Standard forum-esque Monday morning quarterbacking by the low self-esteem know-it-alls, what can you do? Don’t read these posts, that’s what. Woops.
This may be Monday morning QBing, but going with that analogy the QB showed up wearing ice skates and swinging a tennis racket...Originally Posted by colorado_rob
This story becomes relevant since tonight in Georgia will be the coldest temperature since 1983. In April of 1983, I was a senior in high school (17 years old) and was looking for an adventure during spring break.
I wanted to spend the week hiking the AT, from Dicks Creek Gap in Georgia to the NOC. I was reasonably well-prepared, I had hiked most of the trail in Georgia and I had some pretty good gear. Since it was spring, I planned to hike mostly in shorts and a t-shirt, but I had was prepared with a set of polypro, a wool sweater, a nylon rainsuit and a wool balaclava. I don't remember really checking out the weather, but this was 1983, you would check the newspaper for the weather forecast.
The first day was fine, a little cool and I spent the night at the Plumorchard shelter. The next day, I marveled at the snow on the far mountains and it was snowing as I got near Bly gap. It kept snowing and getting colder as the day went on. The snow was about 10 inches deep when I got to the Muskrat Creek shelter. It was getting colder and I noticed my hands got numb very fast when I was eating my dinner. The little thermometer on my jacket read -10 degrees. There was another hiker in the shelter and he suggested I put my water bottle and stove in my sleeping bag. My REI 20 degree bag held up just fine even though my boots were frozen to the floor of the shelter the next morning.
The other guy had his truck parked at the Standing Indian campground and he headed out towards it the next day. He asked if I wanted a ride somewhere and I said I was headed to the NOC and I would just keep going. The next couple of days were kind of cold but then it started to warm up. It was early April on the AT and I didn't see another hiker for the next 3 days. I've often wondered what that guy thought after he walked away from kid out by himself on a bitterly cold adventure.
Could it have ended badly for me? I didn't know it could but I was out in bitter cold with blue jeans, Sears boots and some canned goods. But I also had polypro, wool socks, sweater and hat and a good rainsuit. And I had the attitude that I was out on an adventure and I was walking to the NOC. I think the mental preparation was 90% of my success. That, and I budgeted nearly 1# of gorp per day.
Your biggest mistake was not burning your clothes right away or else you would have definitely accepted that ride!This story becomes relevant since tonight in Georgia will be the coldest temperature since 1983. In April of 1983, I was a senior in high school (17 years old) and was looking for an adventure during spring break.
I wanted to spend the week hiking the AT, from Dicks Creek Gap in Georgia to the NOC. I was reasonably well-prepared, I had hiked most of the trail in Georgia and I had some pretty good gear. Since it was spring, I planned to hike mostly in shorts and a t-shirt, but I had was prepared with a set of polypro, a wool sweater, a nylon rainsuit and a wool balaclava. I don't remember really checking out the weather, but this was 1983, you would check the newspaper for the weather forecast.
The first day was fine, a little cool and I spent the night at the Plumorchard shelter. The next day, I marveled at the snow on the far mountains and it was snowing as I got near Bly gap. It kept snowing and getting colder as the day went on. The snow was about 10 inches deep when I got to the Muskrat Creek shelter. It was getting colder and I noticed my hands got numb very fast when I was eating my dinner. The little thermometer on my jacket read -10 degrees. There was another hiker in the shelter and he suggested I put my water bottle and stove in my sleeping bag. My REI 20 degree bag held up just fine even though my boots were frozen to the floor of the shelter the next morning.
The other guy had his truck parked at the Standing Indian campground and he headed out towards it the next day. He asked if I wanted a ride somewhere and I said I was headed to the NOC and I would just keep going. The next couple of days were kind of cold but then it started to warm up. It was early April on the AT and I didn't see another hiker for the next 3 days. I've often wondered what that guy thought after he walked away from kid out by himself on a bitterly cold adventure.
Could it have ended badly for me? I didn't know it could but I was out in bitter cold with blue jeans, Sears boots and some canned goods. But I also had polypro, wool socks, sweater and hat and a good rainsuit. And I had the attitude that I was out on an adventure and I was walking to the NOC. I think the mental preparation was 90% of my success. That, and I budgeted nearly 1# of gorp per day.
This story becomes relevant since tonight in Georgia will be the coldest temperature since 1983. In April of 1983, I was a senior in high school (17 years old) and was looking for an adventure during spring break.
I wanted to spend the week hiking the AT, from Dicks Creek Gap in Georgia to the NOC. I was reasonably well-prepared, I had hiked most of the trail in Georgia and I had some pretty good gear. Since it was spring, I planned to hike mostly in shorts and a t-shirt, but I had was prepared with a set of polypro, a wool sweater, a nylon rainsuit and a wool balaclava. I don't remember really checking out the weather, but this was 1983, you would check the newspaper for the weather forecast.
The first day was fine, a little cool and I spent the night at the Plumorchard shelter. The next day, I marveled at the snow on the far mountains and it was snowing as I got near Bly gap. It kept snowing and getting colder as the day went on. The snow was about 10 inches deep when I got to the Muskrat Creek shelter. It was getting colder and I noticed my hands got numb very fast when I was eating my dinner. The little thermometer on my jacket read -10 degrees. There was another hiker in the shelter and he suggested I put my water bottle and stove in my sleeping bag. My REI 20 degree bag held up just fine even though my boots were frozen to the floor of the shelter the next morning.
The other guy had his truck parked at the Standing Indian campground and he headed out towards it the next day. He asked if I wanted a ride somewhere and I said I was headed to the NOC and I would just keep going. The next couple of days were kind of cold but then it started to warm up. It was early April on the AT and I didn't see another hiker for the next 3 days. I've often wondered what that guy thought after he walked away from kid out by himself on a bitterly cold adventure.
Could it have ended badly for me? I didn't know it could but I was out in bitter cold with blue jeans, Sears boots and some canned goods. But I also had polypro, wool socks, sweater and hat and a good rainsuit. And I had the attitude that I was out on an adventure and I was walking to the NOC. I think the mental preparation was 90% of my success. That, and I budgeted nearly 1# of gorp per day.
Wow... that's quite a story.. thanks so much for sharing that!
There's a relatively significant assortment of high-self-esteem know-it-alls hereabouts also. We needs hugs too!
I'm late to the party--been offline for a few days, but when I read the headline the first thing I thought was: I ran into these guys!! But when I checked the dates, I was already finished with my Smokeys winter hike right before they started. However, I did cross paths with 3 young guys who fit this description and were ill-prepared and suffering. They refused any help I offered but they had slept alongside the trail not being able to make it from one shelter to the next and were not dressed for the cold sleet and wind that we were experiencing. They were between Derrick Knob and Thunderhead Mtn. Just hope they made it ok.
Well, seems the low-esteem know-it-all Monday morning QB's at least knew enough to call a different, lower esteem, play in the huddle - they weren't the ones sacked with their cleats in the frozen turf in the end zone.
To use a different analogy, most people will look at and comment on auto accidents. It's just nature - creatures sniffing the corpses of others of their kind. That we do it "virtually" is just part of the human expression of that instinct. People comment because most accidents are caused by people either not obeying rules and/or following established standards of behavior leading to a chain of events. There are occasions when doo-doo just happens without operator negligence, or where one marginally bad decision goes south - but this definitely wasn't one of them. These guys really freakin' worked at it. From gear, to planning, to the ongoing chain of bad decisions made. And that is why people talk about it after the fact, in some part to validate that their own knowledge is in line the common wisdom. It's the "bad outcome example" part of learning processes that reinforces our behavior patterns.
I bet you didn't hike with a cell ph either thinking it was someone else's responsibility to come save you either!This story becomes relevant since tonight in Georgia will be the coldest temperature since 1983. In April of 1983, I was a senior in high school (17 years old) and was looking for an adventure during spring break.
I wanted to spend the week hiking the AT, from Dicks Creek Gap in Georgia to the NOC. I was reasonably well-prepared, I had hiked most of the trail in Georgia and I had some pretty good gear. Since it was spring, I planned to hike mostly in shorts and a t-shirt, but I had was prepared with a set of polypro, a wool sweater, a nylon rainsuit and a wool balaclava. I don't remember really checking out the weather, but this was 1983, you would check the newspaper for the weather forecast.
The first day was fine, a little cool and I spent the night at the Plumorchard shelter. The next day, I marveled at the snow on the far mountains and it was snowing as I got near Bly gap. It kept snowing and getting colder as the day went on. The snow was about 10 inches deep when I got to the Muskrat Creek shelter. It was getting colder and I noticed my hands got numb very fast when I was eating my dinner. The little thermometer on my jacket read -10 degrees. There was another hiker in the shelter and he suggested I put my water bottle and stove in my sleeping bag. My REI 20 degree bag held up just fine even though my boots were frozen to the floor of the shelter the next morning.
The other guy had his truck parked at the Standing Indian campground and he headed out towards it the next day. He asked if I wanted a ride somewhere and I said I was headed to the NOC and I would just keep going. The next couple of days were kind of cold but then it started to warm up. It was early April on the AT and I didn't see another hiker for the next 3 days. I've often wondered what that guy thought after he walked away from kid out by himself on a bitterly cold adventure.
Could it have ended badly for me? I didn't know it could but I was out in bitter cold with blue jeans, Sears boots and some canned goods. But I also had polypro, wool socks, sweater and hat and a good rainsuit. And I had the attitude that I was out on an adventure and I was walking to the NOC. I think the mental preparation was 90% of my success. That, and I budgeted nearly 1# of gorp per day.
I really like ur comment 4eyedbuzzard!
From ur comment, I can try to articulate my thoughts and feelings about this whole thing.
I'm right with you up until the point of where you make a judgement call/assumption that they willfully and purposefully made stupid choices with some kind of self awareness that the choices they were making might not be smart or potentially life threatening.
You may be 100% correct. I'm not a mind reader so I don't know if this is the case or not.
I tend to believe that they were completely clueless and with the amount of knowledge/ understanding they possessed, at the time, they made these very unwise choices on all counts- from A-Z.
Here's the second piece.... Even if you are correct, they are complete fools!! IDIOTS!! I can't join in with the tongue lashing, reaming etc.. and the "party like" atmosphere or find any amount of pleasure in their "plight". I can't do it! In fact, it makes me angry & makes me think poorly of the ones that engage in this behavior.
WHen I think poorly of ones that do this, I also realize that I'm guilty of engaging in other types of behavior that is just as "bad" as this (in my mind) so it keeps me from feeling superior in any way.I am happy for that!!
Thanks again for your post.
youve contributed to the "party" with your adamant defense of these knuckleheads.
IF IF IF that was the situation I could agree with you. however, I think you are inaccurate in your portrayal of the situation. AGAIN, I disagree with the assumption these three men embarked on this hike totally blind or lacking total understanding. When I've investigated backpacking/hiking rescues and emergency situations what became clear to me was NOT that people who found themselves in these scenarios were always TOTALLY BLIND or had absolutely NO UNDERSTANDING! AGAIN, it's that they often CHOSE to ignore critical pieces of information/HEED SOUND ADVICE WHEN IT HAD ALREADY BEEN MADE KNOWN TO THEM. What CAUSED or contributed to the severity of these scenarios was that they intentionally, at least to some extent, IGNORED sound advice. Do you see the difference? Ignorance comes in many forms. However, I strongly suspect these MEN were not totally ignorant! They chose not to embrace knowledge and wisdom, at least to some extent. My comments, and perhaps some other comments, were meant not look down on people who weren't as experienced or had a good understanding of backpacking/hiking but largely to point out what can happen when we ignore sound advice when it's made known/available to us.
These things should happen far less if we listened more to sound advice. Where's typically an excellent source of sound advice when hiking in a National Park?....The National Park Service!
Prevention of these types of scenarios is why NPs have INFO Hotlines(24 hrs a day 7 days a wk in some cases), web cams, current weather condition updates, website info(including some with winter weather hiking info), manned offices, live people to talk to, multiple ways to contact them, etc. But I suppose SOME will conclude they don't need these services provided by the NPS. Perhaps, some think it just too inconvenient to contact the NPS. IF these three men had a legal hiking permit/legal campsite info I can't see how they could not have obtained critical info by the NPS whether they had gotten their permit online or through the Backcountry Office.
I don't think they willfully and purposefully made bad decisions. They didn't ever want this to happen. I get that.
But I definitely do think that they willfully and purposefully chose to remain ignorant . They consciously chose to expend zero effort to learn anything about what they were setting off to do. Sorry, but I have little sympathy for those who choose to be ignorant and then wonder why they fail, those who choose not to expend any time or energy to learn anything about their own world, be it related to hiking or any other aspect of their life.
For every one time I hear someone ask these days, "where/how can I learn about __________?", I hear 100 other people say things like, "I don't need to know all that stuff", "can you do it for me?", "that's too hard/takes too much time to learn". People choose to be ignorant, and I don't suffer them kindly.
Sorry, just the way I am.
1)It is fact they were unprepared. 2) They did not use the resources that would have made them more prepared.3) HYOH means responsibility as well as freedom. 4) They are victims of their own behavior. I see this all the time at start in March ,April . Last year there were more unprepared thrus than i have ever seen . Those who love nature and go out in dangerous times are not only putting themselves in danger ,but the ones who try to help.
You can see it as a "party". I see it as a discussion with my friends.... thank you very much.
I can understand what you are saying... not paying attention to available knowledge is not cool! I agree.
I do understand how you feel. I guess if every one felt that way (and so strongly) they may not respond to their cries for help or make them feel terrrible about themselves when they are rescued and treated for their injuries. I don't know how they are treated or spoken too.
Either the rescuers tend to feel the same way as I do or they stuff their true feelings... I bet a lot of them do that.
It's cool that we are all different. I don't have bad feelings towards any of you, just feel differently.
Thanks for listening to me... luv you guys.
Thanks for explaining yourselves and how you feel... it's interesting.
"party" was your term, not mine.You can see it as a "party". I see it as a discussion with my friends.... thank you very much.
I can understand what you are saying... not paying attention to available knowledge is not cool! I agree.
I do understand how you feel. I guess if every one felt that way (and so strongly) they may not respond to their cries for help or make them feel terrrible about themselves when they are rescued and treated for their injuries. I don't know how they are treated or spoken too.
Either the rescuers tend to feel the same way as I do or they stuff their true feelings... I bet a lot of them do that.
It's cool that we are all different. I don't have bad feelings towards any of you, just feel differently.
Thanks for listening to me... luv you guys.
Thanks for explaining yourselves and how you feel... it's interesting.
let me add this:if i or any one of the so called know it alls here with hi/lo self esteem had come across these guys during our hikes, i guarantee you any and all of us would have done our best to help.ive always helped people in need whenever i could, and this would be no different, even if they were idiots.i dont want to see anyone die or suffer needlessly when i can be of help.
youve decided to portray some of us here as bad guys who do nothing but bad mouth people who come here for help.they never came here for help. it is, as others have said a monday morning critique for what these men did wrong, in the hopes that people planning on going backpacking into the mountains in winter understand you need to do some basic planning and preparation for such an ambitious endeavor. 10 days in the mountains in winter can challenge the most experienced of us.
as far as the rescuers feelings, most are happy with any rescue effort, so long as it ends well and not in tragedy. thats why they do it.
The mental preperation might have been part of it, but it doesn't prevent hypothermia. Having at least some proper gear and using it is what makes the difference. You might have had some luck on your side too.Could it have ended badly for me? I didn't know it could but I was out in bitter cold with blue jeans, Sears boots and some canned goods. But I also had polypro, wool socks, sweater and hat and a good rainsuit. And I had the attitude that I was out on an adventure and I was walking to the NOC. I think the mental preparation was 90% of my success. That, and I budgeted nearly 1# of gorp per day.
As for the guys in the Smokies, thier mistake was not turning around when it became apparent they were heading into trouble. But when you start getting hypothermic, you start doing really stupid things and your situation goes from bad to worse.
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I understand how you feel too. You injected the word "party" when you could have noticed we were having an adult discussion. I have not decided to portray anyone as a bad guy.
I just shared very openly and honestly, how I feel...
You insisted that I was giving them a "pass"... I wasn't. I don't feel like you heard me or understand me.
Dogwood and 4EB heard me.
FYI.... I have this same discussion with my own daughter. We will be running in the gym and someone won't be paying attention and walk right in front of us running on the track. She goes ballistic. She rants and raves about how ignorant people are.. she gives them dirty looks when we run by.
I'm like... they didn't do it on purpose... blah blah blah... why are you so upset? I get mad at her for not being understanding of people/ cutting people slack. I'm learning to be more understanding. I love to hear how others feel. It's different from me. It's OK.
your words not mine.Really guys? Now they are on drugs? They are guilty of embarking on an adventure in which they were neither self-educated nor self-aware.... GUILTY.
Wow, I'm amazed at these responses... *shaking head*
Huge communication fail going on between Hikerboy and myself... *shaking head*... OMGosh!!
Laughing at them? That would go over real well when inviting them to educate themselves for future backpacking trips....*shaking head*
Carry on with ur party.. I'm out.
Maybe they can't read a map so it was off scale to them
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