Biggest fault in gsmnp reservation system [Archive]

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Duramax22

11-26-2013, 19:14

I have come to the conclusion that there needs to be an easy way to cancel your permit and open the spot back up to others. Take this coming weekend for example with the snow moving in. A lot of the nice location shelters are booked full but you know damn well that not all those people are going to show up with the weather. They need to be able to go online and cancel the permit which results in openings immediately being posted on the permit calendar for people who are up for the weather. Another example is a month ago at mt leconte a group of 2 came in but had a permit for 6 and the other 4 bailed out leaving a half empty shelter even though permit site says full. Certainly there are people who could have taken advantage.

10-K

11-26-2013, 19:17

Same as it has always been except they made a few dollars since they charge now.

MuddyWaters

11-26-2013, 20:11

Same as it has always been except they made a few dollars since they charge now.

Yep. Nothing new.
I dont know of any statistics, but I would guess the percentage of hikers that either no-show, or drop out is not small.

wornoutboots

11-26-2013, 20:23

Agreed!! This is a perfect example if non backpackers running a backpackers system!! Please send them this suggestion!!

10-K

11-26-2013, 20:34

Yep. Nothing new.
I dont know of any statistics, but I would guess the percentage of hikers that either no-show, or drop out is not small.

As I recall, charging for reservations was supposed to cut down on no shows but that never made sense really.

If you're 100+ miles away and change your mind about going to the park I doubt because you spent $20 making reservations that would be enough of an incentive to keep you from canceling.

Duramax22

11-26-2013, 20:54

Im not concerned about the money, i think if you make a reservation and cancel you shouldnt be refunded. i look at it as more of a donaton anyways, The problem is there is no easy cancellation available to permit holders that when they cancel the spot immediately becomes available on the permit website to somebody else who is able to go. Im going this weekend and all the shelters im at are booked full but i would bet my entire pack that not one of those shelters will be at capacity or probably even half capacity especially in the higher altitudes where the weather will scare some people off.

Dogwood

11-26-2013, 21:04

Some NPs purposefully overbook campsites/shelters because of no shows that have reservations. Some NP Back Country Ranger's Offices have gotten real good at predicting no shows %'s. No shows are nothing new. If I had $1 for every time I reached a campsite well after dark that was supposedly booked up yet NO ONE was there I'd be halfway to buying that that new cuben shelter I've been looking at.

Dogwood

11-26-2013, 21:05

I work it to my advantage.

RichardD

11-27-2013, 00:05

During my 2011 thru a ridgerunner in GSMNP told me that typically only 40% of those with reservations actually show up.

Praha4

11-27-2013, 00:16

HooKooDooKu

11-27-2013, 00:20

Same as it has always been except they made a few dollars since they charge now.

The OP makes a perfectly valid point, and I think he should pursue the idea to the point of making sure the suggestion gets properly forwarded to the National Park Service.

But I think the OP isn't totally thinking the issue through. Even if the NPS updates the software to make cancellations as easy as possible, 95% of the time it could be used it will not be used.

Point #1. You can't allow cancellations to be issued a refund. To do so would encourage people to save as many spots as possible and then cancel them at the last moment hoping no one uses them and they therefore get the site more to themselves.

Point #2. If you're not going to get a refund, there isn't much point in cancelling. There is always the possibility that a last minute change might get reversed... and I sure as heck don't want to risk cancelling a reservation I'm going to pay for anyway just in case there is a last minute reversal in plans. Further more, since I'm already paying for more spots than I need and I can't get a refund, there is no point in cancelling because I might as well use the money to keep the campsite less crowded.

I'm sure the NPS had that exact discussion when they decided to roll out the new website... there is no point in adding features to website version 1.0 that isn't going to get used 95% of the time that it could get used.

Starchild

11-27-2013, 00:23

The shelter system in the Smokies has the additional effect of limiting visitation, and by that limiting impact. It may not be seen as a great negative that a shelter is not full even if there is demand.

And thru hikers sometimes appreciate the extra space, as they are exempt from this rule of reservations, but shelter space is sometimes welcome.

Dogwood

11-27-2013, 02:53

I get your pt Duramax. I would however change your attitude. It might help all. "A lot of the nice location shelters are booked full but you know damn well that not all those people are going to show up with the weather. They(how about We) need to be able to go online and cancel the permit which results in openings immediately being posted on the permit calendar for people who are up for the weather." It's obvious you would want to have a space opened up immediately for you due to a cancellation but you should also be prepared to notify the NPS of your cancellation, should YOU ever need to cancel, to allow others your space should you not show up. Works both ways.

The whole pt IN MY MIND of calling the NPS, which is what I've done twice when I had to cancel a reservation in the many reservations I've had at NPs, OR cancelling through the NPS reservation system, is to inform the NPS so that my spot/reservation is made available to someone else who might need/want it so I think it inconsiderate of others if I was to take HooKooDooKu's Pt #2 although I totally agree with him saying you have a valid pt and his Pt #1. I've never cancelled through the on line reservation system at any NP though. I've always called the Back Country Rangers Office or whoever gives out the shelter/campsite reservations with my cancellation. And, I know when I REALLY really want a spot at, say a shelter or camping area like in GSMNP, I purposefully call a LIVE Ranger and ask IF there have been any cancellations at that shelter/campsite and what they might recommend. That alone has worked for me about three times in GSMNP securing a spot at a supposedly full shelter/campsite as it appeared that way online.

Here's something else that's on you shoulders Duramax. Times around the Holidays are typically notoriously busy at many NPs. You are trying to get reservations on Thanksgiving weekend. You waited until when to apply for reservations?

Here are some possible solutions for you, now, and in the future: 1) ALWAYS have alternate campsites/shelters and itineraries in mind BEFORE you apply for a NP permit/reservations. You said, "...for people who are up for the weather." I suppose you were referring to yourself or your hiking party. Well, IF that is true than you should be prepared to camp regardless if hunkered down inside a shelter or not. It's my illusion that campsite reservations NOT at a shelter would be less competitive in the GSMNP back country this upcoming weekend. If you don't know it yet, I'm here to inform you that the GSMNP backcountry shelter reservations, particularly those on the AT, are competitive to snag. As the weather starts turning/getting into winter even more so.
2) make reservations through a LIVE REAL informed back Country Permitting Ranger at the Back Country Office. Late cancellations do occur and these are the people who usually know it and will factor that into current availability at shelters. BE NICE! Ask politely, not with an angry entitled attitude. Honey takes you further! Ask the Rangers what they would recommend as solutions! I know when I REALLY really want a spot at, say a shelter or camping area, like in GSMNP, I purposefully call a LIVE Ranger and ask IF there have been any cancellations at that shelter/campsite and what they might recommend. That alone has worked for me about three times in GSMNP securing a spot at a supposedly full shelter/campsite as it appeared that way online.3) SOMETIMES, in a few incidences I've met Back Country Hiking Rangers in the back country and they've amended my permit on the spot. They usually call in confirming shelter/campsite availability and even if they aren't able to amend my permit on the fly they usually have some suggestions. In virtually all my experiences with authorities in NPs I've received a mile of courtesy when I've offered an inch of politeness and respect! :sun

Mags

11-27-2013, 09:55

Despite all the faults of the Smokies permit system, I would LOVE it if other parks followed suit.

I usually (not this year..sigh), go to Utah in November. Be nice to line up my permit for Canyon Lands NP before hand without having to a) make sure I get to the ranger station in time the day before or B) wait until the office opens and cut into the short daylight hiking hours just so I can get a permit.

I can book a flight and line up a car rental from my laptop. Try to line up a permit for three days in a National Park? Not so much....except for the Smokies. :)

Traffic Jam

11-27-2013, 10:50

If my plans change, I call to cancel. It would be great if it can be done online but the same ones who don't bother to call probably aren't going to go online either, IMO. I've been at shelters where everyone who registered showed up, where noone who registered showed up, and where unregistered hikers showed up. Weather and ignorance being the primary factors. Sometimes plans change while on the trail and I know of only a few spots to get cell coverage so in some cases it would be impossible to call. Enforcement is also an issue. I've camped and stayed at shelters in the park numerous times and have NEVER seen a ridge runner or been asked to see my permit (not complaining, just observing).

sliderule

11-27-2013, 14:56

In the past, the NPS has indicated that they consider no-shows a positive, not a negative. Fewer users, less impact.

sliderule

11-27-2013, 14:57

If my plans change, I call to cancel.

Then what happens?

Traffic Jam

11-27-2013, 15:15

Then what happens?

I don't know. I assume they opened my spot but I never checked.

HooKooDooKu

11-27-2013, 15:57

Then what happens?
Any camp site spots no longer on the caller's itinerary (due to a change or cancellation) are returned to the pool of spots for others to possibly reserve.

Same thing used to happen with the old system. The only difference was that reserved spots were limited to "rationed campsites" (aka the popular spots), and you were required to cancel reservations you were not going to utilize. People who abused that policy (by either making more reservations than needed or not canceling reservations no longer needed) were subject to having their privileges to reserve spots at rationed campsites revoked. (Given that Rangers did/do not regularly check up on back country camp sites, there wasn't much of a way to enforce this except for the most egregious of offenders).

With the new system, ALL back country campsites are effectively "rationed campsites", and the cost of those reservations are what (in theory) will cut down on abuses of reserving more spots than you need.

If you cancel a reservation, you will not get a refund... but it is still considered by all the polite thing to do.

Ewker

11-27-2013, 17:49

true the fees you pay are non-refundable but you can make a change to your permit (one time only)

sliderule

11-27-2013, 19:34

Any camp site spots no longer on the caller's itinerary (due to a change or cancellation) are returned to the pool of spots for others to possibly reserve.

If that is the case, how is it that Dogwood is able to repeatedly negotiate special treatment by making a phone call? If the cancellations were actually reflected in the online system, a phone call would be neither necessary nor beneficial.

Duramax22

11-27-2013, 19:53

I called cancellations are not put back into the online calender and the lady said some rangers will look into cancellations for call in some wont.... luck of the draw i presume

BillyGr

11-27-2013, 21:47

HooKooDooKu

11-27-2013, 22:11

How about one thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned, as a way to get people to cancel reservations they don't need:

If you have a reservation and need to cancel it, you will get a refund (maybe not even a full refund - could be half or 3/4 or whatever), but ONLY if someone else reserves the spot.

This would be an incentive to make that call as soon as you can, since you'd have a better chance of getting someone else to take it, thus giving you something back, and also allow those looking for a last minute space a chance to find one.

Great idea... but for GSMNP web 1.0, they are trying to keep things simple... and given that they already use two different web sites (one to make the reservations, another to collect the fees), don't hold your breath.

madgoat

11-29-2013, 21:47

How about one thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned, as a way to get people to cancel reservations they don't need:

If you have a reservation and need to cancel it, you will get a refund (maybe not even a full refund - could be half or 3/4 or whatever), but ONLY if someone else reserves the spot.

This would be an incentive to make that call as soon as you can, since you'd have a better chance of getting someone else to take it, thus giving you something back, and also allow those looking for a last minute space a chance to find one.

[/tongue firmly planted in cheek]

Since my $4 per person per night fee goes toward paying for the reservations website.... I'm guessing that a feature like the one you suggest could be added after they up the fee to $5 per person per night...

[/returns tongue to normal position]

HooKooDooKu

11-29-2013, 22:03

Since my $4 per person per night fee goes toward paying for the reservations website...
I've been told (but would like to get some confirmation) that only $1 of the $4 goes to paying for the website and the park gets the other $3... and that they have used that money to hire additional personnel. I've also heard that the additional personnel have taken over jobs that used to be done by volunteers.

Sly

11-30-2013, 07:54

One state park I made reservations with had a cancelation policy where half my fees were lost and I had up to six months to make new reservations with the remaining fees.

MuddyWaters

12-04-2013, 00:20

If you dont like the GSMNP policies, you can forget about the Grand Canyon or Yosemite.

HooKooDooKu

12-04-2013, 10:18

If you dont like the GSMNP policies, you can forget about the Grand Canyon or Yosemite.
Not sure about Yosemite, but I've been thru the process for getting a permit for GC. It is definitely a bigger PITA than anything GSMNP has ever had.

For those that don't know, the basic process for getting a GC permit is to download a PDF application form, fill it out, and then fax it to them on the 1st of the month 4 months before you want to go. All applications received that day go into a lottery system where as many as possible get filled.

Where GC and GSMNP are similar is that both have a per person per night fee ($5/$4). Where they differ is that GC adds a $10 application fee and gives partial refunds for cancellations (in the form of a 'credit' towards future permits for a year, minus the $10 application fee).

Coffee

12-04-2013, 10:28

One big difference between both Grand Canyon and GSMNP and Yosemite and the other Sierra Nevada jurisdictions is that one is not restricted to a predefined itinerary in the Sierra. The Grand Canyon imposes restrictions on where one can stay on each night of a backcountry trip (either a specific campground or region). The same is true in GSMNP. In Yosemite and the rest of the Sierra Nevada, they ask for an itinerary but one can deviate from that itinerary without penalty. Basically, once you are in the backcountry, you can travel as you please. I find that flexibility to be very attractive and I took advantage of the flexibility to alter my plans on the JMT this year as I saw fit. I found hiking in Grand Canyon more constraining in terms of having to be at a specific campsite each night even if I wanted to make impromptu changes along the way. I hope the Sierra Nevada never goes the way of the Grand Canyon and GSMNP in terms of imposing strict itineraries where one must be in a specific spot each night. Would totally change the experience IMO.

Nyte

12-04-2013, 12:09

All of this sounds way too controlling for my comfort. "Use this open space, set aside for the public, but you must do it how and when we say it's okay." I am all for restricting certain activities that damage the wilderness, i.e. motorized vehicles, logging, and anything destructive, but by requiring set plans of where and when to be, advance permitting, costs on top of taxes that (should be) paying for the management, and that's even IF you get a permit...

To me it seems another example of the US trying to homogenize everyone into having to live a working life the way that those in charge of things profit from.

I understand filling out a registry to use back country areas, so they have an idea of how much use is happening, and in the event something happens and they need to search an area in the event of a disaster.

I am all for supporting the parks and forests as well, but I feel there are widespread flaws in the overall governmental spending, and money is going to things that should be spent on things like parks and forests.

It just all feels like it's moving to a "you have to be above this income line to use public resources."

MuddyWaters

12-05-2013, 00:13

Nyte

12-05-2013, 08:44

Well, the crux of the problem is that smart leaders set aside natural places many years ago to protect for public use.

And our population has increased by a factor of 10, but we havent had any more land set aside, or any smart leaders for that matter.

We really need to consider re-claiming much private lands and restoring them to wilderness in many areas today, if future people are to have any access at all. Think what it will be like in another 100 yrs with 10x the people already.

You raise a good point, MW. Of course, if a shift in thought and education could be achieved, and people in general were more conscientious of increasing the population, perhaps the massive overpopulation could be reversed. Pipe dream, I know, but it seems sad to me that in many areas of the world, a population of large predators that begins to "bother" towns and farms are killed without a second thought in the name of over population, yet no thought is given to checking the out of control population of humanity...

bigcranky

12-05-2013, 12:15

During my 2011 thru a ridgerunner in GSMNP told me that typically only 40% of those with reservations actually show up.

I've heard the same thing. It's too bad, really, since as the OP points out, those spots could have potentially gone to someone who would use them at the last minute.

gollwoods

12-09-2013, 16:25

10X people? I'd be willing to bet .10X

ATL Backpacker

12-10-2013, 10:55

I've been told (but would like to get some confirmation) that only $1 of the $4 goes to paying for the website and the park gets the other $3... and that they have used that money to hire additional personnel. I've also heard that the additional personnel have taken over jobs that used to be done by volunteers.

Its a good question. When first announced NPS said the fee would go toward extra ranger presence, campsite maintenance etc. then later, several articles quoted NPS as saying 100% of the funds collected would toward the online reservation system and there would be no new revenue generated as a result of the fee. Now their communication goes back to the original line of extra rangers, more reservation staff, etc. I know over the summer they were touting figures of how much trash had been hauled out of the backcountry sites...and citing the fees collected as how that was funded.

madgoat

12-11-2013, 10:14

ATL Backpacker

12-12-2013, 14:03

Thanks ATL Backpacker and HooKooDooKu. I was under the impression that the fee was only to pay for the website based on comments made by the park around the time the fee was instituted. I am happy to hear that they are using part of our fees for increased ranger presence in the backcountry.

Yes they did say 100% to pay for the website at one time. It was one of a few story-changes they gave when trying to drum up support for the fee.

I will say this... when I email feedback about backcountry issues they always respond quickly and appear to take action. Maybe the fees collected are helping to facilitate that

madgoat

12-13-2013, 10:19

I was down around Fontana in October and heard rumor that there was a ranger at campsite 90 checking backcountry permits. I didn't see the ranger when we got there though, but we only stopped in for a quick lunch before continuing up Eagle Creek Trail.

That said, in the many years I have been backpacking in the Smokies, I have only had a ranger ask for my permit on one occasion. It was within a half mile of the Cades Cove Campground. Yeah, I have seen other rangers in the backcountry, but they did not ask me for a permit. The few other times I have seen rangers in the backcountry, they were counting mice or some other such biological study.

Mr. Bumpy

12-13-2013, 10:51

Biggest fault in gsmnp reservation system?
Its existence.

Mags

12-13-2013, 12:32

Biggest fault in gsmnp reservation system?

Its existence.

You guys are spoiled. I said it before (on this thread !) WHY CAN'T WE HAVE THIS IN PLACE IN OTHER NP UNITS???

Sure. You can protest the fee. But being able to get a backcountry permit online is how it should be. :)

Dogwood

12-13-2013, 19:23

Stepped away from this thread hoping when I returned to it I would notice more forward progress. I was really hoping, with the helpful beta that was shared to assist getting NP hiking permits more often, we would go in that direction. We're still into complaining though.

When campsite reservations, including GSMNP shelter reservations, are cancelled the NPS, YES at GSMNP too, make these newly available spots available to others getting campsite/hiking permits. Does it happen immediately through an online reservation system I don't know BUT WITH A PH CALL YOU CAN ASK IF ANY LATE CANCELLATIONS HAVE OCURRED. Doing this has snagged me spots that were supposedly full when I looked online to make reservations. Maybe, not perfect for all people under all situations but we don't live in that kind of world. We can bitch all we want or we can find ways to work within the system. Learning to work within NP reservation systems(and learning some ways in which to approach getting my hiking permits) gets me further than expecting a "perfect" reservation system.

Being NICE and BEING INFORMED AS I CAN ABOUT SNAGGING HIKING PERMITS when speaking to NP Back Country Hiking Permit Offices goes a LONG WAY.

Traffic Jam

12-14-2013, 10:38

Dogwood, good idea to call even if a shelter is booked. I'll do this next time. I find the people staffing the phones very helpful and have gotten a lot of valuable advice about routes, parking, and even what kind of rope is best. When I was a new hiker, they gave me a lot of "what if" advice and reassurance.

sliderule

12-16-2013, 22:40

Learning to work within NP reservation systems(and learning some ways in which to approach getting my hiking permits) gets me further than expecting a "perfect" reservation system.

Seems to me that your approach constitutes working outside "the system" rather than within it. Considering that one must now obtain a permit online, how, exactly, do you obtain a permit from a telephone call? (Or is a "PH call" something else, entirely?)

HooKooDooKu

12-17-2013, 00:40

...how, exactly, do you obtain a permit from a telephone call? (Or is a "PH call" something else, entirely?)
I don't know how much latitude the rangers, but they do have the ability to make adjustments to your permit and then email you a PDF copy of your permit.

I've had to have them email me the permit when glitches in the system wouldn't allow me to down load the permit.

"Officially", you are allowed one change to your permit... and while I'm not 100% sure, I think the only way to currently make a change is to call the rangers and have them do it. I've also been allowed to make more than just one change (but I don't know to what extent that was allowed because at least one of the changes was due to GSMNP calling me and leaving me a message warning about my itinerary including trails with weather warnings... i.e. potential flooded creeks).

Traffic Jam

12-17-2013, 08:07

The backcountry office can make your reservation and verbally give you the permit number. They have done this for me when my computer was down.

liteweight

01-19-2014, 23:35

I haven't posted a lot on the site but after reading this post I thought I would share the below link with you. I'm not trying to debate the new reservation system within whiteblaze, its simply to let those interested that the fight against the fee continues. Our love for the GSMNP is undeniable regardless of what side your on. We have gained a lot of traction and support over the last several months. There are many things wrong with the current system, one being putting this unnecessary fee on the back of backpackers. Happy hiking and help us fight against this tax.
http://southernforestwatch.org/
FrankW

sliderule

01-23-2014, 14:14

The backcountry office can make your reservation and verbally give you the permit number.

That sounds familiar. Isn't that how things worked for about thirty years before the current "system" was implemented? Minus the fee, off course.

HooKooDooKu

01-23-2014, 15:46

That sounds familiar. Isn't that how things worked for about thirty years before the current "system" was implemented? Minus the fee, off course.
The phone system is their backup plan... like Traffic Jam stated, she did this over the phone while her computer was down.

Plus, they know they've had some bumps along the way trying to implement the new system. So I'm sure that for the first year, they've been a little more lenient. As the system gets stable, I don't know how much they will being to pull back from making exceptions.

Dogwood

01-23-2014, 16:31

That sounds familiar. Isn't that how things worked for about thirty years before the current "system" was implemented? Minus the fee, off course.

New or increased fees is another code word for tax hike? I don't like fees either(many of them are unnecessary from my perspective too) but that's not the primary issue of the thread. Seems to me the thread is about using the GSMNP system most effectively to get the reservations we want. I would think that begins by understanding the current system. IMHO, GSMNP has provided several options for obtaining reservations which is overall an expansion of previous options WHILE ALSO ALLOWING THE NPS to better manage the National Park's resources FOR EVERYONE.

Have you looked at it from the perspective that the new backcountry reservation system allows for better management of the campsites, lean-tos, and the park overall for what is already the busiest NP in the U.S. which potentially makes every GSMNP visitor's experience a better one? Have you considered the usage in the park, and demands upon it, have been increasing?

You have made many complaints. Perhaps, you can offer some solutions on getting the backcountry hiking permits/reservations that we as outdoors people want and, perhaps, offer to the GSMNP NPS ways to improve their current system. BUT, FIRST, before you do that might it be wise to better understand the current reservation system? Read on if you seek solutions in getting backcountry permits!

You said this: "Seems to me that your approach constitutes working outside "the system" rather than within it. Considering that one must now obtain a permit online, how, exactly, do you obtain a permit from a telephone call? (Or is a "PH call" something else, entirely?)"

First, you are implying that I did something outside the system in a shady fashion. I did Not! You also did not accurately portray what I previously said. I said I obtain information by making a phone call. The GSMNP website EVEN TELLS backcountry permit seekers to call IF they have questions. Go back and carefully read what I said. I thought I was clearly communicating. I thought the GSMNP NPS site was clear about this as well. Also, the GSMNP Back Country Office, whether you get their recording or speak in person to a Back Country Office Ranger, communicates this. I've also read this info, with the appropriate ph numbers to call, in many GSMNP related publications.

Second, look at what I highlighted that you said. While it is accurate that the old system of walking up to a GSMNP TH and self registering for backcountry campsites/AT lean-tos obtaining a paper permit that way has been scrapped. IMHO, that system was a poor way for the NPS to effectively manage the AT lean tos and, in many respects, the rest of the NP anyhow and certainly so moving forward into the future with an increasing number of visitors. While YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY CORRECT IN SAYING PAPER PERMITS don't magically materialize in your hand through a ph call, IT IS NOT TOTALLY ACCURATE to say that you must in all situations obtain a permit on line. For example, although this may not appeal or be convenient to all GSMNP visitors, you can still obtain backcountry campsite/lean to reservations AND OBTAIN YOUR PERMIT in your hand on a walk in basis at several places in GSMNP. *YOU CAN also get campsite backcountry reservations through a ph call! That doesn't get your paper permit in hand but read on! For AT hikers(and I think others), GSMNP, with the cooperation of other GSMNP/AT supporters, allow you to get your GSMNP back country hiking permits at: NOC/Fontana Lodge(for example if you're an AT NOBOer or entering GSMNP from those directions), and at Bluff Mt Outfitters in Hot Springs(for AT SOBOers or others entering GSMNP from that direction). At all these places you can make GSMNP backcountry AT reservations(and I think for anyone hiking in GSMNP, but give any of those places or GSMNP a call to check up on that) via website OR a ph call and then have them Email you the permit on the spot through on site computers which you can then print out. ALL of those places allow you to print the permit out on the spot.

It's not so hard to get a permit as you make it sound! Seems to me, GSMNP and the NPS have provided several viable ways to obtain backcountry campsite/lean to reservations and obtaining your paper permit. As Mags said, the GSMNP back country reservation permit system sure beats some, I too, have experienced in other NPs.

As HKDK said the ph system is their back up plan. Imagine if every GSMNP back country hiker ONLY had walk in and ph permitting/reservation options?

Hill Ape

01-23-2014, 16:50

of all the taxes i'm forced to pay, fees that directly support the operations of national parks is the least of my concern and highest on my list of taxes well spent

max patch

01-23-2014, 16:57

I suspect that anyone who complains about the online permit system never used the old system which for most meant making a phone call that was never answered on the first attempt.

lemon b

01-23-2014, 18:56

I've had it with GSNMP if I do another NB. Thinking of doing the BMT than picking up the AT on the otherside.

RockDoc

01-23-2014, 18:58

from the US Geological Survey site:

"Rocks in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park moved westward on the Great Smoky Mountain fault."

Sorry, you asked about the biggest fault. I couldn't resist.
RockDoc.

HooKooDooKu

01-23-2014, 19:14

Have you looked at it from the perspective that the new backcountry reservation system allows for better management of the campsites, lean-tos...

...While it is accurate that the old system of walking up to a GSMNP TH and self registering for backcountry campsites/AT lean-tos obtaining a paper permit that way has been scrapped. IMHO, that system was a poor way for the NPS to effectively manage the AT lean tos...

I'm afraid I can not agree with those characterizations... I guess because I don't see how the new system is a better system for the NPS to manage the AT lean tos and camp sites.

First of all, your statements seem to imply that under the old system, you could camp in AT lean tos and popular camp sites (a.k.a. rationed sites) thru self-registering. But that was not the case. If you were going to stay at a rationed site, you had to call the back country office and make a reservation. If all the reservations for a particular site were taken, then you couldn't camp at that spot that night. The only times you could self-register is if all your camp sites were 'unpopular' camp sites (a.k.a. unrationed sites). When it comes to managing the unrationed sites, the NPS just need to know how much they are getting utilized. But collecting the self-registration forms, they were accomplishing that just fine.

So at its most simplistic, the only thing the new system did was...
1. Treat ALL campsites as rationed sites.
2. Replace a park ranger making reservations over the telephone with an online system.
3. Start collecting back-country camping fees.

I don't see how those changes allow the NPS to "effectively manage the AT lean tos {and camp sites}" any better than the old system.

Of course the process is different for thru hikers. But again, at its most simplistic, the only thing the new system did was...
1. Replace a self-registry process done on paper with a self-registry process done ahead-of-time online.
2. Start collecting fees from thru-hikers.

Otherwise, the new system doesn't change anything in controlling or managing the number of people at AT lean tos.

HooKooDooKu

01-23-2014, 19:20

I've had it with GSNMP if I do another NB. Thinking of doing the BMT than picking up the AT on the otherside.
You do know the BMT goes through the GSMNP too... and to do the BMT thru the GSMNP, you've got to get a 'General Backpacker' permit. That means you have to get a reservation for each camp site for each particular night you plan on staying on the BMT while in the GSMNP.

Mags

01-23-2014, 19:29

I suspect that anyone who complains about the online permit system never used the old system which for most meant making a phone call that was never answered on the first attempt.

Exactly! Or have to plan your drives so that you hit the backcountry office at the right time.

aficion

01-23-2014, 20:14

New or increased fees is another code word for tax hike? I don't like fees either(many of them are unnecessary from my perspective too) but that's not the primary issue of the thread. Seems to me the thread is about using the GSMNP system most effectively to get the reservations we want. I would think that begins by understanding the current system. IMHO, GSMNP has provided several options for obtaining reservations which is overall an expansion of previous options WHILE ALSO ALLOWING THE NPS to better manage the National Park's resources FOR EVERYONE.

Have you looked at it from the perspective that the new backcountry reservation system allows for better management of the campsites, lean-tos, and the park overall for what is already the busiest NP in the U.S. which potentially makes every GSMNP visitor's experience a better one? Have you considered the usage in the park, and demands upon it, have been increasing?

You have made many complaints. Perhaps, you can offer some solutions on getting the backcountry hiking permits/reservations that we as outdoors people want and, perhaps, offer to the GSMNP NPS ways to improve their current system. BUT, FIRST, before you do that might it be wise to better understand the current reservation system? Read on if you seek solutions in getting backcountry permits!

You said this: "Seems to me that your approach constitutes working outside "the system" rather than within it. Considering that one must now obtain a permit online, how, exactly, do you obtain a permit from a telephone call? (Or is a "PH call" something else, entirely?)"

First, you are implying that I did something outside the system in a shady fashion. I did Not! You also did not accurately portray what I previously said. I said I obtain information by making a phone call. The GSMNP website EVEN TELLS backcountry permit seekers to call IF they have questions. Go back and carefully read what I said. I thought I was clearly communicating. I thought the GSMNP NPS site was clear about this as well. Also, the GSMNP Back Country Office, whether you get their recording or speak in person to a Back Country Office Ranger, communicates this. I've also read this info, with the appropriate ph numbers to call, in many GSMNP related publications.

Second, look at what I highlighted that you said. While it is accurate that the old system of walking up to a GSMNP TH and self registering for backcountry campsites/AT lean-tos obtaining a paper permit that way has been scrapped. IMHO, that system was a poor way for the NPS to effectively manage the AT lean tos and, in many respects, the rest of the NP anyhow and certainly so moving forward into the future with an increasing number of visitors. While YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY CORRECT IN SAYING PAPER PERMITS don't magically materialize in your hand through a ph call, IT IS NOT TOTALLY ACCURATE to say that you must in all situations obtain a permit on line. For example, although this may not appeal or be convenient to all GSMNP visitors, you can still obtain backcountry campsite/lean to reservations AND OBTAIN YOUR PERMIT in your hand on a walk in basis at several places in GSMNP. *YOU CAN also get campsite backcountry reservations through a ph call! That doesn't get your paper permit in hand but read on! For AT hikers(and I think others), GSMNP, with the cooperation of other GSMNP/AT supporters, allow you to get your GSMNP back country hiking permits at: NOC/Fontana Lodge(for example if you're an AT NOBOer or entering GSMNP from those directions), and at Bluff Mt Outfitters in Hot Springs(for AT SOBOers or others entering GSMNP from that direction). At all these places you can make GSMNP backcountry AT reservations(and I think for anyone hiking in GSMNP, but give any of those places or GSMNP a call to check up on that) via website OR a ph call and then have them Email you the permit on the spot through on site computers which you can then print out. ALL of those places allow you to print the permit out on the spot.

It's not so hard to get a permit as you make it sound! Seems to me, GSMNP and the NPS have provided several viable ways to obtain backcountry campsite/lean to reservations and obtaining your paper permit. As Mags said, the GSMNP back country reservation permit system sure beats some, I too, have experienced in other NPs.

As HKDK said the ph system is their back up plan. Imagine if every GSMNP back country hiker ONLY had walk in and ph permitting/reservation options?

Your username should be Long Wind. LW......its just talkin.

Toon

01-23-2014, 21:53

They should put computer kiosk at both sides with online entry that shows you available space and distance. It could show an overview of the hike. Able to take cash or card.

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk

liteweight

01-23-2014, 22:28

of all the taxes i'm forced to pay, fees that directly support the operations of national parks is the least of my concern and highest on my list of taxes well spent

Exactly how does it support the operation of the park? Btw, I'm in the backcountry once a month (probably less then many of you) and never had a problem with the old system. It's hard to get past the superintendent changing the reason for the fee about three times. Do genuine backpackers really believe this has helped the backcountry? I would love to hear specific examples.

Dogwood

01-24-2014, 00:26

Your username should be Long Wind. LW......its just talkin.

That's why I try to break up the Long Winds with Bold Type, CAPITALIZATION, underlining, and EMPHATIC EXCLAMATION PTS!!! :) If we were communicating in person or in a live in person group I/WE would not be communicating through one long post.

HooKooDooKu

01-24-2014, 00:43

Exactly how does it support the operation of the park? Btw, I'm in the backcountry once a month (probably less then many of you) and never had a problem with the old system. It's hard to get past the superintendent changing the reason for the fee about three times. Do genuine backpackers really believe this has helped the backcountry? I would love to hear specific examples.
From what I've been told by a park ranger, $1 of each $4 goes to the company that runs the website. The other $3 is returned to the park. This money has supposedly been used to hire additional rangers (something like 5) to replace volunteers that used to work the backcountry office.

So if my understanding is correct, then it sounds like the fees I'm paying support a ranger staff I no longer need because of the website.

rocketsocks

01-24-2014, 01:02

That's why I try to break up the Long Winds with Bold Type, CAPITALIZATION, underlining, and EMPHATIC EXCLAMATION PTS!!! :) If we were communicating in person or in a live in person group I/WE would not be communicating through one long post.
I always thought your postings were divided between several because your devise wouldn't allow for longer ones...keep em coming, I read almost everything you write...almost. :D

ATL Backpacker

01-24-2014, 11:48

From what I've been told by a park ranger, $1 of each $4 goes to the company that runs the website. The other $3 is returned to the park. This money has supposedly been used to hire additional rangers (something like 5) to replace volunteers that used to work the backcountry office.

So if my understanding is correct, then it sounds like the fees I'm paying support a ranger staff I no longer need because of the website.

I'd like to think that $3 is being used for additional rangers, especially 5. Does anyone know actual backcountry usage numbers?

No idea what it costs to hire/pay a ranger, but assume it's 65K per year (salary benefits, training, etc). 65K * 5 rangers = $325K. Divide that by $3 and that comes to 108,000 reservations units (each reservation unit being 1 person, 1 night)

My suspicion is that it might fund something but there are not enough BC users to fund significant incremental ranger presence. And GSMNP backcountry users are only declining, according to NPS data

TNhiker

01-24-2014, 14:17

I'd like to think that $3 is being used for additional rangers, especially 5. Does anyone know actual backcountry usage numbers?

No idea what it costs to hire/pay a ranger, but assume it's 65K per year (salary benefits, training, etc). 65K * 5 rangers = $325K. Divide that by $3 and that comes to 108,000 reservations units (each reservation unit being 1 person, 1 night)

My suspicion is that it might fund something but there are not enough BC users to fund significant incremental ranger presence. And GSMNP backcountry users are only declining, according to NPS data

if you say the backcountry users are declining, can you provide the data?

and the 100,000 users per year is what i have seen for past numbers........

sliderule

01-25-2014, 11:47

While YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY CORRECT IN SAYING PAPER PERMITS don't magically materialize in your hand through a ph call, IT IS NOT TOTALLY ACCURATE to say that you must in all situations obtain a permit on line. For example, although this may not appeal or be convenient to all GSMNP visitors, you can still obtain backcountry campsite/lean to reservations AND OBTAIN YOUR PERMIT in your hand on a walk in basis at several places in GSMNP. *YOU CAN also get campsite backcountry reservations through a ph call! That doesn't get your paper permit in hand but read on! For AT hikers(and I think others), GSMNP, with the cooperation of other GSMNP/AT supporters, allow you to get your GSMNP back country hiking permits at: NOC/Fontana Lodge(for example if you're an AT NOBOer or entering GSMNP from those directions), and at Bluff Mt Outfitters in Hot Springs(for AT SOBOers or others entering GSMNP from that direction). At all these places you can make GSMNP backcountry AT reservations(and I think for anyone hiking in GSMNP, but give any of those places or GSMNP a call to check up on that) via website OR a ph call and then have them Email you the permit on the spot through on site computers which you can then print out. ALL of those places allow you to print the permit out on the spot.

While you may realize it, every ad hoc workaround solution that you mention is a de facto condemnation of the current "system."

Fact is, for someone not equipped with a printer and an internet connection, obtaining a permit is far more difficult that it was under the previous system.

max patch

01-25-2014, 11:55

Fact is, for someone not equipped with a printer and an internet connection, obtaining a permit is far more difficult that it was under the previous system.

For thru hikers, yes, you are correct.

For everyone else - the great majority - for the 1 person in a hundred (thousand?) who doesn't own a computer its easier and quicker to drive to the library than to try and navigate that phone system that was never answered.

sliderule

01-25-2014, 11:58

So if my understanding is correct, then it sounds like the fees I'm paying support a ranger staff I no longer need because of the website.

That's typical of so many government programs. At a Corps of Engineers lake near where I live, the Sierra Club found that the gov't was spending more to administer a dock fee program than they collected in fees.

max patch

01-25-2014, 12:00

I think the fact that thru hikers do not have to schedule their daily itinerary like everyone else shows a remarkable amount of common sense by the bureaucrats in charge. Thru hikers have no reason to bitch and moan about anything.

(BM thru hikers are a different story)

sliderule

01-25-2014, 12:04

For thru hikers, yes, you are correct.

For everyone else - the great majority - for the 1 person in a hundred (thousand?) who doesn't own a computer its easier and quicker to drive to the library than to try and navigate that phone system that was never answered.

The phone not being answered was a management problem , not a "system" problem. And it would not surprise me a bit if it was not an intentional problem created to support the proposed solution of online reservations.

Dogwood

01-25-2014, 16:48

I genuinely don't see it as a condemnation of the system. I approach getting my GSMNP permits with a willingness to understand the system, the motives behind it, and how it operates so I can WORK WITH IT rather than condemning it. This approach gets me further than condemning it. I notice no willingness on your part to do that - more complaints yet no solutions other than going back to the way things used to be.

However, I absolutely do get your valid point about not having your own printer and computer. I usually don't have one with me either other than when I'm actively working. But it's not like computers and printers are a rare thing in American society. When hiking/traveling and I don't have my own computer I use Libraries for printer/computer access. It's not as hard as you make it sound getting your paper permit printed out. Far more difficult? Isn't that a gross exaggeration for the vast majority of GSMNP hikers? Computers are hear to stay. They are part of our society. Things change. Roll with the changes or the changes can roll over you and leave you behind. STOP magnifying an aspect of the GSMNP reservation system into a huge problem and IT WILL BECOME LESS OF A PROBLEM. You might even begin to see it more as an answer as a solution rather than a problem.

The phone not being answered was a management problem , not a "system" problem. And it would not surprise me a bit if it was not an intentional problem created to support the proposed solution of online reservations.

So, you honestly don't think it has anything to do with the the sheer quantity of people calling overwhelming the system and the projected increase of callers going into the near future? :confused: You seem bitterly untrustful of any type of gov't intervention or supervision. I too have some of that healthy skeptical mistrust in me regarding gov't but I don't look at everything gov't does as bad or a conspiracy. Ever hear the song line by Bobby Fuller 'I fought the law and the law one?' Defiantly, going down that path doesn't always work out well. You must listen to conspiracy theorist Alex Jones alot.

As far as the current permit reservation system for thru-hikers I don't see it as overly burdensome to obtain reservations AND PAPER PERMITS as they hike right through NOC, and often go into Fontana Village for resupplies, going NOBO and go right by Bluff Mt Outfitters in hot Springs going SOBO. This is rather convenient for thru-hikers IMHO.

sliderule

01-25-2014, 20:04

But it's not like computers and printers are a rare thing in American society.Computers are hear to stay. They are part of our society. Things change. Roll with the changes or the changes can roll over you and leave you behind.

Fact: the NPS requirement for a printed, paper copy of a permit fails to embrace current technology.

So, you honestly don't think it has anything to do with the the sheer quantity of people calling overwhelming the system and the projected increase of callers going into the near future? :confused:

The total nightly capacity of the entire GRSM backcountry is less than that of many hotels. Now, how many hotels have done away with telephone reservations because of "the sheer quantity of people calling overwhelming the system?" And how many require a printed copy of your reservation confirmation?

liteweight

01-26-2014, 00:54

HooKooDooKu

01-26-2014, 03:12

It has happened more than once. Sleeping soundly in your sleeping bag and your awaken by a backcountry ranger asking to see permits. Check the video out.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr_zcY1JB9o
Frankw

To date, I've never encountered a park ranger in the back country (save for around LeConte Lodge) much less every been awoken by one. Never talked to anyone in person that ever said they had either. However, my GSMNP trips usually do not include the shelters along the AT (I'm sure they get visited a little more frequently).

BTW: For those that haven't seen this video already... it appears to be propaganda put together by one of the groups that is fighting the permit fees.

rocketsocks

01-26-2014, 06:19

To date, I've never encountered a park ranger in the back country (save for around LeConte Lodge) much less every been awoken by one. Never talked to anyone in person that ever said they had either. However, my GSMNP trips usually do not include the shelters along the AT (I'm sure they get visited a little more frequently).

BTW: For those that haven't seen this video already... it appears to be propaganda put together by one of the groups that is fighting the permit fees.It do beg da question dough...where does the money go?

liteweight

01-26-2014, 19:12

It do beg da question dough...where does the money go?

Great question! BTW Southern Forest Watch is suing the national park, a group and its supporters that decided to stand up for what they believe in. Sure, there are folks that will disagree. We all want to believe that park mgmt loves the park as much as all of us, it's simply not true. One reason the park gave for the fee was environmental protection, do backpackers or horses cause more damage to trails? Yet, horse riders pay nothing. Anyway, the fight continues not just for those that love the GSMNP now, but for generations to come.
http://southernforestwatch.org/
FrankW

Dogwood

01-26-2014, 19:54

Yet, horse riders pay nothing. Not true! I'm still waiting for ANYONE to describe an alternative cost effective manageable GSMNP reservation system that addresses the current needs of the NPS overseeing GSMNP and into the near future. I hear a lot about what various folks don't want. How about offering something constructive by telling us what you do want TAKING INTO CONTEXT what GSMNP MNGMT needs to do? Please, tell me you have something better to offer us and GSMNP in regards to a reservation system than the reservation system of the local Motel 6!

aficion

01-26-2014, 20:16

sliderule

01-26-2014, 20:47

I'm still waiting for ANYONE to describe an alternative cost effective manageable GSMNP reservation system that addresses the current needs of the NPS overseeing GSMNP and into the near future. I hear a lot about what various folks don't want.

Evidently, you failed to read the sign on the door when you entered this discussion.

Dogwood

01-26-2014, 21:24

Isn't that so convenient for those that simply want to complain complain complain.

Dogwood

01-26-2014, 21:25

Best solution would be to get rid of the permit system altogether.

What might be the negatives in doing that? Here's a chance to complain.

Dogwood

01-26-2014, 21:27

It has happened more than once. Sleeping soundly in your sleeping bag and your awaken by a backcountry ranger asking to see permits. Check the video out.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr_zcY1JB9o
Frankw
Who's the woman narrating this obviously anti fee vid? I would like to discuss this with her over dinner and a bottle of vino.

aficion

01-26-2014, 21:30

What might be the negatives in doing that? Here's a chance to complain.

MMMmmm. Some IT guys and Rangers would be out of a job.:cool:

HooKooDooKu

01-26-2014, 21:32

It do beg da question dough...where does the money go?
I've previously stated that that 25% of the money goes to the company that develops/maintains the web site, the rest is returned to the Park where additional Park Rangers have been hired. That's what I was informed by a park ranger I had the opportunity to chat with, and I've not heard anyone else say anything different.

I will admit, that I so far have not noticed any difference in the back country since the fees were introduced... but then again I'm a half day's drive from GSMNP and don't get to hike it very often.

HooKooDooKu

01-26-2014, 21:42

Best solution would be to get rid of the permit system altogether.
I would beg to differ...

If there were no permit system in place, certain parts of the park would quickly get over used.

And even if you didn't care about protecting the natural resources of the park, an entirely different host of problems would appear when 50 people show up at LeConte shelter on the weekend.

After all, back went the permit system was free to the public, you figure there was some sort of reason why they instituted a permit system to begin with.

Now I'll admit, I'm no lover of the new permit system. Ever since it was introduced... I've sort of railed at the fact that it can cost more money for a family to camp in the undeveloped back country than it is to camp at the developed front country camp sites. But on the flip side, it is definitely worth paying SOMETHING for the convenience of obtaining permits 24/7 over the internet (a MUCH better system than making reservations by phone during limited hours... assuming there is someone there to answer the phone).

liteweight

01-26-2014, 21:46

Wise Old Owl

01-26-2014, 21:53

I met a few hikers at GSMNP shelters around 3 weeks ago that did not have permits, they claimed ignorance on the entire reservation system. There were no more than 4 people staying at each shelter, one nite I was by myself... it was mid-week though. A couple LSU students I met at Icewater Springs shelter had driven all night from Baton Rouge, LA to Newfound Gap... intended to hike the Boulevard and stay at Mt Le Conte lodge ... and they had no reservations, don't know how that worked out for them. I would guess this sort of thing happens quite a bit in that park.

Thanks for the tip....I love the internet.

Despite all the faults of the Smokies permit system, I would LOVE it if other parks followed suit.

I usually (not this year..sigh), go to Utah in November. Be nice to line up my permit for Canyon Lands NP before hand without having to a) make sure I get to the ranger station in time the day before or B) wait until the office opens and cut into the short daylight hiking hours just so I can get a permit.

I can book a flight and line up a car rental from my laptop. Try to line up a permit for three days in a National Park? Not so much....except for the Smokies. :)

You guys are spoiled. I said it before (on this thread !) WHY CAN'T WE HAVE THIS IN PLACE IN OTHER NP UNITS???
Sure. You can protest the fee. But being able to get a backcountry permit online is how it should be. :)

No we aren't - as a group we are clear headed - feel good policies are misguided. I suggest, do we need the system in the first place? - its been first come first served for years... Mags sometimes you hit a home run - this isn't one of them. I pay attention to your posts as you are in a place I really admire - I have fond memories of the back country where you live...I hiked, climbed etc a long time ago... in one of your posts as a group we discovered there was a ban on TYPES of stoves a few years back.OMG Which book for dummies do we need to buy this year for regulations to go into the back country? I am confident in my skills as well as yours. Lets agree on this HYOH & ignore the noise. The visitor parking fee would have brought in more $$$ provided more services.. No need for your laptop just backpack and have fun.

All of this sounds way too controlling for my comfort. "Use this open space, set aside for the public, but you must do it how and when we say it's okay." I am all for restricting certain activities that damage the wilderness, i.e. motorized vehicles, logging, and anything destructive, but by requiring set plans of where and when to be, advance permitting, costs on top of taxes that (should be) paying for the management, and that's even IF you get a permit...

I understand filling out a registry to use back country areas, so they have an idea of how much use is happening, and in the event something happens and they need to search an area in the event of a disaster.

I am all for supporting the parks and forests as well, but I feel there are widespread flaws in the overall governmental spending, and money is going to things that should be spent on things like parks and forests.

It just all feels like it's moving to a "you have to be above this income line to use public resources."

Its a good question. When first announced NPS said the fee would go toward extra ranger presence, campsite maintenance etc. then later, several articles quoted NPS as saying 100% of the funds collected would toward the online reservation system and there would be no new revenue generated as a result of the fee. Now their communication goes back to the original line of extra rangers, more reservation staff, etc. I know over the summer they were touting figures of how much trash had been hauled out of the backcountry sites...and citing the fees collected as how that was funded.

clearly you see the "wag the dog."

Biggest fault in gsmnp reservation system?

Its existence.

+1 I agree. No system is perfect - their ideas of minimizing impact are plain off the rocker... Want to minimize impact? - get rid of the shelters. Use a system adopted where other states erase the multiple campsites - hide them and make new ones well off trail and not on ridges. Every ten years move them again.

I'm afraid I can not agree with those characterizations... I guess because I don't see how the new system is a better system for the NPS to manage the AT lean tos and camp sites.

First of all, your statements seem to imply that under the old system, you could camp in AT lean tos and popular camp sites (a.k.a. rationed sites) thru self-registering. But that was not the case. If you were going to stay at a rationed site, you had to call the back country office and make a reservation. If all the reservations for a particular site were taken, then you couldn't camp at that spot that night. The only times you could self-register is if all your camp sites were 'unpopular' camp sites (a.k.a. unrationed sites). When it comes to managing the unrationed sites, the NPS just need to know how much they are getting utilized. But collecting the self-registration forms, they were accomplishing that just fine.

So at its most simplistic, the only thing the new system did was...
1. Treat ALL campsites as rationed sites.
2. Replace a park ranger making reservations over the telephone with an online system.
3. Start collecting back-country camping fees.

I don't see how those changes allow the NPS to "effectively manage the AT lean tos {and camp sites}" any better than the old system.

Of course the process is different for thru hikers. But again, at its most simplistic, the only thing the new system did was...
1. Replace a self-registry process done on paper with a self-registry process done ahead-of-time online.
2. Start collecting fees from thru-hikers.

Otherwise, the new system doesn't change anything in controlling or managing the number of people at AT lean tos.

This is all about control - and its a slap in the face for thru hikers and section hikers, You nailed it - its about loosing freedom - fines and higher rates in the future. Th money will be diverted as it has been in the past, to other social programs. The NPS will not benefit from the proceeds. Lots of examples here in history, and personal experience when talking with the well grounded folks like the rangers.

For thru hikers, yes, you are correct.

For everyone else - the great majority - for the 1 person in a hundred (thousand?) who doesn't own a computer its easier and quicker to drive to the library than to try and navigate that phone system that was never answered.

That's typical of so many government programs. At a Corps of Engineers lake near where I live, the Sierra Club found that the gov't was spending more to administer a dock fee program than they collected in fees.

Sliderule local - state - nat... name one branch that does make a profit to justify their existence?... To be honest loads of folk do not have a computer. Many are off grid - others are in the backwoods of Appalachia some are in Alaska... How do we include folks? I suspect more than millions are not on a computer in the USA. In fact NY times "But tens of millions of people are still on the sidelines of the digital revolution."Seventy-six percent of white American households use the Internet, compared with 57 percent of African-American households, according to the “Exploring the Digital Nation (http://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/exploring_the_digital_nation_-_americas_emerging_online_experience.pdf),” a Commerce Department report released this summer and based on 2011 data.

Yet, horse riders pay nothing. Not true! I'm still waiting for ANYONE to describe an alternative cost effective manageable GSMNP reservation system that addresses the current needs of the NPS overseeing GSMNP and into the near future. I hear a lot about what various folks don't want. How about offering something constructive by telling us what you do want TAKING INTO CONTEXT what GSMNP MNGMT needs to do? Please, tell me you have something better to offer us and GSMNP in regards to a reservation system than the reservation system of the local Motel 6!

Well there are earlier threads Dogwood and you may have missed it, a discussion on a parking fee and a kiosk greeting system... which made more sense. Curious - how are your horse riding skills? - that was in jest.... No worries mate.

To folks that read this thru... We all have concerns about the new system, it doesn't benefit anyone. I don't have a vested interest - I just hike. I plan to hike more this year. I don't care for permits, fees, fines or police types, I have no use for them. I bring my friends & family and we have a good time and many that have hiked with me can say I am neither a burden or bust-but a good guy. I don't get lost - But if I do - I was just confused for a day... Daniel Boone said the same thing so many years ago. I don't need to file a plan, I don't need a watch, I really don't need a lying to me ridge runner (It happened). I just like honest good people to be around... That isn't asking much... friends and family... good people, almost karma.

Take the permit system and s.....it! May you happy trails go your way.

liteweight

01-26-2014, 21:58

I would beg to differ...

If there were no permit system in place, certain parts of the park would quickly get over used.

And even if you didn't care about protecting the natural resources of the park, an entirely different host of problems would appear when 50 people show up at LeConte shelter on the weekend.

After all, back went the permit system was free to the public, you figure there was some sort of reason why they instituted a permit system to begin with.

Now I'll admit, I'm no lover of the new permit system. Ever since it was introduced... I've sort of railed at the fact that it can cost more money for a family to camp in the undeveloped back country than it is to camp at the developed front country camp sites. But on the flip side, it is definitely worth paying SOMETHING for the convenience of obtaining permits 24/7 over the internet (a MUCH better system than making reservations by phone during limited hours... assuming there is someone there to answer the phone).

We posed that question to to the Superintendent when he graciously met with several of us. It would be cheaper to stay in a campground than to bring your family backpacking. He shook his head and said it was possible. We asked the sup about allowing kids to camp free, a yearly pass, a shelters only fee, the current reservation site fee. He told us he wanted to work with us, yet he said no to all. Btw I talked to GSMNP association and the friends of the smokies and both claimed they could fund it all if the sup would have just asked and he refused. Hard to see it any other way....a simple money grab on the backs of backpackers. Why? Because they thought it would be the group that would resist the least.....wrong.

aficion

01-26-2014, 22:01

I would beg to differ...

If there were no permit system in place, certain parts of the park would quickly get over used.

And even if you didn't care about protecting the natural resources of the park, an entirely different host of problems would appear when 50 people show up at LeConte shelter on the weekend.

After all, back went the permit system was free to the public, you figure there was some sort of reason why they instituted a permit system to begin with.

Now I'll admit, I'm no lover of the new permit system. Ever since it was introduced... I've sort of railed at the fact that it can cost more money for a family to camp in the undeveloped back country than it is to camp at the developed front country camp sites. But on the flip side, it is definitely worth paying SOMETHING for the convenience of obtaining permits 24/7 over the internet (a MUCH better system than making reservations by phone during limited hours... assuming there is someone there to answer the phone).

You and I are already paying/have already paid. Taxes. We bought the land and ran off the people who were already there. We pay more taxes every year. The cost of our bureaucracy is an embarrassment. I say reduce it.

Dogwood

01-26-2014, 22:03

I knew if I kept scrolling down your post WOO you'd eventually have a slap waiting for me. :D

Dogwood

01-26-2014, 22:04

"I would beg to differ...

If there were no permit system in place, certain parts of the park would quickly get over used.

And even if you didn't care about protecting the natural resources of the park, an entirely different host of problems would appear when 50 people show up at LeConte shelter on the weekend.

After all, back went the permit system was free to the public, you figure there was some sort of reason why they instituted a permit system to begin with." Well that saved me having to type the same thing! My thoughts too!

aficion

01-26-2014, 22:12

liteweight

01-26-2014, 22:18

sliderule

01-26-2014, 22:26

Curiously bad assumption.

Definitely not. Before sites were rationed, the more popular campsites and shelters were being severely overused. It's tough to have a quality experience with 200 people camped at a shelter. And that's precisely what was happening in the early '70's.

Dogwood

01-26-2014, 22:26

"Hard to see it any other way....a simple money grab on the backs of backpackers. Why? Because they thought it would be the group that would resist the least.....wrong" GOOD to hear someone say they actually met with the GSMNP Superintendent. We should ALL remember this though when the State and Fed gov't close down or curtain services in these locations citing lack of funds!!!

Dogwood

01-26-2014, 22:27

Sliderule, did you actually just defend my position? You're slippin. :)

sliderule

01-26-2014, 22:29

Backcountry was free for years and that didn't happen.

In fact, it did.

liteweight

01-26-2014, 22:32

Definitely not. Before sites were rationed, the more popular campsites and shelters were being severely overused. It's tough to have a quality experience with 200 people camped at a shelter. And that's precisely what was happening in the early '70's.

They also fed bears in the 70's. if we're using data from 30 to 40 years ago to implement a tax now we are in bigger trouble then I thought.

Wise Old Owl

01-26-2014, 22:34

I knew if I kept scrolling down your post WOO you'd eventually have a slap waiting for me. :D

I befriend like minded folks... I care possibly too much,about what we do.,, we are all here to have fun and enjoy company...

liteweight

01-26-2014, 22:35

aficion

01-26-2014, 22:37

Backcountry was free for years and that didn't happen.

Camped in the back country in 1974 with my cabin of 8, 13 year olds from Mondamin. We shared a designated campsite with 6 cowboys from South Carolina who rode in on their cowponies. Both groups cooked over open fires. My boys, whipped from the hike up, crashed, and I played penny ante poker with the cowboys. I still have and treasure the inflatable pillow I won from one of them after he ran out of change. Great memory but point iswe did not need a permit and we were not required to pay. Same with the cowpokes.

Another thought is I'm beginning to think "the good old days" are coming again. Might want to get ready. Probably won't be pretty but I expect the adventures and struggles will do some folks some good.

Thread drift anyone?:-?

Dogwood

01-26-2014, 22:48

I guess you missed the part about the GSMNP Association saying they could have implemented the program FOREVER. The park did get some new fancy vehicles though.
I did miss that part. You lost me. I do 100% agree with everyone who wants to get a break down of where the fee money goes. Personally, I'm very disappointed there aren't snack machines at some of the AT lean tos. All in favor, say I? I think I should be allowed to hunt and fish for free in GSMNP as well. I paid my taxes this yr.

aficion

01-26-2014, 22:56

I did miss that part. You lost me. I do 100% agree with everyone who wants to get a break down of where the fee money goes. Personally, I'm very disappointed there aren't snack machines at some of the AT lean tos. All in favor, say I? I think I should be allowed to hunt and fish for free in GSMNP as well. I paid my taxes this yr.

The logic of increments has gotten us where we are. The pendulum swings both ways. Unlike me.

Dogwood

01-26-2014, 23:01

Dogwood

01-26-2014, 23:30

It's about time we have a McDonalds, KFC, and House O' Weenies Hot Dog Wagon at Newfound Gap too. Barbecued bear balls on a stick anyone? I think all the backcountry sites should allow us to bring in whatever pets we have as well and be allowed to take up as much space in the AT lean tos as they want. We should scrap LNT ethics as well. Make the AT resemble downtown Newark NJ. Since we have no more permit reservation system I think homesteading should now be allowed in GSMNP. The Rainbow Gathering and Burning Man crowd would like that.

Dogwood

01-26-2014, 23:39

Oh the nerve of those nefarious money grabbing NPS employees governing GSMNP stepping all over my rights to have fun in this land of freedom.

George

01-26-2014, 23:59

Southeast

01-27-2014, 01:23

you are way off the mark there buddy - newfound gap needs a BEER SHERPA

I fixed that for you

max patch

01-27-2014, 10:01

That ridiculous GSMNP regulation that says I can't cut down trees for firewood or building my own small cabin is BS as well. I also want to be able to take up the whole AT lean-to to hang my hammock. I want my ATV buddies and me to be able to take our ATVs to any AT lean to we want. I want to be able to hold guided hunting and fishing parties in GSMNP. I'd even donate black bear rugs to ever AT lean to. I want to be able to collect all the "sang", bloodroot, orchids, and ramps I want in GSMNP. I want to be able to have totally naked drunken peyote and meth parties at the AT lean tos as well. No harm in any of those things either. I want to be able to go where I want to do what I want and have the NPS prevent everyone else that might interfere with MY wants from interfering with MY wants.

It's about time we have a McDonalds, KFC, and House O' Weenies Hot Dog Wagon at Newfound Gap too. Barbecued bear balls on a stick anyone? I think all the backcountry sites should allow us to bring in whatever pets we have as well and be allowed to take up as much space in the AT lean tos as they want. We should scrap LNT ethics as well. Make the AT resemble downtown Newark NJ. Since we have no more permit reservation system I think homesteading should now be allowed in GSMNP. The Rainbow Gathering and Burning Man crowd would like that.

While Dogwood is obviously exaggerating to make his point he is absolutely correct. Without the permit system and all the rules and regulations the GSMNP would be loved to death.

madgoat

01-27-2014, 10:20

I liked that the old permit system was free. But it took forever to get a permit over the phone since the Backcountry Reservation number was never answered. I had to call the volunteers at the Backcountry Information number.

While the park provides some materials, tools and logistics for backcountry trail improvements, the funding for said trail improvements comes from money donated to the Trails Forever fund and the work is done by volunteers.

The Great Smoky Mountains Association and Friends of the Smokies are non-profit organizations that provide a constant stream of volunteers and money to support the national park.

I really like how convenient the new website reservation system is, but I think it odd that with all the volunteers and donated money flowing in to the park that they did not seek out the help of their volunteers when implementing this system. While I have donated plenty of money to the park over the years in their drop boxes, bookstores, and memberships... I find that I am a bit less willing to donate my money to these groups now.

TNhiker

01-27-2014, 13:09

While the park provides some materials, tools and logistics for backcountry trail improvements, the funding for said trail improvements comes from money donated to the Trails Forever fund and the work is done by volunteers.

not all of the trail work is done by volunteers......

the park hires seasonal staff to do improvements in the summer......

also, replacement of bear cables is done by rangers (have seen two sets of cables being replaced by rangers over the years)...

so, while yes, volunteers do some of the work---hired staff also does some of the work.....

TNhiker

01-27-2014, 13:10

I find that I am a bit less willing to donate my money to these groups now.

also, you should look at the backlog of projects and things that need to be fixed/replaced/improved upon in the park....

the backlog is millions of dollars worth of work.....

madgoat

01-27-2014, 14:12

Sorry, I should have said....

The great majority of the work done in the backcountry is done by volunteers. The great majority of the funding for backcountry improvements has come from donations. The great majority of the shelters and bear cables have been provided by donations and volunteer labor. The great majority of cleanup at shelters and campsites has been done by volunteers.

Yeah, they have a backlog of projects that clearly need done. And since they have chosen to monetize the backcountry campsites, they can pay for all those backlog projects with my backcountry camping fees instead of my donations.

sliderule

01-27-2014, 16:23

also, replacement of bear cables is done by rangers (have seen two sets of cables being replaced by rangers over the years)...

The probablility that you observed a bona fide NPS Park Ranger doing manual labor is extremely close to zero.

It's a safe bet that the NPS personnel that you observed working on cables did not have the word "ranger" anywhere in their job description.

What organization has primary responsibility for maintaining the AT in the GRSM? And does that organization receive one dime of the backcountry fee?

ATL Backpacker

01-27-2014, 17:02

if you say the backcountry users are declining, can you provide the data?

and the 100,000 users per year is what i have seen for past numbers........

TN - here is the link where I saw the backcountry use decline. http://hikinginthesmokys.blogspot.com/2013/01/smokies-sees-highest-number-of-visitors.html

Note that is 2012 numbers. "The number of tent campers increased by 4.8% versus 2011, however, the number of backpackers dropped 13.6%."

I have to assume 2013 was another drop if for no other reason that overall park visitation dropped in 2013 (shut-down, landslide, etc). And I don't think the fee did anything to reverse a 14% decline, either.

TNhiker

01-27-2014, 17:15

The probablility that you observed a bona fide NPS Park Ranger doing manual labor is extremely close to zero.

It's a safe bet that the NPS personnel that you observed working on cables did not have the word "ranger" anywhere in their job description.

What organization has primary responsibility for maintaining the AT in the GRSM? And does that organization receive one dime of the backcountry fee?

The people that I saw both times repairing the cables were in fact bona fide rangers....they had he rangers uniform ls on and not the volunteer uniforms...
And they were with the head ranger at the time George Minghe (spelling on last name may be off)....

sliderule

01-27-2014, 18:32

The people that I saw both times repairing the cables were in fact bona fide rangers....they had he rangers uniform ls on and not the volunteer uniforms...

Assuming that every NPS employee that you happen to see in a uniform is a ranger will lead you to making erroneous assumptions.

spoonfan

01-28-2014, 14:53

It has happened more than once. Sleeping soundly in your sleeping bag and your awaken by a backcountry ranger asking to see permits. Check the video out.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr_zcY1JB9o
Frankw

They were breaking the rules and that's why they were visited by the Rangers.

In a way, if one breaks the rules, what do you expect?

Dogwood

01-28-2014, 15:29

They were breaking the rules and that's why they were visited by the Rangers.

In a way, if one breaks the rules, what do you expect?

Stop sounding reasonable. We're(including LEOs and NP rangers) are supposed to ignore them doing something illegal in order to be sidetracked in the vid with the issue of the $4 fee. Sounds similar to another major federal issue that's recently been used for political advantage.

sliderule

01-28-2014, 15:55

They were breaking the rules and that's why they were visited by the Rangers.

In a way, if one breaks the rules, what do you expect?

Cites facts not in evidence.

Tuckahoe

01-28-2014, 15:59

They were breaking the rules and that's why they were visited by the Rangers.

In a way, if one breaks the rules, what do you expect?

Cites facts not in evidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA9t1nSGXXE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Dogwood

01-28-2014, 16:30

Show me your papers.

Perhaps, you are right Sliderule but the scenario of a National Park Ranger asking to see a permit at 7:45 a.m does beg the question WHY? the NP Ranger chose to do that. The vid misleads the viewer to believe it was because those nefarious NP Rangers and entrenched NPS machine had to have their $4. In all my stays and overnights in NPs(350+ nights is my best guess, both front and back country) I've personally never been awakened by a NP Ranger asking me to see my permit or known anyone else who has. MAYBE THAT'S BECAUSE I, AND EVERYONE I KNOW, ALWAYS HAD ONE AND IN CLEAR VIEW ATTACHED TO THE OUTSIDE OF OUR SHELTERS or BACKPACKS? ONLY when that was not being done, as is usually clearly stated on the permits and when receiving permits from a NP Ranger one MUST DO, have I witnessed a NP Ranger asking to see a valid permit.

If you want to get into evidence based comments and accusations I have a lot of questions to ask and points to make regarding many comments and accusations on this thread and in that video!

spoonfan

01-28-2014, 16:39

Cites facts not in evidence.

http://southernhighlanders.com/Little%20Bottoms%20and%20rangers.htm

From the first line of the write up--
" Looks like the SouthernHighlanders had a little company on the Little Bottoms
trip last weekend. Here the Ranger is seen dispensing warning tickets to excess
backpackers at the campsite."

There is the evidence for ya. If one goes through the other write ups, you'll see that having excessive backpakcers at sites is a common theme.
Never mind the one guy who decided to go to the bathroom in a campsite.

sliderule

01-28-2014, 16:54

http://southernhighlanders.com/Little%20Bottoms%20and%20rangers.htm

From the first line of the write up--
" Looks like the SouthernHighlanders had a little company on the Little Bottoms
trip last weekend. Here the Ranger is seen dispensing warning tickets to excess
backpackers at the campsite."

There is the evidence for ya. If one goes through the other write ups, you'll see that having excessive backpakcers at sites is a common theme.
Never mind the one guy who decided to go to the bathroom in a campsite.

Relevance?

sliderule

01-28-2014, 16:57

In all my stays and overnights in NPs(350+ nights is my best guess, both front and back country) I've personally never been awakened by a NP Ranger asking me to see my permit or known anyone else who has.

Now you do know someone. It has happened to me.

spoonfan

01-28-2014, 17:03

Relevance?

SOmebody asked for evidence of why the Rangers would show up.

spoonfan

01-28-2014, 17:05

If you want to get into evidence based comments and accusations I have a lot of questions to ask and points to make regarding many comments and accusations on this thread and in that video!

I'd say, bring it on.

gollwoods

01-28-2014, 17:15

:jumpmaybe they will privatize the NP shelters and the rangers, like university police are private. they could sell a shelter to a corporation and the corporation could put it's logo on it someone photo shop a big ole north face logo on a shelter with a big ole doughnut eatin bubba rent a cop standing there

sarc nothing serious in this post

sliderule

01-28-2014, 17:20

SOmebody asked for evidence of why the Rangers would show up.

And you responded with this completely unsupported poppycock:

They were breaking the rules and that's why they were visited by the Rangers.

sliderule

01-28-2014, 17:23

maybe they will privatize the NP shelters and the rangers...

Sort of like what just happened with the reservation system? What a novel idea!!!

Dogwood

01-28-2014, 18:10

Now you do know someone. It has happened to me.

You were flagged anyway at the TH. :)

Sliderule, were you doing something illegal or something that might have been concern to NP Rangers like against NP regulations? I'm asking. I'm asking that you think about that for a moment BEFORE answering.

If you are going to quote me please complete my entire thought. This is NOT all I said: "In all my stays and overnights in NPs(350+ nights is my best guess, both front and back country) I've personally never been awakened by a NP Ranger asking me to see my permit or known anyone else who has."

I also said this to complete that above statement/train of thought: "MAYBE THAT'S BECAUSE I, AND EVERYONE I KNOW, ALWAYS HAD ONE AND IN CLEAR VIEW ATTACHED TO THE OUTSIDE OF OUR SHELTERS or BACKPACKS? ONLY when that was not being done, as is usually clearly stated on the permits and when receiving permits from a NP Ranger one MUST DO, have I witnessed a NP Ranger asking to see a valid permit."

That is several times you have attempted to twist what I've said by partially quoting me. You have done it to others too. I've had to repeatedly go back and add to or clarify my comments when you've taken my comments out of context! I've responded to your questions and accusations repeatedly in a kind way as comprehensively as I've could.

I think I do understand your position not that I agree with your reasoning for it but I have attempted to be respectful of your comments.

spoonfan

01-28-2014, 18:27

And you responded with this completely unsupported poppycock:

Nope. Sorry. Its "supported poppycock".

They admit they were breaking the rule-they got visited by a Ranger.
Had they not been breaking the rules-the Ranger would have simply went on his merry way.

If these rule breakers weren't breaking the rules, a new reservation system wouldnt need to be put in place.
So, put the blame on them-not me.

Thank you.

sliderule

01-28-2014, 19:39

Nope. Sorry. Its "supported poppycock".

Not in any way whatsoever that is connected with the originally referenced video.

If these rule breakers weren't breaking the rules, a new reservation system wouldnt need to be put in place.

There is no reasonable connection between the reservation system and "rule breakers."
Do hotels take reservations because of "rule breakers?"

sliderule

01-28-2014, 20:05

Sliderule, were you doing something illegal or something that might have been concern to NP Rangers like against NP regulations? I'm asking. I'm asking that you think about that for a moment BEFORE answering.

I was a volunteer, camped in a NPS-provided tent at a backcountry campsite. The ranger (undoubtedly a seasonal whipper snapper) drove up in a truck at about first light. From all indications, checking permits was his primary focus. For sure, there was not any probable cause for any other action.

I have nothing against checking permits. As a volunteer, I checked quite a few myself, at the direction of the NPS. But rousting folks out of bed at unreasonable hours isn't all that reasonable.

sliderule

01-28-2014, 20:27

That is several times you have attempted to twist what I've said by partially quoting me. You have done it to others too.

That might be a valid complaint if you were partially quoted is a secondary publication. However, the fact is that your full and unabridged comments are still fully present and readable in this very thread. With that in mind, I find you complaint to be without merit.

liteweight

01-28-2014, 22:39

That might be a valid complaint if you were partially quoted is a secondary publication. However, the fact is that your full and unabridged comments are still fully present and readable in this very thread. With that in mind, I find you complaint to be without merit.

+1 sliderule. I'm not sure dogwood and spoonfan have any idea what they're speaking about. Highlanders are out on a weekly basis. If there is one group that can speak with authority on the gsmnp backcountry it's them.

liteweight

01-28-2014, 22:41

sliderule

01-28-2014, 23:54

I've never seen not even once a permit attached to a backpack or a tent, and there is not one ranger or backcountry volunteer that recommends you do so. NEVER........

There was a time, back in the late 70's to early '80's, when the permits were printed on waterproof tags that came equipped with a wire for attaching to packs or saddles. The problem with those was that, unless a waterproof ink pen was used, the user wound up with an unreadable permit after it got wet the first time.

I suspect that the current printer-generated permits aren't going to fare so well in the damp Smokies environment, either. Maybe it would be a good idea to print multiple copies, just so that a fresh one could be posted daily!!!

HooKooDooKu

01-29-2014, 01:01

There was a time, back in the late 70's to early '80's, when the permits were printed on waterproof tags that came equipped with a wire for attaching to packs or saddles.
In national parks more popular than GSMNP (Grand Canyon, just to site one), they still send you permits on a wire with the specific instructions to display them in plain site when you setup your camp site.

sliderule

01-29-2014, 01:16

In national parks more popular than GSMNP (Grand Canyon, just to site one), they still send you permits on a wire with the specific instructions to display them in plain site when you setup your camp site.

Not that popularity is a factor, but there are no national parks more popular than the Great Smokies.

Dogwood

01-29-2014, 01:59

I've never seen not even once a permit attached to a backpack or a tent, and there is not one ranger or backcountry volunteer that recommends you do so. NEVER........

I beg to differ. This is what I've experienced at the 36 national parks I've spent time hiking in and when I got a hiking permit:
In national parks... (INCLUDING GSMNP!), they still send you permits on a wire with the specific instructions to display them in plain site when you setup your camp site.

Did three 6 night or more hikes in GSMNP in the last 9 months and every time when I got my permits at three different locations I was told in person by multiple NP rangers and also read it with the paperwork I received with my permit(AND in most NPs it's written right on the permit!) that I was to clearly display my permit at all times.

What happened is, just as Spoonfan stated, someone was breaking the rules and someone got caught and warned yet still holds a grudge against the NPS for doing their jobs!

This thread has become a barrage of largely unfounded and constant irrational complaints with folks sticking their fingers in their ears every time someone attempts to offer some constructive insight or solutions. I'm done.

HooKooDooKu

01-29-2014, 01:59

Not that popularity is a factor, but there are no national parks more popular than the Great Smokies.
I believe that you are correct if you are simply counting the number of visitors to the park...

But what I meant when I erroneously used the word "popular" is that GC apparently has a supply/demand ratio that is much worst than GSMNP when it comes to obtaining back-country permits. For the GC, you basically have to submit to a lottery system where you list your 1st, 2nd, 3rd choices for a permit and wait to see if you get anything. By comparison, GSMNP is like trying to reserve a series of hotel rooms.

spoonfan

01-29-2014, 10:47

+1 sliderule. I'm not sure dogwood and spoonfan have any idea what they're speaking about. Highlanders are out on a weekly basis. If there is one group that can speak with authority on the gsmnp backcountry it's them.

I do know what I'm speaking about. I met these guys at a campsite last year and have read enough of their web writeups to see that they are nothing but a bunch of clowns. Who seemingly enjoy their alcohol to the point of black out.

And yes, they do get out on a regular basis but that doesn't impressed me especially after seeing the way they camp. They really don't adhere to the LNT principles.Too many people at a campsite (like 14 to 16 in some cases), burning trash in the fire, leaving food out when they pass out in the tent, not going far enough away from a campsite to use the toilet, cutting trees down, hanging their banner from trees, staying in a shelter more than one night, etc etc etc.

I would expect more from backpackers who get out on a regular basis.

DandT40

01-29-2014, 11:42

But what I meant when I erroneously used the word "popular" is that GC apparently has a supply/demand ratio that is much worst than GSMNP when it comes to obtaining back-country permits. For the GC, you basically have to submit to a lottery system where you list your 1st, 2nd, 3rd choices for a permit and wait to see if you get anything. By comparison, GSMNP is like trying to reserve a series of hotel rooms.

I can vouch for that. Got my GC permit for the end of March. The GSMNP system is exponentially easier than the GC system. For the GC you have to submit your 3 choices for "use areas" and campsites via fax only on the first of the month (or later) 4 months before your scheduled first day below the rim. Then you don't find out if you got it for up to two weeks they say (mine took a little over a week). I got my third choice out of 3 for a trip in March faxing in on November 1st. And I have only 1 corridor campsite on my trip. The demand is much much higher due to less campsites and use areas when compared to the smokies and the permit system is so much nicer/easier for GSMNP.

martinb

01-29-2014, 13:36

Seatbelt

01-29-2014, 19:25

One flaw--maybe not the biggest--is the failure to post the rules for staying overnite at each boundary trailhead. Maybe at each roadside trailhead as well. No doubt some just take off for a few days not realizing that there are rules and restrictions. Some no doubt don't care.

TNhiker

01-30-2014, 11:34

One flaw--maybe not the biggest--is the failure to post the rules for staying overnite at each boundary trailhead

they do that at the kiosks that are stationed at the trailheads.....

Seatbelt

01-30-2014, 13:49

I thought Newfound Gap was a trailhead---I didn't see one there....just blind i guess.

TNhiker

01-30-2014, 17:49

I thought Newfound Gap was a trailhead---I didn't see one there....just blind i guess.

it's been a while since i've been up there and had to look---but there is a kiosk that's right near the path to go to the bathrooms.......

HooKooDooKu

01-30-2014, 17:59

Kiosks are not stationed at the trailheads... they are stationed at the Ranger Stations. There is no Ranger Station at Newfound Gap (just a trailhead for the AT). But there are many more trailheads with no Ranger Station either.

But there are signs at park entrances that you can only camp in designated campsites. Someone coming into the park for the first time would need to go somewhere (like a Ranger Station or Visitor's Center) to learn where the campsites are. Anything that lists the campsites also lists the main rules for camping in the back country.

TNhiker

01-30-2014, 18:23

. Someone coming into the park for the first time would need to go somewhere (like a Ranger Station or Visitor's Center) to learn where the campsites are

or just pick up the dollar map that is avaiable at a bunch of the trailheads...

i should have maybe stated bulletin boards or something along those lines...

cause there are a few of them scattered at various trailheads (off the top of my head, im thinking of right by fontana marina, and right by the AT across fontana dam)....

and those bulletin boards have the rules of camping posted....

ATL Backpacker

01-30-2014, 23:42

Interesting thread. Having backpacked GSMNP for years, the biggest flaw with this system (as with the old one) is enforcement. I spent many nights at "reserved" CS meeting people who just showed up. I've never run in to a ranger out there either. Even if the funds hire five more rangers, how will they patrol all of GSMNP backcountry CS checking permits? They need quite a few more BC rangers to make this system valid via enforcement. Heck, I ran into 4-5 rangers in the first few miles on a trip in ONF. Way more BC rangers out west.

It's my understanding that their used to be far greater back-country ranger presence in the Smokies than there is now. I've done about 200 miles of trail in the park in the last 5 years and only seen a ranger once (and he was checking on Deep Creek tubers).

Why the decline? Lack of funding? Or a staffing decision based on usage? I'd be curious to know if the front-country/back-country ranger coverage matches actual park usage. Majority of visitors don't venture more than a few yards from their car (if they get out at all) so it's not difficult to understand keeping the rangers to the paved areas. Unfortunately that hurts BC conditions.

HooKooDooKu

01-30-2014, 23:48

or just pick up the dollar map that is avaiable at a bunch of the trailheads...

i should have maybe stated bulletin boards or something along those lines...

cause there are a few of them scattered at various trailheads (off the top of my head, im thinking of right by fontana marina, and right by the AT across fontana dam)....

and those bulletin boards have the rules of camping posted....

I believe those ARE the kiosks. They are at ranger stations (which are located at many trail heads) and visitor's centers. The only ones I know of that are located at what could only be described as a trail head would be the ones at each end of the AT (presumably put there for the thru hikers).

scope

01-31-2014, 00:24

Apologies if this has already been covered here, but are you not required to check in at a ranger station first? I mean, when you have a reservation and you're starting your trek through the park. I've not been in GSMNP, obviously, but in RMNP you had to check in and get your site tag for the site you reserved. If someone cancelled the day of the reservation, you'd know it then when they didn't show up. Not that I don't agree with the OP that folks should call to cancel anyway - more as a courtesy to other hikers, but then, I do think that's mostly wishful thinking.

HooKooDooKu

01-31-2014, 03:24

You never have to see a park Ranger to camp in GSMNP.

You can go online to make your reservations, pay for the permit, and print the permit. Then head out into the woods with the permit on you.

Contrary to what someone has recently said (in this or another GSMNP related thread), the current rules printed on the back of the trail map do NOT state that your permit must be displayed at all times, only that it be in your possession.

The current trail map also indicates that permits can alternatively be obtained at the Back Country Office located at the Surgarland's Visitor's Center.

TNhiker

01-31-2014, 04:42

Yeah.....one does not have to have any interaction with a ranger before a trip...

apparently, and this is long before I moved down here and started hiking, according to a ranger that had been with the park for decades---he said at one point one would have to swing by a building in sugarlqnds they called "the sugar shack" and have the rangers check out your gear and then get a permit...

he also told me that was when all sites were reserved and then they switched then to a reserved/unreserved system....

like I says this was before my time so I can't personally attest...

Mags

01-31-2014, 09:46

I've never seen not even once a permit attached to a backpack or a tent, and there is not one ranger or backcountry volunteer that recommends you do so. NEVER........

Every time I go to RMNP or the Indian Peaks Wilderness, I am told at the office to attach to my pack during the day and my tent at night. Even self signed permits at the TH have this on the permit itself. Any national park I've been to has been the same as well.

Some quick googling brought this up:
http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/backcountry-permit.htm

Backcountry travelers must have their permit in their possession while in the backcountry. Once a camp is established, the permit must be attached to a pack, tent, or other equipment in plain view so it can be easily checked by rangers.

Perhaps it is different for the Smokies, but that would be unusual.

Coffee

01-31-2014, 09:50

Permits are not printed on waterproof paper so I've never attached it to my pack or tent except where rain is almost certain to not occur. I attached it to my pack in the Grand Canyon but I have never done so elsewhere. I just keep it in my possession.

Mags

01-31-2014, 09:56

I do the same since I cowboy camp a lot, but could also explain crack of dawn visits. :)

madgoat

01-31-2014, 10:06

Every time I go to RMNP or the Indian Peaks Wilderness, I am told at the office to attach to my pack during the day and my tent at night. Even self signed permits at the TH have this on the permit itself. Any national park I've been to has been the same as well.

Some quick googling brought this up:
http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/backcountry-permit.htm

Backcountry travelers must have their permit in their possession while in the backcountry. Once a camp is established, the permit must be attached to a pack, tent, or other equipment in plain view so it can be easily checked by rangers.

Perhaps it is different for the Smokies, but that would be unusual.

While it is common practice at other national parks, it is not required in the smokies. Up until they changed the permit system early last year, your permit was a thin sheet of carbonless copy paper (the other copy went into the box at the trailhead kiosk).

The new system has you print out a permit, but nowhere in the park regulations do they require that you have it on display. It would definitely make it easier for a ranger to check permits if they were wired to our packs or on our tent, but since GSMNP rangers so rarely grace the backcountry with their presence, it doesn't matter all that much. I have spent a bunch of time in the smokies over the last 15 years or so. In that time, I have been asked to show my permit on one occasion, and that was within a mile of the Cade's Cove campground.

Of course, my experience may be unique, but we seldom camp at the shelters anymore. I just like having a bit more solitary of an experience.

Mags

01-31-2014, 10:20

Good to know. Since they changed the permit system, is it more in line with other national parks? I honestly don't know. Just curious.

Son Driven

01-31-2014, 10:50

That it exists