Great Smoky Mountain Weirdness??

[JumpMaster Blaster]

So let me get this straight- the only options for thru-hikers in the Smokys is to bed it down in the shelters???

The only option for a section hiker is to bed it down in the shelters.

What if I'm doing a section & the shelter is full? What if I'm a thru hiker & the shelter is full?

What I'm getting at is this: if I'm doing a section hike I'd rather stay in a tent, but when is that allowed in the Great Smoky weirdness Nat'l Park?

And what if you plan a section hike, and all the spaces at the shelter are reserved? THEN do you get to tent (if that's a preference of yours). I'm so confused. My preference is to tent, 100% of the time during my hike, whether section or thru.

[Starchild]

Visitors to the Smokys must reserve space in the shelter. Thru hikers are exempt for this (along with long distance hikers who qualify under their definition meant to mean thru hikers). If you reserve you should have a space in the shelters available to you. They don't overbook as they would rather less people go as that lowers impact.

So 'in theory' all visitors have reserved spots in shelters, all thru hikers come under different guidelines and can tent if needed.

In practice the lines are somewhat blurry.

[mtntopper]

In addition, to qualify as a thru hike, your hike must begin and/or end at least 50 miles on either side of the park.

[MuddyWaters]

What I'm getting at is this: if I'm doing a section hike I'd rather stay in a tent, but when is that allowed in the Great Smoky weirdness Nat'l Park?

And what if you plan a section hike, and *gasp* all the spaces at the shelter are reserved? THEN do you get to tent (if that's a preference of yours). I'm so confused. My preference is to tent, 100% of the time during my hike, whether section or thru.

No tenting allowed at shelters for section hikers, theoretically.

If you dont have shelter reservations, you simply cannot legally go. Apply as early as allowed, and you will get them.

[Leanthree]

If you only like to tent then I wouldn't recommend the AT in GSMNP as a section hiker. There are tons of public lands to visit which allow tenting.

[Ox97GaMe]

I don't understand why so many people have problems understanding the rule.

You can ONLY camp outside a shelter if...
a) you are entering the park under a thru-hiker permit AND
b) the shelter is full

All others must have a general backcountry permit and stay inside the shelter.

[daddytwosticks]

I've booked shelter reservations twice so far for my AT trips through the park. The new system works great. Just plan early and book at the 30 day point and you should be fine.

[Gambit McCrae]

I studied these rules quite thoroughly and this is exactly what the rules are:

Everyone must buy a permit which means you register for what nights you will be staying at what shelter.

Now, Lets say you are staying at a shelter that holds 10 people.
2 of those spots are reserved for thru hikers, so right off the bat there are only 8 spots available for section hikers.
lets say you are a section hiker, and you get to the shelter and there are 7 section hikers and 3 thru hikers in the shelter, even though you have a permit and a spot in the shelter, your spot has been taken by a thru hiker who does not fall under the "tell the park what shelter you will be staying at" clause so therefore the shelter is legally full, and you as a section hiker can now tent camp RIGHT outside the shelter, not wherever you please along the trail...

[Alligator]

I studied these rules quite thoroughly and this is exactly what the rules are:

Everyone must buy a permit which means you register for what nights you will be staying at what shelter.

Now, Lets say you are staying at a shelter that holds 10 people.
2 of those spots are reserved for thru hikers, so right off the bat there are only 8 spots available for section hikers.
lets say you are a section hiker, and you get to the shelter and there are 7 section hikers and 3 thru hikers in the shelter, even though you have a permit and a spot in the shelter, your spot has been taken by a thru hiker who does not fall under the "tell the park what shelter you will be staying at" clause so therefore the shelter is legally full, and you as a section hiker can now tent camp RIGHT outside the shelter, not wherever you please along the trail...

This is not correct information. Thru-Hikers must always give up bunk space in shelters to those with shelter reservations per GSMNP website. The thruhiker can then tent in the immediate area around the shelter.

Backcountry Permit System is at https://smokiespermits.nps.gov, select General Backcountry or AT Thru-hiker Permits to find the specific permit regs. The General Backcountry Regulations are at http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisi...untry-regs.htm

[Starchild]

This is not correct information. Thru-Hikers must always give up bunk space in shelters to those with shelter reservations per GSMNP website. The thruhiker can then tent in the immediate area around the shelter.

This is my understanding of it also, although the other posting seems to claim studying the rules and may be able to provide additional info.

And the situation he noted (full shelter including the 3 thru hikers), my understanding is yes it is that the thru hiker is suppose to give up the spot to the reservation holding section hiker, but where it gets a little blurry is when the section hiker gets to the shelter late perhaps while all are sleeping and many times would set up tent as opposed to waking everyone in the shelter to find out who should move. Though in this I have heard some section holders intentionally getting to the shelter late so that they hopefully can tent.

[Starchild]

Rules allow a someone holding a thru hiking (long distance, whatever) permit to tent if the shelter if full.

The Smoky shelters are very large, many (all?) contain dual level sleeping platforms and a dirt floor in a tarp enclosed section, then a equally as large roofed section on the other side of the tarp.

Where is a thru hiker suppose to sleep? on the dirt floor near the tarp enclosed sleeping area, under the roofed section of the outside the tarped area, or near but outside of the shelter? Or are any combo's of these OK. I did have some thru hikers put down a ground cover on the dirt floor inside the tarped area on crowded (and cold) situations where the shelter was full, is that acceptable under the rules?

[Gambit McCrae]

My point exactly, say said section hiker gets to shelter and all is quiet, and dark. He sees that the shelter is full, is he going to wake everyone up so that one body can lay on the ground instead of his own? nope. lol

Anyone that is hiking in the smokies on the AT should (no not all are) be prepared in the since that they have a secondary shelter. Lets say you get to the shelter and its burnt to the ground, or a huge tree has fallen on it, or even just that a couple ol' thru hikers got there first... I dont think that if everyone has a permit, that a ranger is going to care if there is a thru hiker in the shelter and a sectioner in a tent. If the shelter is full, its full.

Oh and not to sound frumpy, but that incorrect information/ Example? Has been explained to me by both a park ranger in Cades Cove as well as a ridgerunner along the trail.

[Alligator]

I was adding the links when you quoted me Starchild. The area around the shelter is available for camping for a thru if the shelter is full.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I don't understand why so many people have problems understanding the rule.

You can ONLY camp outside a shelter if...
a) you are entering the park under a thru-hiker permit AND
b) the shelter is full

All others must have a general backcountry permit and stay inside the shelter.

The main reason people don't understand it is because the park is the ONLY section of the 2080 mile long A.T. that has these restrictions, so it's not something that people that have hiked other parts of the trail are anticipating. If it weren't for this site, I probably wouldnt know about the GSMNP shelter restrictions either.

[Alligator]

My point exactly, say said section hiker gets to shelter and all is quiet, and dark. He sees that the shelter is full, is he going to wake everyone up so that one body can lay on the ground instead of his own? nope. lol

Anyone that is hiking in the smokies on the AT should (no not all are) be prepared in the since that they have a secondary shelter. Lets say you get to the shelter and its burnt to the ground, or a huge tree has fallen on it, or even just that a couple ol' thru hikers got there first... I dont think that if everyone has a permit, that a ranger is going to care if there is a thru hiker in the shelter and a sectioner in a tent. If the shelter is full, its full.

Oh and not to sound frumpy, but that incorrect information/ Example? Has been explained to me by both a park ranger in Cades Cove as well as a ridgerunner along the trail.

That's all well and good until you sleep late in your tent the next morning and you get a ticket and a "tell it to the judge" because the thruhikers filling up the shelter are up and gone.

How one ranger interprets the regs may differ from another. I don't much expect anyone getting hassled but those are the rules listed.

Everyone can show some courtesy given the situation. Sectioners arrive at a reasonable hour and thrus know the rules and give up the spot, the sectioner has not written the rules.

[bigcranky]

That's all well and good until you sleep late in your tent the next morning and you get a ticket and a "tell it to the judge" because the thruhikers filling up the shelter are up and gone.

This is easily avoided if you have a permit, treat the ranger with respect, and explain the situation. The rangers don't expect you to enforce the shelter rules by yourself.

The people who get tickets or escorted from the park don't have permits and/or give the ranger a hard time.

[HooKooDooKu]

...Where is a thru hiker suppose to sleep? on the dirt floor near the tarp enclosed sleeping area, under the roofed section of the outside the tarped area, or near but outside of the shelter? Or are any combo's of these OK. I did have some thru hikers put down a ground cover on the dirt floor inside the tarped area on crowded (and cold) situations where the shelter was full, is that acceptable under the rules?

I have studied many of the GSMNP rules... beyond those published on the back of the Trail Map and those listed on the web page for obtaining permits...

...and I must say that I don't recall any rule that says you many not sleep on the dirt floor inside a shelter.

The only applicable rules that come to mind say something along the lines...:
1. Hammocks many not be attached to any part of a shelter.
2. Only thru hikers may tent in the area around a shelter when the shelter is full (I think this implies you can not setup a tent inside a shelter)
3. Hammocks are treated like tents
4. Thru hikers must give up there spot in a shelter to section hiker with a permit.

However, the rules also seem to imply that a shelter is "full" when all the platform spots have been taken (i.e. you're not expected to sleep on the dirt floor even if it is not prohibited).

[Coffee]

So if a shelter accommodates eight people and seven spots are taken, with gear taking up what could be the eight spot, and one arrives at 10pm, it is required to disturb the occupants to make room or face a possible fine the next morning for tenting. I really dislike the GSMNP system, much more so than any other wilderness permit system than I know of. And that's one reason I haven't backpacked there and probably will not except on an AT thru hike when I'll make every effort to hike through the park as quickly as possible to minimize the number of nights within that jurisdiction (which perhaps is the goal - lowering use).

[HeartFire]

There are plenty of campsites in the GSMNP. If you don't want to stay in a shelter, dont' hike the AT, there is over 800 miles of fabulous trails in the park. 90% of which are much better than the AT.

[Alligator]

This is easily avoided if you have a permit, treat the ranger with respect, and explain the situation. The rangers don't expect you to enforce the shelter rules by yourself.

The people who get tickets or escorted from the park don't have permits and/or give the ranger a hard time.

I agree and like I said in my post "I don't much expect anyone to get hassled".