Thru hiker needing guidance

[Meriadoc]

One point I haven't seen made:
You can always change your mind in a year. You don't want to job hop, but this choice is not forever. It sounds like either one would work for you. So don't stress too much.


As regards making the decision, try this gedanken:
Pick option A. Live with it for a few hours. See how it feels. If possible, wait overnight.
Pick option B. Live with it for a few hours. See how it feels. If possible, wait overnight.
Often we have already made the decision but just need something to bring that decision to light whether it be discussion with a friend or picking an option and realizing 'this doesn't feel right.'

Good luck! Whatever you choose will work out!

[Dogwood]

How open were you regarding your reasons for wanting to move to Denver? The reason I ask is that if they realize that you are into outdoor activities and really want to be near the mountains, they could be using that information as leverage to negotiate a lower salary. I'm not advocating being dishonest in any way but I've found that in this type of situation it is often better to keep detailed personal information to a minimum. Just a thought since you seem pretty open about things here. That can sometimes backfire.

One big red flag that you mentioned is that the potential employer was willing to give you a name of someone who waived his non-compete in order to work for a competitor. Well, revealing the name of a former employee who "screwed over" the company is a pretty big ethical lapse in my opinion. That would enter into my thinking about whether I'd want to work for someone who would release that kind of information to others.

Yup, my take too. Although the company may just be seeking to protect it's intellectual property with having you agree to a non disclosure or non compete agreement. I'm not so sure about you being provided an actual name of a former employee under your situation as a potential new hiree though. I don't know enough though to make an informed judgement.

.... I was very open about "man I love it here! The mountains are great!!! I can't wait to go hike blah blah blah!" and yeah I think he is lowballing me on the fact that he was hoping I would love the area so much that I would just jump on it.....man I guess I wish I wasn't so excited when I went in for my interview!! And apparently, that dude didn't "screw over" the company, he had a good relationship with the company and his family moved to a place where a direct competitor was, so they waived his non compete. I don't know though. Sounds fishy to me.

Two aspects. One which follows over from RN's post. Think of it from an employer's perspective. They want you to be happy in Denver(a happy you often translates in their minds as you having a greater likely hood to be more productive at the company) BUT if you gave the impression that you were moving to Denver mostly to goof off in the mountains hiking, skiing, etc they might question your employment or initially offer a lower compensation. What might also be playing into their decisions is your work record like the duration you stayed with your past employer(s). They will look at your age, marrital status, etc as well in arriving at these types of conclusions about your commitment, stability, and long term feasability of employment with the company. All these things factor into job/salary offers. BE mindful of the image you project! You had what it took to get job offers which says a lot though! You also are in a great field with lots of avenues to pursue IF that's really what you want. This is also a very competitive job market where the potential employee pool is quite large meaning you may have to compete with more highly educated and experienced engineers than perhaps yourself for employment. They know this too so may have themselves believing they can afford to lowball you. LOL In their minds they may not even be thinking they low balled you. They may think that they gave you a fair offer.

I don't see myself in indy for the long haul, but who knows. I mean this company just seems so friendly and nice here in indy. But a new city also sounds very appealing. I just know that the type of work I do will directly relate to a large amount of my happiness. Looks like the company here in Indy will make me happy, but the location not so much. The mountains and terrain excite me, but the job and the way they are handling things is making me feel uneasy, which is not a good start.

Again, your happiness is important, obviously to you, and most likely your employer, BUT readjust your perspective to the potential employer's perspective - ask yourself questions from their pt of view - Will they be happy with what you can potentially provide? long term? with your salary requirements? etc. What is the likely hood that you will stay with the company long term(especially mindful to remember if it is a long term position you are applying for!)? When you want something from someone whether you're in sales, your GF/spouse/SO, a LEO, gov't, whatever, ALWAYS keep things in terms of what you can do for them not what you can get from them, especially when initially seeking that something! You primarily focused on, especially in the initial stages of negotiations, what YOU want and not being clear about how the company will benefit(be realistic but don't be afraid to sell yourself), will result in you being lowballed or not being offered a meaningful long term position(if that's what you want!).

I know much of this was best being known before seeking employment but it could help you in deciding on where you want to live and work. Here's another thing it seems you should get clear. Are you more career minded(work) at this stage or more live(play?) minded? What's your comfortable balance between the two? Nobody but you can answer that!

I'm telling you this based on my experience as both an employer who was directly responsible for hiring employees and as one who has been an employee or one who has sought employment BOTH on a temporary/until the project is finished basis and on a long term many yrs of employment with the same company basis.

I'm trying not to offend but be honest so that perhaps it could be of some help. I'm telling you I detect a large amount of wishy washyness instability lack of concrete career goals/direction which may concern potential employers and factor into employment, benefits, salary, etc. IF they find out. You come off not knowing what you want in both your career as an engineer or in life(where, how you want to live). That can be a red flag to an employer. If I can detect it here so will potential employers in sit down face to face interviews and going forward as you work in the company. You had what it took to get an EE degree and get job offers though which says a lot.

It seems, FIRST AND FOREMOST, you should get clear WHAT YOU WANT, disregarding anything about the current job offers, WHAT YOU WANT YOUR LIFE TO BE ABOUT, WHAT YOU WANT TO CONTRIBUTE! Sit down on a park bench, go outside, take a long walk, do an overnighter in the woods with a journal writing it down focusing in on these broad life goals, interests, persoanl strengths/weaknesses, etc. GET CLEAR with what you want IN LIFE regardless about job offers so YOU can come to a decision about the job/job location. NO ONE HERE can do that for you. This is another time to invest in yourself just as you did in the 4 yrs of college, just as you did completing a thru-hike,......NEXT CHAPTER - know thyself!

I want to hear more about what you learned, particularly as it applies to yourself - knowing yourself - from doing an AT thru-hike?

[Marta]

What's your life like in Indy when you're not working? In your spare time are you already doing the kinds of things you are hankering to do? (This is a rhetorical question, not one I expect you to answer online.) Do you have a good group of friends you get out hiking with, rock climbing with, adventuring with? Colorado has a tremendous outdoor culture. If you make the slightest effort, you'll be having a great time exploring unbelievably beautiful places every day that you're not working. And you might well be able to set yourself up to cycle to work. Colorado is a cycle-friendly state.

The money issue does't seem that significant to me. If the company in Denver is low-balling you, you can always leave them in 6-12 months for a higher bidder, or bargain them upwards by making yourself someone they would hate to have leave.

Another bit of advice: Beware of the high-paying job--it can lead you into the temptation to bind yourself to that income. One of my sons works in the oil industry, with a lot of people who make astronomical sums of money. Most of them have proceeded to acquire debts and obligations that will keep them slaving away for the rest of their natural lives. (One guy who makes >$300k/year owns 100 racehorses. He has to work at least 25 days a month to break even.) No matter how much money you make, it is always possible to spend even more.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do!

[Marta]

Ditto what Dogwood said...

And what Mags said.

BTW, a year and a half ago I took a massive pay cut, left a gorgeous house, went far, far away from family and friends, and generally created a whole lot of work for my husband and myself to move from Charlotte, NC, to NW Montana. We still have enough money to live on and we live in one of the most beautiful places on this earth. Our spare time is spent hiking, snowshoeing, and skiing. This way of life isn't for everyone, but it is definitely right for me.

[Siarl]

Ever hear of the saying, "Can't see the forest for the trees"? Well, sometimes, looking at the forest is too much to take in as well. Looking at the forest and trying to make decisions is enough to overwhelm even the best of us. Take life one day at a time. Consider some of the things you want to do in the long term and then make short term plans that will get you there. In between all that, go hiking, camping, more little adventures, anything that will lift your spirits.

[Marta]

As they do so often, The Onion nails it:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/hor...-down-r,35102/

[4eyedbuzzard]

. . . Another bit of advice: Beware of the high-paying job--it can lead you into the temptation to bind yourself to that income. . . (One guy who makes >$300k/year owns 100 racehorses. He has to work at least 25 days a month to break even.) No matter how much money you make, it is always possible to spend even more.

Which beats the doggie snot out of working 25 days a month and still not having the time nor being able to afford to do much anything - and slowly go bankrupt as well. Seriously, I've had low paying jobs and high paying jobs. The high paying ones are much, MUCH, better. You take nicer vacations, eat better food, don't face the pressure and stress of how you are going to pay monthly bills - the list is endless. Just don't fall into the trap of living right up to the edge of your income. Always put in to your 401K or TSP at least what you employer matches plus another 10%. Because unless you are a very unusual person and "make it big", one day you will wake up and you will be older, and likely will want to retire. How you spend your later years is decided on how you plan and what you do NOW and for the next 30 years or so. You can retire at 55 with enough money to travel, hike, do all the things you might like, and not have to worry about living on a small fixed income. Or you can retire at 70, or even never, and barely have enough to scrape by, because you simply can't afford to. And getting up and going to work doesn't get any easier the older you get. But that day WILL come.

It is true that money isn't everything. But to a large degree it equates to greater freedom to do those things you like to do and to a more enjoyable future. Choose and plan wisely.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do!

Ditto

[Mags]

The money issue does't seem that significant to me. If the company in Denver is low-balling you, you can always leave them in 6-12 months for a higher bidder, or bargain them upwards by making yourself someone they would hate to have leave.

Another bit of advice: Beware of the high-paying job--it can lead you into the temptation to bind yourself to that income.

I will say that for *experienced* technical workers (be it engineers or IT monkeys like me) the job market is HOT in Denver. I am not even actively looking and I get offers for interviews at least once every two weeks. I am not even anything that remarkable (good, but certainly not the guy who stands up his own server for fun at home!)

If you get a solid year or so of experience under your belt, you will get what you are worth.

To add to what Marta said, , if you have a good engineering job at home and. if you are like many young men, you'll probably date. Don't know what it is like in Indiana, but among my conservative blue collar family and friends (or at least raised that way), if you have a "good job" and are with a "nice girl", you are married by 30. Not a bad thing at all..if that is what you want. But, makes it harder to leave. Just a thought anyway.

[Popnfrsh24]

thanks for the advice people. I am still just overwhelmed by everything....it feels like such a big decision for me, and i have to make a decision in about 24 hrs from now. ARGH!!!!!

[Berserker]

thanks for the advice people. I am still just overwhelmed by everything....it feels like such a big decision for me, and i have to make a decision in about 24 hrs from now. ARGH!!!!!

When feeling overwhelmed just remember that you are young, have your whole career ahead of you, have a highly sought after degree, have 2 companies offering you what sound like decent jobs, and you thru hiked the AT...it don't get much better than that

[4eyedbuzzard]

When feeling overwhelmed just remember that you are young, have your whole career ahead of you, have a highly sought after degree, have 2 companies offering you what sound like decent jobs, and you thru hiked the AT...it don't get much better than that

+1 And given what has happened in our economy, yours is a wonderful dilemma to be in Popnfrsh. Your hard work earning your degree and starting your career has paid off. Having to choose between two good job offers is your reward. (No good deed goes unpunished rule)

[Popnfrsh24]

Welp, FYI guys I took the Indianapolis job. The Denver job never even came back with a counter offer, tried calling them and no response, so I went ahead with the Indy job. Indy job is super excited for me to be on board, so I think good things will come from this. Thanks for all of your guy's advice!

Now...I am starting the search to get into an apartment. This is where I am having some more decisions, decisions, decisions! I am looking for a nice place in the Indy area (one that hopefully has a lot of young professionals so I can meet new people), and it is looking like I can pay anywhere from 900-1000/month for these places. No utilities are included in this...DAMNNNN! But, I am very fortunate to have no more college debt, so this is one reason why I can justify paying this much for rent.

Now, I was fretting over the job decision, now I am fretting over what I want to do about a living situation! I have a potential for a roommate who is a mutual friend from college, and he is a real stand up guy. Having a roommate could help with being alone, split rent, and utilites. Plus, he has all of the living items, where i have ZERO. But there are of course also downsides too...we could not have the most similar interests, and would we potentially get on each others nerves? I do play guitar a LOT, and I think he is still going to school to get a MBA on the weekend.

One thing I have not done is live by myself...and I am rather intimidated by it. My last professional job, I was living out of hotels and eating out for every meal. This would be a HUGE change for me, coming back to an apartment where I have to cook/clean/etc. So, is this the time for me to bite the bullet and live on my OWN!? I do feel like sometimes doing the thing you are most afraid of will turn out to grow you as a human being, is this one of those cases? Will I have a lot of personal growth by doing this? Or would I still have a lot of growth if I get a roomie to help with costs, have someone to chum around with/etc. What do y'all think?

[Berserker]

Welp, FYI guys I took the Indianapolis job.

One thing I have not done is live by myself...and I am rather intimidated by it. My last professional job, I was living out of hotels and eating out for every meal. This would be a HUGE change for me, coming back to an apartment where I have to cook/clean/etc. So, is this the time for me to bite the bullet and live on my OWN!? I do feel like sometimes doing the thing you are most afraid of will turn out to grow you as a human being, is this one of those cases? Will I have a lot of personal growth by doing this? Or would I still have a lot of growth if I get a roomie to help with costs, have someone to chum around with/etc. What do y'all think?

Congrats on the job. As for living with a roommate or alone, that's all up to your personal preference. I'm married with kids now, but when I was a single professional I did both...lived with roommates and alone. I vastly preferred living alone, and only tried the roommate thing out a few times. I found out from those few times that I am quite particular about how I like things, and that's a lot easier to control if you live alone.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Not having lived alone for many decades, due to a job transfer I have recently found myself living away from home until Mrs. Buzzard can arrange a transfer. After renting a 1 bedroom apt, my son unexpectedly moved in with me for a month. I love him - but in many ways I'm glad he's now moved out into his own place. Living alone can be obviously lonely at times, but you do have control over everything. Little things that other people do can be rather annoying. How they keep their personal possessions, handle their laundry, whether or not they clean up after themselves, etc, etc, etc . . .
At minimum, I'd suggest a 2 bedroom, 2 bath apt. if you're considering that option.

[Sierra2015]

Oh my god... you sound so young.


But I speak from a deep place of narcissism, feelings of inadequacy, and jealousy. This past year I worked 50 to 60 hours a week and made about half as much as your starting salary. And no momma and papa. Four months ago my job fired 2/3 of their employees. I was kept on but I lost 30% of my hours. My hard earned savings have been slowly evaporating away. Smoke in my grubby, greedy little fingers.


Ah, I feel better. It's okay, I'm moving to a cheaper city, going to pursue some more education (useful education hopefully, more science and math and less art appreciation), and actually be able to afford to live without a roommate for the first time in my life.


See? I warned you I was narcissistic.


Enough about me, what I want to say to you is you're incredibly blessed. Don't go into music outside of having it as a hobby. It's a self-indulgent pursuit. (Hypocritically said since I plan to hike the AT next year and that's self-indulgent to the max.)


Also, stop squandering your money on eating out. It's practically a sin to waste resources like that. The difference between eating out and making all your food from scratch is close to 400 a month. (Don't believe me? Do the math and include tip. If you start baking your own bread and making your own pasta sauce you can eat on 80 a month.) Put your money away and save for a house. You're 26, not 19. Save enough and buy a house out in Colorado.


In regards to either living with a roommate or living alone.... If you're not planning to put those potential savings towards something worthwhile and practical, then screw the roommate idea. Live alone.


As a girl I have to say I hate dating guys that have roommates. Want to meet girls? Be independent. Want to have quality girls (eventually) come back to your place? Be independent.


Obviously I'm not very sympathetic. I hope you can forgive me for that and see where it comes from.

[Pressure D]

Good luck Lighthouse in your new job. I just came upon this thread or I would have entered in! If it doesn't work out move to Denver! Your trail buddy Pressure D

[Mags]

If you are new to a city, roomies are nice. Great way to meet people. If you want to save money, room mates are nice.

BUT, I found after a certain point, I preferred my own space. I suspect Indy is relatively inexpensive, sounds like you are making a good salary and you know the city (I assume?) already. All depends.

And..what Sierra said. When you have, as my late grandfather said, "a lady friend" having your own space is much better.

ps. learn to cook if you haven't already! It is indeed less expensive. And, if you can cook well...if it impressive.