http://www.wabi.tv/content/news/Body...483507431.html
please do not attempt to ford...
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http://www.wabi.tv/content/news/Body...483507431.html
please do not attempt to ford...
he attempted to swim it not ford it
Yep. Instead of doing a planned early morning crossing, he seems to have gone straight across right when a ton of water was flowing. Predictable outcome.
It looks like it can be forded until they get out in the deeper sections, by that time no choice but to swim. Water this early in the year would have been too cold, without a wetsuit he would have lost control of his limbs in minutes. Add in big variations in daily water level due to demand for power and makes it a risky idea.
he also didnt take the advice of a law enforcement officer......
I can't think of any bodies of water I would voluntarily enter that far north that early in the season.Quote:
Originally Posted by peakbagger
Good ol' hypothermia... rarely gets credit as it's often followed by some other calamity much more interesting.
Bit like drunk driving into a tree. The tree is clearly the cause of death but...
Sucks fer his family.
It's hard to overstate how fast cold water disables a person. When i was in the Coast Guard I saw a man made utterly helpless in a minute or less. My crew had to drag him bodily into our boat. It's sobering to think of even decades later. (Police boat got him to shore and treatment where he recovered.)Quote:
Originally Posted by peakbagger
That info is decades out of date. Dam releases can happen at any hour of the day.Quote:
Instead of doing a planned early morning crossing,
Ice out on lakes in the region was just happening when the deceased decided to go swimming. I used to WW kayak on occasion and the best water is with ice chunks floating in it in the spring. Even with the right gear getting dumped is quite a surprise. I have helped to haul folks out of the water in the spring who lost total control of their arms and legs in minutes. The upstream power plants are dispatched remotely by an operator somewhere far away, they play various power markets and that wall of water can come down the river anytime. There are also recreational releases that are somewhat timed for the whitewater rafters but that's just part of it.
a ford can, without warning, become a swim at that crossing - stop defending poor choices from your past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Wolf
Good to know, thanks for the clarification.Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ aka Teej
On May 8th. Wow. Dumb.
When I passed through at the end of August in 2012 and had to wait 2.5 hours for the afternoon canoe, I spent time exploring the riverside trying to figure out how one could actually ford across like I had read in older accounts. Never did see a good spot as everything in the middle looked to be over my head and looked to involve a lot of swimming. Water surface did look calm and the water level was consistent the entire time, so I did wonder if a strong swimmer could actually do it. But when I hear about people fording which implies actually walking across, I have a hard time believing it's possible, but maybe my timing was just really bad.
I offer the family my condolences.
Ill think twice about not waiting for that canoe now...Didn't know it was actually a risk..Shows how ignorant I still am
Cold water and exhaustion kills when panic sets in, in water temps he prolly would’ve made it no problem, although a little further down stream than most might like.
thing is it looks totally doable - the problems come in if an unplanned release from one of the 2 upstream dams happens and catches you mid-river - then all bets are offQuote:
Originally Posted by Gambit McCrae
The traditional thru hiker typically was northbound and went across in late summer. Depending on the winter, the lake storage was probably low so they dam owner timed their releases to match the demand curve on the grid that ramps slowly during the morning to mid morning. Therefore someone camping on the bank would see a fairly quiet river with many mid stream sandbanks. The water was a lot warmer than early May so folks tried and most succeeded and the unfortunate ones who dies or needed rescued just were unlucky.
Yep, the risk is exactly why the ATC provides a canoe ferry in the first place, due to hikers drowing over the years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambit McCrae
The water was high. He told authorities he was going to swim. Thats what article says. Thats all we know. No info on preparedness. He knew this ahead of time and knowingly tried.Quote:
Originally Posted by D2maine
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/ne...-20180525.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by MuddyWaters
This post sugggests that more than one hiker — prior to Michael Camiso — have drowned crossing the kennebec over the years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain Man
I do not believe that to be true.
Alice Ference, 1985Quote:
Originally Posted by rickb
After my friend and I crossed in the canoe on August 5th last year, we stood on the bank looking for possible places to possibly ford.
Just upstream there seemed to be a string of rocks in shallows that stretched about 3/4 of the way across, but then gave way to deeper water.
I can see where that spot would tempt a hiker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by peakbagger
These events are again why the canoe ferry is available and the schedule info well documented.
Risky for that time of day, time of year, probably exactly where he attempted the ford, in today's ADHD soundbites only get er dun gotta go go go impatient demanding I watched a YouTube video so now know how to do whatever - build a house, fly a helicopter, etc I know better culture, and...It can and has been forded safely otherwise.
There are YouTube vids on how to fly a helicopter, run a bulldozer, drive a tractor trailer, become your own dentist(never again needing to pay for a professional with 8 yrs accredited education), climb Mt Everest(without O2),...
This could have been some of us making comments here, if we acted rashly.
on a bright sunny day when a teenager almost drowned in less than 2 mins in a small pond at first wading into cold calm freshwater then having to swim less than 15 ft attempting to retrieve a favorite Mepps spinner stuck on a log in early April in NJ. Barely got back to the bank only 30 ft away after loosing all energy and almost all control of my limbs. Two friends were ready to jump in for me. Cold water saps energy quickly.
you are correctQuote:
Originally Posted by Deadeye
from this article..
https://thetrek.co/crossing-the-kennebec/
“Every year we have some people who successfully ford across, but we have a higher number who try but do not make it across, and several of them have very dangerous experiences. Every year for the last nine years I have seen at least one or two who would have died without intervention from myself or another hiker.”
in warmer water temps...ugh, blew the shift...another demerit!Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketsocks
Blame the technology, that's what I always do.Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketsocks
As someone who once stood in an empty Kennebec river after Harris station shut the water off while we were training to be white water guides, I know first hand how fast that water comes up when the water is turned back on. I will never ford that river. There was a fisherman's drowned in that same area because the water was low and he wandered across. When the water came back up, he was swept away. It was around the same time as Alive Terrence.
i've forded 6 times. good stuff. always around 7 am
This is Michael Camiso’s sister. My brother was not inherently reckless, stupid or “rash.” He was a disabled veteran, who suffered from a TBI resulting in mental illness and early onset dementia. He had stunning moments of clarity. Before his injury and illness he was a brilliant, beautiful, healthy man who competed in triathlons. He trained in far harsher conditions in Fairbanks, AK, and undertook scouts and Rangers training. While he was ill at the time that he journeyed for the SECOND time along the Appalachian Trail, he was trained, fit and ready. He trained for HOURS a day for months before he began, and he trekked farther than many have had the pleasure of enjoying before he tragically lost his life trying to ford the river.
There was no ferry the day that my brother lost his life. A police officer reportedly told told him that the ferry could not run because the river was at flood levels. My brother then informed the police officer that he intended to cross on his own. This officer told my brother that he couldn’t, that it was too dangerous. Michael was a paranoid schizophrenic, an unfortunate byproduct of his brain injury. He reacted confrontationally, erratically in conversation with the officer, BECAUSE he was a paranoid schizophrenic. What did that officer do, in the face of a clearly irrational man, who told him that he was going to cross even though they told him he couldn’t? They LEFT. My brother was a human being with a tragic illness. He was also a hero with the type of fortitude, spirit and heart that most men NEVER achieve. EVER. My family is utterly heartbroken, and the world lost a beautiful man with an indomitable spirit. Unspeakably tragic, particularly where authorities apparently knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that an irrational, paranoid man intended to enter the raging waters of a river that he surely could not survive, and they did nothing.
This is Michael Camiso’s sister. My brother was not inherently reckless, stupid or “rash.” He was a disabled veteran, who suffered from a TBI resulting in mental illness and early onset dementia. He had stunning moments of clarity. Before his injury and illness he was a brilliant, beautiful, healthy man who competed in triathlons. He trained in far harsher conditions in Fairbanks, AK, and undertook scouts and Rangers training. While he was ill at the time that he journeyed for the SECOND time along the Appalachian Trail, he was trained, fit and ready. He trained for HOURS a day for months before he began, and he trekked farther than many have had the pleasure of enjoying before he tragically lost his life trying to ford the river.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogwood
There was no ferry the day that my brother lost his life. A police officer reportedly told told him that the ferry could not run because the river was at flood levels. My brother then informed the police officer that he intended to cross on his own. This officer told my brother that he couldn’t, that it was too dangerous. Michael was a paranoid schizophrenic, an unfortunate byproduct of his brain injury. He reacted confrontationally, erratically in conversation with the officer, BECAUSE he was a paranoid schizophrenic. What did that officer do, in the face of a clearly irrational man, who told him that he was going to cross even though they told him he couldn’t? They LEFT. My brother was a human being with a tragic illness. He was also a hero with the type of fortitude, spirit and heart that most men NEVER achieve. EVER. My family is utterly heartbroken, and the world lost a beautiful man with an indomitable spirit. Unspeakably tragic, particularly where authorities apparently knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that an irrational, paranoid man intended to enter the raging waters of a river that he surely could not survive, and they did nothing.
Thank you for providing missing details.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikkicam
There is not a person here that is not sorry about your brother.
Everyone just wants to learn from others experiences, and it takes discussion to do that. While such can come across as insensitive to the victim or family, its purpose is to help others avoid similar. There always will be people who choose to cross on their own.
Don't take anything you read here to heart. White Blaze is full of finger-wagging, self-appointed experts who are quick to criticize and pontificate without benefit of actually knowing the facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikkicam
Every guidebook says do not ford.
There are posters at every lean-to north and south of there that say do not ford.
There are signs in several spots on both banks that say do not ford.
We're told the hiker was spoken to in person and told not to ford.
I believe the authorities did what they could, so let's not blame them.
While we shouldn't blame them, I don't believe that it has been established that they did all they could. It is often (always?) their responsibility to evaluate the mental health of a individual and make a judgement call if they are a danger to themselves, and take appropriate action including hospitalization for evaluation by a mental health professional. I think it's fair to review their procedures and training to see if there was anything that could or should have been done in cases like this to hopefully avoid future tragedy. I think it's safe to say if they took such a action this man would still be alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ aka Teej
Good history here of the crossing:
(And doyle, while controversial, has crossed more than any other person most likely. He claimed about 40 times around 15 yrs ago)
https://thetrek.co/crossing-the-kennebec/
Every guidebook says do not ford. < Citing ATC and MATCQuote:
Originally Posted by Starchild
There are posters at every lean-to north and south of there that say do not ford. < MATC
There are signs in several spots on both banks that say do not ford. <MATC
We're told the hiker was spoken to in person and told not to ford. < LEO (?)
I believe the authorities did what they could.
Aside from standing on both banks 24/7/365 doing physical and mental evaluations, what more could be done?
On what grounds?Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ aka Teej
That's some thinking there, perhaps that is what should be done, but that seems to be a bit too far to me but to each their own. It would certainly speed up with rescues to have them on site, on both sides of the river, I'll give you that. Perhaps they could help hikers cross, and relieve the bottleneck during the crowed times when the bubble comes thru. (this was a bit sarcastic, but your reply seemed to be also)Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ aka Teej
You seem to be missing the point that they met him and he relayed his intentions to them, was warned about the deadly conditions and insisted that he was going to do that anyway.
I think it's incumbent for the authorities to be able to do a preliminary assessment at the time that he reveals his determination to cross the Kennebec after he hears that the water is too high, fast and cold to make it at this time of the year (not that it's good at any time). I do believe such a prelim assessment as to if they are a danger to others or themselves is usually part of such a job and their obligation (perhaps it's not in Manie, but it is in other states).
If it's not part of their job, we should consider including it and get them the training, if it is we should look as to why that didn't prevent this death. Yes we need to look at what could have been done, if anything, since the authorities did have this opportunity.