View Full Version : is there anyone out there that doesnt care about super light hiking?
everyone i meet and many i met on my attempted thru hike was all about " DAT WEIGHT" like if your pack was not under 24.546323 pounds your were scrub tier! i want to get some opinions on people who people who thru hike not caring about weight, and carry 35+
hikerboy57
11-30-2013, 16:34
theres no rule, you can carry however much you want i met a sobo who started from kathadin sept1,2012, about 40 miles south of damascus. he started out with total pack weight of 120 lbs, was carrying a 70 lb pack with 4oo miles left to go.he was obviously doing it wrong.
most thrus will lose pack weight as they go along. nothing wrong with carrying less weight, and no reason to carry more than you have to.
max patch
11-30-2013, 16:37
I'll start off by saying that the lighter weight you carry the happier you'll be.
Having said that, on my thru I generally carried 45 pounds leaving town and 35 pounds entering town. I finished in 5 months and a week, which is faster than what many of 25 pound crowd finishes today. I'm just an average guy in average shape with an average hiking pace.
I started with 50 pounds and got it down to 45 by Damascus. When I started the 100 mile wilderness I took extra clothes (it was getting cold) and 10 days of food (didn't want to be rushed thru this section) which was a pack weight of 62 pounds.
But again, lighter trumps heavier.
max patch
11-30-2013, 16:44
Remember when Coup of GoLite started with 125 pounds at Springer to prove the GoLites packs were tough? He made it to Neels where although he proved that the GoLite pack was tough enough to handle the load he also proved to himself that his body couldn't. He called off his ultra heavy hike at that point and set the record for most stuff mailed home from Neels. 125 pounds over 30 miles is heckova achievement that I hope I never have to attempt.
For me, the correlation of weight to comfort level is not a linear one but has distinct "threshold levels" that I have come to anticipate. For a typical 3-4 day trip, I would usually start out with low 20s in my ULA Circuit and my pace and enjoyment level is pretty much the same as if I was day hiking although I am slightly slower. Starting in the low 20s seems to be the sweet spot as the weight eventually decreases to the mid to high teens which feels pretty effortless at the end of a trip. On the other end of the spectrum, I carried 34 pounds at the start of the second half of the JMT this summer and I found that 30 pounds was the cut off beyond which I had to expend significant additional effort and my mileage goals were harder to attain. Below 30 pounds things got progressively easier and I was soon in my low to mid 20s comfort range.
I got back from the JMT all gung-ho about further reducing my pack weight but I can't really justify doing so for the vast majority of my intended trips, almost all of which would involve a total pack weight no more than mid 20 pound range. I can see ways in which I could easily lower my pack weight by 2-3 pounds but it would cost hundreds of dollars to do so which isn't worth it to me right now since what I have is still functional. What I have now is what I'll be using for segments on the AT in the spring, the Colorado Trail in the summer, and local hiking in the fall next year. I will have to re-evaluate everything prior to my PCT thru in 2015 but I don't anticipate huge changes unless gear breaks or wears out.
off-pher
11-30-2013, 17:10
I have never weighted my pack. I do carry comfort i have a full sized pillow and a folding stool.
Plus i carry half of of dog's food. My pack does weight more on the FT than the AT because i carry
more water on the FT water is harder to come by on the FT. It really depends on where i'm going
and what i'm doing. Sometimes my pack is light sometimes it's heavy. SO HYOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MDSection12
11-30-2013, 17:14
People love to bash UL... But I don't see anyone carrying bricks either. At some point we can all agree that less weight is better, it's just a matter of opinion when that point is.
HikerMom58
11-30-2013, 17:17
Less is better... Having said that, just call me Overload 2. :D Whoops sorry not a thru-hiker.. I have section hiker pride tho! ;)
MuddyWaters
11-30-2013, 17:32
Theres no right and no wrong
But you will be more comfortable ON THE TRAIL carrying less weight.
You will hike faster, and farther per day, things that are good in a thru-hikers point of view.
The less weight you carry, the faster you hike.
The faster you hike, the less food you need to carry between towns, so the lighter you pack is.
The go light crowd think that the less weight that they carry the easier their hike will be. They soon discover that that's not the case. A thru-hike is just plain tough. What you carry on your back makes only a fraction of what it takes. Just because you are carrying 20 to 25 lbs doesn't guarantee a sucesfull hike. The majority of thru-hikers carry between 30 to 35 lbs,
I don't know what my pack weight is. I've never weighed it. However - I do know that it can hold a lot more weight than I am comfortable carrying. I know the weights of some of my gear, and I can say that my summer and winter stuff weighs about the same. I use a lighter hammock in the winter, but i have to carry a few more layers. My summer UQ is less insulating, but my winter one uses down, so they weigh about the same. I will say I have endeavored to carry lighter and carry less (I now use an almost weightless alcohol stove compared to the canister I started with), and I even pared down the foods I carry, use smaller and less ropes, but barring spending a whole lot of $$$ on new equipment, I can't go much lighter. I'll probably get a lighter pack when mine wears out, But I'm not replacing it just to save a pound...
Happy44 yes there are folks on the trial who carry ""normal"" loads. Its just that the light nicks are more vocal and in some cases like to rub in how light their packs are. In the old days the mark of the macho tough guy was how much weight he could carry.. 80 lbs, 100+ etc. These days it's how far he can hike in a day. I've found the folks carrying the really low weight packs (read day packs with under 20 lbs gear fully loaded) tended to hike like 25-35 miles a day. Then they'd take several days off during which us heavier (ie 40-50 pound load) hikers caught up. Everything comes out in the wash in the end.
People should brag less and enjoy and talk about the wilderness more!
just my two cents.
the category of hikers that often tend toward heavier packs are ex-military, to them the load is light compared to what they did carry
that being said a lot of them have trashed knees from years of abuse
Turk6177
11-30-2013, 18:53
When I started hiking (prior to reading whiteblaze) I carried everything and the kitchen sink in my pack. I made it five miles in a torrential rain and could not move another inch out of fatigue. I had all the goodies: Rambo knife, extra rope, 3 liters of water, 3 outfits, "just in case" items, and a ton of food, etc. I realized backpacking was pretty strenuous, and not a lot of fun carrying all this weight. I ran into a former thru hiker on my first night on the AT. He gave me a lot of tips, not just on hiking lighter, but hiking smarter. For example, a lot of people who start out carry way too much water for the conditions. He told me to carry enough water to get to the next water source, not enough for the whole day. That probably cut 6 pounds off my back right there. I then started to research lighter and lighter options for my gear. I guess I have prioritized over time what I can and can not do without. After I got to my lightest, I found there were certain things I wished I had. For example, I didn't like waiting so long for aqua mirra to activate, so I added a little extra weight to carry a Sawyer Squeeze filter. I slowly started to add those things until I met a fine balance of lightweight and comfortable (as in comfort items). I guess everyone has to eventually get to the point of wanting whatever is in their pack badly enough to carry its extra weight. I believe this is individual to every hiker. If I can cut weight I will, only because it makes hiking more fun. I have made gram weenie mistakes and learned from them as well.
like your reply
given how the ultra lighters seem to out mass anyone else on this site, was worried that my planned weight of 45 +/- would be way too much
I don't care about "super" lite hiking. The super lite hiking backpack did not make it to neels gap with out repairs. The super lite tent got wet. The super lite sleeping I will never part with it performed good. The alcohol stove I would not bring until May, it is just to slow for cold weather hiking (march and april) days start out short with little hiking time, 10 min wait for dinner is just to long. I refuse to eat remain noodles every day. I want better food and it has weight. I love this one, the tarp, in heavy rain the water ran down the mountain at least 1 to 2 inches deep and I got soaked. the wind fluttered the tarp so bad one night the noise keep me up all night. Snow falls sideways and I was covered under the tarp. It takes lots of stakes and cord to get a good solid tarp set. OH and in the summer I woke up with bugs up my nose and all over my face. I will carry a tent with solid rain fly the covers the pack also. I hate base weight who goes backpacking with no food or water. load up your as you put it on your back that is what you carry. My pack food and water total 36-40 lbs every trip. In the warm months I can get down about 10 lbs. to 26 to 30. I carry nair clipper and a tooth brush and sun screen and deet and duck tape and needle and thread and bandages AND vitimins. and drink mix powers. It adds up, and a phone and a mp3 player and batteries and a charger.
like your reply
given how the ultra lighters seem to out mass anyone else on this site, was worried that my planned weight of 45 +/- would be way too much
you are kidding, right? There are 5 heavyweight BPers for every one ultra lighters on this site if not more. UL is sub ten lb base weight. I could sit by the trail at Blood Mountain next spring and count UL BPers on the AT. I likely wouldn't need two hands.
To the OP. I am one that doesn't care one bit about how much you are carrying. CYOW.
illabelle
11-30-2013, 20:54
People love to bash UL... But I don't see anyone carrying bricks either. At some point we can all agree that less weight is better, it's just a matter of opinion when that point is.
I don't carry bricks, but I have been known to carry rocks. Someday I'll get one from Katahdin to add to my collection.
I'm pretty sure I've violated all the laws of ultra-light hiking.
MuddyWaters
11-30-2013, 21:52
you are kidding, right? There are 5 heavyweight BPers for every one ultra lighters on this site if not more. UL is sub ten lb base weight. I could sit by the trail at Blood Mountain next spring and count UL BPers on the AT. I likely wouldn't need two hands.
+1 Yup.
I dont know about this site,
But on the trail, it seems to me maybe more like 50 normal backpackers, per UL hiker. Its really not that common on the AT.
You never see them because they hike so fast, but they're there! :)
Seriously, in my meetup group, we have 3 ultralight guys out of about 15 active members who go on trips.
UL - Ultra Light is, to me, a separate class in the hobby we call backpacking
From my personal experience, at or under 30 lbs all-in (food & water) is a great target / level for 98% of all hikers.
yes, takes some money and some planning.
As of right now, at 54 years old there are certain "comfort" levels I am willing to carry, including:
Whiskey or whatever "booze" I choose to carry, I am a section hiker, at the end of the day, nothing washes my single serve SPAM down like some good stuff from the liquor store.
Ditto waterproof bags and separate bags for all of my gear. I like to be organized in life & on the trail, same thing applies to keep my gear DRY
Clothes - I used to carry extra, no more. Lighter, thinner, layers, works for me
Gear - the newer gear does cost money, this is MY hobby, saving up for new gear also works for me. Less is more.
No Cook - again, as a section hiker I am fine with not having any warm food for 10-14 days. eat in town, splurge in the off hiking season. Learned no cook mode from serious thru hikers like Trek and Eric D. If it works for them it defintely works for Del Q
At 220lbs and dropping, a 30 lb pack is X % of my body weight
Looking at Spring 2014 hike, hope to be closing in on 210 lbs...............started this journey 245lbs + body weight and 40+ lb packs.
UL is a matter of perspectivem age and time
Wise Old Owl
11-30-2013, 22:17
Del- Q there is enough there on No Cook to start a new thread if you like.
I don't care about "super" lite hiking. The super lite hiking backpack did not make it to neels gap with out repairs. The super lite tent got wet. The super lite sleeping I will never part with it performed good. The alcohol stove I would not bring until May, it is just to slow for cold weather hiking (march and april) days start out short with little hiking time, 10 min wait for dinner is just to long. I refuse to eat remain noodles every day. I want better food and it has weight. I love this one, the tarp, in heavy rain the water ran down the mountain at least 1 to 2 inches deep and I got soaked. the wind fluttered the tarp so bad one night the noise keep me up all night. Snow falls sideways and I was covered under the tarp. It takes lots of stakes and cord to get a good solid tarp set. OH and in the summer I woke up with bugs up my nose and all over my face.
With all due respect, skill and experience don't weigh an ounce. Sounds like your quest for lightening your load outpaced your experience and skill level.
Wise Old Owl
11-30-2013, 22:38
Good pick up Malto - 1234 if an alcohol stove is good enough for the mushers at the Iditerod... well fill in the rest.
Isn't a tarp pitched with a down side on the wind? Could it be folded under you depending how big it is?
I expect to get wet, cold, & hungry - its all part of being outside and being prepared.
FYI never had Remain Noodles is that a Zombie Apocalypse food?
squeezebox
12-01-2013, 00:11
Seems as though trail comfort is opposite ends of the pendulem to camp comfort. You have to decide how much you can do without to be trail comfortable, tarp no tent etc. And you need to decide how much you're willing to carry to be camp comfortable. better food, better stove, bigger better tent, etc. So what are you comfortable with ?
Wise Old Owl
12-01-2013, 00:25
You have that right - its learning to use items that have dual use and others that you are willing to do without.
Gonecampn
12-01-2013, 00:31
For myself, the limit is 25lbs. I weigh 107 - 110 pds. Anything over that and I feel it in my knees. I really don't hurt for anything on the trail though. I learned the hard way about the dry bags! Definitely a must have!
Leanthree
12-01-2013, 01:17
Some of it is that the technology has come a long enough way that you can carry the same functionality for 10-15 lbs less buying the gear today vs 10 years ago for the same inflation-adjusted price.
Gray Blazer
12-01-2013, 06:19
I'll never be a real hiker cuz that UL stuff is expensive. I have managed over the years to get the wt down to 30 lbs with 4 days of food and I carry a lot of water ( I don't know why. There are plenty of good springs on the AT) and I stick small water bottles in all the extra spaces in my External 70's Jansport.
Pedaling Fool
12-01-2013, 07:58
Weight training is the best way to fight the degrading force, i.e. gravity. Simply reducing pack weight is a shortsighted attempt to fight gravity; you must fight gravity with gravity.
What do you think is the average pack weight of all the decrepit old people walking around?
kayak karl
12-01-2013, 09:26
What do you think is the average pack weight of all the decrepit old people walking around?
This is the second thread you have used "decrepit" to describe old people. do you have a problem with older people on the trail??
garlic08
12-01-2013, 09:44
I'll beat Mags to it--you should read the essay he wrote (http://www.pmags.com/hike-my-hike-damn-it-hmhdi). HMHDI!
Frankly I care not what other people carry. But if someone (like me ten years ago) reaches their later years and can no longer carry the load, and is interested in getting back on the trail and is willing to listen to new ideas, I'll expound at length about how to lighten the load and have more fun doing it. I think that's why you see a lot of responses here about UL ideas, and it may seem disproportional--the hikers who do it are really excited about it.
On my last hike I carried a gallon of water, 2 bottles of wine, a couple pounds of potatoes, steak, etc, etc. There's nothing wrong with doing stuff like that. You're the one that's got to carry it. Some people will probably make snide remarks about the weight you carry...single those people out when you say things like "man this steak is good" or "this sleeping pad is really soft" or "I love how spacious my tent is, makes rainy days like this so much more comfortable." Having said that, on long hikes if you've got something in your pack and you haven't used it for over a week, then why are you carrying it? And I ask this as someone who has carried loads of crap I didn't need for hundreds of miles but eventually decided to get rid of everything but the basics...by the end of my thruhike attempt the only thing I was willing to splurge on weight wise was food, but I still had my 5 and a half pound tent and a $10 Walmart sleeping bag that probably weighed 5 pounds as well because that's what I had and I wasn't at the point where I was going to spend piles of money to drop that weight...but I didn't have much else in my pack because I had established a personal rule that if I hadn't used it in a week I got rid of it. I personally wouldn't spend hundreds of extra dollars on ultralight equipment, but as equipment is replaced and I have to buy new stuff, how much it weighs is definitely a factor in choosing that new equipment...I bought a 2 pound sleeping bag for $40 on sale. I wouldn't have paid $200 for it, and if the one I had was still serviceable I wouldn't have even spent the $40, but because I needed a new one and it was reasonably priced, I was excited to get a 2 pound bag.
Tuckahoe
12-01-2013, 09:52
People love to bash UL... But I don't see anyone carrying bricks either. At some point we can all agree that less weight is better, it's just a matter of opinion when that point is.
This post sums up the topic pretty well.
Wise Old Owl
12-01-2013, 10:11
Weight training is the best way to fight the degrading force, i.e. gravity. Simply reducing pack weight is a shortsighted attempt to fight gravity; you must fight gravity with gravity.
What do you think is the average pack weight of all the decrepit old people walking around?
25104
..............................................nuf said.
Pedaling Fool
12-01-2013, 10:15
What do you think is the average pack weight of all the decrepit old people walking around?
do you have a problem with older people on the trail??My remark wasn't about old people on the trails. It was about all the decrepit (not deragatory; just fact-based description) old people that are seen all around us in normal life settings. What is their average pack weight?
The point being that many of them have probably never backpack. You can look up the % of Americans that run, but if you do a google search of the % of Americans that hike, all you'll get are links about tax hikes.
Worrying about an extra 10lbs on one's back, let alone an extra 10 ounces, is missing the point. But that's what you get when you're obsessed, you miss the point.
Pedaling Fool
12-01-2013, 10:18
25104
..............................................nuf said.
I don't resent growing old; I welcome it ;)
I'm so misunderstood:D
Odd Man Out
12-01-2013, 10:25
25104
..............................................nuf said.
Or as George Burns put it when asked what it's like to live to be 90 years old:
"Beats the alternative"
With a 13-15 pound base weight, I am not close to being "ultra light", but my pack weight is still among the lightest of the backpackers I've encountered this year on sections of the AT, the Grand Canyon, and on a JMT thru hike. I only recall one true "ultra light" backpacker - he was a (very fast) PCT SOBO thru hiker I met in Tuolumne Meadows. Most hikers on all trails I've been on this year have had traditional gear and heavier packs and seem to get along fairly well regardless. I think that it becomes much more important on a fast thru hike of the long trails like the AT, PCT, and CDT. Based on my typical pace and intended timeframe for my PCT thru hike in 2015, my assumption is that I'll be spending an average of 10-12 hours per day hiking and very little time awake in camp so "trail comfort" will be paramount. But fast thru hiking seems to me to be a niche activity compared to more typical weekend backpacking - perhaps spending 6 hours/day on trail and lots of time awake in camp and that would logically call for different choices IMO...
Wise Old Owl
12-01-2013, 10:28
25106Me too.
Traffic Jam
12-01-2013, 12:05
I'm grateful for all the UL options. If it weren't for UL equipment, I wouldn't be hiking. 20-22 lbs. is all I can comfortably carry so I gladly pay extra to save ounces.
It's just something to talk about on the trail. Like start out with "Wow it's really hot/cold! ... How far are you going today? ... Are Hiker A and Hiker B sleeping together, or are they just friends? ... I thought A had a girlfriend at home? ... But they always get their own hotel room! ... I heard B might be a lesbian ... " Once you have covered these topics to a satisfactory level, what else are you going to talk about? Gear of course!!
You never see them because they hike so fast, but they're there! :)
Seriously, in my meetup group, we have 3 ultralight guys out of about 15 active members who go on trips.
My meet up group has a lot more newbies and weekend warriors than serious hikers (me included), but there are a couple of dedicated UL guys. They have their little backpacks and micro tents… its amazing what they can tote around in those little packs. Then there are the guys on the other end. Went on an overnight last month - one guy had an 85 liter pack stuffed full. Now, mine is big - its 75L, so it was nice to see someone in the big boy club, but mine carries a lot more air now that I don't tote so much useless crap (Never let your wife help you pack shop; "Hey, why don't you get this 75L pack, it's on sale for the same price as the 65L pack you want - that's 10 more liters for FREE!")
Gray Blazer
12-01-2013, 13:16
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/3/7/8/4/pict0213.jpg
You can tie a lot of stuff on a external pack. I only had to walk about 2 miles. LOL
Furlough
12-01-2013, 15:45
Are Hiker A and Hiker B sleeping together, or are they just friends? ... I thought A had a girlfriend at home? ... But they always get their own hotel room! ... I heard B might be a lesbian ... " Once you have covered these topics to a satisfactory level, what else are you going to talk about? Gear of course!!
My guess is that if you are not hiker a or b, those outside looking in never cover the topic satisfactorily. :)
MuddyWaters
12-01-2013, 17:41
I'm grateful for all the UL options. If it weren't for UL equipment, I wouldn't be hiking. 20-22 lbs. is all I can comfortably carry so I gladly pay extra to save ounces.
I can carry more, but I will second that I find about 22-23 lbs as much as I care to carry. And thats about 6-7 days food.
Its simply much more enjoyable
And when the food has dwindled a bit, and the pack weighs less than 15 with food and water, you dont even know you have a pack on.
Anyone that would argue against being more comfortable is ......biased.
I never discuss gear on the trail. Couldnt care less what anyone else has. If it works for them, thats great. Thats really all that matters.
AT towns are pretty close together. But there are other places where the ability to move fast, and carry less overall weight lets you access areas that are not feasible to those carrying too much weight, and moving slowly.
Different Socks
12-01-2013, 17:56
I had a somewhat haevy pack for my 1992 thru hike but I made it all the way with most of the things I started with. It is now 21 years later and I will still carry alot of things but they will be alittle lighter just b/c I am older, not b/c I wish to carry less or go farther. I'd rather carry the weight and be comfy in any kind of weather eating hot food than go stoveless, eat cold food for every meal and have only just enough clothing protection to save my life when resting.
Gotta love the UL people that on a reg basis ask the heavy loaders for things that they themselves did not bring along b/c it's too heavy. I'll let the m use my stove once b/c they are stoveless, but after that forget it. You put yourself in that situation, you work it out on your own and not have others take pity on you.
I think that many light backpackers( I think OP was referring to them rather than Real ULers) have started with heavier packs at some point in their hiking lives so it is not like that we don't know how comfortable or uncomfortable the heavier backpacks are. Been there done that.
I won't carry heavy loads because :
1- For god sake I have lighter gears that do the same job of heavier loads and I have already paid for them.So why not using them.
2- I plan to hike until I am old enough not to be able to hike and I sure know by carrying heavier packs I AM shortening my hiking carrier and will reach to my retirement earlier.
3- what others carry on their pack has zero effect on what I am carrying on mine so why should I care about it. You have every right to carry as much as you want as long as you want.For me Lighter is more fun . I like to have more fun.
double d
12-01-2013, 18:20
The first debate about pack weight started with humans who hiked out Africa many thousands of year ago! But with all the great technology and competition between corporations for your hiking gear dollar, I would say around 35 pounds seems to be best for most hikers. Also, first rule of light weight hiking is to have a healthy body weight.
Son Driven
12-01-2013, 18:35
Less is better, on and off the trail. I sold off all my stuff except for my Ford Focus, and PC, prior to my 3/6/13 departure for Springer. After completing my AT through hike, all that I posses fits in my Ford. I have a month to month lease. When ever I have the time & funds I will be on the trail again.
Gotta love the UL people that on a reg basis ask the heavy loaders for things that they themselves did not bring along b/c it's too heavy. I'll let the m use my stove once b/c they are stoveless, but after that forget it. You put yourself in that situation, you work it out on your own and not have others take pity on you.
Just curious how regular this scenario happens. As a UL BPer I have yet to ask any hiker, heavyweight or not for anything because I didn't have it. I have heard this comment before yet it has never happened with me or to me. Would love to know just how regular this really is.
Just curious how regular this scenario happens. As a UL BPer I have yet to ask any hiker, heavyweight or not for anything because I didn't have it. I have heard this comment before yet it has never happened with me or to me. Would love to know just how regular this really is.
It happens to me on a fairly regular basis (a few times a year). They love my Jetboil.
MuddyWaters
12-01-2013, 19:57
Gotta love the UL people that on a reg basis ask the heavy loaders for things that they themselves did not bring along b/c it's too heavy. I'll let the m use my stove once b/c they are stoveless, but after that forget it. You put yourself in that situation, you work it out on your own and not have others take pity on you.
I have to wonder how many people carry items requiring a stove, without carrying a stove. Would seem to be very few. I think this is more of a "anti-ULer" myth than anything. (Being offered some some hot food in winter by others might not be though.)
My stove/pot/windscreen weighs a grand total of 1.9 oz. Stove and enough fuel for two weeks weighs 8oz total. Its a myth that a ULer wont carry a stove because its heavy. People dont carry stoves, because they dont care to fool with cooking 1 meal a day, when they already eat the 80% of their food cold. What makes sense?
I have also met heavier-minded hikers, that were still more simplicity minded and did not carry stoves. Just dont see the point when there are many non-heat options.
Theres a whole spectrum.
Maybe UL hikers should not help heavy hikers that twist their ankle or have blisters because they were carrying a heavy pack. Serves the fools right afterall.
Or maybe no one should help overweight people, because they should know better than to come out without being in top condition.
Or even, tell anyone else where the water is, because you know, its their responsibility to know these things. If they had a guidebook, they wouldnt have to ask.
We should all help each other out when possible........just because we can.
I have to wonder how many people carry items requiring a stove, without carrying a stove. Would seem to be very few.
I have also met heavier-minded hikers, that were still more simplicity minded and did not carry stoves. Just dont see the point when there are many non-heat options.
Theres a whole spectrum.
Maybe UL hikers should not help heavy hikers that twist their ankle or have blisters because they were carrying a heavy pack. Serves the fools right afterall.
Or maybe no one should help overweight people, because they should know better than to come out without being in top condition.
Or even, tell anyone else where the water is, because you know, its their responsibility to know these things. If they had a guidebook, they wouldnt have to ask.
We should all help each other out when possible........just because we can.
Great comment.
squeezebox
12-01-2013, 20:30
But it each hiker's responsability to have certain necessary things , like guide books, water filter, stove. If you are going to use it, bring it.
I have no problem with ultralight hikers at all, and I have no problem heating up water in my Jetboil to help them out, or sharing my water. I am a weekend section hiker however and have more fuel than I normally need and I always carry extra water.
Typical situations I have run into with ultralight hikers is:
1. They either run out of alcohol for their stove or are almost out and need hot water for their noodles.
2. They run out of water on a hot dry section of the trail because they only carry enough to get to the next water source (which is further than they expected).
3. They arrive at a full shelter, cold and wet and expect people to make room.
As it has been said on here more than once, their is a fine line between ultralight and stupid light.
There is nothing wrong with packing light, but packing so light you need to count on the help of others on a regular basis when the going gets tough is stupid light.
I pack as light as I can and still be able to care for myself in the expected conditions.
I have no problem with ultralight hikers at all, and I have no problem heating up water in my Jetboil to help them out, or sharing my water. I am a weekend section hiker however and have more fuel than I normally need and I always carry extra water.
Typical situations I have run into with ultralight hikers is:
1. They either run out of alcohol for their stove or are almost out and need hot water for their noodles.
2. They run out of water on a hot dry section of the trail because they only carry enough to get to the next water source (which is further than they expected).
3. They arrive at a full shelter, cold and wet and expect people to make room.
As it has been said on here more than once, their is a fine line between ultralight and stupid light.
There is nothing wrong with packing light, but packing so light you need to count on the help of others on a regular basis when the going gets tough is stupid light.
I pack as light as I can and still be able to care for myself in the expected conditions.
Bolded says it all. Too many hikers try to go lighter without the understanding of what they need. World of difference between a calculated risk (Using a cat can stove that is super light, but easy to crush) and an unnecessary risk (not taking a stove expecting to be able to use strangers' stoves).
No one, I think, can argue that carrying a lighter weight is easier to do and on the body, and can make for potentially more enjoyment in the hike, so long as you have what you as an individual need to enjoy yourself on your own hike.
Bolded says it all. Too many hikers try to go lighter without the understanding of what they need. World of difference between a calculated risk (Using a cat can stove that is super light, but easy to crush) and an unnecessary risk (not taking a stove expecting to be able to use strangers' stoves).
No one, I think, can argue that carrying a lighter weight is easier to do and on the body, and can make for potentially more enjoyment in the hike, so long as you have what you as an individual need to enjoy yourself on your own hike.
As much as I love to think that no one can argue that, this simple fact has been argued numerous times right here on WB.
I am just glad I hike where there are not all these people sitting around a shelter arguing about how they won't help ultra liters who don't pack jetboil..or whatever nonsense is being talked about. :rolleyes:
As much as I love to think that no one can argue that, this simple fact has been argued numerous times right here on WB.
So they are arguing that carrying less is not easier on the body? I'm not saying there isn't lots of contention over going light to go light, just that it's less work to carry less weight, but bring what you need to be comfortable and safe.
I am just glad I hike where there are not all these people sitting around a shelter arguing about how they won't help ultra liters who don't pack jetboil..or whatever nonsense is being talked about. :rolleyes:
Right? If I have a stove, and someone needs hot water, I'm not turning them away unless it jeopardizes me. Since I carry a small wood burner, usually not an issue. I might rib em some for the decision to not have a stove when they have food that needs it, however. :)
Cookerhiker
12-01-2013, 22:09
Not a thruhiker so I guess my response doesn't count but I'm not a gram weenie. Lighter is nicer and I pack lighter than 30 years ago for the simple reason that all gear has gotten lighter.
I have no problem with ultralight hikers at all, and I have no problem heating up water in my Jetboil to help them out, or sharing my water. I am a weekend section hiker however and have more fuel than I normally need and I always carry extra water.
Typical situations I have run into with ultralight hikers is:
1. They either run out of alcohol for their stove or are almost out and need hot water for their noodles.
2. They run out of water on a hot dry section of the trail because they only carry enough to get to the next water source (which is further than they expected).
As it has been said on here more than once, their is a fine line between ultralight and stupid light..
If anyone is going UL and underprepared shame on them. The goal is to carry what you need. Not less than what you need. I go as light as I can. But always make sure I have what's necessary. If I need to carry one gallon of water to make the water hole that's what I carry.
MuddyWaters
12-01-2013, 22:31
I have no problem with ultralight hikers at all, and I have no problem heating up water in my Jetboil to help them out, or sharing my water. I am a weekend section hiker however and have more fuel than I normally need and I always carry extra water.
Typical situations I have run into with ultralight hikers is:
1. They either run out of alcohol for their stove or are almost out and need hot water for their noodles.
2. They run out of water on a hot dry section of the trail because they only carry enough to get to the next water source (which is further than they expected).
3. They arrive at a full shelter, cold and wet and expect people to make room.
As it has been said on here more than once, their is a fine line between ultralight and stupid light.
There is nothing wrong with packing light, but packing so light you need to count on the help of others on a regular basis when the going gets tough is stupid light.
I pack as light as I can and still be able to care for myself in the expected conditions.
I personally have encountered more heavy hikers out of water, because they are generally noobs carrying too much weight, and moving slowly between sources. I give anyone water if I can spare it., but Im seldom carrying more than an extra 1/2 liter myself. Regardless, no one has died yet of thirst on the AT that Im aware of. Water is never more than a couple miles, its not that serious of an issue....unless it takes you all day to hike that couple of miles.
Anyone can run out of fuel. Id expect alcohol stove users to be less likely, because 1) they can see their fuel 2) its available everywhere. I know some have had issues with spillage or contamination with water when storing in water bottle type containers. Bad Idea.
Everyone that arrives at a shelter cold and wet, expects others to make room. Its an unwritten rule that you make room for people if its raining. While Im sure there have been a few hikers that didnt carry shelter and depended on shelters (ive read trailjournals/books by a couple), I wouldnt say that is normal at all.
The only hikers I have heard of counting on the help of others on a routine basis, were hikers that were out of money. Invariably, they werent UL either.
A cat stove cannot be crushed easily, if it is, you bend it back. Never mind the fact it sucks anyway. You can cook with a small piece of tin foil folded into a cup if you have too. A stove isnt a necessity anyway, even with noodles. You can eat noodles dry just fine, its not as appetizing Chunks of ramen dipped in peanut butter is not an uncommon meal.
Most arguements against UL is nothing but myths and hearsay IMO. A great many HEAVY backpackers go out without things they need, or more commonly crap versions of it. The average UL hiker is better educated than many.
If anyone is going UL and underprepared shame on them. The goal is to carry what you need. Not less than what you need. I go as light as I can. But always make sure I have what's necessary. If I need to carry one gallon of water to make the water hole that's what I carry.
Exactly. There are many useful UL tenets. but I never saw "Mooch off of others to lighten your load." If I run short of water I will be thirsty, not dead. If I run out of fuel I will eat almost reconstituted food, not starve. If I don't carry a shelter I am a idiot and deserve to be miserable. If it rains and I don't have proper rain gear, I get wet. Experience is knowing where to push the limits and where to play it safe. And every one of these issues could impact the lightest or heaviest BPers. It has nothing to do with weight, it has everything to do with experience.
I'd love to go UL if I had the dough. I have no issue with anyone who does it
MuddyWaters
12-01-2013, 22:45
I'd love to go UL if I had the dough. I have no issue with anyone who does it
Another misconception.
UL can actually be cheaper, If you start there.
The crap you dont bring, doesnt cost a cent.
Yes, some cuben stuff costs $$$, but other gear is just as inexpensive as conventional, or less.
The problem for most is, it isnt carried at REI.
Another misconception.
UL can actually be cheaper, If you start there.
The crap you dont bring, doesnt cost a cent.
Yes, some cuben stuff costs $$$, but other gear is just as inexpensive as conventional, or less.
Problem is, I didn't start there, and most of us don't. We just go to Dick's and buy "starter" gear.
then , we buy mid range gear (where I am now)
just wish is had known the stuff I now know when I started, I would have spent the same total, and had lighter stuff !
MuddyWaters
12-01-2013, 23:11
Problem is, I didn't start there, and most of us don't. We just go to Dick's and buy "starter" gear.
then , we buy mid range gear (where I am now)
just wish is had known the stuff I now know when I started, I would have spent the same total, and had lighter stuff !
True.
Spending money twice sucks.
I have a buddy that started hiking again last yr, he used to hike back in the 80s.
He quizzed me on all this UL stuff he read about, all my gear. He was all gung-ho to try a lightwt approach since hes had both knees operated on from motorcycle accidents (raced dirtbikes).
I referred him to all the popular cottage vendor websites. In the end, he chickened out and went to REI and bought new gear that was similar to his old gear. He was actually afraid to change.
He did manage a 17lb base wt though, although for what he spent $$$ he could have had a 7 lb base wt.
No matter, it all works, and if it gets you out there its good.
He was still happy as that was probably 10 lbs less than the gear he used to carry many yrs ago.
Another Kevin
12-02-2013, 00:16
Yeah, I'm one of those "resistant to change" guys. So count me as a heavyweight or traditionalist.
I've just been getting back into hiking the last couple of years (well, ok, I used to make a trip or two a year in between) after many years away from it. I started out with cheapish gear because I didn't know the modern stuff or what my style would be with it. I've gradually been swapping things out, but I'm not in a position to replace the whole system.
My Big 4 are a shade under 10 lbs. My pack is clunky - but it was sub-$100 and it fits me. My sleeping bag isn't the lightest, either, because I need a Long bag - a 72 inch bag doesn't quite work for me - and I use a 20 deg bag three seasons - in warm weather, I might wind up sleeping on top of it or have it opened up, pulled around my shoulders with my arse hanging out in the breeze. One of these years I might get a summer weight bag for warmer weather. My tent is pretty good - 1 lb 10 oz. My sleeping pad isn't horrible at about a pound. Add a few pounds for winter, when I'll be toting a 4-pound sleeping bag and an extra blue foam pad.
I don't know how likely I'd be to go with a quilt. I know I'm not any too likely to go with a tarp or bivy instead of a tent: "Blessed is he who sleepeth behind mosquito netting, for he shall remain sane."
I carry a few extra comfort items, like my nylon bucket. I'm not about to go no-cook; cooking can be a high point in my day on the trail. I have a reasonably lightweight kit for it - soda can stove, aluminum potstand/windscreen, Grease Pot, Fauxbaker, spork, mug, Reflectix freezer bag cozy. The major luxury there is a couple of ounces for a pour-over Melitta coffee filter. If I can't have real coffee, I'm not going.
In colder weather, my major in-pack (as opposed to worn) clothing weight is an extra baselayer, puffy jacket, fleece pants, rainsuit, balaclava and at least two extra pair of socks and liners. In some conditions a hardshell replaces the rain jacket.
First-aid kit, itty-bitty sewing kit, medications, soap, hand sanitizer, teethbreesh and floss, Deuteronomy 23:13, TP, tinderbox, bandana, towel (a piece of Sham-Wow from the dollar store), Leatherman tool, bearbag and paracord, Camelbak, at least one Nalgene with a Reflectix jacket on it (that's the coffee thermos!), AquaMira, phone, maps, compass, headlamp, whistle, credit card, driver's license, health insurance and prescription cards, some cash, car keys.
About two pounds of "it's none of your goshdarned business what else is in my pack."
All this adds up to "traditionalist", I think. But except for the first-aid and repair kits (which I hope NOT to use), I think I use every single item I listed on every trip. Maybe once in a great while I get lucky enough not to need the pack cover or the rainsuit. So even if I upgrade every item to a lighter one, I'm never going to be an ultralighter.
That's fine. I'm a clueless weekender. I get out on weekends, do short miles and have fun. That's what it's all about.
...Most arguements against UL is nothing but myths and hearsay IMO. A great many HEAVY backpackers go out without things they need, or more commonly crap versions of it. The average UL hiker is better educated than many.
Nothing I said was an argument against UL, what I said was an argument against stupid light (can also apply to stupid heavy). Also, nothing I said was a myth or hearsay, each and everyone of those has happened to me and more than once.
I think George Washington Sears aka Nessmuk summed it up rather well about 100 years ago,
"Go light; the lighter the better, so that you have the simplest material for health, comfort and enjoyment."
garlic08
12-02-2013, 09:13
Just curious how regular this scenario happens. As a UL BPer I have yet to ask any hiker, heavyweight or not for anything because I didn't have it. I have heard this comment before yet it has never happened with me or to me. Would love to know just how regular this really is.
Sometimes you have to remember this is an AT-based forum. As you know, things are so different in "AT World," compared to the long Western trails. It's different when there is no one to mooch from for many, many days. Like Mags said, it's nice to hike where nobody's complaining.
I'm with you, Malto. Having hiked many thousands of UL miles, I've loaned plenty of stuff out to heavier hikers (usually blister first aid) and have never asked for anything in return. Once on the AT I accepted the kind offer of a plate of shared cooked food, and this was after I'd helped the person fix his water filter. It was simple decency and gratitude, and we both gained something from it.
It's a universal truth that anyone packing lighter than you is a risk-taking fool, and anyone packing heavier than you is an obsolete dinosaur.
Just curious how regular this scenario happens. As a UL BPer I have yet to ask any hiker, heavyweight or not for anything because I didn't have it. I have heard this comment before yet it has never happened with me or to me. Would love to know just how regular this really is.
"Dude, can I get a squeeze off your toothpaste?" If people are sponging off you all the time its because you allow them to, but some people have no shame and will continuously ask and pester you until they get what they want, then act like you're the jerk for not giving it to them.
MDSection12
12-02-2013, 10:54
But it each hiker's responsability to have certain necessary things , like guide books, water filter, stove. If you are going to use it, bring it.
I'm not sure this is a UL vs. HW issue though. In my hiking group I'm both the UL (relative to them anyway) guy and the guy who loans half his stuff out to others. They all carry huge tents, chairs, canned goods, etc. and yet they inevitably find something I've brought useful; sit pad, saw, warm jacket, tarp, first aid, etc. Perhaps it has more to do with experienced vs. inexperienced hikers, when it comes to the borrowing aspect.
I know I bring stuff that is not absolutely necessary, but here is what I bring...my total pack weight including food and water was 36lbs for a 2 night, 3 day trip:
Osprey Volt 60: 3lbs 12 oz
Thermarest Scout Pad: 1 lb 1 oz
Big Agnes Deer Park 30: 3lbs 2 oz
MSR Hoop Tent, about 5lbs (my wife carried the poles)
Helinox Camp Chair: 2 lbs
Bear Vault 450: 2 lbs
Clothes Bag: did not weight, guess, but 4lbs to be conservative
Food for me and my wife: 5lbs (guess)
Water (2 liters): 4.4lbs
As you can see if you add it up, it adds up to 30 lbs, not 36lbs, so I have no idea what the extra 6 lbs was from. lol Must have been underestimating the weight of the food. And I did weigh the pack when it was full using a luggage hanging scale.
I am already planning to eliminate the Bear Vault and get an Alite Monarch chair (if I can get my weight down so I won't break the chair lol), so I can save 3lbs right there without spending a lot of money. We are also saving to buy a Tarptent Stratospire, and I may buy an Enlightened Equipment 20 degree quilt to save more weight.
There is no reason I should be over 25lbs after that, including my food and water.
Perhaps it has more to do with experienced vs. inexperienced hikers, when it comes to the borrowing aspect.
I think this is the case.
Southeast
12-02-2013, 12:52
It's a universal truth that anyone packing lighter than you is a risk-taking fool, and anyone packing heavier than you is an obsolete dinosaur.
Agreed.. And anybody within a couple pounds of you is brilliant.
MDSection12
12-02-2013, 12:55
Agreed.. And anybody within a couple pounds of you is brilliant.
On the highway, anyone going faster than I am is an idiot, anyone going slower is a moron. :)
Gray Blazer
12-02-2013, 13:08
On the highway, anyone going faster than I am is an idiot, anyone going slower is a moron. :)
25120123456789101
Based on my limited observation of the ULers in my meetup group, they all tend to be type A, go go go types who not only go light, but go very fast. I have yet to meet a leisurely-paced ULer, though I am sure they exist. Our ULers always end up getting up earlier, leaving camp earlier, arriving earlier to the next campsite, etc., and can't be bothered with cooking hot meals, hanging out at the campfire, hiking with the group, etc.
If I were to lighten my load significantly, I am not sure I would be able to go any faster, or change how I cook, etc, but I bet I wouldn't be as worn out!
Gray Blazer
12-02-2013, 15:44
I predict that future hikers will be able to use solar powered helicopter drones to carry their gear.
MDSection12
12-02-2013, 15:53
I predict that future hikers will be able to use solar powered helicopter drones to carry their gear.
It's an interesting thought; some old timers talk about UL as if it's no longer hiking... But what happens when technology really fundamentally changes the game? The changes may some day be much more dramatic than from external to internal packs, canvas to cuben, leather boots to trail runners, etc.
I predict that future hikers will be able to use solar powered helicopter drones to carry their gear.
Be careful what you wish for:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-unveils-futuristic-plan-delivery-by-drone/
The future is not that far away.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
Different Socks
12-02-2013, 16:21
Just curious how regular this scenario happens. As a UL BPer I have yet to ask any hiker, heavyweight or not for anything because I didn't have it. I have heard this comment before yet it has never happened with me or to me. Would love to know just how regular this really is.
I have had them ask to use my stove, they have traded clothing for snacks/food and vice versa. They have asked to use my water filter, to listen to my music, to use one of my trekking poles(I use 2), to borrow a tripod, to use contact solution, to share my stove baked desserts, to use my extra clothing as a pillow, and much more.
This happens more often than you think.
Different Socks
12-02-2013, 16:24
'There is nothing wrong with packing light, but packing so light you need to count on the help of others on a regular basis when the going gets tough is stupid light."
AMEN!!
Different Socks
12-02-2013, 16:32
Exactly. There are many useful UL tenets. but I never saw "Mooch off of others to lighten your load." If I run short of water I will be thirsty, not dead. If I run out of fuel I will eat almost reconstituted food, not starve. If I don't carry a shelter I am a idiot and deserve to be miserable. If it rains and I don't have proper rain gear, I get wet. Experience is knowing where to push the limits and where to play it safe. And every one of these issues could impact the lightest or heaviest BPers. It has nothing to do with weight, it has everything to do with experience.
To be clear, I never said that any ULer deliberately carries so little they have to mooch off others. I am saying that many I have encountered just weren't prepared for any other possibility of what could happen beyond an average day out on the trail, especially when there can be grand swings in weather, conditions, how far to hike, water supplies etc. When these things happen and they do on all trails, some ULers seem to depend on the possibilty that others will help them out.
I am willing to assist them the first time, but if it happens again, well......
hikerboy57
12-02-2013, 16:40
the majority of "ulers" ive met on the trail knew what they were doing, had everything they needed.
MDSection12
12-02-2013, 17:35
I have had them ask to use my stove, they have traded clothing for snacks/food and vice versa. They have asked to use my water filter, to listen to my music, to use one of my trekking poles(I use 2), to borrow a tripod, to use contact solution, to share my stove baked desserts, to use my extra clothing as a pillow, and much more.
This happens more often than you think.
I don't doubt this happens, I just question who 'they' is... You seem to think it's ULers. I think it's novice hikers of all load sizes. Or maybe it's just needy people in general. Regardless, your experience is not a sufficient data set to be poo pooing the whole concept of UL.
I enjoy the fact that when I get to camp I have basic tools for the jobs that need to be done and that's it... It forces me to just sit and enjoy my time, rather than wondering which gadget is best for a certain task. Borrowing things from others would ruin that simplicity.
squeezebox
12-02-2013, 17:36
So be it hikerboy, just just don't mooch on my guide books, maps, or stove.
hikerboy57
12-02-2013, 17:43
So be it hikerboy, just just don't mooch on my guide books, maps, or stove.
no worries. im not ul myself. my base weight for 3 seasons is 16 lbs without food and water. i carry everything i need, and i need everything i carry. ive seen people carrying 40+lb packs that still didnt have what they needed.
for me its been a slow and steady evolution and evaluation over 30+years.i agree with the statement that its a lack of experience that leads people to go out unprepared.sure, theres the occasional bonehead who carries 15 lbs with food and water, even though hes never spent a night outdoors, but thats not very typical.between springer and neels gap, you'll run the gamut.
No pre-built shelter, jetboils, baked goods, filter, guidebook or trail for that matter. Good thing I bought what I needed. ;)
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7293/9281226916_fa90249db7.jpg
4eyedbuzzard
12-02-2013, 20:02
No pre-built shelter, jetboils, baked goods, filter, guidebook or trail for that matter. Good thing I bought what I needed. ;)
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7293/9281226916_fa90249db7.jpg
You brought the camera but left the water filter at home? What were you thinking? Get thee to a hiking store ASAP.
I did not worry that much about weight when I was younger. Now I'm grateful for the development of lightweight equipment. I believe in hike your own hike. What does bother me is people who go lightweight and then leach off of others. Or expect the person who humped the tent which has been gotten soaked to give up their shelter spot on a cold wet night. Because they chose to go ultra light and not carry a shelter at all. Hike your own hike but make sure you can take care of your own needs.
hikerboy57
12-02-2013, 20:27
I did not worry that much about weight when I was younger. Now I'm grateful for the development of lightweight equipment. I believe in hike your own hike. What does bother me is people who go lightweight and then leach off of others. Or expect the person who humped the tent which has been gotten soaked to give up their shelter spot on a cold wet night. Because they chose to go ultra light and not carry a shelter at all. Hike your own hike but make sure you can take care of your own needs.
how many times has this happened to you personally?
Good pick up Malto - 1234 if an alcohol stove is good enough for the mushers at the Iditerod... well fill in the rest.
Isn't a tarp pitched with a down side on the wind? Could it be folded under you depending how big it is?
I expect to get wet, cold, & hungry - its all part of being outside and being prepared.
FYI never had Remain Noodles is that a Zombie Apocalypse food? Those folks that mush all night in the snow, well I guess they have time to wait. I have used alcohol more than anything else, Last March 25,6,7 wind 40 to 50+ temp ~~15 it took an hour in the dark to get dinner warm then ate crunchy noodles. I use 100% pure ethanol well 95% once it sucks the water out of the air! TArp was 10 x 12 granite gear the big blue and white one it is super thin sil nylon weights 1 lb, the single pole pitch worked the best but since it touched my sleeping bag and condensed water made it damp/wet. I expect wet, cold, but I can fix hungry!! Some use this stuff and are satisfied, I just choose to carry a bit more weight.
Another Kevin
12-02-2013, 21:08
It's a universal truth that anyone packing lighter than you is a risk-taking fool, and anyone packing heavier than you is an obsolete dinosaur.
Guilty as charged. I'm an obsolete dinosaur. :p
No pre-built shelter, jetboils, baked goods, filter, guidebook or trail for that matter. Good thing I bought what I needed.
Gorgeous! I like going without guidebook and trail sometimes myself. But it would take a lot of convincing for me to go no-cook. And in the East we seldom get weather trustworthy enough even to decide to cowboy camp for the night, much less hike without carrying a shelter.
Oh I took a tarp, but there was no three sided lean to with people to debate with I am afraid. :) (my bad for not making more clear what I meant by pre-built shelter!)
squeezebox
12-02-2013, 23:18
You can have a comfortable trail or a comfortable camp. not both.
Seems to me the heavy hikers know the consequenses of their decisions, and accept them , heavy pack, slower hiking , comfortable camp. But some of the UL folks want and expect both ends,wake up, grow up, you just can not have both. I'm not your sherpa, I'm not here to carry your tarp, water filter , etc.
Somebody mentioned old fat guys without blister stuff . that's in the no tent region.
If you decided to go without a guide book,map, filter etc, live up to your decision , or change it.
MDSection12
12-02-2013, 23:29
Seems to me the heavy hikers know the consequenses of their decisions, and accept them , heavy pack, slower hiking , comfortable camp. But some of the UL folks want and expect both ends,wake up, grow up.
Seriously? You think it happens this way, but not the opposite? Wake up. We've all seen the guy with more weight than he can handle.
hikerboy57
12-02-2013, 23:31
Seriously? You think it happens this way, but not the opposite? Wake up. We've all seen the guy with more weight than he can handle.
but he forgot to bring his spork.:eek:
MDSection12
12-02-2013, 23:33
but he forgot to bring his spork.:eek:
Dinty Moore is best when drank directly from the can. :)
hikerboy57
12-02-2013, 23:34
Dinty Moore is best when drank directly from the can. :)
there ya go
no worries. im not ul myself. my base weight for 3 seasons is 16 lbs without food and water. i carry everything i need, and i need everything i carry. ive seen people carrying 40+lb packs that still didnt have what they needed.
for me its been a slow and steady evolution and evaluation over 30+years.i agree with the statement that its a lack of experience that leads people to go out unprepared.sure, theres the occasional bonehead who carries 15 lbs with food and water, even though hes never spent a night outdoors, but thats not very typical.between springer and neels gap, you'll run the gamut.
That is a great definition of a man who knows the border between comfortably light and stupidly light.I even dare to say that is the best definition of an experienced long distance hiker.
Tuckahoe
12-03-2013, 00:46
25128
..........
4eyedbuzzard
12-03-2013, 01:10
Dinty Moore is best when drank directly from the can. :) Comes in its own cook pot too. Just don't put it directly on a stove when its frozen or you'll get a lesson in steam powered mortars. Don't ask . . .
You can have a comfortable trail or a comfortable camp. not both.
Money can go a long way toward making that statement false.
MDSection12
12-03-2013, 09:03
Money can go a long way toward making that statement false.
So can a mental adjustment of the word 'comfortable.'
So can a mental adjustment of the word 'comfortable.'
True, but my point was more related to the fact that spending more money can often result in the same functionality with less weight. My hexamid is a good example of this. I don't feel like it provides less functionality for my typical use than the shelter I had previously which weighed almost three times as much but was less than half the cost.
SouthMark
12-03-2013, 10:21
The heavier my pack the more I like to camp, the lighter my pack the more I like to hike.
You can have a comfortable trail or a comfortable camp. not both.
Seems to me the heavy hikers know the consequenses of their decisions, and accept them , heavy pack, slower hiking , comfortable camp. But some of the UL folks want and expect both ends,wake up, grow up, you just can not have both. I'm not your sherpa, I'm not here to carry your tarp, water filter , etc.
Somebody mentioned old fat guys without blister stuff . that's in the no tent region.
If you decided to go without a guide book,map, filter etc, live up to your decision , or change it.
i am both comfortable on trail and in camp. My neoair is a dream. that is yet another myth, that ul hikers are miserable in camp, hardly. Would you be miserable with my gear at camp likely. But you also don't have thousands of miles of experience using this gear that has enabled you to go light and not suffer.
Some heavy hikers know and accept, others dont know any better.
So Bryce, I want to hear some FIRSTHAND stories of you carrying someone tarp, water filter etc. And just how many UL hikers have you actually met? I have met about a dozen true UL hikers, ten lbs or less base on the trail. And almost all of them were out west. these were folks like Scott Williamson, Swami, Rusticus and Blaze. They were all self sufficient, they had to be because as others pointed out earlier, they would go days sometimes without seeing other hikers. there were no Sherpas to carry their gear or to mooch off of.
And will you be doing a journal of your attempted thru. I look forward to following your acceptance as you go along.
hikerboy57
12-03-2013, 10:47
That is a great definition of a man who knows the border between comfortably light and stupidly light.I even dare to say that is the best definition of an experienced long distance hiker.
id like to point out it shouldnt take someone 30 yrs to get to my base weight. theres plenty of info and tips available to help reduce pack weight.most of my knowledge has been gained as ive hiked longer and longer distances which has only happened over the last 5 years.i can get lighter if i choose to spend some more money, but im comfortable with my kit, and thats all that counts.
id like to point out it shouldnt take someone 30 yrs to get to my base weight. theres plenty of info and tips available to help reduce pack weight.most of my knowledge has been gained as ive hiked longer and longer distances which has only happened over the last 5 years.i can get lighter if i choose to spend some more money, but im comfortable with my kit, and thats all that counts.
I don't have 30 years to do that, so I better get crackin'!!
I do believe I may evolve into having a easy trip heavier set up, with camp chair, bear canister, big cozy sleeping bag (love my BA Deer Park 30) vs a longer distance lighter set up, which is yet to be determined.
HikerMom58
12-03-2013, 11:19
The heavier my pack the more I like to camp, the lighter my pack the more I like to hike.
Now that's pretty cool... I agree!
I have personally met but have not hiked with a "stupid light" hiker. I did understand that this person accepted "help" from other hikers. I wasn't surprised to hear this at all.
I hiked with a "heavy weight" newbie hiker. It was fun to see how he learned ways to hike lighter. It was all about him observing & asking us questions. We were carrying 35 lbs with 4-5 days of food & water. He was carrying 50-60 lbs or more maybe.. can't remember exactly. We had the best time hiking together. :D
One ULer in my meetup group was pretty smarmy when he found out that my pack weighed 35 lbs for a 3 day trip (including food for 2 people and 2 liters of water)...I just kept my mouth shut.
This is my one problem with SOME ULers...they have an air of superiority about them. We also had two other ULers on the same trip who were cool about it.
I don't understand why people CARE so much about other people's pack weight. I certainly don't. Maybe its because gear is a common thing to talk about to other backpackers???
I'm usually at 40 lbs on day one with five days of food. Whenever I buy/replace a piece of gear, I try to get a lighter "whatever." If money were no object, I'd probably be 10 lbs lighter. But contrary to popular belief, I wouldn't hike more miles or have more fun. My pack/kit/gear hasn't changed in 5 seasons except for clothes. Oh, I got a new spork. Again, who cares. I do respect those who obsess about going/being UL and hiking 30 mile days, but when it annoys me is when(and its happened, probably to all of us out there) those people think they're "helping me out" giving advice on how to pack lighter, etc unsolicitedly. If someone is a newbie and they're obviously struggling, then fine. But if not, ZIP IT! If I have pack weight to spare and room, I'm probably filling it with a few beers;-)
If I have pack weight to spare and room, I'm probably filling it with a few beers;-)
That's why I got light gear.
HikerMom58
12-03-2013, 12:36
One ULer in my meetup group was pretty smarmy when he found out that my pack weighed 35 lbs for a 3 day trip (including food for 2 people and 2 liters of water)...I just kept my mouth shut.
This is my one problem with SOME ULers...they have an air of superiority about them. We also had two other ULers on the same trip who were cool about it.
Oh yeah, I read you on this... it really has nothing to do with UL, in this case. I've come to understand that is what really causes most all the "problems" between fellow backpackers... that air of superiority is a pain where ever it shows up. :rolleyes:
I don't understand why people CARE so much about other people's pack weight. I certainly don't. Maybe its because gear is a common thing to talk about to other backpackers???
I'm usually at 40 lbs on day one with five days of food. Whenever I buy/replace a piece of gear, I try to get a lighter "whatever." If money were no object, I'd probably be 10 lbs lighter. But contrary to popular belief, I wouldn't hike more miles or have more fun. My pack/kit/gear hasn't changed in 5 seasons except for clothes. Oh, I got a new spork. Again, who cares. I do respect those who obsess about going/being UL and hiking 30 mile days, but when it annoys me is when(and its happened, probably to all of us out there) those people think they're "helping me out" giving advice on how to pack lighter, etc unsolicitedly. If someone is a newbie and they're obviously struggling, then fine. But if not, ZIP IT! If I have pack weight to spare and room, I'm probably filling it with a few beers;-)
Aww... my new friend! :D I really don't care about spoons or sporks either. I've had my spork for years... works for me! :cool: Good post, bigben!
MDSection12
12-03-2013, 13:19
I don't understand why people CARE so much about other people's pack weight. I certainly don't. Maybe its because gear is a common thing to talk about to other backpackers???
I'm usually at 40 lbs on day one with five days of food. Whenever I buy/replace a piece of gear, I try to get a lighter "whatever." If money were no object, I'd probably be 10 lbs lighter. But contrary to popular belief, I wouldn't hike more miles or have more fun. My pack/kit/gear hasn't changed in 5 seasons except for clothes. Oh, I got a new spork. Again, who cares. I do respect those who obsess about going/being UL and hiking 30 mile days, but when it annoys me is when(and its happened, probably to all of us out there) those people think they're "helping me out" giving advice on how to pack lighter, etc unsolicitedly. If someone is a newbie and they're obviously struggling, then fine. But if not, ZIP IT! If I have pack weight to spare and room, I'm probably filling it with a few beers;-)
I think I do have more fun now that I lightened my pack for one simple reason; I now explore cool rock outcrop pings and things like that with my pack on, as I hike by. In the past I would put either put my bag down or not stop at all. Not a big deal, and maybe not even true for others, but for me it's an improvement.
That said, I rarely go all that light. My winter base is about 15 lbs, but I usually carry 35 lbs for a weekend... I like food and beer. :)
squeezebox
12-03-2013, 14:08
Malto you've found your spot in the middle of the pendulem. good for you. As a newbie I'm assuming there are UL and stupid light folks out there. If you're stupid light don't expect to "borrow" my stove, filter, map etc. If you're in trouble I'll help you off the trail.
garlic08
12-03-2013, 15:59
I've heard several outfitters say that it costs $100 for every pound you lose from your pack. I've heard AT hikers repeat that mantra, and the belief has shown up in several replies to this thread. If that were true, my drop from 30 to 10 pounds base weight would have cost me $2000. That's not even remotely true. My entire AT kit, at 10 pounds, cost me about $800, including a Marmot Helium 15F bag and Tarptent Contrail (both of which I still use five years and untold thousands of miles later). I just don't get the "lighter costs more" argument. It's exactly the opposite in my case (with the exception of the sleeping bag, but I now own an excellent sleeping bag). My pack cost $80, my shelter cost $200, my pad cost $20, a nice raincoat cost $70, my cook kit cost nothing (didn't use one), my knife cost a nickel (razor blade), etc.
You can have a comfortable trail or a comfortable camp. not both.
Not so in my experience, Grasshopper. My pack only hits 30# when fully loaded with extra food & water, it's usually well under 25#, and often under20#. I have everything I need for a very comfortable camp.
Is it just me, or does everyone's keyboard sloooooow down o WB???
keepinitsimple
12-03-2013, 16:18
Section Hiker Pride! Love it. I know what the OP means, it's actually a culture of arrogance that is offensive. I am better than you because of _____fill in the blank. Less weight obviously helps the over 40 club such as myself, saves on wear and tear. UL is also a way of looking at life, beyond the trail. Most of the pain in the a** types are about showing off what they can afford or know- like a secret society. I don't listen when the speak, but I remain polite. I want to talk to the guy or girl that made there UL gear, or know where the best thrift stores are. 20 somethings with the latest gear paid for by their parents don't impress me.
I agree with you, Garlic about the cost. I just wish I had known I would really, really, really love backpacking like I do. I would have skipped right to buying good, lightweight equipment off the bat. Instead, I entered it cautiously, and bought cheap stuff at Dick's. I could have bought and EE Quilt for 200, a Tarptent for 300, a nice pad for 100, and a GoLite Backpack for 100, and would have had a pretty lightweight setup for $700.
I agree with you, Garlic about the cost. I just wish I had known I would really, really, really love backpacking like I do. I would have skipped right to buying good, lightweight equipment off the bat. Instead, I entered it cautiously, and bought cheap stuff at Dick's. I could have bought and EE Quilt for 200, a Tarptent for 300, a nice pad for 100, and a GoLite Backpack for 100, and would have had a pretty lightweight setup for $700.
Yes. I don't get how people say it takes thousands of dollars to be lightweight. You could get the things you listed and be very comfortable.
Yes. I don't get how people say it takes thousands of dollars to be lightweight. You could get the things you listed and be very comfortable.
I have spent at least that and then some, and now at 12lb base weight, but it's typical. Every hobby sucks you in like this! Golf is another one where you buy things at least 2-3 times instead of getting the better stuff the first time.
Older hikers will remember when 50 lbs was normal, and we didn't complain about it, and many of us hiked 20+ miles/day with packs that heavy.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. At the time, in my teens and 20's it made me strong as hell. But I wouldn't do it now (40 years later).
My current pack weighs 15-20 lbs, although I hiked 500 miles with a friend (also mid 50's) who still carried his old 20th century gear, and he kept up with me every step. We did the 500 miles (Virginia AT) in 27 days. Don't try this at home. We called it the TOFU hike. Two old farts, uphill.....
MDSection12
12-03-2013, 18:09
I'm at 15 lbs base with a 3 lb Kelty pack from a thrift shop ($25), a 2 lb Sierra Designs sleeping bag from SteepandCheap ($120), a Superfly ($110), hammock ($60), and a CCF pad ($7). Basically the rest of my gear is DIY and if it's not it was under $20 (Mora, Zelph pot)... So call it $400. :)
Older hikers will remember when 50 lbs was normal, and we didn't complain about it, and many of us hiked 20+ miles/day with packs that heavy.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. At the time, in my teens and 20's it made me strong as hell. But I wouldn't do it now (40 years later).
My current pack weighs 15-20 lbs, although I hiked 500 miles with a friend (also mid 50's) who still carried his old 20th century gear, and he kept up with me every step. We did the 500 miles (Virginia AT) in 27 days. Don't try this at home. We called it the TOFU hike. Two old farts, uphill.....
In long distance hiking extra weight may not kill anybody but it may lead to premature arthritis and joint problems later in life. A long distance hiking is difficult on its own and any measure that makes it easier ,I welcome it weather it is lighter gear or any other measure.
nastynate
12-03-2013, 18:45
I took my 4 year old boy on a 3 day, 2 night trip this summer. 1 mile the first evening, 4 miles the 2nd day, and a3 mile walk out the last morning. I ended up carrying him in my arms the last 2 miles. I sure am glad my pack (with all of his gear too) was 20 lbs! Being lightweight let's me carry his gear as well as extra comforts for short days. Like lots of smores and a kindle. Hurrah for tarp tents, xlite pads, and fluffy goose down.
I sometimes wonder if those that cry loudly that going light or ultra light is "so expensive" do it as an excuse. "I would go light (or ultra light), but it costs so much money!" Like some sort of mantra, convincing themselves, or bemoaning the pride that keeps them with the gear they already have.
Then again, maybe they are factoring in the cost of what they already have, and the cost of what they bought on impulse thinking they were going lighter, and then realized was the wrong piece of gear for them.
I am by far not the lightest, though not the heaviest either. I go lighter when I can, and it makes sense, but it's not an obsession, and I don't have disposable income to throw at something just because it's newer or lighter.
I have a pack that's almost 3.5# (Deuter ACT Lite 30 +10) that I got used in a trade for a pack I paid $35 for (a Marmot 30L that was too small for me), a 2.5# sleeping bag (USGI patrol bag) that I traded a Mountain Hardware Lamina that was too small for me for the whole system (patrol, cold weather and bivy; then traded the cold bag for a second patrol bag), a Z-rest short that I got on sale for I think $20, I tinker with making stoves out of material I find for fun (beer can stove, Nimblewill in 22ga stainless, coffee can based on some of Zelph's stuff...). Not 100% sure what my base weight is but I am pretty sure it's under 20#, and I would be happy to shrink total with food, water and fuel for 5 days to 25# or less, but it's not something that keeps me up at night either.
It costs nothing to not take something. Most people can drop a large percentage of their pack weight by just not taking so many "extras" or "just in case".
I could replace my normal 3 season gear for about $1200
Quilt - $150 (spent 135)
neoair Xlite - $150
shelter - $200 MYOG
Pack - $175
clothing $300
cookset - $100
Misc - $100
Total this is $1200 for an 8 lb base weight. To date I have over 6000 miles with only the neoair being purchased as a replacement. in this same time I have gone through 10 pairs of shoes totaling about $700. This is likely on the lower end of what a typical backpackers gear would run basically due to having less stuff and cheaper gear in some cases like my pack, an MLD Burn. I will admit that my shelter would run 3x if I were to buy the closest commercially available model, a cuben Solomid with bug inner.
This gear keeps me as dry in camp as anyone else. I sleep on a 2.5"airmat. It is short but I put my shoes below my feet. I can cook great food when I chose to cook. I use alcohol which may be slower but I am setting up or packing up camp in that time so no big deal. Bottom line few compromises and I have never begged for gear
MuddyWaters
12-03-2013, 23:14
People that have gotten their packs lighter, and love the freedom it provides, are just enthusiastic to help others.
Some come across as condenscending, or superior attitude apparently, but generally, just overly enthusiastic.
Lbs are cheap to get rid of, relatively speaking. When you are down to shaving ounces, that gets expensive.
$100 per lb would be a bargain. Try $30 per ounce.
Plenty of folks spend $300 to save 10 ounces on a pack. Or $500 to save a lb on a shelter.
There are other benefits besides low wt, but just the same. It can get expensive when you try to go much below 10 lbs and not give up any comforts.
If your into simple silnylon tarps, frameless packs, and blue foam pads, your kit will cost much less.
hikerboy57
12-03-2013, 23:22
People that have gotten their packs lighter, and love the freedom it provides, are just enthusiastic to help others.
Some come across as condenscending, or superior attitude apparently, but generally, just overly enthusiastic.
Lbs are cheap to get rid of, relatively speaking. When you are down to shaving ounces, that gets expensive.
$100 per lb would be a bargain. Try $30 per ounce.
the easiest way to lose weight is to carry just enough food and water, and learn that its okay to be little hungry(youre almost always hungry anyway). it was great the few times i got into town with absolutely no food left.and theres no reason to carry 3L of water when sources are running every few miles in the spring.on shorter section hikes, i always bring extra food "just in case", and always end up carrying it out.
yeah, i'll prolly do it again. its not easy to get it "just right"
MuddyWaters
12-03-2013, 23:39
the easiest way to lose weight is to carry just enough food and water, and learn that its okay to be little hungry(youre almost always hungry anyway). it was great the few times i got into town with absolutely no food left.and theres no reason to carry 3L of water when sources are running every few miles in the spring.on shorter section hikes, i always bring extra food "just in case", and always end up carrying it out.
yeah, i'll prolly do it again. its not easy to get it "just right"
If the temps are in 50s-60s, and shady, I often do~ 10 miles without taking a sip, even though Im carrying 1L+.
Last summer in 95 F temps in NM, I did about 7 miles with 3000' elevation gain, and drank only about 2" out of a 1L bottle. But my saliva was getting a bit thick toward the end.
Water is comforting to have, but its heavy, and its not necessary to carry as much as people think. Drink up at sources, and find out how much you really need to go X miles. I too have found I dont need that much.
This is what people did many years ago in the days before 3L camelbacks and 2L platys.
This only works if you are sure of the sources, distances, and locations obviously.
I could replace my normal 3 season gear for about $1200
Quilt - $150 (spent 135)
neoair Xlite - $150
shelter - $200 MYOG
Pack - $175
clothing $300
cookset - $100
Misc - $100
Total this is $1200 for an 8 lb base weight. To date I have over 6000 miles with only the neoair being purchased as a replacement. in this same time I have gone through 10 pairs of shoes totaling about $700. This is likely on the lower end of what a typical backpackers gear would run basically due to having less stuff and cheaper gear in some cases like my pack, an MLD Burn. I will admit that my shelter would run 3x if I were to buy the closest commercially available model, a cuben Solomid with bug inner.
This gear keeps me as dry in camp as anyone else. I sleep on a 2.5"airmat. It is short but I put my shoes below my feet. I can cook great food when I chose to cook. I use alcohol which may be slower but I am setting up or packing up camp in that time so no big deal. Bottom line few compromises and I have never begged for gear
While there is nothing wrong with your choices, I don't think I would call those the lower end at all. You can get those prices way down if you shop sales and close outs, make some of your own gear, and don't go for certain top of the line materials. Cuben is still really expensive. Sure, it's strong and light, but costs a load. You can get a brand new G4 pack for at least $50 less than the $175 you put up for a pack, shoes, get last year's models for $50 or under, clothes shop sales and close outs, also check thrift stores, cookset can easily come in way under $300.
Did I maybe misunderstand and you were trying to say you could spend $1200, but didn't spend that much to get your current weight/set up?
Also, while I can appreciate that some like the thicker air mats, and I have considered them, some use the thin foam not just for weight and cost. I sleep better on just my Z-rest, to the point I don't use a bed at home, no matter how many I try, more than a night or two on one, and I start aching every morning.
squeezebox
12-04-2013, 04:00
like Muddy waters said camel up at the water holes as much as you can hold and you don't need to carry as much water. In a way you are still carrying it anyway.
I didn't read everyone else's posts, but just my 2 cents--no, I don't care about super light hiking. I do care about my comfort and my feet and the strain on my 5'4" body, so I hike as lightly as I can safely get away with. It is much more fun me that way. Yes, its more expensive and not as comfortable in other ways, since I do leave some things behind--but at the end of a long days travel, it is worth it to be conservative with my weight.
MDSection12
12-04-2013, 12:06
like Muddy waters said camel up at the water holes as much as you can hold and you don't need to carry as much water. In a way you are still carrying it anyway.
This is probably the most important thing I've learned here at WB. I've been working on water management and I'm getting pretty good. I drink a liter or more at every source and only carry about a liter. I then watch the coloration (or lack of) of my urine to gauge my hydration and drink accordingly. By doing this I can drink, and therefore carry, as little as possible but without worry of dehydration. Thanks WB. :)
the easiest way to lose weight is to carry just enough food and water, and learn that its okay to be little hungry(youre almost always hungry anyway). it was great the few times i got into town with absolutely no food left.and theres no reason to carry 3L of water when sources are running every few miles in the spring.on shorter section hikes, i always bring extra food "just in case", and always end up carrying it out.
yeah, i'll prolly do it again. its not easy to get it "just right"
Muddywaters already said it, but it is worth repeating (paraphrasing). It's all well and good to manage weight by carrying "just enough" food and water, but only do it if you know what you are doing given the terrain, distances, water sources, weather conditions, etc. While one is unlikely to starve, it's a real struggle to ascend rough terrain when the body is depleted of fuel. More importantly, if one reaches true dehydration, he is going to be done until someone brings him water, or until he can very slowly reach some. So the circumstances warrant different approaches when hiking relatively easy terrain with many stream crossings, vs. boulder hopping a long ascent, vs. hiking in the desert, etc.
Gonecampn
12-04-2013, 13:23
Those folks that mush all night in the snow, well I guess they have time to wait. I have used alcohol more than anything else, Last March 25,6,7 wind 40 to 50+ temp ~~15 it took an hour in the dark to get dinner warm then ate crunchy noodles. I use 100% pure ethanol well 95% once it sucks the water out of the air! TArp was 10 x 12 granite gear the big blue and white one it is super thin sil nylon weights 1 lb, the single pole pitch worked the best but since it touched my sleeping bag and condensed water made it damp/wet. I expect wet, cold, but I can fix hungry!! Some use this stuff and are satisfied, I just choose to carry a bit more weight.
My Jetboil is one of my trail "must-haves"!! It packs small and doesn't add too much weight. I do not carry the canister that came with it, I just use my titanium cup. On a couple of occasions I've been cold, soaked and hungry. It's nice to fire up the JetBoil and have hot water in 1.5 minutes!
snail2010
12-04-2013, 13:36
The AT is all about "hiking your own hike". I keep the weight down because lighter is easier for me. My 2010 thru-hike I started out with 50 lbs..lol way too much for me! By the end I was down to 30, and now I try not to carry more than 35lbs for the sake of my body and comfort level. If you are comfy carrying 35+ then more power to you! Every one of us hikers has an opinion, your own is the one that really matters. Happy hiking!
hikerboy57
12-04-2013, 13:36
the easiest way to lose weight is to carry just enough food and water, and learn that its okay to be little hungry(youre almost always hungry anyway). it was great the few times i got into town with absolutely no food left.and theres no reason to carry 3L of water when sources are running every few miles in the spring.on shorter section hikes, i always bring extra food "just in case", and always end up carrying it out.
yeah, i'll prolly do it again. its not easy to get it "just right"
Muddywaters already said it, but it is worth repeating (paraphrasing). It's all well and good to manage weight by carrying "just enough" food and water, but only do it if you know what you are doing given the terrain, distances, water sources, weather conditions, etc. While one is unlikely to starve, it's a real struggle to ascend rough terrain when the body is depleted of fuel. More importantly, if one reaches true dehydration, he is going to be done until someone brings him water, or until he can very slowly reach some. So the circumstances warrant different approaches when hiking relatively easy terrain with many stream crossings, vs. boulder hopping a long ascent, vs. hiking in the desert, etc.agreed .