDE-HSV
01-24-2007, 12:57
Thanks....