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  1. #41
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    I believe what you state is only a piece of the much larger puzzle. And as stated above just having a signal piece is easily dismissed, in this case,by stating equality.

    The large picture, which this is just a piece, is we are all one family, the human family. We are to be able to come together as a family. As such anyone you meet, male or female, is a member of your family and should be treated as such.

    So women are not just to be treated as your mother/grandmother/sister, but men are to be treated as your father/grandfather/brother. I would add to that list daughter/granddaughter and son/grandson respectively. In all that there is the potential for a mate as well, as that is one of the driving forces of the human family.

    It is recognition of this who this person is first, what are the family relationships that exist between you both, then seeing where it leads that I see is the answer. Is their agreement in this between both - if not there that is something to consider.

    Also just to add that I also believe we are a very mixed up family and it is not uncommon for a person to have muti-family roles in each others lives, in some instances you can be a parent to them, others them to you, other times you can both be as small 'sibling like' children, other times adults to each other.

    To that I have found in romantic relationships it is usually better to find a person that you can connect on all those 4 levels (adult/adult,parent/child,child/parent,child/child) and that takes time to find out, and it takes experiences and does take respecting the human family, all it's members including yourself - and by respecting yourself and the family and members you will respect the other person.

    Peace
    Last edited by Starchild; 02-21-2014 at 10:34.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by RN-PCT2015 View Post
    In this case, the OP suggests that it is proper for men to refrain from taking actions that could make women uncomfortable on the trail. I'm not sure how inaction could be perceived as sexist. Is a guy being sexist by refraining from making advances on a woman met on the trail thinking that the setting could possibly result in discomfort for the woman if the feelings are not mutual? It seems difficult to accept that the act of not taking action is somehow sexist.
    I agree with this ^^^^^

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by kayak karl View Post
    How about just The Golden Rule and leave the sexism out of it.
    Agree. Golden Rule. Why is this thread even necessary?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by max patch View Post
    Agree. Golden Rule. Why is this thread even necessary?
    yeah really. much ado over nothing. i guess folks like making mountains out of mole hills

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by RN-PCT2015 View Post
    In this case, the OP suggests that it is proper for men to refrain from taking actions that could make women uncomfortable on the trail. I'm not sure how inaction could be perceived as sexist. Is a guy being sexist by refraining from making advances on a woman met on the trail thinking that the setting could possibly result in discomfort for the woman if the feelings are not mutual? It seems difficult to accept that the act of not taking action is somehow sexist.
    Of course inaction could be due to prejudiced intentions... Sexism, racism, or any kind of prejudice. If I don't stop for a hitchhiker, despite having planned on doing so, because he's a [blank] would that not be a prejudiced act? The concept of this thread is a bit less black and white, but make no mistake; inaction can be just as insidious as action when motivated by prejudices.As for this thread... The concept is sexist. In literal terms it just is. But then again many customs that are considered 'polite' in our culture are. The only problem I have with this little rant we've been blessed with, is that it perpetuates the 'men are scary' mindset that seems to be so prevalent today. As if us good guys need to be on guard when hiking to ward off all the bad ones chasing our women... Do we really need to paint that picture? Just be a man, on and off the trail. If you know what that means then you're probably already doing it, and if you don't then reading this thread isn't gonna help you.

  6. #46
    Registered User Sierra2015's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    I believe what you state is only a piece of the much larger puzzle. And as stated above just having a signal piece is easily dismissed, in this case,by stating equality.

    The large picture, which this is just a piece, is we are all one family, the human family. We are to be able to come together as a family. As such anyone you meet, male or female, is a member of your family and should be treated as such.

    So women are not just to be treated as your mother/grandmother/sister, but men are to be treated as your father/grandfather/brother. I would add to that list daughter/granddaughter and son/grandson respectively. In all that there is the potential for a mate as well, as that is one of the driving forces of the human family.

    It is recognition of this who this person is first, what are the family relationships that exist between you both, then seeing where it leads that I see is the answer. Is their agreement in this between both - if not there that is something to consider.

    Also just to add that I also believe we are a very mixed up family and it is not uncommon for a person to have muti-family roles in each others lives, in some instances you can be a parent to them, others them to you, other times you can both be as small 'sibling like' children, other times adults to each other.

    To that I have found in romantic relationships it is usually better to find a person that you can connect on all those 4 levels (adult/adult,parent/child,child/parent,child/child) and that takes time to find out, and it takes experiences and does take respecting the human family, all it's members including yourself - and by respecting yourself and the family and members you will respect the other person.

    Peace
    While I appreciate the sentiment, I could not disagree more. (Despite the fact you and I have the same conclusion.)

    I don't want to be treated like your sister, daughter, or mother. I find familiar roles projected onto strangers rude and uncomfortable. There are boundaries and they serve an important role. We are biologically predisposed to keep to family and tribal units. And that's to protect ourselves.

    I also dislike the idea of rearranging family hierarchy. (Or an egalitarian arrangement.) I'm not married, but when I have a husband I will not treat him like a child, nor would I appreciate being treated like one. I think that's disrespectful. (Tangent: I also dislike treating a child like an adult.)

    And... I know you're talking about the sweet, tender feelings you express towards your family. But I think that's called compassion and that exists outside of our biological/societal organization. And, though compassion is sprung from our original attachment with our mother, it is a separate entity altogether.

    However... we really do have the same core belief. That we should always treat others with respect.

  7. #47
    Registered User Sierra2015's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by max patch View Post
    Agree. Golden Rule. Why is this thread even necessary?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Wolf View Post
    yeah really. much ado over nothing. i guess folks like making mountains out of mole hills
    Because we are intelligent, social animals that enjoy talking over ideas with our friends.

  8. #48
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    I don't think it perpetuates that "men are scary." I think JB was just trying to say we have an obligation to look out for each other. And look, I'm sure we've all met creepy dudes on the Trail. I've refused to share shelters w/ guys cause they creep me out, and I'm a 6'3 235lb former football player.

    Like I said earlier, we all have an obligation to not make others feel uncomfortable.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sierra2015 View Post
    Because we are intelligent, social animals that enjoy talking over ideas with our friends.

    Atta girl... I like you sooo much!

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by HikerMom58 View Post
    Atta girl... I like you sooo much!
    You're my inspiration for treating others with respect and kindness. ^_^

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sierra2015 View Post
    I also dislike the idea of rearranging family hierarchy. (Or an egalitarian arrangement.) I'm not married, but when I have a husband I will not treat him like a child, nor would I appreciate being treated like one. I think that's disrespectful. (Tangent: I also dislike treating a child like an adult.)
    If you take out the notion of being condescended to (i.e., "don't treat me like a child"), then I think it's easier to see the wisdom and accuracy in Starchild's comment. I'll admit, before I read his post I never thought of my marriage that way, but after having read it I see it clearly is right on (for my wife and I at least).

    Sometimes we all act foolishly, immaturely, stupidly....and in those moments it's really nice to have someone to lovingly correct us. Sometimes we all get scared, and in those moments it's really nice to have someone who loves you tell you it's going to be OK. And sometimes it's nice to have a friend who is willing to act like a little kid with you..without judging.

    I would agree that if I was being condescended to, I wouldn't like that, nor tolerate it for very long, but I'm fairly certain that's not what Starchild had in mind.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mak1277 View Post
    If you take out the notion of being condescended to (i.e., "don't treat me like a child"), then I think it's easier to see the wisdom and accuracy in Starchild's comment. I'll admit, before I read his post I never thought of my marriage that way, but after having read it I see it clearly is right on (for my wife and I at least).

    Sometimes we all act foolishly, immaturely, stupidly....and in those moments it's really nice to have someone to lovingly correct us. Sometimes we all get scared, and in those moments it's really nice to have someone who loves you tell you it's going to be OK. And sometimes it's nice to have a friend who is willing to act like a little kid with you..without judging.

    I would agree that if I was being condescended to, I wouldn't like that, nor tolerate it for very long, but I'm fairly certain that's not what Starchild had in mind.
    Yeah, I agree he meant utilizing the compassion and sweetness of those relationships. It's unimportant and I think I was splitting hairs a little bit. I do think all healthy relationships share common characteristics. Playfulness, empathy, encouragement, and security or closeness... and that's why it feels familiar.

    My main thought had to do with boundaries and the importance of keeping to them.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sierra2015 View Post

    My main thought had to do with boundaries and the importance of keeping to them.
    Yeah, I'm with you there. Any time a stranger treats me with too much familiarity (even if it's kind familiarity) is off-putting.

  14. #54
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    I think part of my disagreement with some guy's behavior is that they too often (some almost always) assume a protective father/big brother role when in the presence of almost any woman, even when it's not warranted (I would agree that occasionally it is, and will likely be welcomed). We all have varying degrees of "sheepdog" in us - but when it's turned on 24/7 it becomes tedious, even obnoxious, to be around.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sierra2015 View Post
    Because we are intelligent, social animals that enjoy talking over ideas with our friends.
    Do mean to imply that it would be boring to only discuss such topics as the relative antimicrobial virtues of the supermicronic squishy filter over that of the SUL short wavelength DNA scrambler?

  16. #56

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    there is the Golden Rule, but not everyone wants to be treated the way I want to be treated; there are cultural/societal differences. the platinum rule, treating people the way they want to be treated is something to strive for (for me), the problem is in knowing how someone wants to be treated. I for one like to open doors but not everyone likes or wants that. But there are common boundaries that shouldn't be crossed, uninvited touching as Sierra mentioned is one of those, and until one gets to know someone, even a certain sense of humor needs to be approached with caution - for me.

    and i've seen advances in the other direction which seem to get ignored. they may not be as common but they happen, and they are no less serious but somehow rarely viewed this way. I left a job because of such a situation, my management and HR wouldn't listen, and it continued, so I left; in reality, I think it was just my higher powers way of kicking me in the butt and telling me to move on for after this I never returned to the corporate world - I became a dive instructor instead so it worked out in the end. I realize we're talking about the trail, but #$%^ happens.

    simple and honest respect is what is needed, for the trail, for the wildlife, for the humans regardless of familial relationships. and for those few that don't understand that, the few that make up that negative part of society, it is up to the rest of us to watch out for the other when needed, male or female, plain and simple

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedbuzzard View Post
    I think part of my disagreement with some guy's behavior is that they too often (some almost always) assume a protective father/big brother role when in the presence of almost any woman, even when it's not warranted (I would agree that occasionally it is, and will likely be welcomed). We all have varying degrees of "sheepdog" in us - but when it's turned on 24/7 it becomes tedious, even obnoxious, to be around.
    I totally agree with this. It's only slightly less annoying than being "creepy".

  18. #58

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    I also get annoyed with the "protective" role that some people take... despite their good intentions.

    For example, I hate it when someone carries my backpack without permission (eg. up the stairs at a hostel).

    I appreciate the thought, but always ask if I need help first!
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  19. #59
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    I once offered my seat on the subway to an obviously pregnant woman and she was actually insulted that I thought she might want to sit down. For guys with old fashioned views of how to behave, it can be a mine field out there but all things considered this is hardly a major concern especially on the trail.
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sierra2015 View Post
    ...

    However... we really do have the same core belief. That we should always treat others with respect.
    To all this and the issue of boundaries, I wish to add the Golden Rule applies in all its aspects, If someone is uncomfortable with such a family type relationship - respect that as you would like your needs to be respected for who you are.

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