Another Cold Weather Question

[Teacher & Snacktime]

Some more "keep warm" advice needed: I went for a walk tonight to try out the winter gear I've gathered. It was 24* with a wind chill into the low teens. I walked 3.2 miles in the following: polypropylene mudondies, nylong hiking pants, merino wool socks, wicking poly baselayer, merino sweater, lightweight zipper fleece sweater, NF raincoat (shell), fleece beanie, acrylic scarf.

I was nice and warm and dry for the entire walk, but when I got home and started shedding the layers I noticed that the inside of the shell was wet...soaking...dripping (literally), and that the fleece layer was quite wet but only on the outside where it came in contact with the shell.

All the other layers were still dry and toasty.

Is this a good outcome, or if I'd been out longer would the moisture have seeped into the other layers? What might I have done differently?

[Bags4266]

The shell wasn't breathing. Condensation was building up

[Feral Bill]

The rainshell did not breath, leading to the condensation. If possible, vent the shell via zippers, looser drawcords, or whatever it has. I prefer a fully breathable wind shell to avoid just this problem. Also, you may have had too much insulation. Cozy warm--->sweat.

As a reference, many years ago I wore, when hiking in sub-zero weather, a cotton fishnet t shirt (now obsolete), a medium weight wool sweater (thanks, Mom!) and a 60-40 Parka (breathable cotton/nylon blend). I never got sweaty in any layer. Currently I wear a merino shirt, furry fleece (breathes well) and a breathable nylon anorak. If it rains I use a ponch and expect to get damp. Honestly, the old outfit worked better for warmth and moisture control, but was heavy and somewhat abrasive.

If you leave off either the sweater or fleece you may well be fine.

You are wise in trying out gear ahead of time, but of course you know that.

[Mags]

Your shell was blocking the moisture from escaping. Fleece is wonderful for letting moisture escape. In cold and dry weather, a windshirt vs traditional rain gear works great..or even no shell at all if the wind is mild.

More great info on shells in really cold weather:
http://wintertrekking.com/clothing/outerlayers/


Currently I wear a merino shirt, furry fleece (breathes well) and a breathable nylon anorak.

Looks like Bill's reply mirrored my own in many ways..and quicker too. :) FWIW, this is my choice as well for ski touring...even the anorak!

[moldy]

Good and normal outcome, and yes the moisture would have kept spreading. The reality of hairless warmblooded creatures wanting to keep out the cold and do heavy work at the same time. No high-tech clothing system ever invented will vent all the moisture you produce and still keep you warm in cold weather. The system you used is as good as it gets.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

My shell is a NF rain jacket....should I vent the armpits to reduce the condensation or would it be a better idea to ditch the shell in favor of an additional fleece...bearing in mind 20-25mph winds. I'm planning to try out a different combo on tonight's walk, so suggestlons would be great.

Oh....and all the layers are close-fitting (or snug)....should I be "loosening up"?

AND....is a light vaseline coating still the best protection against windburn?

[Teacher & Snacktime]

duplicate...oops

[nastynate]

While both hiking and running, I prefer to be cool if weather permits. So maybe drop a layer or two once you warm up.

[peakbagger]

Waterproof breathable is major marketing term that really doesnt apply to most outdoor activities. If someone is sitting still and the the conditions are right the clothes may breathe enough to keep from retaining moisture but if someone is active forget it. Most good shells have pit zips and ventilated pockets that help but with a pack on your back will still get wet. The layer approach works although managing all the layers is a pain. In winter I need to start out with a half empty pack so that as I take layers off I have a place to put them. I have a tight fitting baselayer but everything else can be unzipped and hang loose. In windy cold conditions I use a light weight balaclava, As I warm up I can roll it up but it works great when windy.

[Feral Bill]

My shell is a NF rain jacket....should I vent the armpits to reduce the condensation or would it be a better idea to ditch the shell in favor of an additional fleece...bearing in mind 20-25mph winds. I'm planning to try out a different combo on tonight's walk, so suggestlons would be great.

Oh....and all the layers are close-fitting (or snug)....should I be "loosening up"?

AND....is a light vaseline coating still the best protection against windburn?

Start with venting the pits. If that fails, see the various suggestions above.

[cjlusmc]

In similar weather conditions, and with similar clothing, I just take my beanie off for a few minutes to thermo-regulate. It's something you may want to try. It's a lot easier than stripping off layers. Might be worth a try.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

Ok....I'll give the outer fleece layer a shot tonight and hold"s off on the shell (I'll throw a Frogg Toggs in my pack just in case the wind is too much). I have to have "shed-ability" since I'll be stopping for pizza halfway.

I normally walk around town with a light fleece and a down vest and it's perfect....still not sure why it's such a no no for the trail if I'm careful to keep moisture low.

Wish me luck....and extra cheese.

[Feral Bill]

Congratulations to all of us for a thoughtful, civil discussion of a a worthwhile topic.

[Bags4266]

Good luck. My best piece of gear which I carry in all seasons is my 3oz wind jacket. Very breathable. Let us know how ya did .

[Another Kevin]

I don't know about you, but I need a good bit more insulation around town than I do on the trail. Carrying a full pack and going up and down over rocks and roots and mud is just harder work.

If you have condensation problems, do something about them, because condensation will indeed continue to accumulate. If you have pit zips, open them. Unzip the vent pockets. Unzip the front. If you're stilll condensing, you're still warm, so take the shell off or get rid of a layer underneath it. I know that in my younger days, I'd sometimes surprise myself at how little I was wearing - nylon shorts over my baselayer at temps close to freezing, with my midlayer, my wind shell. my pants and my puffy all packed (or at least lashed to my pack).

The main reason I was wearing my midlayer when I was out with you and Snacktime was that I was spending so much time stopped. You saw that when I was moving and the Sun was up that I was just wearing my baselayer, sometimes a fleece, and the orange vest. And there was frost on the ground when we started out in the morning!

Taking off the beanie to cool down also works admirably, but unllike cjlusmc (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?48414-cjlusmc), I don't like that very much. My ears get windburnt too easily, and they will be hurting - with the skin peeling - for the rest of the trip if I have them exposed in cold weather for any length of time.

I goofed this morning. I wore my Marmot Zeus under my hardshell because the weatherman said there was a -2°F wind chill with the 10°F temperature. (And I had extra weight in my day pack because I was returning some borrowed electronics to work.) Guess what? My Marmot Zeus and my hardshell together are too hot to walk in with my full pack weight at -2°F wind chill. Good thing that it was just a mile and a bit, because the inside of my hardshell was soaked with condensation and my baselayer was all sweaty when I got to work. (I ducked into the men's locker room and changed to dry undies.)

That's what I get for replacing gear. (Which I needed to do - I looked at my gear rack, and none of my old winter stuff fits me any more - I was 40 pounds heavier when I got it.) The Zeus is warmer than the synthetic I used to wear.

[Drybones]

Every "body" is different and what works for one may not work for another. When I put a pack on it's like adding a thick layer. How fast you hike will greatly affect what you need. This past spring I hiked in the teens with high winds (25-30 mph) and wore nylon pants with no base layer, a thin wool tee, a 1/4 zip tee and a rain shell...didn't get cold or hot (except for the hands, couldn't feel them), but I was hiking pretty fast to get off the mountain and out of the storm. If I'm moving I need very little and at the first hint of sweat I take a layer off, I'd rather be a little cold than sweat and freeze later. If I'm not cold for the first 15 minutes I know I'm overdressed.

[pawlinghiker]

I hiked yesterday, it was real windy and about 15- 20 degrees.

I wore Capeline 3 bottom base layer with cotton shorts and merlino socks. Up top I Cap 2 top with a NF TKA 100 1/4 zip and my Patagonia R4 wind proof fleece. I was plenty warm, got a little cool at drink breaks... but a nice hot drink fixed that.

Usually need to take off my 1/4 zip but not yesterday.

Colder days a comin.....

[bfayer]

I think overall your layering strategy is fine with the exception of the rain shell. In winter staying dry is everything, so you really need to rethink the rain shell. Eventually the fleece would have wetted through and that can be dangerous.

I would really consider a hooded wind shirt if I were you. The rain shell is great to have for when you stop, but I would rarely recommend hiking in one except when necessary to keep the rain out. if not a wind shirt, then replace your fleece layer with a soft shell. I like the wind shirt as it offer a wider range of flexibility than the soft shell and is easier to pack.

[MuddyWaters]

The simple answer is you really wore too much insulation in conjuction with the shell for your heat output.

As other said, ventillating the shell well well would help
Or, take off the excess layers
Or, reduce your energy expenditure

Make no mistake, managing body moisture is a skill.
An important skill in winter.

Wearing a vapor barrier under your insulation, but over your baselayer, can provide rapid feedback, and keep your insulation dry. This is how one might hike while wearing down jacket.

[fiddlehead]

You won't be the first to shed the $300 North Face jacket and take the $29 Frogg Togg jacket instead.
Much better choice.

Don't believe all the hype.
The North Face is for wearing at the mall.
Frogg Toggs are for keeping you dry.

[bigcranky]

I don't think this is a good outcome. Being that wet inside your clothing layers is a recipe for disaster in the long run.

Two options:

1. Wear fewer insulation layers under the shell. I would wear one insulation layer under the shell, not two, and be prepared to vent the shell (pit zips, pockets, main zipper) and lose the hat or wear a lighter one.

2. A light weight wind shirt will block the wind but is much more breathable than a rain shell. I have several - a single layer wind shirt for spring and fall, and a Marmot DriClime jacket for winter. Over a light merino base layer it's good walking down into the 30s, and I can add a microfleece zip tee and walk down into the teens (in the mountains wearing a pack.)

Good luck testing -- it's part of the fun.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

Well, this evening's hike was much more successful. The layers were similar: mid-weight merino socks, polypropylene mudondies, nylon pants, wicking baselayer, merlino sweater, fleece 1/4 snap-up pullover, fleece earband.

The temp was 30* with very little wind, so the conditions were much better than last night. We hiked 4.5 miles with 3 stops, each long enough to have to shed at least the outerwear.

I'm happy to say that I was quite comfortable with the warmth the 3 layers provided, and did not experience ANY excess moisture (even the baselayer was dry enough to strip down to it for our stint in the pizza parlor). So I've learned some good stuff and been provided important information here.

Now my remaining test has to be in similar conditions with the young man. Hiking with Snacktime is a much slower process (if packs and scrambles are involved), so it may be that something additional might be needed to counteract the effect of the reduced pace (thanks to who mentioned that scenario, by the way).

On our last cold-weather hike, I just wore my down vest over everything and frequently added/removed it as needed. It never stayed on long enough to cause a moisture problem, so I may plan to do this again.....unless I come across (or make) a synthetic one that does the same thing.

[T.S.Kobzol]

I always wet from sweat so I wear layers that retain warmth when wet. Also spare toplayer to change after submitting. On the way up I wear wind resistant Houdini that is as thin and breathable as it can get but in my pack I carry a winter Gore-Tex shell In the event of harsher conditions.

Sent from my vivid imagination and delusions of grandeur

[T.S.Kobzol]

Summiting / top layer

Sent from my vivid imagination and delusions of grandeur

[Tri-Pod Bob]

Being a fairly new trail hiker, but longtime outdoorsman & bushwacker, I'll chip in my .02. As most have mentioned here, thermo regulating is key & it looks like you're on the right track. My preference is to stay comfortably cool, instead of warm & toasty. I'll only add layers if necessary. I generate heat like a furnace, even at rest, due to an extremely high metabolism, so 'necessary' rarely happens when I'm active unless conditions get extreme. We all have different rates of caloric burn & that has to be taken into consideration, IMO. Lastly, I think a lanolin cream with vitamin A, or even A & D Ointment, is a wiser choice than Vasoline. The lack of sunlight this time of year lowers our ability to mftr these vitamins naturally. Plus, your skin will still be able to breath much better, too.

[Slo-go'en]

I had the condensation problem with a Patagonia rain jacket when used in the winter (and likely any other time!). I'd go for a little snowshoing out back and come home to it dripping wet inside the jacket. I finally broke down and bought a proper Gortex jacket (on sale thankfully) and the problem went away. An uncoated nylon shell (no liner) will work almost as well, but isn't quite as effective in blocking wind.

[1azarus]

hello teacher and snacktime! I believe the push in the direction of a 3 ounce windshirt is the right direction. some years ago someone here posted that the windshirt was their best piece of gear, and i think they were right... once you've reached "hiker equilibrium temperature" in cold weather hiking (does take about 15 minutes of brisk walking...)to be comfortable i suggest you wear base layer only first, then windshirt if too cold, then fleece (or synthetic fleece) under or over windshirt if still too cold. add gloves and a hat and/or whatever that neck warmer tube thingee is called... then frogg toggs top -- but almost never needed, except for short break stops. other good advice -- go for slightly cool -- helps to avoid sweating. stop to remove "extra" clothing to remain cool -- especially the frogg togg jacket. the nicest thing about hiking in the cooler months is that you can regulate a comfortable temperature by adjusting pace and clothing... something not usually possible in the summer months.

[jeffmeh]

hello teacher and snacktime! I believe the push in the direction of a 3 ounce windshirt is the right direction. some years ago someone here posted that the windshirt was their best piece of gear, and i think they were right... once you've reached "hiker equilibrium temperature" in cold weather hiking (does take about 15 minutes of brisk walking...)to be comfortable i suggest you wear base layer only first, then windshirt if too cold, then fleece (or synthetic fleece) under or over windshirt if still too cold. add gloves and a hat and/or whatever that neck warmer tube thingee is called... then frogg toggs top -- but almost never needed, except for short break stops. other good advice -- go for slightly cool -- helps to avoid sweating. stop to remove "extra" clothing to remain cool -- especially the frogg togg jacket. the nicest thing about hiking in the cooler months is that you can regulate a comfortable temperature by adjusting pace and clothing... something not usually possible in the summer months.

+1. Wind shirt or soft shell if the weather is dry, including dry snow. Multiple layers that maintain insulation when damp, wearing only as many layers as necessary to be warm enough without excessive perspiration. Hard shell only if the conditions are wet, or when you stop as an extra layer. I love my Patagonia Houdini. And of course, each outer layer should be large enough to accommodate the inner layers.

[Old Hiker]

Lot of responses above to what I was thinking:

Why do we need to stay "toasty warm"? I only tried to keep my face warm in 2012, but it was pretty warm compared to 2013. With my backpack keeping my back warm and my BDU quilted liner worn backwards, I was pretty warm when starting to hike. I had to take the liner off after a mile or two or I was sweating. I wore a short sleeved wicking shirt.

I even had to take my fleece hat off while hiking, as I was sweating underneath it. Ended up tying my bandana around my ears and cheeks, babushka style, to keep those parts warm. Stylish ?? You betcha !

When I stopped and took my pack off, I could feel moisture on my back. I'd wait a few minutes for it to dry (something that NEVER happens here in FL) and then put my liner on forwards to keep warm while eating/drinking, etc.

The only time it was "really" cold and windy, I had my rain pants on and vented.

I'll keep lurking and getting ideas - I thank everybody for their thoughtful input, as post #13 did as well.

[Another Kevin]

I recently picked up a cheapo, no-name windshirt on an impulse. (It was ten bucks at a job lot store.) All that the care tag says is, '100% polyester', and it's just half-zip, no hood, no pit zips.

I've just been playing around with it walking around town. I walk to work with about 15-20 lb in a daypack, so that I can at least get in a couple of miles every day. The mile or so that I walk each way is just enough to start getting warmed up and have an idea about how stuff works.

I find that the impermeability of the windshirt means that I really have to watch out for overdressing. The windshirt over a fleece and polypro baselayer was too warm at 25 degrees. I think windshirt over baselayer might have been about right - which surprised me.

The windshirt is light enough that I think I may take it along on the Harriman outing. That will mean more pieces, but I've saved some weight by switching to a Marmot Zeus from my REI synthetic puffy. So I'll probably have a choice of five layers available: polypro baselayer, fleece, windshirt, down puffy, hardshell. Since the trip is on trail and Harriman is remarkably open forest, I might actually leave the hardshell at home in favor of a Frogg Toggs rain jacket. I got the hardshell for bushwhacking, so it's bombproof but HEAVY.

Gotta experiment some more. This is turning into something very different from what my layering system has been. But baselayer, windshirt, fleece, down puff, raincoat looks to offer more versatility, and the weight that I save switching to the down from the synthetic and to the Frogg Toggs from the hardshell means that the five pieces weigh about equal to the four I used before.

I'd imagine that any time that I'd wear the Zeus, I'd put on the windshirt underneath as a vapor barrier. That way, if I've goofed, I won't wet out the down.

[futureatwalker]

I'm a runner, and one rule-of-thumb that I've heard (for running) is to dress for weather 20 degrees warmer than the actual temperature. So, if its in the 50s, dress as if it's in the 70s.

Now, when hiking I don't quite generate the same amount of heat, but I can do if carrying a pack or going up hills.

My big thing is to stay dry. So I want to dress to be cool. A long-sleeve polypropylene top or poly/wool mix and a shell get me pretty far, unless it's bitterly cold. On my legs I'll wear shorts and gore-tex rain pants. And I'll wear a hat and gloves.

But to the original poster, you are doing the right thing by just going out and trying different combinations.

Incidentally, when at a race, you can usually tell new runners because they wear way too many clothes....

[Feral Bill]

I'm a runner, and one rule-of-thumb that I've heard (for running) is to dress for weather 20 degrees warmer than the actual temperature. So, if its in the 50s, dress as if it's in the 70s.

Now, when hiking I don't quite generate the same amount of heat, but I can do if carrying a pack or going up hills.

My big thing is to stay dry. So I want to dress to be cool. A long-sleeve polypropylene top or poly/wool mix and a shell get me pretty far, unless it's bitterly cold. On my legs I'll wear shorts and gore-tex rain pants. And I'll wear a hat and gloves.

But to the original poster, you are doing the right thing by just going out and trying different combinations.

Incidentally, when at a race, you can usually tell new runners because they wear way too many clothes.... I believe you have that flipped, but definately thr right idea.

[canoe]

I believe you have that flipped, but definately thr right idea. Whaaaat? I think hes got it right.

[Feral Bill]

Whaaaat? I think hes got it right. Yikes! You're right.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

I hate to sound like a complete novice, but what exactly is a windshirt?

[Feral Bill]

I hate to sound like a complete novice, but what exactly is a windshirt? It's a very light, simple jacket to block the wind.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

aka windbreaker? or my nylon cycling pullover? (which Snacktime and I just chopped up to make trail bags from since its waterproofing has worn away)

[TAG]

Yep...I use the "dress for 20 degrees warmer" than the actual temperature rule. The only caveat is the wind - if it is very windy, I'll add a windblock layer. I would rather be a little cold while moving than "toasty warm" and sweating.

[1azarus]

my definition of a windshirt is NOT waterproof at all -- and NOT a vapor barrier. if it is either, it is rain gear or specialized gear for outrageously cold temps.

look at patagonia houdini or patagonia nine trails for perfect wind shirts. I'm pretty sure my wind shirt is a nine trails jacket since it has the back pocket.

thah's wha-dime talkin about! and i like the dress for 20 degrees warmer advice for a useful benchmark.

[bfayer]

Most quality windshirts have a DWR coating. So waterproof, no, water resistant, yes.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

[gollwoods]

golf attire windshirts are nice and costly, but I found one with removable arms which means pit zips for me, it is 1/4 zip too. but it has a lining which makes it pretty warm. I usually use it at camp anyway. another way I keep warm but not too warm is just wearing light long underwear bottoms with shorts, seems to be pretty comfortable while moving

[rocketsocks]

One of the things I do after walking a while is let out all the moist humid sweaty air that has built up, once I get rid of this "first sweat", I'm usually good to go. I try to do this before it actually turns to sweat, I can usally feel it welling up...like a hot flash.

[rocketsocks]

PS...this is a good tread.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

I can usually feel it welling up...like a hot flash.

Tell me more.....I'm not quite familiar with this concept.....(choke)

Chances are, because of this "unfamiliar concept", I'll be dressing up and down like a whirling dervish...much like any other day! :jump

[Teacher & Snacktime]

Lastly, I think a lanolin cream with vitamin A, or even A & D Ointment, is a wiser choice than Vasoline. The lack of sunlight this time of year lowers our ability to mftr these vitamins naturally. Plus, your skin will still be able to breath much better, too.

Thanks...I have some Nivea, which is essentially lanolin, and I'll give that a shot first, then give the A & D a try.


Ended up tying my bandana around my ears and cheeks, babushka style, to keep those parts warm. Stylish ?? You betcha !

Hey, we hikers are nothing if not fashion-conscious!

[Another Kevin]

If it's a sunny day in the winter, sunscreen and sunglasses (or glacier goggles!) are important. You can get twice the UV in the winter when it's reflecting off the snow.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

I was thinking of hitting a ski shop to get Snacktime some goggles for wind protection....they're cooler than sunglasses (which he won't wear)


...and stop using that "S" word

[Teacher & Snacktime]

Thanks everyone for your help and input. I don't think we're done here yet, but I just wanted to make sure I got that said. You are all warming the cockles of my heart....as well as the rest of me!

[shelterbuilder]

My $0.02's worth: Muddy Waters and Tri-Pod Bob are on the right track. Let me paraphrase something that I read MANY years ago when I was a beginning backpacker. The idea isn't to stay "toasty-warm" WHILE YOU HIKE, but rather to remain "comfortably cool". This may sound silly in the wintertime, but by staying cool, you will sweat less, and reduce the amount of sweat that you pump into your clothes. (Of course, when you stop, the extra layers should come out - to maintain comfort.) I used to tell my backpacking students, "if you're sweating, you're either overdressed, or you are moving too fast -- dress down or slow down." Now, regarding vapor barriers (which work really well at the Poles, but not-so-well anyplace else): a vapor barrier worn over the base layer and under your insulation will keep you warm...but damp-ish. The body will sweat until the relative humidity on the surface of the skin reaches about 95%; then you will stop sweating, more or less. The vapor barrier will contain your sweat next to your skin, and away from your insulation layers, and you will "side-step" the whole "damp clothes" issue. But in temperatures between freezing and about -20*F, it's like walking around in a sauna-suit, and I don't recommend it. Bottom line: keep doing what you're doing, because it sounds like you're learning to balance your heat and sweat production. Stay "comfortably cool"!!

[Papa D]

golf attire windshirts are nice and costly, but I found one with removable arms which means pit zips for me, it is 1/4 zip too. but it has a lining which makes it pretty warm. I usually use it at camp anyway. another way I keep warm but not too warm is just wearing light long underwear bottoms with shorts, seems to be pretty comfortable while moving

this is what I do - - even when the weather is into the teens, you will often see me with long underwear or tights under shorts - I like Mtn Hardware Canyon Shorts - - I even ski in shorts at least a few days a year. (not the golfer windshirts so much - - prefer patagonia or smartwool light top with arcteryx rain jacket if needed)
Good reply.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

I grew up in the time when more was better, so like Ralphie's mom, was a firm believer that if my kids could lower their arms in their coats or you could actually see part of their faces, then they weren't sufficiently bundled. Mind, I don't think I personally ever buttoned a coat or a jacket fully myself, but no wind or weather would touch the kids.

Thus my dilemma in all this practical "no sweat" business.....I'm planning on outfitting my grandson in a manner that defies all I know and believe about thermal requirement! I'm content to be comfortably cool while hiking, but I just know that without 20 layers and beads of sweat on his brow I won't feel I'm insulating him from the elements!

Ah well, I suppose I'll just have to heed all the wisdom here and give the kid a chance to actually be able to get himself up if he should happen to fall.....

[Teacher & Snacktime]

Will we need these, and is this a good pair....or good enough at least.... http://www.rei.com/product/813885/otto-all-season-gaiters-unisex-special-buy

[1azarus]

this is what I do - - even when the weather is into the teens, you will often see me with long underwear or tights under shorts - I like Mtn Hardware Canyon Shorts - - I even ski in shorts at least a few days a year. (not the golfer windshirts so much - - prefer patagonia or smartwool light top with arcteryx rain jacket if needed)
Good reply.


ok...i've been wanting to talk about this. i've been wearing tights under shorts for cold weather hiking for the last year or so, and have been liking it. i thought it was a good idea because it meant that if there was precipitation my tights would require less body heat to dry than my normal hiking pants... and the tights keep me pretty comfortably warm while hiking. I layer up when it gets colder or when i stop for an (infrequent) break. i guess you could say there is no excess fabric in a pair of tights, and that is an advantage in wet weather. up until now, for me, those tights were just a synthetic runner's tights. i did just get a pair of patagonia capilene 4 tights (also got a hoodie...) to wear, and will try them with shorts this winter. i have been wondering if the capilene weave is dependent on wearing some top layer to provide warmth -- it seems as though they are designed to create some dead air space... can't quite tell. so papa d and others, why would anybody wear tights and shorts in the winter, other than to be stylin'...?

[Another Kevin]

Will we need these, and is this a good pair....or good enough at least.... http://www.rei.com/product/813885/otto-all-season-gaiters-unisex-special-buy

I'm not familiar with those in particular, but I wear high gaiters a lot. About a third of my hikes are bushwhacks, and the blackberries and viburnum can be brutal. The EMS store brand worked OK for me until I spaced out and left mine hanging in a shelter. When I replaced them, I picked up OR ones at a clearance sale.

Gaiters are particularly important if you're not wearing gusseted boots. At least if you like dry socks.

Anyone got suggestions what to do about condensation in your gaiters? I've noticed that on a couple of recent trips, It wasn't too bad, my tights were quick to dry, but moisture anywhere bears watching in the winter.