Backcountry overnights down 25% in 2013

[HooKooDooKu]

My biggest gripe with the new system ... was that making all the campsites require reservations seemed like a solution for something that wasn't a problem in the first place.

I think the answer is KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid.

I think it's just like the $4 fee. It's pretty blunt, and in some situations a bit unfair (for I've always railed that the fee can lead to a family spending more to stay in the back country than in the front country with amenities). But it's pretty darn simple.

Same thing with making all sites to be 'rationed' camp sites. That treats all the campsites equally making the software simpler to implement, and simpler to use.

Besides, based on your own observations, we're talking about campsites that get very little use, and therefore will hardly ever 'fill up' (exceptions being things like a large group that comes thru one of the few sites limited to only 8 campers).

So from a practical stand point, the only thing that is different is that you now have to specify which 'unrationed' campsites you plan to stay at when you make your reservation for a 'rationed' campsite.

[George]

here is a question: how many thrus would be tempted to "sprint" through the smokies, paying 8$ for 2 nights instead of the 20$ pass

[TNhiker]

I don't think you'd find many hikers doing the 75 miles in 3 days......

[Seatbelt]

I don't think you'd find many hikers doing the 75 miles in 3 days......

It would probly be sobos more than nobos. The sobos I have met in TN/NC north of the Smokies were doing 25-30 mile days regularly.

[aficion]

It would probly be sobos more than nobos. The sobos I have met in TN/NC north of the Smokies were doing 25-30 mile days regularly.

Three days mortals can do, two days can be done by superhumans, one day passages of the entire length of the AT through GSMNP are quite rare.

[Seatbelt]

Three days mortals can do, two days can be done by superhumans, one day passages of the entire length of the AT through GSMNP are quite rare.

Agreed...........

[Slo-go'en]

On topic

New Permit System and Fees? I think this is the major culprit. Since the old permit system was free and could be filled out at the trailhead, it was easier to get people to comply. Now that they are charging for backcountry use, some people are choosing to either go somewhere else or camp without permits.

Umm, the "fill out the permit at the trail head" only applied to thru hikers, who are given leway to stay at what ever shelter they pleased. The only thing which has changed is having to get and pay for the permit before hand.

Everyone else had to register at the Ranger station to be issued a permit and you could only camp where the permit said you could, not were you pleased. Permits were issued according the capacity of the shelter and the number of people applying for a slot in the shelter. Drive in without making reservations well in advance and you could easily find there were no spots available when you got there.

I agree that the number of overnights were overstated in the past and are more accurate now. A couple of years ago I started a hike at New Found gap and had to work around what I could get at the last minute and I was given the last spot available in several of the shelters. Of course, it rained the next few days and the shelters were almost empty those nights, not full like they should have been. No doubt that happend a lot.

[winland]

Hmmmm. My personal numbers...lost 2 nights because of landslide, 5+ to rain (did plenty in the rain too), none to the permit system.

[ATL Backpacker]

Winland - good segue into my next question. Curious when most GSMNP backcountry campers are making their reservations? 30 days in advance? Or closer to <5 days when more is known about the weather forecast?

I ask b/c above-average rainfall has been blamed for part of the decline by a few different folks. I myself lost a couple of GSMNP nights due to rain...but my reservations had already been made. So the data shows I was in bc for 2 nights (x4 people) but really I wasn't. So the question is did rain have a considerable effect on people's reservation plans? Because reservations are what's being counted now, not actual people in the bc.

[HooKooDooKu]

here is a question: how many thrus would be tempted to "sprint" through the smokies, paying 8$ for 2 nights instead of the 20$ pass

The problem with this plan is that you would be required to obtain a general backpacking permit requiring that you specify which days you are going to stay at which shelters. If you try to get the permit 30 days out... you are committed to entering the park on a specific day 30 days from then. If you wait until just before you enter the park, you risk not getting reservations for the shelters you need.
By contrast, that extra $12 buys a thru LOTS of flexibility.

[HooKooDooKu]

Winland - good segue into my next question. Curious when most GSMNP backcountry campers are making their reservations? 30 days in advance? Or closer to <5 days when more is known about the weather forecast?

If you are trying to get one of the more popular camp sites (especially on a weekend) you NEED to be making your reservations 30 days out.
If weather causes you to want to modify your plans, so long as the desired sites are available on the new dates, the OFFICIAL policy is that you can modify your reservation once. In practice, I had no problems modifying reservations more than once. Now I don't know if the reason was that the NP was being lenient because this is the first season of the new system or because there was a lot of rain last year. Obviously there is nothing to force them to allow you to make changes more than once, so YMMV.

[madgoat]

I have a bit of a drive between me and the park. My hikes are usually 4-5 days in length with a couple buddies of mine. We have to get time off work for our trips. We are trying to bag all the trails in the park, so that further narrows our campsite selection. So we make reservations 30 days in advance and hit the trail regardless of the weather.

[SGT Rock]

When I lived in NC, the way I used the GSMNP most of the time was simplicity itself. I planned a trip in which I stayed in non-reserved campsites, which covered most of them. Friday night I'd check the weather forecast and plan what sort of elevation to go for. I kept a stock of permits in the car. I'd drive to the trailhead, drop the permit in the box, and go. More often than not, there would be not another soul camping at the less-than-popular, non-reserved campsites. The Park has around 100 campsites, less that 1/4 of which are highly sought after.

My biggest gripe with the new system (which admittedly I have never used, since I'm now mostly grappling with the infinitely more restrictive permit situation in Glacier NP) was that making all the campsites require reservations seemed like a solution for something that wasn't a problem in the first place.

My thoughts exactly. A solution for a non-problem.

[SGT Rock]

One can still call in and make a reservation along with stopping by the backcountry office.

So, it still can be done "from the road".

My guess (and it's just a guess as i havent tried it) is that one could also stop by a ranger station (such as smokemont or deep creek )and as long as there is a ranger there, make a reservation as well.........i would think that from there, the rangers would be able to call it in.........

The problem I've been running into with the Park Service is their official position in all this has been that they require the hiker to have a printed copy of their reservation with them. I tried to have a system for BMT Thru-Hikers where we could get the reservation for them via phone and then simply hike with a text message or e-mail version of the permit to show to any rangers. The Park wouldn't go for it, their position was the hiker might not have a phone or be able to get service in the back country to prove this. Their non-negotiable position to us was a printed permit.

On the BMT thru-hike NoBo this is a hard standard to meet. This year we are rerouting the BMT through Fontana Village so hikers can get a permit there before entering the park. Now the permit is not the only reason we are doing this, but it was one of the big reasons.

[HooKooDooKu]

One can still call in and make a reservation along with stopping by the backcountry office.

So, it still can be done "from the road".

My guess (and it's just a guess as i havent tried it) is that one could also stop by a ranger station (such as smokemont or deep creek )and as long as there is a ranger there, make a reservation as well.........i would think that from there, the rangers would be able to call it in.........

I've stated this elsewhere before, but because I only recently found out about it, I'm repeating it here as it directly pertains to these statements.

According to the rules published on the back side of the GSMNP Trail Map, you must obtain your permit online OR in person at the back country office located next to the Sugarland's Visitor's Center. Also explicitly stated that you must POSSESS your back country permit.

Not explicitly stated (but it becomes apparent from having gone thru the new system) is that you are required to have a printed copy of your permit in your possession (as SGT Rock states above). It's apparently no longer acceptable to simply have your reservation number. While I'm not sure, I think they are looking for the artificial water mark that appears in the background of the permit, perhaps to cut down on forgeries (after all, money is now involved).

Additionally, I suspect that Ranger Stations are not going to necessarily be equipped to accept payments nor print permits. Therefore, I find it highly unlikely that anyone could obtain a permit by visiting a Ranger Station (save the Back Country Office).

Interestingly enough, when the system has had problems with people printing their permits from online, the back country office has emailed PDF copies of permits allowing people to print their permits "off line" (because you normally print your permit directly from an online web page). People have been known to simply store such PDFs on their smart phones and presented that as their permit (it still has that water mark). However, there is nothing in the published rules that I know of that specifically allows for that.

[SGT Rock]

The position the Park Service took with us is there is no exception for just having a reservation number and/or digital PDF copy on a device. They also said the only two places to get a permit was via internet or the Sugarlands. Other ranger stations would not be able to print reservations. The solution via phone mentioned on their website and in this thread was to make arrangements to get a paper permit mailed to you at a physical address.

[SGT Rock]

In case you haven't noticed. I keep saying official position.

This is what the Park Service has told us at the BMTA as we tried, in vain, to make the system a little more workable for the BMT thru-hiker. Officially it has been a total. PITA. Unofficially I imagine that park service employees are generally helpful and apply some common sense as they are allowed. If I were to go to the ranger station at Cades Cove and they had the spare time to help me out, they might unofficially help me out with printing off a copy of the permit. Unofficially a ranger in the back country might buy the excuse that your paper permit got ruined in the rain but accepts your permit number or take it as proof if you show him the pdf on your smart phone. Bureaucracies hate exceptions to rules, generally because if you can make an exception in one case it ruins your justification for not making it in another case. Hopefully the GSMNP will allow the system to evolve, which it has since the initial proposal they made way before the system was actually introduced. It would be nice if they had a permit kiosk in all manned ranger posts, and it would be nice if they made that extra step in allowing digital copies of the permit to be accepted if the hiker has one.

----edit----

I'll also say this is as of my last dealing with all this stuff about a year or so ago. If they have made any slight changes or improvements in the system I do not know about it. I had my plate full with other updates this year, so I didn't personally talk to the Park this year. But the website still looks the same to me as I remember it as of March 2013 when I last went through all that. Unless someone shows me something in writing, that phone number they say to call as a last resort is still not going to help you out much if you don't already have a good way to print your own copy or cannot go by the Sugarlands.

[moldy]

I met a lady last year who had her permit on her I-phone. She also had taken a blank paper and made a hand made permit by copying the info from the I=phone. The trail cops said it was ok. She had a paper copy of her permit. I does not say that you have to use a printer.

[aficion]

I met a lady last year who had her permit on her I-phone. She also had taken a blank paper and made a hand made permit by copying the info from the I=phone. The trail cops said it was ok. She had a paper copy of her permit. I does not say that you have to use a printer.

Good thing for her handwriting isn't yet extinct.

[SGT Rock]

I met a lady last year who had her permit on her I-phone. She also had taken a blank paper and made a hand made permit by copying the info from the I=phone. The trail cops said it was ok. She had a paper copy of her permit. I does not say that you have to use a printer.

Good to hear common sense isn't dead. The official position of the Park Service when we talked to them was that this wouldn't be allowed, but I suspected it would be.