Some People don't 'believe' in alcohol/can stoves

[Sarcasm the elf]

I had to bail from a 9 day trip because of the smoke of the Yosemite Rim and American fires last summer. It was really miserable here. I REALLY appreciate you posting this.

As a complete and utter coincidence, at around the 1:00 mark you will see a guy in the background with a orange/copper rain jacket, beer and cigarette. That's the guy that later worked at my local outfitter and spent many hours helping me select gear and talking shop. I had no idea that he hiked with Jester until I watched Wizards of the PCT and saw that he hiked with their group for the last 1/3 of the PCT.

[zelph]

I hate my Whisperlite. It's noisy, temperamental, and seems to think I look better with singed eyebrows. But there's nothing like a naphtha stove for melting snow. Otherwise, I bring my soda can stove. It always lights, never flares in my face, and never clogs. And if I should happen to spill fuel, it won't eat holes in nylon. It's not that it doesn't work in winter. It works admirably. The alcohol is just too heavy when you need to boil 4-6 liters of water a day just to drink.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Wood fires are for melting snow. No stove needed, just pile up the fuel, ignite and put pot on. Be the best scout you can be....

[JumpMaster Blaster]

I have a Jetboil Flash (which I love). I like being able to control the fire if the need arises, I dont have the open 3" flame to worry about, and I can kill the flame on demand. I keep track of how much fuel I use by writing the # of minutes its been running in permanent marker on the canister. 1 lasts for about 60 minutes at full bore. I've gone thru 3 and they all lasted between 50-60 mins. To boil 16 oz of water I mark off 5 minutes to err on the side of caution.

if I use my cat stove or Esbit or Primus stove that changes what I need to bring. Now I need a pot and/or a mug and have to tailor my meals around that.

I'm going to take all 4 out to field test in the next month. I'm very much a newbie, so even though I did a "boil water test" at home with them all, I'll have a pretty objective view. Maybe.

[July]

Checking on You Jump Master.

[Mags]

Wood fires are for melting snow. No stove needed, just pile up the fuel, ignite and put pot on. Be the best scout you can be....

When the wood is under several feet of snow, may be a bit more difficult and time consuming....

[Alligator]

Any valid reasons not to use a Trangia alcohol burner? It seems like the Svea 123 of alcohol burners.

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

Nothing wrong with using it. There are lighter and more efficient alcohol options. I always liked mine. I have a brasslite as well and I would suggest that its style is also similar to the Svea.

[Venchka]

Nothing wrong with using it. There are lighter and more efficient alcohol options. I always liked mine. I have a brasslite as well and I would suggest that its style is also similar to the Svea.

I ask because the Trangia has a sliding plate for flame control and shut off. It Certainly looks bulletproof and has been around nearly 100 years. They must be doing something right.

Wayne



Sent from somewhere around here.

[Venchka]

Define "more efficient". I'm sure the cat food "stoves" are lighter. Burning alcohol is burning alcohol. Why are some stoves thought to be more efficient?

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

[Alligator]

Define "more efficient". I'm sure the cat food "stoves" are lighter. Burning alcohol is burning alcohol. Why are some stoves thought to be more efficient?

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

They use less fuel to boil the same amount of water.

[Venchka]

They use less fuel to boil the same amount of water.

How do they do that? Side by side with the Trangia? I do not mean to be a PITA, but I just want some facts before I make any changes.
Actually, it's no big deal. If I get an alcohol burner it will be the Trangia.
Thank you.

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

[Alligator]

How do they do that? Side by side with the Trangia? I do not mean to be a PITA, but I just want some facts before I make any changes.
Actually, it's no big deal. If I get an alcohol burner it will be the Trangia.
Thank you.

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

The Stovies are pretty precise about it but I will attempt a general description. They carefully measure out say 2 cups of water into the pot. They measure wind speed, water temperature, the exact dimensions of the pot, presence of a wind screen, 6 month oil futures in London, etc. Then they measure how long it takes to boil the water how much fuel it took etc. Controlled experiments. They will probably build a stove while conducting said experiment, I think its required actually. Then they will post their data and savagely question each others stove parentage while arguing whether Adam or Eve was the first to cook on a wood stove.

But seriously, folks do run stove experiments under controlled conditions and some stoves are more efficient than others. There's not a lot of spectacular weight savings from the stove itself once you get down to using alcohol stoves but it is significant to the gram weenies if they can squeeze a couple of extra drops of alcohol out of those puppies. Whatever makes them happy.

Now some retailers will provide efficiency ratings for stoves on their websites. I've made comparisons with canister stoves that way.

[Odd Man Out]

How do they do that? Side by side with the Trangia? I do not mean to be a PITA, but I just want some facts before I make any changes...

I've not use a Trangia, but have used Super Cat stoves. The reason that it is relatively inefficient is that it is a fast burning side burner style stove so much of the heat goes up the side of the pot and is not delivered to the water. Also, with a super cat, the stove must be primed and the heat released during priming is not available for heating water. From tests I've read with a Trangia, it would seem to be a less powerful, but more efficient stove. It's just like cars. A Viper and a Yaris can both burn a gallon of gas. The Viper will do 200 mph (very powerful) but the Yaris will still be going after 40 miles (very efficient). Not all cars get the same gas mileage just as not all alcohol stoves have the same efficiency.

From what I've seen, if you can boil 2 cups of room temperature water in optimal conditions with less than 15 mL of alcohol, your system is pretty efficient. If you can boil 2 cups in under 4 minutes, your system is pretty powerful. With the right system, you can get both. Note that you need to consider the whole system (stove, pot stand, wind screen, and pot). They work together.

[yerbyray]

When the wood is under several feet of snow, may be a bit more difficult and time consuming....

All kidding aside, the best firewood is the "Squaw wood" or is that politically incorrect...the female native american wood that is dead and still hanging on the tree. It dries faster when it rains, it is less likely to be rotten, and easily accessible.

Ya'll probably knew that already.

[Mags]

All kidding aside, the best firewood is the "Squaw wood" or is that politically incorrect...the female native american wood that is dead and still hanging on the tree. It dries faster when it rains, it is less likely to be rotten, and easily accessible.

Ya'll probably knew that already.

I am pretty sure the park service, if the allowed fires, would strongly suggest to not strip trees of wood be it dead or otherwise. Esp in the quantity needed to melt snow for about 10 people.

[JumpMaster Blaster]

Checking on You Jump Master.

Doing great!

[Venchka]

Thanks everyone. My mind is at ease now. Or totally befuddled. Given my advanced years I rarely know the difference.
Alligator, thanks for the morning amusement. I like it.
I do tend to sacrifice an ounce or two for dependability and longevity. I err on the side of bulletproof. I am beginning to see the light re: total kitchen weight.
Perhaps I will dust off my BNIB antique Esbit stove and fuel that I have had since forever. I wouldn't want to rush into anything.

Wayne

[rafe]

Listed by overall weight (lightest first)

1 alky, esbit
2 canister, passive wood-burning
3 Jetboil
4 white gas, active wood-burning (eg. Zip)

Listed by convenience (most convenient first)

1 Jetboil
2 Canister
3 alky
4 white gas
5 esbit, wood-burning (any)

Listed by heat output and fuel efficiency (most efficient first)

1 white gas, active wood burning
2 Jetboil
3 canister
4 passive wood burning
5 alky
6 esbit

Listed by cost of stove (most $$ first)

1 Jetboil, Zip, white gas
2 Canister, passive wood-burning
3 alky, esbit


So you pick what's important to you and proceed from there. It's not a matter of "belief" so much as habit and personal taste and maybe the specifics of the hike (duration, season, availability of fuel, drought conditions & fire bans, etc.)

Jetboil and canister are very similar -- Jetboil is just a canister stove integrated with pot, lid, heat exchanger, windscreen. Da whole kitchen, minus the spork and plastic cup.

Wood stoves are of two kinds: Sierra Zip stove is an "active" system with a battery-powered fan to breathe air into the fire. Other wood stoves are passive, basically just pot stands under which you build your wood fire.

White gas technology is ancient. Svea, Whisperlite, Coleman Peak-1, etc. Some of these stoves can use ordinary gasoline. Popular on the AT until maybe 15-20 yrs. ago. The Whisperlite Internationale was one of the most hated stoves on the trail because of the intense racket it made. White gas stoves can be noisy.

[colorado_rob]

Listed by overall weight (lightest first)

1 alky, esbit
2 canister, passive wood-burning
3 Jetboil
4 white gas, active wood-burning (eg. Zip)

Listed by convenience (most convenient first)

1 Jetboil
2 Canister
3 alky
4 white gas
5 esbit, wood-burning (any)

Listed by heat output and fuel efficiency (most efficient first)

1 white gas, active wood burning
2 Jetboil
3 canister
4 passive wood burning
5 alky
6 esbit

Listed by cost of stove (most $$ first)

1 Jetboil, Zip, white gas
2 Canister, passive wood-burning
3 alky, esbit


So you pick what's important to you and proceed from there. It's not a matter of "belief" so much as habit and personal taste and maybe the specifics of the hike (duration, season, availability of fuel, drought conditions & fire bans, etc.)

Jetboil and canister are very similar -- Jetboil is just a canister stove integrated with pot, lid, heat exchanger, windscreen. Da whole kitchen, minus the spork and plastic cup.

Wood stoves are of two kinds: Sierra Zip stove is an "active" system with a battery-powered fan to breathe air into the fire. Other wood stoves are passive, basically just pot stands under which you build your wood fire.

White gas technology is ancient. Svea, Whisperlite, Coleman Peak-1, etc. Some of these stoves can use ordinary gasoline. Popular on the AT until maybe 15-20 yrs. ago. The Whisperlite Internationale was one of the most hated stoves on the trail because of the intense racket it made. White gas stoves can be noisy.

Nice list, summarizes a lot of things. I do, however, dispute that white gas is more efficient than a Jetboil canister. First of all, propane/butane mix has about 10.9 KCAL/gram of heat, whereas gasoline has 10.4. Pretty close, but a slight advantage for canisters. Then there is that heat exchanger on the Jetboil that my field tests have shown to bump the fuel efficiency by about 25% (conservatively) over regular pots w/o a heat exchanger. Jetboils and other canister stoves that have a heat exchanger (are there any others?) are the clear fuel efficiency champs.

Poor old Alcohol comes in at about 6 KCAL/gm, which is the main reason why I do not "believe in alcohol stoves". The fuel is just too darn heavy. Or I'm just too impatient. Both. For short trips though, when you are not doing a lot of water heats, an UL alchy setup can be the overall weight champ easily, again, if one has the patience!

You think a whisperlite is noisy? You should hear the MSR XGK! A rocket. Still, fine stoves, both of them, for high, cold conditions they can't be beat.

[rafe]

I didn't run the numbers on white gas vs. isobutane (canister fuel) in kcal/gram. But I'll say this -- it was common for hikers to be carrying 16 and 22 oz. canisters of fuel with their Whisperlites. Easily cook three proper meals a day for ten days in a row with that rig.

MSR also has the "Simmerlite" which is a weight-reduced Whisperlite. Still, overall, a lot of infrastructure weight between the bottle, pump and burner unit.

[soulrebel]

Solid fuel tabs-hexamine-esbit are far lighter than alcohol stoves - metal tri wing is half the weight of the lightest alky stoves. Fuel is definately lighter. As a result, gram for gram on fuel it would be the most efficient of them all for oz of water boiled and fuel consumed. I'd also say that Esbit is definately not last in convenience. It can be hard to light if you don't use a torch lighter, but setup is just as easy as cannister and definately less fiddle than setting and filling an alky stove... Either way none of them are that inconvenient. However cannister stoves, need a more stable platform and are prone to falling over, alky stoves are prone to spillage/waste, over-burning without being able to be extinguished easily, and need a fairly stable platform. However both are faster than solid fuel, mainly because they burn hotter, burn more fuel in less time, and/or produce a larger flame "bloom" than the solid fuel. Great for bigger meals/hot bev, but you need a wider pot for alcohol burners/less important for micro jet cannisters. Esbit is slower burning, small bloom, easy to extinguish, no spillage, no chance of cannister/pin failure, and can be setup on uneven ground with less worry. A better fuel particularly if you use a cup or pot with less than 4 inch diameter... Environment foremost, size of the burner, and pot size play a part in the scenario. For example, I wouldn't take solid fuel or alky to a windy coastal trip, or high alt mountains...