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  1. #41
    tideblazer
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    You need to cut your strings Jack and answer the question.The excrement of your daily injestion never seems to fail to produce.
    www.ridge2reef.org -Organic Tropical Farm, Farm Stays, Group Retreats.... Trail life in the Caribbean

  2. #42

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    Yeah, lots of thoughts. But I'm gonna wait til I actually see and read the whole thing, and not just snippets in an editorial.

    Plus, this was the Times after all, and thanx to Wook's sage advice, I try and keep an open mind when dealing with tabloid journalism.

    You can't be too careful.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Tarlin
    Yeah, lots of thoughts. But I'm gonna wait til I actually see and read the whole thing, and not just snippets in an editorial.

    Here you go in case you lost the link...

    http://www.npsretirees.org/index.htm

  4. #44
    Cultural Resource Destroying Speed Hiker
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    Default

    This letter may be of interest as well.

    It's from the Coalition of National Park Service Retirees to the Director of U.S. Department of the Interior. (emphasis mine)

    August 25, 2005



    Dear Director Mainella:



    On behalf of over 400 members of the Coalition of National Park Service Retirees we implore you to reconsider proceeding ahead on the current effort to revise the Management Policies of the National Park Service. The present policies, last up-dated in 2001, are the most effective management policies ever put into place. The political leadership of the Department of the Interior and National Park Service seem ready to abandon long-established management policies that have served the nation well. Previous generations of Americans who have added the areas to the system that they believed merited protection in perpetuity would be enraged; the current generation ought to fear that the park legacy they pass on to their children and their children’s children will be compromised by the misguided efforts to make wholesale changes in how we manage our precious parks. The radical rewrite of the management policies, authored by the Deputy Assistant Secretary, Fish, Wildlife and Parks, is the only document of record that exists of this sad effort and represents a level of astounding arrogance and ignorance. The suggested revision turns its back on a 100 years legislative history, case law, and park management experience carefully and artfully constructed by generations of bi-partisan effort.



    We note with interest your most recent message in the ARROWHEAD (summer 2005) in which you announce the launch of your personal legacy program, “Doing Business in the 21st Century” guided by five basic goals to preserve the NPS legacy. The goals of Management Excellence, Sustainability, Conservation, Outdoor Recreation, and 21st Century Relevancy are admirable goals. However, these goals will mean nothing if you are a party to the dismantling of the management policies that have evolved over the 89-year history of the National Park Service. As you work to establish an enduring legacy of your efforts while Director of the National Park Service we can think of none better than holding the Service together by defending the present policies from any revision that threatens the foundations of the mission of the National Park Service.



    We initially appreciated your invitation to join in the effort to the National Park Service to review these policies even though you have denied our subsequent offers to assist. We are appalled at how this effort is being cloaked in a heavy veil of secrecy where not even your own employees, such as the superintendents, who must implement the policies in the parks, are involved with the effort. The Secretary’s 4-C’s Program, that has been gratuitously added throughout the draft revision, is in direct contradiction to the secretive and selective review process you are presently engaged in.



    The Coalition of NPS Retirees opposes this attempt to hijack the management of the 388 areas of our nation’s park system and convert them into mediocre areas where almost anything goes. Both political parties have traditionally viewed the management of our parks as an area where partisan politics were set aside and decisions were made based on the public interest. The draft policies developed by the Department of the Interior shatter that precedent and convert the management policies into a political agenda to weaken the preservation and protection of the areas that previous generations have added to the system. These changes must not be made, not only because they would set the Park Service on the path of mediocrity, but also as a matter of generational equity. We should not trash the legacy that we have received from our predecessors. How you respond to this issue will determine you own personal legacy as the 16th Director of the National Park Service.



    Sincerely,







    Robert Arnberger

    Don Castleberry

    Shirley Clark

    Denny Huffman

    Jerry Rogers

    Rick Smith

    Bill Wade

  5. #45
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    I was a bit confused, until I clicked here (taken from Sly's link, just a clever flash graphic)

    http://www.npsretirees.org/parkDisservice_001.exe

  6. #46
    Cultural Resource Destroying Speed Hiker
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    Default One more from the LA Times

    Controversy Over Plans for Changes in U.S. Parks


    ...."Paul Hoffman had some initial suggestions and prompted us," said David Barna, a Park Service spokesman. "Paul Hoffman was playing devil's advocate. He was saying, 'Show us, the political appointees who make policy, why do you do things the way you do?' It was a starting point. We're a long way from that now. They have drafted a new raw draft."


    (I don't buy the "devil's advocate" line for a minute - Tim)

    ......."I was profoundly shocked at how far it went," said a participant in the workshop. He said the group continued to work on the rewrite but was not sure if its watered-down version would be acceptable to Interior officials.

    A Park Service supervisor participating in redrafting the policy said a new version was not ready. He rejected the assertion that Hoffman's version was intended only as a provocative idea-generator.

  7. #47
    Twisted Walkingstick Chip's Avatar
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    Right On !!! Rain Man !!!

    Greed and Power at work again, how sad .

    For more info see: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9087265/

    When will people wake up and see the truth ?

    I fear when it is too late .



    Quote Originally Posted by Rain Man
    What I see--> you've bought into the Republican, Chamber of Commerce, and insurance industry rhertoric and lies, lock, stock, and barrel.

    Unions and "trial lawyers" (see "Erin Brockovich") stand for the little guys against those who exalt the "love of money" (see I Timothy) above all else. I see what Christ Jesus preached.

    That's good ethics in my book. I see standing for the rich and powerful and corrupt and secret agendas as what destroys ethics.

    We don't see things the same way. That's what makes the world go round.

    RainMan

    .
    Last edited by Chip; 08-30-2005 at 20:28.
    If we look at the path, we do not see the sky. We are earth people on a spiritual journey to the stars. Our quest, our earth walk is to look within, to know who we are, to see that we are connected to all things, that there is no separation, only in the mind.
    - Native American, source unknown

  8. #48
    tideblazer
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    Default Speaking of "authority" looting....

    Check out this unbelievable story hot off the press from the Times-Picayune in New Orleans: (my emphasis)

    http://www.nola.com/images/spacer.gifFrom:

    http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakin...08.html#075048

    Even a cop joins in the looting

    Mike Perlstein and Brian Thevenot
    Staff writers

    Law enforcement efforts to contain the emergency left by Katrina slipped into chaos in parts of New Orleans Tuesday with some police officers and firefighters joining looters in picking stores clean.

    At the Wal-Mart on Tchoupitoulas Street, an initial effort to hand out provisions to stranded citizens quickly disintegrated into mass looting. Authorities at the scene said bedlam erupted after the giveaway was announced over the radio.

    While many people carried out food and essential supplies, others cleared out jewelry racks and carted out computers, TVs and appliances on handtrucks.

    Some officers joined in taking whatever they could, including one New Orleans cop who loaded a shopping cart with a compact computer and a 27-inch flat screen television.

    Officers claimed there was nothing they could do to contain the anarchy, saying their radio communications have broken down and they had no direction from commanders.

    “We don’t have enough cops to stop it,” an officer said. “A mass riot would break out if you tried.”

    Inside the store, the scene alternated between celebration and frightening bedlam. A shirtless man straddled a broken jewelry case, yelling, “Free samples, free samples over here.”

    Another man rolled a mechanized pallet, stacked six feet high with cases of vodka and whiskey. Perched atop the stack was a bewildered toddler.

    Throughout the store and parking lot, looters pushed carts and loaded trucks and vans alongside officers. One man said police directed him to Wal-Mart from Robert’s Grocery, where a similar scene was taking place. A crowd in the electronics section said one officer broke the glass DVD case so people wouldn’t cut themselves.

    “The police got all the best stuff. They’re crookeder than us,” one man said.

    Most officers, though, simply stood by powerless against the tide of law breakers.

    One veteran officer said, “It’s like this everywhere in the city. This tiny number of cops can’t do anything about this. It’s wide open.”

    At least one officer tried futilely to control a looter through shame.

    “When they say take what you need, that doesn’t mean an f-ing TV,” the officer shouted to a looter. “This is a hurricane, not a free-for-all.”

    Sandra Smith of Baton Rouge walked through the parking lot with a 12-pack of Bud Light under each arm. “I came down here to get my daughters,” she said, “but I can’t find them.”

    The scene turned so chaotic at times that entrances were blocked by the press of people and shopping carts and traffic jams sprouted on surrounding streets.

    Some groups organized themselves into assembly lines to more efficiently cart off goods.

    Toni Williams, 25, packed her trunk with essential supplies, such as food and water, but said mass looting disgusted and frightened her.

    “I didn’t feel safe. Some people are going overboard,” she said.

    Inside the store, one woman was stocking up on make-up. She said she took comfort in watching police load up their own carts.

    It must be legal,” she said. “The police are here taking stuff, too.”

    (Staff writers Doug MacCash and Keith Spera assisted in this story.)
    www.ridge2reef.org -Organic Tropical Farm, Farm Stays, Group Retreats.... Trail life in the Caribbean

  9. #49

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    I'm a gettin'

  10. #50

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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeemer
    And who can forget the old lady who spilled hot coffee on herself and won the lawsuit....
    Just another example of the lies spread by the Chamber of Commerce/insurance industry/GOP types, though I credit you for not faking any facts, Skeemer, about it. Most who mention this case do so to the extent it has become much more mythical (lies) than real (truthful).

    For those interested in the truth, and unwilling to do their own Google searches,--

    http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors...yinamerica.htm

    This lady was one among several people over time burned by this McDonalds for super-heating its coffee. It had been told repeatedly of the resulting injuries and ignored the warnings. She was severely burned through no fault of her own, required numerous skin grafts, and asked for little money for her medical expenses only. She only sued as a last resort when McDonalds refused even that.

    Once a jury of independent folks (not big business crybabies) heard all the evidence from both sides, they ordered that she be reimbursed for her actual injuries and tacked on a punitive amount, as was only right. Big businesses only respond to pocketbook issues, not to moral or ethical compulsion, it appears. Of course, their defenders blame "trial lawyers" for every sin and shortcoming in Western civilization, so this just HAD to be the fault of "lawyers." What ever happened to "personal responsibility" by the "person" (McDonalds) that caused this horrible avoidable injury?

    As the Chamber of Commerce/insurance industry/GOP is trying to do away with the American jury system as we know it by encouraging these lies about real and mythical cases, I defer to Thomas Jefferson, who wrote in a letter to Thomas Paine, 1789: "I consider trial by jury as the only anchor ever yet imagined by man, by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution." I wonder why those powers-that-be, therefore, are undermining the little guy's day in court every which way possible?

    Do you know why Shakespeare's character said "First, let's kill all the lawyers"? Because that was part of his plot to take over the civil government. Sounds like a lot of apologists for big business just want to hamstring lawyers if they can't out-and-out kill them, for the same purpose.

    I just appreciate truth about actual cases, not agendas propped up with lies about cases. Then let the chips fall where they may.

    Now, back to the hiking channel. LOL

    RainMan

    .
    [I]ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: ... Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit....[/I]. Numbers 35

    [url]www.MeetUp.com/NashvilleBackpacker[/url]

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  11. #51
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    Ho hum....

  12. #52

    Default Rain Man...

    Gee, I wonder how many people drank that terrible super heated coffee at McDonalds (and loved it that way) without scorching themselves...millions maybe?

    I'm for people taking responsibility for their own accidents and not trying to blame everything bad on everyone else.

    Take off your neck brace and return to the trail!

  13. #53
    •Completed A.T. Section Hike GA to ME 1996 thru 2003 •Donating Member Skyline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlbj6142
    Everyone does that. Its the easiest way to "win" an agrument.
    Anyone CAN do it, but if you look back over the past 10 or 15 years, who do you see has done it (changed the subject, deflected criticism, demonized opponents) the most, and very consistently? It's definitely not the moderates or liberals. It's usually the conservatives, and more often than not it's got Karl Rove's fingerprint on it.

    Poor Clinton couldn't even buy himself some good press during his second term, "liberal" media notwithstanding. Even when he tried his best to be proactive re: Bin Laden by retaliating for past terror the GOP spinmeisters, already in a bid to impeach him, accused him of wagging the dog. They accused HIM of trying to change the subject. If Bush had sent those missiles after AQ, they would have canonized him on Fox News--but because it was Clinton, they yelled foul. It's hypocritical, especially now because some on the Right make outrageous claims that 9/11 was Clinton's "fault." There was enough "fault" to go around that nobody should have the nerve to point fingers.

  14. #54
    Springer - Front Royal Lilred's Avatar
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    I believe the lack of responsibility by many people in this country is alarming, and lawsuits that are trivial are a burden on this nation. However, I must agree with Rain Man on this one. Without trial lawyers, the little guy would be stepped on over and over again. I saw pictures of the legs of the woman who sued McDonalds, and they were horrific. Any coffee that was heated up to the temp to do that kind of damage was negligent on the part of the business. The business had been previously warned and obviously ignored the warnings. Suppose a young mother had accidently spilled it on her child? At the same time though, there ought to be a ceiling on the amount of money awarded, say, hospital cost and then a fixed settlement. Death gets so much, loss of limb so much, etc..... just like the insurance companies do.
    "It was on the first of May, in the year 1769, that I resigned my domestic happiness for a time, and left my family and peaceable habitation on the Yadkin River, in North Carolina, to wander through the wilderness of America." - Daniel Boone

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilredmg
    I believe the lack of responsibility by many people in this country is alarming, and lawsuits that are trivial are a burden on this nation. However, I must agree with Rain Man on this one. Without trial lawyers, the little guy would be stepped on over and over again. I saw pictures of the legs of the woman who sued McDonalds, and they were horrific. Any coffee that was heated up to the temp to do that kind of damage was negligent on the part of the business. The business had been previously warned and obviously ignored the warnings. Suppose a young mother had accidently spilled it on her child? At the same time though, there ought to be a ceiling on the amount of money awarded, say, hospital cost and then a fixed settlement. Death gets so much, loss of limb so much, etc..... just like the insurance companies do.
    Forgive Skeemer, he's been a Corporate Stooge all his life, he does not know any better.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyline
    Anyone CAN do it, but if you look back over the past 10 or 15 years, who do you see has done it (changed the subject, deflected criticism, demonized opponents) the most, and very consistently? It's definitely not the moderates or liberals. It's usually the conservatives, and more often than not it's got Karl Rove's fingerprint on it.
    You see when a bleeding heart starts to rant about something that makes no sense (which is the things they rant about), there is no point in arguing with them. You might as well just talk about something else.

    Doug

    ps. Bleeding hearts, please don't take offense. I am intentionally trying to be over the top as a silly response to Skyline's extreme/absolute/prejudiced statements.

  17. #57

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    There is a tactic that has been employed in the last 10 years that has become extraordinarily effective. Conservative Talk Radio has had a HUGE hand in this. I know - cause I listen to it regularly. If you throw enough spaghetti against the wall, some of it will eventually stick. Truth doesn't ususally matter in this exercise. It's all about fulfilling an agenda. Say something over and over, and over again, and people will believe it to be true. "Global Warming is a Hoax." "Clinton is a Cocaine Dealer." "The French are the cause of all of our problems." "Rudy Giuliani is a Great Man." "The NY Times is an unreliable Liberal newspaper." And on & on it goes...

    Now you're welcome to disagree with me, or course. But if you do, I'm likely to think that you haven't been paying attention.

  18. #58
    Springer - Front Royal Lilred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOWGLI16
    There is a tactic that has been employed in the last 10 years that has become extraordinarily effective. Conservative Talk Radio has had a HUGE hand in this. I know - cause I listen to it regularly. If you throw enough spaghetti against the wall, some of it will eventually stick. Truth doesn't ususally matter in this exercise. It's all about fulfilling an agenda. Say something over and over, and over again, and people will believe it to be true. "Global Warming is a Hoax." "Clinton is a Cocaine Dealer." "The French are the cause of all of our problems." "Rudy Giuliani is a Great Man." "The NY Times is an unreliable Liberal newspaper." And on & on it goes...

    Now you're welcome to disagree with me, or course. But if you do, I'm likely to think that you haven't been paying attention.

    Well Put. The TV talk shows are just as bad. Did anyone see Dennis Miller's appearance on that conservative talk show? I forget the name of it, he nailed the guy that wears that bow tie. The producer of the show AGREED with Miller.

    Guess you can tell how much I watch those kind of shows........with ole whatshisname......... I know someone out there can fill in the names for me.
    "It was on the first of May, in the year 1769, that I resigned my domestic happiness for a time, and left my family and peaceable habitation on the Yadkin River, in North Carolina, to wander through the wilderness of America." - Daniel Boone

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilredmg
    Well Put. The TV talk shows are just as bad. Did anyone see Dennis Miller's appearance on that conservative talk show? I forget the name of it, he nailed the guy that wears that bow tie. The producer of the show AGREED with Miller.

    Guess you can tell how much I watch those kind of shows........with ole whatshisname......... I know someone out there can fill in the names for me.
    Tucker Carlson or Tom Oliphant...

  20. #60
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    Default Thankyou!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay
    I don't, there is too much BS in the world already.
    Thankyou!
    Thankyou!
    Thankyou!

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