Joey Camp's Unsupported Record Attempt

[Just Bill]

Slo-go'en,

Going off of your definition, wouldn’t the record still be retained by Ward Leonard? During his hike Matt had purchase food from other hikers while on the trail. Up to that point of purchase, that food weight was carried by other hikers. So he was supported. Ward on the other hand, had to get off trail, go into town and purchase his own food. All this takes time.

Wolf

Rather than debate the technicalities, I think what is interesting is the mutual respect. On a 2200 mile journey the little bits are less critical than on a shorter "race".
Much like era's in other sports; you could easily argue that Ward is still the man. Technology and gear, popularity of the trail, better maintenance and routing, and even the simple fact that people cared even less then than they do now- leaving the motivation for such an attempt even more pure than those who pursue it today. Add that to the fact that Ward's record stood for 23 years and there is virtually zero argument that Mr. Leonard is the man and a great inspiration in that respect.

A trip to FKT will confirm that Ward's name still remains- and indeed Peter Bakwin and the entire community of folks go out of their way to acknowledge those who have come before them, and support those who eventually supplant their record. I'd like to think that Ward would congratulate Matt, much as Andrew Thompson reached out to congratulate Jen. And Matt stands ready to congratulate Joey should he pull it off.

Some obvious and flagrant violation of the spirit of these "records" is not tolerated, but (not that I am a member) this community seems little concerned with the minutia amongst themselves and support each other completely.

You have an argument, but as it seems of little importance to those who do this and there is nothing official or regulated in these friendly competitions against one's self, it seems little worth it to make it.

Sorry to dismiss your opinion out of hand, my apologies, your point is certainly valid. I'd rather celebrate the accomplishments and respect the achievements than debate a single theoretical misstep in a journey of five million.

[Sly]

Slo-go'en,

Going off of your definition, wouldn’t the record still be retained by Ward Leonard? During his hike Matt had purchase food from other hikers while on the trail. Up to that point of purchase, that food weight was carried by other hikers. So he was supported. Ward on the other hand, had to get off trail, go into town and purchase his own food. All this takes time.

Wolf

One problem is we don't know exactly how Ward's hike went down. He very well may have participated in hand outs and pot luck dinners, or got a ride in and out of town for that matter.

[Wolf - 23000]

One problem is we don't know exactly how Ward's hike went down. He very well may have participated in hand outs and pot luck dinners, or got a ride in and out of town for that matter.

Sly,

I've hiked with Ward for a couple of days. I was actually one of a SMALL number of hikers he respected. Ward did not take hand outs. Ward was not the type of hiker who was out there for the social portion of the trail. Without going into details, he would refuse taken an food from someone else.

As for the rides into towns the answer is yes. He did except rides into and out of towns like most hikers do.

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

Rather than debate the technicalities, I think what is interesting is the mutual respect. On a 2200 mile journey the little bits are less critical than on a shorter "race".
Much like era's in other sports; you could easily argue that Ward is still the man. Technology and gear, popularity of the trail, better maintenance and routing, and even the simple fact that people cared even less then than they do now- leaving the motivation for such an attempt even more pure than those who pursue it today. Add that to the fact that Ward's record stood for 23 years and there is virtually zero argument that Mr. Leonard is the man and a great inspiration in that respect.

A trip to FKT will confirm that Ward's name still remains- and indeed Peter Bakwin and the entire community of folks go out of their way to acknowledge those who have come before them, and support those who eventually supplant their record. I'd like to think that Ward would congratulate Matt, much as Andrew Thompson reached out to congratulate Jen. And Matt stands ready to congratulate Joey should he pull it off.

Some obvious and flagrant violation of the spirit of these "records" is not tolerated, but (not that I am a member) this community seems little concerned with the minutia amongst themselves and support each other completely.

You have an argument, but as it seems of little importance to those who do this and there is nothing official or regulated in these friendly competitions against one's self, it seems little worth it to make it.

Sorry to dismiss your opinion out of hand, my apologies, your point is certainly valid. I'd rather celebrate the accomplishments and respect the achievements than debate a single theoretical misstep in a journey of five million.

Just Bill,

I will start with the gear portion because I always get a good laugh when someone make it out that ultra-light gear was not around back in the 1990s. Back in the 1990, I for one had a base weight of under-5 pounds. Sure gear has gotten lighter sense then but if you know what you were doing, it was still fairly easy to travel ultra-light. Ward was carrying around 8 pounds when he did his speed-hike. Even by today standards, it is still fairly lightweight.

As for thinking Ward would congratulate Matt, I would be shocked. Ward knew that one day this record would be beaten, so he set up a serious of records that be believe would make it very difficult for any one hiker to beat them all.
I’m sure all of us will both agree, there are no really guidelines for how someone does their hike but I do believe in a fair playing field. Instead of trying to doing clever ways to save time/energy it would be interesting to compare them side by side to determine who is the better man (or woman if it should happen at a later date).

[Just Bill]

Wolf-
In 1990 I was in junior high, but being in scouts was fortunate enough to take "trips" with very minimal gear and baseweights in the range you mention. A space blanket (or light fleece), debris bed, plastic painters tarp, no stove, iodine pills, etc. However within the safety of the group, with only a short solo or two- otherwise it was traditional gear for me. I did note Ward's frame pack but could easily imagine a stripped down kit could be fashioned with proper skill. Not that I would claim any real experience at it in that era, my point being, I can understand your point well. The big difference that I see is that the elite level of skill required is no longer needed, and with a bit of ingenuity a full kit with all the bells and whistles can be had at those weights these days. From Nessmuk to Kephart traveling light is nothing new I suppose, just easier overall.

I'd be interested to hear some of those tricks from that era- little info really exists- Jardine being the only real available source from roughly that time. The materials change, but the skills and techniques are timeless, and often lost along the way.

I recall reading about Ward's succession of records, and greatly respect them. Despite the tales, I like to think the best of people, Ward included. Maybe it's fantasy on my part, but seems Ward's theory was entirely correct- it is highly unlikely any single person will match his efforts- it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that he might respect someone that beat one of them, grudgingly or not. But as you say- I am probably wrong on that account. On the other hand, you are not the first to say that there were a few that Ward got along with, and the common word I hear in those encounters is respect.

I agree fully on the comparisons, I find them compelling too. I'm as guilty as the next on the matter and somewhat regretfully recall how easily these threads devolve into debates on the process, with the actual result lost. I'm not confident in how well WB handles this, but it's not my job to jump down the throat of any who bring it up either. I feel badly that someone goes to such a massive effort in a largely rule free, highly personal endevour and gets monday morning quarterbacked over small issues. But again- not really my place to say and thank you for your kind reply.

[Chair-man]

I see where Joey has posted his mileage for the last 3 days (Tues 24th, Wed 25th & Thurs 26th) he has averaged 40 miles a day for this period.
One thing I did notice is that for both Sun & Mon he shows both being the 22nd when Mon was actually the 23rd of June.

[jeffmeh]

Just Bill,

Regarding the cumulative miles, you are correct that given the scale and the relatively steady pace, that the data is not particularly interesting from a rate of change perspective. What it does provide, however, is the overall length of the journey, which is certainly meaningful, more so for those not familiar with the trail.

Had Matt set his record NOBO, I would have put his cumulative miles/day line on the graph for comparison, but comparing day x NOBO vs. SOBO is not of much use. I do have Map Man's section averages in cumulative miles/day format, but for a pace this fast those averages are nowhere near as interesting as, say, the prior NOBO record. Alas, I don't have that data. What the Map Man line would show though, is that the shape of the record curve is roughly the same, just much higher (with the exception of the first week or so, as the actual line fluctuates a lot until enough miles have been accumulated to not affect the cumulative average - Map Man's data has already been smoothed by averaging the section). I did publish a few graph's of Matt's hike with the Map Man line.

All that said, there are many ways to graphically display data, and while there are certainly "wrong" ways to do it that obfuscate or "lie," there is still much room for subjectivity.

[Lone Wolf]

SOBO is easier. bottom line

[tdoczi]

One problem is we don't know exactly how Ward's hike went down. He very well may have participated in hand outs and pot luck dinners, or got a ride in and out of town for that matter.

ive been trying to point out this entirely obvious fact for years, especially given that at the time there was evidently no distinction between supported and unsupported records. its a loosing battle, the guy is just mythically above reproach, or even serious discussion, to too many people around here.

[Odd Man Out]

I updated my spreadsheet with today's updates.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7svq4goupry54z7/Camps.xlsx

Sheet 3 of the spreadsheet has this graph, showing his progress compared to a record pace. This is calculated on a linear pace so his generous cushion now is expected to decline when the terrain gets rougher.

Capture.JPG

[Lone Wolf]

ive been trying to point out this entirely obvious fact for years, especially given that at the time there was evidently no distinction between supported and unsupported records. its a loosing battle, the guy is just mythically above reproach, or even serious discussion, to too many people around here.

i knew ward intimately back then. he took no hand outs. he had no social skills. he was a hikin' machine.

[Wolf - 23000]

i knew ward intimately back then. he took no hand outs. he had no social skills. he was a hikin' machine.

Without a doubt! Ward truly was the man and even to this day, I believe could out hike anyone out there on a level playing field.

Wolf

[Odd Man Out]

More fun with numbers.

So I came up with a formula for estimating a record pace based on Map Man's data for hiking rates between various benchmarks along the trail. If you scale the rate of a record hiker to that of a typical hiker, you find that the record hiker must hike 2.55027 times faster than the typical hiker to set the record. If you use this scale factor to calculate the record hiker needs to hike every day of the record hike, you can get a scaled pace to compare Joey to. In the last graph I used the same miles per day for every day for the record pace (a linear pace). This scale factor gives a scaled pace to compare to. Here is the graph comparing the two types of analysis.

Capture.JPG

[Odd Man Out]

Just saw he posted this question on his blog. Maybe someone here has some useful info and could reply to his blog:

I need your help guysI was wondering if anyone could tell me what the concessions on top of Mount Washington are like?
And also I will need to resupply once before Carotauk Maine, I was going to head into ine of these towns, was wondering if anyone had any recommendations?


Andover (8E)
Rangeley (9w)
Stratton (5w)



http://joeycamps.blogspot.com/2014/0...ng-advice.html

[jeffmeh]

Neat. I'm going to steal that idea and add a scaled up Map Man pace.

[map man]

I've been following Joey's blog for a while now. He's been pushing himself awfully hard. The night he spends in Boiling Springs he describes watching a Rangers game at a B&B and says, "after awhile I couldn't remember why I was in a hotel or where." Then a couple days later his right foot is hurting so bad it makes him vomit. I've gone from following his progress and wondering if he might make his speed goal to simply hoping he gets through the experience without doing permanent damage to himself.

Maybe I worry too much.

[Odd Man Out]

I've been following Joey's blog for a while now. He's been pushing himself awfully hard. The night he spends in Boiling Springs he describes watching a Rangers game at a B&B and says, "after awhile I couldn't remember why I was in a hotel or where." Then a couple days later his right foot is hurting so bad it makes him vomit. I've gone from following his progress and wondering if he might make his speed goal to simply hoping he gets through the experience without doing permanent damage to himself.

Maybe I worry too much.

That would be around days 28-30. On the graph you see that period showed his most serious setback. Even with that, he stayed on pace. Or we could blame it on the Doyle - sort of "The House or the Rising Sun" for thru hikers?

[lemon b]

Ward In believe would say congrats to the best of his ability. One does not do what he did without having some stand up manhood somewhere within his soul.

[jeffmeh]

OK, here is my chart with the data through 6/26. I have taken Map Man's NOBO averages by section, scaled them up to record pace, and interpolated the data between the waypoints to smooth out the curve. By my calculations, Map Man's NOBO average for the entire trip is 12.9 miles per day, Matt's record is 37.4 miles per day, so the scaling factor is around 2.9. I have run the Map Man Scaled Cumulative Miles/Day line through Kent, CT, as per the data Joey is not yet to Glencliff, NH, the next waypoint. Note that by Kent, CT the scaled Map Man average has met the linear target line at 37.4. Also, except for the beginning of the trip, where the cumulative miles denominator is small enough that daily variation moves the average quite a bit, Joey's relative pace is shaped very similarly to Map Man's averages.

[jeffmeh]

OK, here is my chart with the data through 6/26. I have taken Map Man's NOBO averages by section, scaled them up to record pace, and interpolated the data between the waypoints to smooth out the curve. By my calculations, Map Man's NOBO average for the entire trip is 12.9 miles per day, Matt's record is 37.4 miles per day, so the scaling factor is around 2.9. I have run the Map Man Scaled Cumulative Miles/Day line through Kent, CT, as per the data Joey is not yet to Glencliff, NH, the next waypoint. Note that by Kent, CT the scaled Map Man average has met the linear target line at 37.4. Also, except for the beginning of the trip, where the cumulative miles denominator is small enough that daily variation moves the average quite a bit, Joey's relative pace is shaped very similarly to Map Man's averages.

Sorry, that would be "the cumulative days denominator is small enough...."