I understand that the IAT shelters in Canada require a usage fee... Anyone know what the cost of thru-hiking it would turn out to be? (for esitmated shelter use alone)
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I understand that the IAT shelters in Canada require a usage fee... Anyone know what the cost of thru-hiking it would turn out to be? (for esitmated shelter use alone)
Another good reason not to use shelters.
I believe shelter use is required on parts of the IAT in Newfoundland and Quebec (mainly inside established parks similar to the US GSMNP) I've emailed someone from the IAT's equivilent to the ATC and asked them to join us so that accurate and up-to-date info will be available regarding this trail and its associated services.
The Ice Age Trail (in Wisconsin) rules state that you must either stay in shelters or tent at shelter areas, and either way you have to pay. The website was very insistent that all users had to reserve and pay; however, using the reservation system was a nightmare. The one upside was that when we made better time than we'd anticipated (it's an easy trail) they let us transfer our reservation from one site to another, even though the website says that's not allowed. A 4-night hike cost me $60.
Jane in CT
Pay to backpack? People actually participate in such a program? Let's herd the non-paying anti-shelterists in a straight line with no deviation allowed and like Ed Abbey said, we'll all have fun in the woods but in a clockwise direction ONLY.
You'd think in a place so far north that the park officials would let people fend for themselves without interference from the Nanny State. I guess a backpacker sleeping somewhere without authorization will awaken the litigious sleeping giant that is Park Policy so beware all future hikers! You'd better bone up on the statute and footnoted legalese before even laying out your gear. Meanwhile the millioneth noisy jet passes overhead and the IAT is socked in an all-day acid rain. Wait! There's an unauthorized hiker who hasn't paid his fee sneeking thru an adjacent clearcut trying to access the Ice Age Trail!
Back to reality: gsingjane, could you spell out their reasons for charging? What was your experience? Would you do it again?
LOL.. BTW, I think this is supposed to be the International Appalachian Trail forum, not the Ice Age Trail.
Snowmobilers pay a fortune in registration fees for their sport, as do hunters. In fact, hikers are about the only group that expects to government to set aside land for their use and have trails but expect the general fund to pay for it.
To me, use fees make sense.
But that, I'm sure, is a minority opinion.
Going Into the Sun Road! I think it costs $25 per car. If all the AT was like Glacier, it would be worth the $750...
You're going to pay one way or another. Either through taxes or fees. There's infrastructure in NP's, paid trail crews, plowing etc...The AT is a bargin thanks largely to the volunteerism.
IAT shelters cost $20.00 per person per night, $10.00 for camping and lean-tos. Also reservations must be made. OR you can buy a "passport" which gives you access to all the sherlters etc and I don't "think" they require reservations.
I have been trying to do some pre-planning to thru hike the IAT in 2009 information is hard to come by.
Canada ought to allow U.S. citizens to use their parks for free just to be nice, eh.
I wrote to the Contact email for the IAT about your question:Quote:
Hi Renee,
To answer the question about shelters on the IAT, I believe there are some in Quebec, but there currently aren't any in New Brunswick or Newfoundland. Newfoundland's IAT is still under development. There are plans to build shelters, but we're not there yet.
If the questions don't come too fast and furious, I can answer questions about the IAT in Newfoundland.
A contact person for Quebec is Eric Chouinard ([email protected]).
For Maine, and the IAT overall, contact Dick Anderson ([email protected]).
As for New Brunswick, I don't have contact info at the moment.
Paul Wylezol ([email protected])
Chairperson
IATNL
I have been lookng for the passport costs and can't seam to fnd it right now but I think it was around $200.00 bucks. The benifit of the passport is that you don't need reservations. I was shocked at this too after all the trips on the AT and no fees, well thats not really true. Motels, Green Mountians, Whtie Mountians, a whole bunch of hostels and my membership with the ATC.
So on second thought I really don't mind paying a little to support areas to hike. The IATC only charged me $10.00 for my membership which I gladly paid to support the trail.
For day hikers and section hikers in New Hampshire, many of parking areas at the trail heads in the White Mountain National Forest have a fee for parking. One can pay by the day or purchase weekly or season permits (or if one is an old codger like me) obtain a "Golden Age Passport" which entitles the bearer to park for free.
Many of us who would rather "live free" (remember the state motto), don't like for the NFS to charge for what we think is ours. :)
A bit off topic, but some info about the ice age trail
"One of the virtues of the Ice Age Trail is its involvement with the diverse communities along its route. It was designed to connect communities, not avoid them. In fact, approximately 57% of Wisconsin residents live within 20 miles of the Trail. The Ice Age Trail was also designed very specifically to preserve and protect Wisconsin’s cultural and glacial heritage."
Knowing the above, it makes sense (for private property/ community relations reasons) for haing designated camping sites with fees on the ice age trail.
At first, when I saw your post, I thought, okay, another IAT:rolleyes: post and someone else whining about fees.:rolleyes:
You posted some facts I find quite interesting and I'm glad you did. Thank you.:)
It is hard to say about the fees, I do understand the idea behind them (that you pay one way or the other) and as a backpacker, or just a citizen in general, I'm not childish enough to expect to get something for nothing. The issue about the IAT (and this is the WI one) is that the state has outsourced the function to a company called ReserveAmerica, which makes reservations all over the country for different parks and campgrounds, and they do not have the proper information to actually do backpacking reservations. I cannot tell you how many phone calls and emails it took to get the whole thing straightened out, and then as it was it didn't really work out well. The system is set up for car campers and doesn't accommodate backpackers really at all... their database didn't have the shelters in it, so I had to work backwards from the maps and sort of a trial and error process with existing car sites. We had to readjust our trip plans again and again, because I would make the first couple of reservations, then find out the next place was booked, and then we'd have to start all over again (the customer service rep was about ready to hunt me down and shoot me by the end of it).
The other thing about the "pay for stay" system is that you get totally locked in to doing a certain number of miles, and only a certain number of miles, a day. You have a reservation at "North Unit Shelter #3" for Thursday night, and if you don't wind up making it, or overshoot it, then what do you do? The IAT turned out to be a really easy trail compared to the AT, and we made 15-20 miles a day easily (we're not that good of hikers, really), so we "wasted" our last night's reservation by just moving on and away from the IAT altogether.
Finally, and I'm hopeful this isn't true of the whole IAT, the shelters were absolute PITS. Disgusting, dank, dark cinderblock huts with dirt floors, one of which was stuffed with used toilet paper when we got there. For the price we had thought things would be pretty deluxe, and it sure was disheartening to see how degraded they were. Since we weren't staying in them anyway I know it shouldn't have mattered, but honestly they looked like where "America's Most Wanted" would be set in the near future, if not that very night.
Especially if you are tenting, it seems to me it would make tremendously more sense to just pay a set user fee per day and then just stay where you wind up, just like you do on the AT. We also saw virtually no other backpackers during our entire trip, so if the aim is to apportion scarce space, perhaps that isn't so much of a problem as is thought.
Would I do it again Tipi? Hmmm, hard to say. I have to say, we really, really appreciated the ease of use of the AT when we came back to it. In general, the IAT is very cool and interesting, and it certainly was an experience to plan and execute a hike on a trail that has an entirely different paradigm. But in general, there's really got to be a better way.
Jane in CT
But it all costs money. MATC has to spend $200,000 a year, most of it raised through donations from volunteers like us, to keep the trail open and protected. The money funds a trail crew, six caretakers and ridgerunners, a part time staff person, and general costs. You can help. Just open www.matc.org and make a contribution. It will help keep walking in Maine free.
The Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust will be sending out its biannual donation letters in a couple of weeks. WE presently are seeking $500,000 so we will have a kitty to buy options when our negotiations with land owners bear fruit. Our vision is the protection of 85,000 acres of mountains and mountain valleys in the high peaks region surrounding Saddleback. The initial half million will help keep the land trust alive, give us credibility in our negotiations, and provide seed money for the major fund-raising that will have to follow.
Trail building and protection isn't cheap. But the alternative is the gradual loss of the wildness that makes the Maine section of the trail special.
Beat the crowds. Just open www.matlt.org and contribute.
Weary, MATLT president.
So, really, what does anything related to the NST in Wisconsin have to do with this thread? Maybe I'm beginning to regret suggesting an IAT forum.:(
I'm sorry, I guess I shouldn't have even brought up the Ice Age Trail in Wisconsin, I just thought the experience might be somewhat relevant to another trail system that requires shelter reservations and payment and point out some of the possible pitfalls with same. I am sorry it was OT and wish you luck in finding the information you seek!
Jane in CT
Don't sweat it. Your post was as you said somewhat relevant.
I can't see why anyone who genuinely wants to hike a trail anywhere would be detered by fees. Such a person should find another place to hike rather than complain.
It would seem to me places which charge fees are places were one can and should expect better facilities and a better experience generally unless of course someone gets bent out of shape by fees and there's a simple remedy for that as I said before.
We will accumulate International AT information in time I'm sure.
TIPI.. I think the AT is unique because it is federally protected and I think even some funding. Might be mistaken on the funding part but it is funded by the ATC, local clubs, corporate partnerships etc.
In the few spots that I did have to pay a caretaker it didn't bother me at all and if it were necessary to save the trail I would pay nightly but I don't think that will be an issue any time soon. Well, at least as long as we continue to support the trail.
Everyone needs to remember, nothing is free!
Backpacking and human-powered foot travel is all about spontaneity and freedom, take away these two attributes by charging a nightly fee and requiring user permits and we'll all become impotent dayhikers and sightseeing tourists. I know eventually every square inch of this country will be developed or paved over, but before that happens backpackers and hikers will help participate in the taming of the wilderness by agreeing to pay fees to camp and permits to walk.
As a dim vestige of the old mountain men, my kind will be a footnote in the history books of government land control and private corporate land aquisition.
People talk about the high cost of maintaining wilderness and yet wilderness is mandated to be a place where there is little or no sign of man's permanent presence. How much then could it cost to leave a place alone? A good corollary are car drivers. In North Carolina and Tennessee we pay taxes for road use and gas but there is no daily charge to drive unlimited miles on 99% of the highways. If the state of Tennessee mandated daily tolls on all roads, people would riot. I just don't understand why backpackers don't feel the same.
I can hear future conversations: "I think I'll go out and live in the woods for a couple of weeks." "Sounds great but I hope you have an extra $300 for the fees."
I think we can all agree that no matter what the trail if a fee is charged collection would almost have to be voluntary. Everyone just needs to support our trails to their own ability. For some it is time and labor others by opening up their check book.
I'm not opposed to SMALL fees or an annual statewide or all national parks etc pass. I love snowmobiling in VT, NH, ME; But if hiking costs became like annual snowmobile trail pass fees ($100/sled AFTER $22 registration for VT) that would seem unfair. We do subsidize parks with our taxes (and we should!). After that SMALL parking fees etc seem reasonable. As does voluntary support of clubs, etc who maintain trails and advocate for us. Lately I've been hiking lots and all over new england. I'd hate to have to pay big fees in every state when I merely dabble here and there. I wouldn't mind paying an annual fee to hike the AT or the LT covering all fees etc since I'm taking advantage of lots of resources & hidden efforts that make that possible. But that's me. I bet many thru hikers would not think it's right to pay say $200 to thru hike the AT any more than they'd wanna pay $5 or $10 every day hike or weekend they went out to hike. I'd rather pay it in taxes and hike as much as i want, sorta like using the freeway (though some tolls help cover the costs-imagine if you had to cover the entire cost with tolls!)
paying to hike certain trails, (perhaps even the AT) is perfectly logical and fair. charge those who would use our trails and parklands for recreational purposes a reasonable fee to raise revenue to protect those lands from mining, logging and development.
Uh, how about oxygen? Eventually, with vast areas covered in air pollution, I guess only the rich will have clean purified air to breath in houses outfitted with fancy, expensive air cleaners. For the last 200,000 years of modern human existence, we lived on the land like we breathed the air, for free. While it's true tribal groups fought over territory and huntings lands, a great percentage of land was available for roaming and free living(just had to watch out for the grizzlies).
We've made a human choice to over-populate the country(and the world), and so we sit around and actually contemplate paying money to sleep in tents in the wild lands surrounded by tamed lands covered in sprawl, highways and millions of other people. How times have changed. Wouldn't the solution be a reduction in our numbers instead of queueing up(form a line, buddy)to pay a nightly fee and get a permit?
So, would you therefore like to see a nightly tent fee on the AT? How much? How about a flat one thousand dollar fee(with the necessary paperwork and permits)per one thruhike? Makes sense. And one more thing, how about listing every campsite you'll be staying at during your thruhike? Get a map, get a data book, get out the calendar, and have fun. Welcome to 21st Century Backpacking.
no but perhaps an honor system where you fill in your info and deposit the fee along with a copy of the permit into a lockbox. allow ridgeunners/rangers the authority to ticket those without permits making it pointless not to drop the $5 or $10 or whatever in the box at the begining. have these stations set up at each end of GSMNP, SNP, the Whites etc.... sure there will be those who try to avoid paying, and some will get away with it. such is life. overall i think you're making it out to be mission impossible. when you start looking at all the ways something can get done rather than all the ways something can't get done I think you will find you get more done.
perhaps you should run for office. perhaps then, someday, you'll be in a position to exterminate all the useless breathers.
Anatomical, modern human: Between 150,000 and 200,000 years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human
We ran into the fee/reservation issue when hiking the Great Divide Trail in Canada. Rather than pay a per night fee in the National Parks, we bought an annual National Park pass and an annual backcountry pass. Total was about $140 per person. We paid again for campsites in some of the Provincial Parks ($5 or $8, depending on where we were.) A six week hike cost us about $200 each. Not bad, considering.
Reservations were necessary in the busy areas of the national parks because of the sheer numbers of people who want to camp in the prime areas. We were at one backcountry campground that had room for 100 people, but most only had five or six tent sites. It's the same situation at Glacier or Yellowstone - in order to reduce crowding and ensure campsites, you make a reservation. Otherwise there would be 40 people vieing for the prime sites. Plus there is the bear issue - better to have people concentrated in an area with a bear pole or bear box than scattered and sleeping with their food. If you don't want to deal with reservations, then you go elsewhere and take your chances.