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  1. #1
    Registered User 1234's Avatar
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    Default NORO virus how it is spread, some ideas

    My daughter thru hiked the AT last year. She hiked in a small bubble. About half her group got the NORO virus, she did not. The group talked about the virus and what to do to not get it, yet still half did. I asked what her thoughts were on who did and who did not. 1st she washed her hands and rinsed in pumped water. Same for cooking utensils. She got sick years ago from contaminated cookware so she learned this lesson. She did not share food. She did not share other things you put in your mouth that burn. Just before Erwin while camping at a stream one night people started puking. They first went to the stream to clean up. They skipped shelters and camped prior to or after a shelter at a stream as did many others. The group broke up as the sick stayed behind. Thinking back things she noticed. Those who treated water from streams did not let the Aqua react for 5 min, they waited at most 1 min and when it turned yellow they poured it into their bottle. The water is always cold, they started using it 15 min later not waiting a full 30 for cold water. Some said well I am also boiling it, but in fact it they merely brought it to a boil and used it. Seeing what her group did and how they used the streams, she thinks the streams are the source of contamination along with all the campsites and shelters. It is spread by contact. 50% of her group had become sources for spreading the virus. She thinks the simple act of washing your hands and utensils in purified water and not sharing items and food was why she did not contact the virus. Watch people, watch their habits, you will soon pick out the ones that will get sick and the ones who "may" not. The virus will be out there this year also. Pay attention to the directions on purifying water, pay attention to what you use untreated water for. Pay attention to where you camp, as the night before someone may have been sick in the very spot you are camped.

  2. #2

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    My first question is how do they know they had been infected with the norovirus? The symptoms displayed can be linked to hundreds of little thingys. That's the thing about self diagnosis, you really can't do it on your own; it takes technology to determine what infects you.

    Also, I'm skeptical about infection via water source on the trail. The thing about getting infected by little things is that it is so, so easy, but especially easy to get infected by the norovirus.

    I agree that the way her friends were treating water was bad, but then again I don't treat water, so who am I to say



    See here, an article that puts it in perspective, a little, of how easy it is to get infected. http://www.realclearscience.com/blog...norovirus.html

    Excerpt:

    "They are incredibly infectious. The average person needs to come into contact with just 18 of these little viruses to become sick. Compare that number to say, Salmonella, which may require about 100,000 bacterial cells to cause illness. That explains why hundreds of people on cruise ships get sick."






    Maybe they were infected by norovirus or maybe something else. I don't worry too much about these things; I see getting sick as getting healthy. Seems like we're too concerned with isolating ourselves from these little thingys too much. Just get infected and get it over with

  3. #3
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    As you hike along the trail you will come across places where there are common hand holds, places where nearly everyone will grab on to. A tree, a limb maybe a rock outcropping. I've always though these places could also be a source. Maybe not the main source.

    I think sharing food, drink and sleeping in shelters is the main cause.
    "Chainsaw" GA-ME 2011

  4. #4
    Registered User lonehiker's Avatar
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    Default

    Water only has to be brought to a boil.
    Lonehiker (MRT '22)

  5. #5

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    Noro is one of those things that is EVERYWHERE. Unfortunately when on the trail, folks don't have the amenities that they are used to and cleanliness takes a back seat to simplicity and weight. The instructions on the water purification systems are there for a reason and if hikers are in groups it only increases the risk that someone will be a carrier for noro or rhinovirus. One of the reasons I am leary of staying in shelters is the even more increased risk of someone passing through recently that was a carrier or still contagious with one of the above mentioned two viruses. My advice, Take Hand Sanitizer and use it anytime you "get the call from nature" and before handling food.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraken Skullz View Post
    .. My advice, Take Hand Sanitizer and use it anytime you "get the call from nature" and before handling food.
    Just need to point out that alcohol based hand sanitizer does not kill Noro. Bleach or Hydrogen Peroxide does. You can get Hydrogen Peroxide wipes, but you need to keep them sealed and out of the sun for them to remain effective (same for bleach)

  7. #7
    Registered User The Cleaner's Avatar
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    It's not the water or shelter unless there is fresh vomit or feces there. It starts via feces to mouth contact, such as not washing your hands after doing #2. Not many places to wash up after you go. Use TP and wash as soon as possible and do not wash in the water supply source at a shelter....

  8. #8
    Registered User 1234's Avatar
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    My first question is how do they know they had been infected with the noro virus? Well lots of folks said "I am skipping the shelters" they did but they all camped in the same spots. The noro was confirmed as being on the trail again. Several people started puking all night long on the same night, thus they must have picked up the virus from same place. They puked in the stream they wiped off the puke in the stream, they stayed there for days puking. I can only guess that the stream is contaminated. Noro is not everywhere it gets spread where people are in large numbers like daycare, schools, ships, and hostels. The noro is not just another simple virus you have a day or 2 and you are back to normal. It has gotten stronger putting some people in the hospital or being laid out for up to 2 weeks or more. I am glad someone said alcohol was useless, because relying on hand sanitizer that is alcohol based will not keep you safe as it does kill noro virus. Soap and water does. Amazing. Back to basics. To kill germs water needs to boil for 10 min I could not find how long it took for boiling water to kill noro. If someone can answer this please do.

  9. #9

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    Hand sanitizer DOES help prevent the spread of viruses of most kinds. Obviously if you have soap and water that is preferred but most people don't stop and find a clean water source and bust out the camp soap every time that they go hiking.

    See the link below for more info. Pretty sure the CDC knows more about this than we do.

    http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/preventing-infection.html
    "Truth is anything you can convince someone else to believe" - Me

  10. #10
    Registered User lonehiker's Avatar
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    Quote: To kill germs water needs to boil for 10 min

    Once again, this is a false statement. Water only has to come to a boil.
    Lonehiker (MRT '22)

  11. #11
    Registered User Heeler59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonehiker View Post
    Quote: To kill germs water needs to boil for 10 min

    Once again, this is a false statement. Water only has to come to a boil.

    This is true, water only has to come to a boil. Please read the CDC information. It is the most up to date, and the most accurate. Norovirus is spread in close quarters person to person, usually contaminated food or equipment. It is not coming from water obtained from a running stream.

  12. #12
    Registered User 1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeler59 View Post
    This is true, water only has to come to a boil. Please read the CDC information. It is the most up to date, and the most accurate. Norovirus is spread in close quarters person to person, usually contaminated food or equipment. It is not coming from water obtained from a running stream.
    If you are going to quote someone please quote, " To kill germs water needs to boil for 10 min I could not find how long it took for boiling water to kill noro. If someone can answer this please do." I have checked all the links and charts and still have no answer, one chart did have 10 min boil AT 100 degrees C or 212degrees for 10 min to kill one type of virus. Per the chart different germs, virus's and protozoa took different temperatures for different length of time to be killed. NORO was not on the chart. So we have no real answer, we only now know that it is a possibility that it may be killed at a lower temp than a boil.

  13. #13
    Registered User 4eyedbuzzard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1234 View Post
    If you are going to quote someone please quote, " To kill germs water needs to boil for 10 min I could not find how long it took for boiling water to kill noro. If someone can answer this please do." I have checked all the links and charts and still have no answer, one chart did have 10 min boil AT 100 degrees C or 212degrees for 10 min to kill one type of virus. Per the chart different germs, virus's and protozoa took different temperatures for different length of time to be killed. NORO was not on the chart. So we have no real answer, we only now know that it is a possibility that it may be killed at a lower temp than a boil.
    There are literally dozens of different "Norwalk like" virus strains, which are all regularly lumped together and called norovirus. It isn't just one distinct "critter". They are all enteric (intestinal) viruses.
    "That's the thing about possum innards - they's just as good the second day." - Jed Clampett

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedbuzzard View Post
    There are literally dozens of different "Norwalk like" virus strains, which are all regularly lumped together and called norovirus. It isn't just one distinct "critter". They are all enteric (intestinal) viruses.
    I wouldn't want any of them. So I treat my water, and use the approved 2 ply squares for bottom floggin...do you really want to get these critters in your gut.

    b98dd26026f9e88558695a6126977719_full.jpgmg_giardia.jpgfemale-celeb-in-Beard-04.jpgpopoval2-430W.jpg

  15. #15
    Registered User 1234's Avatar
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    correction "vibrio cholerac takes 100 degrees C for 10 sec" to be killed.

  16. #16

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    True. Also, by the time the water is at a rolling boil, it has already been at a temp where any bacteria, protozoa and viruses have been killed or sterilized. Either way, wash your hands when possible, when you can't take whatever precautions you can if you think you are in a high risk area.
    "Truth is anything you can convince someone else to believe" - Me

  17. #17

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    From my observations, many hikers don't actually bring their water to a boil. I know I rarely do. A few bubbles forming on the bottom of the pot is usually all that is necessary to rehydrate their food.

    When testing different alcohol stoves on my patio (which is the only time I have a thermometer), I've found that the water rarely gets over 180F for how I actually rehydrate food in the back country.

  18. #18
    Registered User 4eyedbuzzard's Avatar
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    No need to boil. 180° F will outright kill pretty much all enteric pathogens. For comparison, milk is pasteurized at 160° for 15 seconds, which reduces pathogen populations to such small levels where they won't cause illness.

  19. #19

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    It's a good thing to have good hygiene practices, but when dealing with something as contagious as norovirus (or any number of other diseases) I wouldn't worry/overanalyze how to prevent it. Who knows maybe you'll be lucky enough to get sick with a strain that boosts your immune system


    http://io9.com/5730895/swine-flu-giv...al-flu-vaccine

  20. #20
    Thru-hiker 2013 NoBo CarlZ993's Avatar
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    I missed the 2013 noro epidemic on the AT (saw people sick from Hot Springs to Waynesboro VA). Don't know how. I almost always slept in the shelters. I did use alcohol gel like it was going out of style (even after I learned that it was often ineffective). I didn't share any food. Used alcohol gel after writing in shelter logs. Used Aquamira for water purification (followed the instructions).

    I spoke to a guy from the Health Department in Erwin (after he had interviewed someone w/ Noro). He told me that you don't gain an immunity from the disease after you catch it. He told me that you are still contagious for a few days after you no longer show symptoms.

    I've never had giardia before. I understand that malady also causes diarrhea as well. I don't know how you can tell the difference between the two viruses.

    Noro was a nasty virus on the trail. I hope it isn't as bad for the 2014 thru-hikers. Word for the wise, pack extra TP at all time. You never know if & when it will hit.

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