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  1. #81
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
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    I backpack with this stove now:


    The beef simmered in wine is divine...

    Paul "Mags" Magnanti
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    The true harvest of my life is intangible...a little stardust caught,a portion of the rainbow I have clutched -Thoreau

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafe View Post
    Listed by overall weight (lightest first)

    1 alky, esbit
    2 canister, passive wood-burning
    ...
    Another thing to list might be fuel availability, which of course would be quite variable depending on where you hike.

    As for the rankings of alcohol stoves, I would suggest they are highly variable because among the types of stoves listed, they are the most diverse, especially in the areas of power, efficiency, and convenience. It is not uncommon to see people criticize alcohol stoves based on their experience with (or what they have been told about) rather unsophisticated systems.

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    Hard to beat a Coleman for camping . I have one over 30 years old- it just won't quit.

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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odd Man Out View Post
    From what I've seen, if you can boil 2 cups of room temperature water in optimal conditions with less than 15 mL of alcohol, your system is pretty efficient. If you can boil 2 cups in under 4 minutes, your system is pretty powerful. With the right system, you can get both. Note that you need to consider the whole system (stove, pot stand, wind screen, and pot). They work together.
    Yup! I can make the 15 ml bogey but not the 4 minute one. Fine with me, I wasn't in a hurry, so I'm not devoting a lot more time to stove-tuning. Maybe after I accidentally stomp my current one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mags View Post
    I am pretty sure the park service, if the allowed fires, would strongly suggest to not strip trees of wood be it dead or otherwise. Esp in the quantity needed to melt snow for about 10 people.
    Uhm, what he said. I know that it's the law in my state to use only dead and down wood for a campfire. Standing dead wood, or dead wood still on the tree, is off limits. And I don't want to mess with a wood fire several times a day to refill water bottles.
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  5. #85
    Registered User colorado_rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odd Man Out View Post
    From what I've seen, if you can boil 2 cups of room temperature water in optimal conditions with less than 15 mL of alcohol, your system is pretty efficient. If you can boil 2 cups in under 4 minutes, your system is pretty powerful.
    I hate to keep dwelling on actual heat values and numbers, call it an ex-occupational hazard, but I know I get right around 16-20 2-cup boils out of a 4 ounce canister in a Jetboil, meaning 0.2-0.25 ounces of fuel per boil, and it takes about 90 seconds. 15ml of Alcohol is close to 0.5 ounces, about twice the fuel, and a whole lot more time. Alcohol is simply not an efficient fuel; the heat content is 60% of propane/butane.

    Of course, the 4 ounces of propane/butane come in a 3.5 ounce canister, which is dead weight. But still, even an alcohol container weighs about an ounce, more for a big bottle, so the total weight to do 18 2-cup boils (the average of 16-20) would be about 10 ounces, vs. 7.5 for a propane/butane canister. For short trips, say 9 boils, that's 5.5 ounces for alcohol (4.5+1 for bottle), the same 7.5 for a canister, and alcohol wins. So from a pure weight standpoint, short trips alcohol is most efficient, longer trips, canisters take over.

    So again, not a matter of believing, just hard math and experience. I've tried alcohol for weekend trips, saves a few ounces, but I just cannot get over the glacial pace of my water heating. I suppose I need to chill out a bit....

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    I hate to keep dwelling on actual heat values and numbers, call it an ex-occupational hazard, but I know I get right around 16-20 2-cup boils out of a 4 ounce canister in a Jetboil, meaning 0.2-0.25 ounces of fuel per boil, and it takes about 90 seconds. 15ml of Alcohol is close to 0.5 ounces, about twice the fuel, and a whole lot more time. Alcohol is simply not an efficient fuel; the heat content is 60% of propane/butane.

    Of course, the 4 ounces of propane/butane come in a 3.5 ounce canister, which is dead weight. But still, even an alcohol container weighs about an ounce, more for a big bottle, so the total weight to do 18 2-cup boils (the average of 16-20) would be about 10 ounces, vs. 7.5 for a propane/butane canister. For short trips, say 9 boils, that's 5.5 ounces for alcohol (4.5+1 for bottle), the same 7.5 for a canister, and alcohol wins. So from a pure weight standpoint, short trips alcohol is most efficient, longer trips, canisters take over.

    So again, not a matter of believing, just hard math and experience. I've tried alcohol for weekend trips, saves a few ounces, but I just cannot get over the glacial pace of my water heating. I suppose I need to chill out a bit....
    There are points where weight catches up for different stove+fuel types.

    First though, you have taken Odd Man Out out of context. He's discussing efficiency vs power for alcohol stoves.

    Second, you are mixing up ounces of weight and fluid ounces--15ml=.507 fluid oz. The specific gravity of say denatured alcohol is 0.81. Make that 0.81g/ml and that 15 ml is about 0.42 oz. So 18 boils is 7.56 oz. I just happen to have an 8 oz nestle water bottle handy and it weighs 0.37 oz. I don't have the typical 12 bottle I would put alcohol in handy to weigh but even if I double that it's only .74 oz. So about 8.3 oz.

    Third then, the alcohol is 0.8 oz overweight. And you are right, it's about 2:1 in weight per boil. So in about 4 boils, the alcohol user is equivalent in weight and less for the next 14 boils. So you are carrying less weight for 4 boils and more for 14 boils, however long that takes you. But on average, you are carrying more weight with the jetboil.

    Finally, I am reasonably confident that you are stuck with a fixed stove+pot weight with a jetboil that can be beat with an alcohol+pot setup. Windscreen + stove + titan tea kettle ~6 oz vs. ti jetboil at 8.5 oz.

    Your math is not adding up in your example. But as you said there times and situations were the efficiency switches(and here mainly efficiency =weight). But for 18 boils, it's still alcohol over the Jetboil.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    I hate to keep dwelling on actual heat values and numbers, call it an ex-occupational hazard, but I know I get right around 16-20 2-cup boils out of a 4 ounce canister in a Jetboil, meaning 0.2-0.25 ounces of fuel per boil, and it takes about 90 seconds. 15ml of Alcohol is close to 0.5 ounces, about twice the fuel, and a whole lot more time. Alcohol is simply not an efficient fuel; the heat content is 60% of propane/butane.....
    Yes, I agree with all of this. The energy density of alcohol is inherently low so the advantages of alcohol stoves lie elsewhere. I was pointing out some benchmarks for comparing one alcohol system to another as there was a question as to why there would be a difference between one alcohol stove and another. It is worth remembering that that alcohol systems are highly diverse, so when comparing a JetBoil to an alcohol system, one should ask "which alcohol system".

  8. #88
    Registered User rickycodie's Avatar
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    Try re hydrating your in a peanut butter jar for a while first, like put lunch in while eating breakfast. Then you just heat it up. It uses less fuel.

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    Hangin' with my homemade M50 hammock!!!
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    of renal failure" - Dale Gribble

  9. #89
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    Thanks Alligator for the detailed analysis. BTW yet another variable that was not taken into account for a long distance hike, how many days would you have to carry two canisters because one might run out before the next resupply point? I don't have any long distance (more than a week) hikes planned in the near future so the nuts and bolts how many days it might take for a Jetboil to have less weight carried per day than an alcohol system is so much a concern for me. I think the take home lesson is that the calculation is so complicated and based on so many variables that will be different for each individual system, person, and hike, it is difficult to make generalizations. FWIW, I'm not really much of a gram weenie. I'm using alcohol stoves mainly because I like building, testing, and using them; they are cool, and it gives me something to do with empty V8 Juice cans. I would also add that if you have an alcohol stove that can do 4 minute boils vs a Jetboil doing 2 minute boils, I don't consider that a whole lot more time. As a very out of shape hiker, I need the rest. Maybe I should go build a SLOWER stove ;-)

  10. #90

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    It is very dependent on the individual and the hike planned, I know compared to other hikers, I use a bit more fuel than many state. This is mainly because I have 3+ cups of hot beverages daily, very often a hot breakfast, and then what one might say a dinner and a supper. I made myself a spreadsheet a ways back and plugged in the stoves I had. I extended it out to 10 days and used my own average fuel usage per day for each stove and then added in the stove weights and the storage bottle weights based on the amount of fuel they would carry. My Simmerlite would out perform my Trangia after 3 days, for some reason, my Trangia is a pig on fuel when I use it. I can't remember why though, I think we had it figured out at one time. This was before I had a canister stove. I find I use about one of the 8oz canisters every 5-6 days. I can fine tune a hike longer than that with a small canister or a half-empty one. There's a large size canister but if I remember correctly the empty weight is too high on that vs. a combination of smaller ones. On the AT, in most cases, you can resupply before the canister runs out. It's more like you get stuck with it because you can't throw it out. This is why empty and half-empty canisters are found at times in the shelters or left at a hostel/resupply point. The little and big ones are sometimes hard to find, but Wal-Mart carries the medium size ones. Problem is they are expensive and for me, my Brasslite still beats out the Lite Max. But for longer trips, the difference is small and I do enjoy the supreme easiness of using the canister stove.

    I've got a woodburner too but I need to do some testing in different conditions before I give an opinion on it. I am more of a lightweight hiker myself. I definitely consider weight but I will also add in some comfort items.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
    Robert Hunter & Ron McKernan

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  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odd Man Out View Post
    Thanks Alligator for the detailed analysis. BTW yet another variable that was not taken into account for a long distance hike, how many days would you have to carry two canisters because one might run out before the next resupply point?
    That to me is the most serious downside of canister stoves -- the difficulty of knowing just how much fuel you have left. I'm often having to decide whether to discard a nearly-empty canister, double up on canisters, or risk running out of fuel. Not an insurmountable issue by any means but it's a problem that could use fixin'.

  12. #92
    Registered User colorado_rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post
    ... you are mixing up ounces of weight and fluid ounces--15ml=.507 fluid oz. The specific gravity of say denatured alcohol is 0.81. Make that 0.81g/ml and that 15 ml is about 0.42 oz. So 18 boils is 7.56 oz. I just happen to have an 8 oz nestle water bottle handy and it weighs 0.37 oz. I don't have the typical 12 bottle I would put alcohol in handy to weigh but even if I double that it's only .74 oz. So about 8.3 oz...
    I guess that's why I'm and "ex-engineer" (actually, retired), not careful enough with my numbers! I wasn't mixing up fluids and weights, but I did assume the specific weight of Alcohol was closer to water, anyway, thanks for the correction. The alcohol bottle I used once is a full ounce, nice to know there are <1/2 ounce that hold 8 ounces. I have this all in a spreadsheet somewhere, I'm going to have to find it because I know my numbers show a crossover at way less than 18 boils; it was something like 3 days for two people, which for me is about 12 boils.

    Bottom line is that I sure wish I could get over those alcohol boil times! It tickles my fancy to screw a canister on, turn a valve, push an igniter and 90 seconds later (for 12 ounces) I have a cup of coffee.

  13. #93
    Registered User colorado_rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafe View Post
    That to me is the most serious downside of canister stoves -- the difficulty of knowing just how much fuel you have left. I'm often having to decide whether to discard a nearly-empty canister, double up on canisters, or risk running out of fuel. Not an insurmountable issue by any means but it's a problem that could use fixin'.
    Yeah, a downside to canisters, but experience helps, I know I get 7-8 days with a small one, a full 2 weeks with a large one, I never have had to carry two, but I have discarded a few partials. With enough experience, a quick shake of a canister tells you how much is left closely enough.

    The Alchy/Canister debate is endless, but one of the points I was trying to make is that it's not about "not believeing" in Alcohol setups, it's more of a conscious decision based on experience.

    BTW, one other point: I carry emergency fire starters in the form of "trioxane", which I think is essentially the same as esbit? Not 100% sure, since I've never carried actual Esbit. But I carry the trioxane for fire starting, two 1/2 ounce little blocks. Essentially alcohol in a solid form. Turns out they work great for a backup fuel for a Jetboil; set one on a rock, light it, set the Jetboil right on top. 6 minutes later you have 2 cups of boiling water. Since I carry these little puppies anyway (again, for emergency or sometimes social fires), I feel better about carrying nearly-empty canisters, knowing I can get a couple more boils if a canister goes dead. Used them once in that situation.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    Bottom line is that I sure wish I could get over those alcohol boil times! It tickles my fancy to screw a canister on, turn a valve, push an igniter and 90 seconds later (for 12 ounces) I have a cup of coffee.
    The BTU output of canisters is is a big plus, but for me what kills the deal with alky stoves is the inability to regulate the flame, or to extinguish it safely. So you end up in a guessing-game with regard to the initial fuel charge. If you guess on the low side, you'll have to wait for the stove to cool down before you can start it again. There's a priming phase, at least with some alky stoves -- more wasted fuel and time.

    White gas, esbit, and wood don't have that problem, you get to look at the fuel. (OK, white gas stoves need priming too.) Always a compromise, always a tradeoff, no stove is perfect.

    What is pretty amazing is how very fuel-efficient hiking is in general -- compared to many other recreations (motorboats, jet-skis, snowmobiles, downhill skiing, even golf... with motorized carts.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    ...Bottom line is that I sure wish I could get over those alcohol boil times! It tickles my fancy to screw a canister on, turn a valve, push an igniter and 90 seconds later (for 12 ounces) I have a cup of coffee.
    I guess that's the bottom line. Each system has its advantages and disadvantages and each person has their priorities and each hike is different. Then each person gets to choose what works best for them.

  16. #96
    Registered User colorado_rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafe View Post
    What is pretty amazing is how very fuel-efficient hiking is in general -- compared to many other recreations (motorboats, jet-skis, snowmobiles, downhill skiing, even golf... with motorized carts.)
    Yep, we're certainly a green crew, aren't we? Well, except for the large amount of greenhouse gases some of us emit from all the freeze-dried food consumption...

    I found my spreadsheet, I was indeed assuming 1/2 ounce of Alcohol for a 2-cup boil, which is the number I keep reading for an efficient Alchy setup, so it does appear 15ml (0.42 oz) is a very efficient stove. Anyway, at 0.5 ounces and a 0.75 ounce container (mine weighs 1 ounce though), the crossover to where a canister stove is more weight efficient is 13 2-cup boils, which is a 3-day weekend outing for myself and my wife together, basically the Alchy and Jetboil would be a dead-heat (!) tie.

    My canister numbers are based on actual field testing, the 0.5 oz alcohol numbers are based on the 0.5 ounces per boil I read about, not personally tested, though I should as I do have a stove, though not the most efficient, I'm sure.

    All this discussion makes me want to try my little Alchy setup one more time for solo weekend trips and "practice" my patience.

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafe View Post
    what kills the deal with alky stoves is the inability to regulate the flame, or to extinguish it safely. So you end up in a guessing-game with regard to the initial fuel charge.
    It's a guessing game only if you're guessing. Experience fixes that, but a snuffer is only a few tenths of an ounce.

    Quote Originally Posted by rafe View Post
    There's a priming phase, at least with some alky stoves -- more wasted fuel and time
    I hold the pot over the flame, a few inches up, during priming; speeds up the priming and uses those BTUs fairly efficiently.

    Quote Originally Posted by rafe View Post
    Always a compromise, always a tradeoff, no stove is perfect.
    Agreed.

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    What is pretty amazing is how very fuel-efficient hiking is in general -- compared to many other recreations (motorboats, jet-skis, snowmobiles, downhill skiing, even golf... with motorized carts.)


    that can be debated.........

    driving 3 hours one way to do a 5-10 mile hike---i wouldnt exactly that being fuel efficient................

    but, i do it every weekend........

  19. #99

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    Colorado_rob I just do something else while the stove is working...inflate a pad, fetch water, collect firewood, pull out the sleeping bag, etc. If the alcohol is measured into the stove, it's going to burn out. Or keep an eye out for steam, I often have a camp cup ready for a hot drink. My dinner pretty much always needs to sit and rehydrate anyway.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
    Robert Hunter & Ron McKernan

    Whiteblaze.net User Agreement.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafe View Post
    The BTU output of canisters is is a big plus, but for me what kills the deal with alky stoves is the inability to regulate the flame, or to extinguish it safely. So you end up in a guessing-game with regard to the initial fuel charge. If you guess on the low side, you'll have to wait for the stove to cool down before you can start it again. There's a priming phase, at least with some alky stoves -- more wasted fuel and time.
    It's true that I don't regulate the flames, but I wonder how many Jetboil users take advantage of that feature when they are using it just to boil water. As for the other common shortcomings of alcohol stoves, I have worked to solve these problems. My stove doesn't have a priming phase in that you light it and put the pot on immediately so no heat is wasted. It does burn slower for about 10 seconds until the jets get going full blast. I cut the bottom two inches off a 12 oz pop can to use as a snuffer. It instantly extinguishes the stove. I don't guess about fuel load. I just fill the stove. When done, I put it out with the snuffer and suck the extra fuel back into the bottle with one of these.

    http://packafeather.com/fuelbottle.html

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