Is there really so much animosity towards dogs/their owners on the AT?

I've decided to walk sections of the AT next April- probably about a month's worth, and decided to research to make sure the trail permitted dogs. I have to admit, I was pretty taken aback by all the backlash against dogs and dog owners, and evidence of a dog owner culture I've never even heard of before.

I live in Colorado and am blessed with access to several trails. I normally hike with my two dogs (a lab/golden mix and a german shepherd) weekly, and we've done a couple one week hikes. I consider myself pretty responsible and considerate. And we encounter hikers regularly, as well as several other dogs (I'd say one in every four people has a dog). I've never seen any negative reaction to having a dog on the trail. Racking my brain, there was only one time I woman was very clearly petrified when she saw my dogs, so I called them away, they came, and she was apologetic.

I've always thought I was a very responsible dog owner- meaning my dogs are in my control at all times. However, by the standards on these boards, I shouldn't be allowed to have a pet. Here's what I don't get:

- My dogs are never on-leash. They respond very well to voice commands, they come when I call them. They respond to heel, to wait, to a host of other commands reliably. But I don't keep them on-leash when I'm walking and I don't restrict them to a heel on the trail either. They freely go off-trail, though they stay close and responsive. I guess I can kind of see that this might be a slight threat to the wilderness, except no more than any other animal, or indeed person who gets of the trail to do his or her business. Indeed, I'm sure I could practice with them and have them follow closely on a leash, but it sounds so cumbersome! Any slight pull as we all make it up the path and suddenly everyone's balance is out of whack. I'm sure it's significantly less fun for the dogs, for myself, and also for others. Paths are often narrow. I've always thought it was an advantage for dogs to be off the trail, so as to give people more room to easily pass.

- Packing out my dogs' poop? Seriously? The first time I read it, I thought it was a joke. I mean, obviously if they go on the trail, it needs to be picked up and moved out of the way, but how many animals and people are crapping in the forest, and the dogs' poop is particularly detrimental?

These two aspects of the expected culture sound non-sensical to me. I'm not bull-headed about behaving in one way just because I have been. But is there really that much of an anti-dog bias on the AT? And are these two policies really regarded as indispensable for responsible canine behavior? If so, is the PCT culture noticeably different? I don't particularly relish the stress of everyone staring dagger eyes at me. But I'm also not going to follow "unspoken rules" that seem non-sensical and counter-intuitive.

(I know the PCT is harder on dogs. I don't plan on walking the whole thing. Just until one or all three of us has had enough.)

I doubt the PCT is harder than the AT on dogs. The PCT is graded for horses. There are some places on the AT most dogs have to be carried.

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Originally Posted by AT_Anna

I've decided to walk sections of the AT next April- probably about a month's worth, and decided to research to make sure the trail permitted dogs. I have to admit, I was pretty taken aback by all the backlash against dogs and dog owners, and evidence of a dog owner culture I've never even heard of before.

I live in Colorado and am blessed with access to several trails. I
- My dogs are never on-leash. T

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Does that include the trails where dogs must be on leash in the Boulder CO area? :) (Golden Gate Canyon SP comes to mind, Indians Peaks Wilderness as well. And so on. ).

40% of the AT it is mandatory to have your dog on leash.

Please be respectful and keep your dog on the leash where it is mandated. Both on the AT and when I see you in the local Boulder area trails! :)

This link may be helpful:
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hiki...king-with-dogs

dont worry about the tirades here. its really not that much of an issue on the trail. just be courteous.you dont have to pack out your dogs poop unless its been eating a lot of sunflower seeds.

I have no problem with dogs on the trail as long as they aren't aggressive and are under some sort of control. Verbal is fine.

Personally I'd rather share a shelter with a dog than a farting,snoring old man any day, lol.

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Originally Posted by lunchbx

Personally I'd rather share a shelter with a dog than a farting,snoring old man any day, lol.

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Hey, I resent that remark!

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Originally Posted by lunchbx

Personally I'd rather share a shelter with a dog than a farting,snoring old man any day, lol.

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I dont snore.

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Originally Posted by lunchbx

Personally I'd rather share a shelter with a dog than a farting,snoring old man any day, lol.

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My dog farts and snores too. :D

Packing out dog poo would seem a bit extreme, except perhaps in alpine environments. The biggest complaints I've heard or had issues with myself are dogs who are out of sight of their owners / not under control, and dogs that are allowed to bother hikers or their belongings in shelters. I don't like anyone's dog laying on my gear or begging from me while I'm eating.

Mags,

Of course I generally follow the rules. That was the whole point of doing research on this in the first place. I recognize that there are on-leash areas and no-dog areas for a reason, even if that reason is just so that people who really don't enjoy running into dogs can enjoy nature too. Often there are hazards or delicate wildlife to worry about.

I will confess to flouting the rules recently at Royal Arch though, partially because I've read conflicting things about dogs needing to be on a leash (it says you don't need one online, but there's a pretty clear sign to the contrary at the trailhead), partially because I hadn't run into even one other person on the whole first half of the trail, but mostly because it was simply too steep in places for me to feel comfortable without the use of both my hands to scramble up rocks. In those sorts of situations, I'm pretty comfortable with putting safety first until I feel grounded and realizing I just may get a ticket.

No need to be pointlessly erm... dog-matic.

(Sorry. Heh. Couldn't resist.)

40% is a lot of trail. Anyone know about what percent of the PCT is restricted to no dogs or leashes only?

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Originally Posted by AT_Anna

40% is a lot of trail. Anyone know about what percent of the PCT is restricted to no dogs or leashes only?

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Even more. Most of California (due to all NPS land and state parks) , Crater Lake NP (IIRC), Rainer NP, Cascades NP with even harder logistics to shuttle around the dog. Then there's the dry and hot areas in So Cal that many dogs do not like.

The leash rules on the AT are very benign. Overall, the AT is very friendly for dogs (cooler, wooded environment with easy logistics and support for the few places where dogs are not allowed).

http://www.pcta.org/about_trail/faqs.asp#AreDogsPCT

Not being dogmatic...just being realistic. Too many people think the dog rules do not apply to them or their dog. Being a good dog owner who never puts their dog on leash (except when someone brings it in legal areas when I brought it up. ;) ) , that does not apply to you of course. :)

girl, no worries. you sound like a very responsible dog owner. i hike with two dogs, and in the past, as many as 5. all off leash. i have NEVER had anybody say anything to me on the trail. it's only arm chair hikers on the internet who like to pretend they know everything.
that said, i don't stay in shelters because i hate them so nobody else has to put up with my dogs regardless. as for the leash law. well.. i don't take them through the smokies and they won't go to baxter state park, but other than that, they are always off a physical leash. the only exceptions are road crossings and towns. and that is because i don't trust humans. don't believe half the crap on this site. most of them don't hike.

oh, mags.. it's not just the dog rules.

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Originally Posted by kanga

oh, mags.. it's not just the dog rules.

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It's why I stopped doing group hikes. Too many people took advantage of my good nature and brought their dogs off leash, ignored the RSVP I had to in place keep trip numbers down, etc.

Not sure why leash laws can be ignored..but, well, there you go.

But, I'm just an arm chair hiker. :D

In any case, enjoy the AT. Be courteous, tent vs using a shelters (Shelters aren't fun anyway) , and honestly try to follow the leash laws.

I love dogs and don't mind responsible partnerships of responsible owners and dogs on the trail - I've also been snarled at, put up with incessant barking and so forth. I also have caught stray dogs for people, returned them to their owners etc. - who smile and say, oh, thanks man, so sorry. This is tiring and shouldn't happen. I also really don't like finding strays on the trail because I feel compelled to rescue them - it's really not why I'm out there. I also think a lot of hikers that bring their dogs are a little selfish - more for them and less for the dog - and I worry about the dogs - their hydration, paws, health, etc. All this said, I'm supportive of dogs on their partners being on the trail as long as they follow leash laws (as Mags has mentioned) and are on their very best behavior. Sounds like the OP falls into this category.

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Originally Posted by Papa D

I love dogs and don't mind responsible partnerships of responsible owners and dogs on the trail - I've also been snarled at, put up with incessant barking and so forth. I also have caught stray dogs for people, returned them to their owners etc. - who smile and say, oh, thanks man, so sorry. This is tiring and shouldn't happen. I also really don't like finding strays on the trail because I feel compelled to rescue them - it's really not why I'm out there. I also think a lot of hikers that bring their dogs are a little selfish - more for them and less for the dog - and I worry about the dogs - their hydration, paws, health, etc. All this said, I'm supportive of dogs on their partners being on the trail as long as they follow leash laws (as Mags has mentioned) and are on their very best behavior. Sounds like the OP falls into this category.

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come meet my dogs. they'll change your mind.

I have hiked with my old mutt but always on a leash...she is dumb as a clam and would chase a chipmunk off a cliff!! I don't use a collar either, just a harness...65 pounds of dog hanging by a collar choking to death just does not seem too good to me...she really has run off cliffs!!! :D :D :D

I love the domestic animals on the trail.
There was the really nice lady and her dog I met early last year on the AT:
Attachment 14984
There was a cool dog at Kincora named Noah:
Attachment 14985
There was a really cool dog packer at Damascus:
Attachment 14986
My experience was positive with dogs on the AT.
At least on the AT you see people packing with dogs.. out on the left coast they do things a little different:
Attachment 14987

The vast majority of dogs on any trail are not under the control of their owners. This is what causes all the rant.

Hmmmmmm..... DOGSDOGsDOgsDogsdogs.....

Most pet owners (regardless of species or breeds) seem to think that their pets reign supreme. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, but it seems to be the norm. Most (those that I have ever met) will rave on and on about their pets:
- How well they behave on leash/off leash,
- How well bred they were,
- How they were the pick of the litter
- How they will never attack,
- How well they heel on command,
- How smart they are
- how well they read others minds/intents...
- How incredible their expressions are
- How much better they are than a human companion

Very rarely do I meet a pet owner with a stupid, snapping, growling, misbehaving dog. I know this because they all tell me otherwise. And when there is dog trouble, it is very rarely the animal's fault, because they never behave like this - Don't believe me?? Just ask the owner....It is always another animal (or another pet owner) or someone looked threatening or an extraordinary circumstance that their beloved pet couldn't help but act aggressive or defensive.....Or better yet - Well sure, it states a leash is required, but c'mon...not my dog, she's so well-behaved they don't mean me.....Just look at her....Sheesh... You anti-dog people are something else!!!!!

It seems a lot like driving on the freeway - Everyone in front of me is an idiot and everyone behind me is a jackass.

OK so how did I develop my take. Well for starters for owning dogs for more than 30 years, for growing up with dogs, for breeding dogs, training dogs and selling dogs. regardless of where I am, I take heed of any dogs out and about, not under control. I have been bitten, snapped at, jumped on deeply scratched on arms, legs and my trunk, had vehicles jumped on and scratched be some of the worlds most well-behaved dogs, I have had my kids bitten, scratched and pounced on by the most wonderful dogs you could ever meet (their just not used to kids running around or They must have thought the 4 year old was going to attack... Oh better yet, they only "jaw" when they play..Blah blah blah...)

All dog owners are correct in that nobody knows their dog like they do. In fact, I know so little about anyone's dogs, that I tend to treat them all the same - Especially when they run, off-lead, up to me or my kids. I treat them like I would treat any other unknown animal bounding up to me in the woods with caution, with respect and with my guard up and if they dog doesn't respect my boundaries, they will get a knee, a kick, a poke with a hiking stick..Anything to remind them to respect my boundaries.

And if someone ever treats my dogs that way, I understand..After all, I am a dog owner.

Not following posted and accepted rules for responsible dog ownership on the trail leads to a dislike of dogs in general.

i took my dog on my hike this past year, and for the first two weeks, i kept her on a 6' leash at all times that i kept strapped to my pack. but then we started hitting rocky or uneven sections more frequently, and we interfered with each other's pace and balance too much if we were tethered together. i kept her leash tied in a knot on top of her pack so i could grab it if i needed to.

i was extremely apprehensive when i began my hike BECAUSE of all the misinformation i got here on the WB dog forums. then, once i was out in the woods, i realized that 99% of everybody on the trail loved my dog, and no one was opposed to her being out there. i was even told that she was sort of adopted as the "team mascot" of the group of four guys i wound up hiking with for a while.

i didn't pack out her crap. she went off trail. she drank from water sources, but she waited for my command and she drank downstream. if there was no downstream (crappy water sources, ground springs, etc.), i would fill my nalgene and pour it into her dog bowl and she would drink from that.

go out and have fun. :) it sounds like you're one of the responsible ones.

let it be known that other than one dog that did belong to a thru-hiker (that EVERYBODY HATED), all of the misbehaved dogs that i met belonged to day hikers. two golden retrievers approached us barking in a dominant but non-aggressive way, and would not listen to their owner to back off. the other was a german shepherd that was leashed, and thank God he was because had he not been, we would have been history.

There are a lot of thruhikers with dogs and for the most part they are well behaved. It's just the few that aren't that give the rest a bad name.

As long as you sleep in a tent and don't allow your dog near other hiker's food, beds or water sources, you'll be fine.

What you might try is a 20' lead. That gives your dog more room to run and to make their own way across rocks and streams, but you can reel it in when you need to. We hike with a dog on a 30' lead, and it takes some work to keep it from dragging, (you have to pay attention) but Ben has learned to not get tangled with trees.


As to the PCT - it really is much harder on dogs than the AT. Why? 1) long distances between water sources, 2) very very hot, 3) volcanic soil that tears up dogs pads 4) sandy soil that tears up dogs feet, 5) snow/ice that tears up dogs feet, 6) difficult river crossings. We saw a lot of people who started the trail with dogs. By Yosemite they were all gone.

I always thought it would be hard hitchhiking with a dog....especially in the rain. Turns out drivers often stop because they feel bad for the dog...not the hiker !!!!

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Originally Posted by Toolshed

Hmmmmmm..... DOGSDOGsDOgsDogsdogs.....

Most pet owners (regardless of species or breeds) seem to think that their pets reign supreme. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, but it seems to be the norm. Most (those that I have ever met) will rave on and on about their pets:
- How well they behave on leash/off leash,
- How well bred they were,
- How they were the pick of the litter
- How they will never attack,
- How well they heel on command,
- How smart they are
- how well they read others minds/intents...
- How incredible their expressions are
- How much better they are than a human companion

Very rarely do I meet a pet owner with a stupid, snapping, growling, misbehaving dog. I know this because they all tell me otherwise. And when there is dog trouble, it is very rarely the animal's fault, because they never behave like this - Don't believe me?? Just ask the owner....It is always another animal (or another pet owner) or someone looked threatening or an extraordinary circumstance that their beloved pet couldn't help but act aggressive or defensive.....Or better yet - Well sure, it states a leash is required, but c'mon...not my dog, she's so well-behaved they don't mean me.....Just look at her....Sheesh... You anti-dog people are something else!!!!!

It seems a lot like driving on the freeway - Everyone in front of me is an idiot and everyone behind me is a jackass.

OK so how did I develop my take. Well for starters for owning dogs for more than 30 years, for growing up with dogs, for breeding dogs, training dogs and selling dogs. regardless of where I am, I take heed of any dogs out and about, not under control. I have been bitten, snapped at, jumped on deeply scratched on arms, legs and my trunk, had vehicles jumped on and scratched be some of the worlds most well-behaved dogs, I have had my kids bitten, scratched and pounced on by the most wonderful dogs you could ever meet (their just not used to kids running around or They must have thought the 4 year old was going to attack... Oh better yet, they only "jaw" when they play..Blah blah blah...)

All dog owners are correct in that nobody knows their dog like they do. In fact, I know so little about anyone's dogs, that I tend to treat them all the same - Especially when they run, off-lead, up to me or my kids. I treat them like I would treat any other unknown animal bounding up to me in the woods with caution, with respect and with my guard up and if they dog doesn't respect my boundaries, they will get a knee, a kick, a poke with a hiking stick..Anything to remind them to respect my boundaries.

And if someone ever treats my dogs that way, I understand..After all, I am a dog owner.

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+1. I have 3 young dogs, oldest 2 years, and generally they are well behaved though extremely playful. Do I trust them? Yes. 98% of the time? Yes. 100% of the time? No. That's why there's a fence around my yard, why they have collars, and why they have leashes.

Both well-behaved dogs and well-behaved humans are a joy to be around :).

Unfortunately, neither are 100% predictable.

I grew up with dogs, but haven't owned one as an adult, so I don't think I can really understand the bond between a dog and its owner.

Being objective is very difficult regarding this subject.

I'd have to say that if you bring your dog and he misbehaves, you should be willing to accept any consequences (same if the animal should get lost, run over a cliff, etc.)

Be a good owner and most people will be fine with your dog.

I like any dog that doesn't chase me around my mail truck!

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Originally Posted by kanga

girl, no worries. you sound like a very responsible dog owner. i hike with two dogs, and in the past, as many as 5. all off leash. i have NEVER had anybody say anything to me on the trail. it's only arm chair hikers on the internet who like to pretend they know everything.
that said, i don't stay in shelters because i hate them so nobody else has to put up with my dogs regardless. as for the leash law. well.. i don't take them through the smokies and they won't go to baxter state park, but other than that, they are always off a physical leash. the only exceptions are road crossings and towns. and that is because i don't trust humans. don't believe half the crap on this site. most of them don't hike.

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Kanga said it all. I just wish I could have said it as well.

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Originally Posted by Sierra Echo

I like any dog that doesn't chase me around my mail truck!

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They just want head pats ya know

One thing to bear in mind (although much less true in heavily-peopled areas such as the AT) is that you'll see more wildlife if the dog stays home.

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Originally Posted by kanga

come meet my dogs. they'll change your mind.

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what do you mean change my mind? I said that there are great dogs on the trail and their are dogs (an owners) that should stay home - that's about as "both ways" as it gets. Which way should I change my mind? :-?

One note to hikers when dogs are around - Keep your food out of reach (dogs get "hiker appetites", too :D). Had it happen to me once.

Maybe there should be a thread on "Thruhiker bagging" - keeping your food out of the reach of hungry Thruhikers. :-?

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Originally Posted by RetroGear

One thing to bear in mind (although much less true in heavily-peopled areas such as the AT) is that you'll see more wildlife if the dog stays home.

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yep - I agree with this.

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Originally Posted by kanga

i have NEVER had anybody say anything to me on the trail. it's only arm chair hikers on the internet who like to pretend they know everything.

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So I ran into 5 dog/owner pairs while out running last weekend. All dogs were off leash. All dogs were away from their owners. All dogs ran at me and showed enough "curiosity" that I stopped and walked around them. 4 time the owners said nothing and I said nothing. These owners are like you: causing a problem, indifferent about it, and choosing to pretend your loose pets bother nibody. The fifth time I told the owner her dog should be leashed and she got a little snippy. Her dog picked up the attitude and snarled. I assume she thinks I the a-hole in this situation. Lucky for me she didn't have enough dogs for their pack mentality to take over, like you would have.

Both of these responses are typical of owners who don't leash their dogs when local regulations require it.

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Originally Posted by 4eyedbuzzard

They just want head pats ya know

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Well they should have said something!

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Originally Posted by RetroGear

One thing to bear in mind (although much less true in heavily-peopled areas such as the AT) is that you'll see more wildlife if the dog stays home.

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And you'll see less bears in camp.

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Originally Posted by Toolshed

Hmmmmmm..... DOGSDOGsDOgsDogsdogs.....

Most pet owners (regardless of species or breeds) seem to think that their pets reign supreme. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, but it seems to be the norm. Most (those that I have ever met) will rave on and on about their pets:
- How well they behave on leash/off leash,
- How well bred they were,
- How they were the pick of the litter
- How they will never attack,
- How well they heel on command,
- How smart they are
- how well they read others minds/intents...
- How incredible their expressions are
- How much better they are than a human companion

Very rarely do I meet a pet owner with a stupid, snapping, growling, misbehaving dog. I know this because they all tell me otherwise. And when there is dog trouble, it is very rarely the animal's fault, because they never behave like this - Don't believe me?? Just ask the owner....It is always another animal (or another pet owner) or someone looked threatening or an extraordinary circumstance that their beloved pet couldn't help but act aggressive or defensive.....Or better yet - Well sure, it states a leash is required, but c'mon...not my dog, she's so well-behaved they don't mean me.....Just look at her....Sheesh... You anti-dog people are something else!!!!!

It seems a lot like driving on the freeway - Everyone in front of me is an idiot and everyone behind me is a jackass.

OK so how did I develop my take. Well for starters for owning dogs for more than 30 years, for growing up with dogs, for breeding dogs, training dogs and selling dogs. regardless of where I am, I take heed of any dogs out and about, not under control. I have been bitten, snapped at, jumped on deeply scratched on arms, legs and my trunk, had vehicles jumped on and scratched be some of the worlds most well-behaved dogs, I have had my kids bitten, scratched and pounced on by the most wonderful dogs you could ever meet (their just not used to kids running around or They must have thought the 4 year old was going to attack... Oh better yet, they only "jaw" when they play..Blah blah blah...)

All dog owners are correct in that nobody knows their dog like they do. In fact, I know so little about anyone's dogs, that I tend to treat them all the same - Especially when they run, off-lead, up to me or my kids. I treat them like I would treat any other unknown animal bounding up to me in the woods with caution, with respect and with my guard up and if they dog doesn't respect my boundaries, they will get a knee, a kick, a poke with a hiking stick..Anything to remind them to respect my boundaries.

And if someone ever treats my dogs that way, I understand..After all, I am a dog owner.

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One reason I have a CC Permit for self defense against any life threatening or potential injury.

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Originally Posted by ALLEGHENY

One reason I have a CC Permit for self defense against any life threatening or potential injury.

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It's easy to talk tough on the internet. It would be more impressive if you posted something constructive.

While I don't have a problem with dogs on trails I really wish they would be leashed. About three months ago I encountered several unleashed dogs while hiking. Though none tried to bite or otherwise bother me one did follow me out to the trailhead where it then proceeded to run into traffic. I spent several minutes attempting to coax it off the busy road before its owners (who were within sight but stunningly oblivious to the situation) decided to step in and corral their wayward pooch. Leash laws are not only in place to protect people from dogs but to protect the dogs themselves.