UL FOOD (hiker Chow)

[NomadVenture]

Would Like to know other UL Hikers experience with different meal replacement options such as Powdered meals. If it get's me more miles with a lighter weight, then i'd stomach eating/drinking the same stuff everyday(like pet-food for hikers). There are other thing I realize that might make it actually not be the best UL hiker option, Issue with weight and that is the extra water you need to carry to fill your meal if using powders (even the powdered peanut butters)... Or what has been you other preferences for UL Food options ?? (lighter, faster, easy down, and virtually no cleanup or trash left over) Bonus points if mice and bears wont find it attractive...

If it's just a powdered meal replacement then shipping and mailing a post drop-box ahead would be a breeze no doubt... despite the idea of eating it everyday, always have the option of stopping in town to eat...my current powdered meal preference is RAW Meal plus the bulk value of using it would make each meal less than $20 a day so go out and hike a 30, and your at less than $1 per mile.


Some of my experience starts out with my First 1000 mile section hike (fall sobo 2012) I was considering high calorie density with all my food and had around 140 Calories/oz. Sad thing is I calculated my miles expected and number of calories i'd be burning, I used a variety of Calculators some hikers posted online. I wound up Never really eating much, almost as if my hunger went away while I was hiking. I've heard it's not to uncommon. But i also made some mistakes that resulted in me carrying steel cut oats for the first 100 miles... Never again! plus i didn't eat many of my probars either as solid food just lost it's appeal. I did send somethings home and gave plenty to some hiker boxes, and covering over to UL Hiking

Stove:
While I did pack a stove and tried being ultralight i had a Esbit/alcohol jet stove. I'm never packing Esbits again (the burn time and control is rather hard to maintain and putting them out when done) and I switched to a canister stove later on For my hike. And Now i don't consider stoves unless i'm hiking during the winter. (I biked through Shenandoah Park and froze my ass off in my tent stealth camping in January) My water containers started freezing the first hour being on the range. But for the warm weather if find the stove pointless if doing UL

During my Hike I enjoyed many different foods and pasta sides and goodies, but sometimes involved heavy cleanup. Always preferred the no cook dinner options, and so later during my bike ride i used meal replacement powders, tail mixes, fewer probars tea(for caffeine), Plain peanut-butter/mixed with coconut oil, Despite it being biking for hiking the level of activity is still the same level of hunger.

[zelph]

Stove:
While I did pack a stove and tried being ultralight i had a Esbit/alcohol jet stove. I'm never packing Esbits again (the burn time and control is rather hard to maintain and putting them out when done) and I switched to a canister stove later on For my hike. And Now i don't consider stoves unless i'm hiking during the winter. (I biked through Shenandoah Park and froze my ass off in my tent stealth camping in January) My water containers started freezing the first hour being on the range. But for the warm weather if find the stove pointless if doing UL

Plain peanut-butter/mixed with coconut oil, Despite it being biking for hiking the level of activity is still the same level of hunger.

Very interesting!

[Venchka]

I can eat real food for a lot less than $20/day. Given the long weekend trip junk food store resupply schedule on the AT, one has to wonder why anyone carries more than a handful of trail bars (Lara & T.J.'s for me) and a bag of peanut M&Ms. Or a dozen Snickers.
Trader Joe's is a cornucopia of trail food. The freeze-dried fruit selection is huge and the prices are about 1/4 of outfitter prices.
Bon appetite.

Wayne
Ps: I fell for the powdered PB. What a scam! They took out all the fat.


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[Dogwood]

I assume the primary goal is to lower your trail food wt(and food volume) while happily completing a long hike. A long hike being defined as 1000+ miles. Keeping that always in mind, I've found there are other ways to accomplish that without having to eat the same powdered meals/powdered meal replacement food like substances exclusively or everyday. For a trail like the AT, doing a non winter hike, I find lowering my trail food wt quite easy to accomplish if I average 25+ miles per day resupplying every 3-4 days. Trail food wt dilemma solved especially if I'm already doing other things to lighten up my trail food wt(repackaging, upping/opting for nutrient dense high overall cal/oz average compact(low volume)trail food, etc). I know there are those who have taken the approach of trail food by doing exclusively powdered meal replacements. I tried it several times. I don't like it! I don't do it on long hikes or when I have opps to resupply every 8 days or less which I often do because my MPD avg is where it's at and the character of the types of hikes I typically do. I've personally found it pretty damn tastefully boring and nutritionally highly questionable(remembering there's more than total daily caloric intake, cals/oz, and protein/carb/fat %'s of totally daily caloric intake) on a long hike. Here's another question. If you can lower the wt of your trail food by substituting with a powdered meal replacement like Raw Meal FOR SOME OF YOUR MEALS why isn't that enough of wt saved? WHY do ALL your meals have to be a RAW MEAL replacement? Get what I'm asking? YES, I have taken Garden of Eaten Raw Meal to the trail but I will not do a powdered meal replacement exclusively. Personally, drinking what amounts to a Smoothie for dinner everyday on the trail gets real boring to me. I guess I wasn't meant to be an astronaut squeezing all my food out of a tube either. I want real WHOLE food as often as I can get it as an ULer. Personally I like adding the Raw Meal to QUICK Cook Oatmeal on cold weather and shoulder season hikes with added hemp seed, flax seed, chia seed, dried coconut flake/powdered coconut milk, powdered vanilla soy milk, dried mango, dried berries, sliced almonds, walnuts, etc. BTW, I'm with Venchka, I too can eat real food for a lot less than $20/day with my overall trail food wt STILL being light/UL wt.

[NomadVenture]

I'm considering it for an overall Ul hike food strategy if I plan on the triple crown so AT yeah it's easy to resupply with other options or eat fresh foods now and then, the $20 was an over estimate as the reality is each meal is about >$2 when portioned for a normal day at home, maybe more if portioned for hiking, maybe $4 each meal Max. But snacking/sipping throughout the day as i'm not a meal guy when i get so active, (also a great option for vegan hikers to use the RAW Meal)

I definitely would need to increase some of the fats, normally coconut oil is a favorite since shelf stable but dislike cool weather when it solidifies so i buy the peanut butter brand earth balance with the coconut oil added. I skipped the powder idea because of prep and cleanup during my winter bike tour...

[Venchka]

Thanks Dogwood. Sometimes I feel like a lone voice in the wilderness.
BTW, I too am a slave to CAD. It does support my habits. One of these days it will support my renewed interest in self-propelled travel.

Wayne


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[WingedMonkey]

If it get's me more miles with a lighter weight, then i'd stomach eating/drinking the same stuff everyday(like pet-food for hikers).

I've lost the link, but a search might find it. There was a young man that tried to see how long he could go (not hiking) on Monkey Chow.

I do remember that Purina posted to his blog warning him they owned the name "Monkey Chow" and he had to refer to it after that as "primate meal" or something.

Something about too much fiber and he didn't stick to it.

I've always wondered when someone would really come up with a same meal all the time hiker chow, like we feed our pets. Maybe a cereal company?

[NomadVenture]

During my hike i would always add in coconut oil and hemp protein powder to the different goulash and schlopps we cooked tossing in stuff (had to rely on my hiker boxes for these type of items). being my first long distance hike it was a learning experience and some had it down to science but everyone's body's different so it involves many test runs to perfect a meal plan that you can stick to for the whole hike with no wast or excess.

I know how easy it is to resupply on the AT with the shops and stores, and my goal would be to max out my miles (for record setting) so town visits would be supper minimal. Also being vegan there does come limitations for resupply options, but i have only done two months with the Raw meal replacements on my bike ride earlier during the winter and only used when i wasn't in/around a town i could find some thing to eat. I know being a Vegan hiker sounds F'd up XP but i'm thinking it should be possible, there are a variety of things i can to to the powders to change things up, and fresh fruits/veggies to get in town. (but hopefully i could discipline myself for eating the same sludge mix every day as an effective system and may have some benefits if hiking in bear country on the CDT (dont know if a bear would eat the meal replacement powder)

[Venchka]

About a hundred years ago I remember researching long chain polymers as an additive to food for bike touring. Is Maltodextrin what I was thinking of then? How is it used? What are the good the bad and the ugly of using something like this as a low bulk calorie boosting powder?

Wayne


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[RockDoc]

I met a young man in VA who was definitely UL. All he had for food was trail bars, and his first and only question for us was "What are the hours at the all-you-can-eat Pizza Hut in Daleville?"
It's called starve and gorge. There's more of this going on on the AT than you might think.

[Odd Man Out]

About a hundred years ago I remember researching long chain polymers as an additive to food for bike touring. Is Maltodextrin what I was thinking of then? How is it used? What are the good the bad and the ugly of using something like this as a low bulk calorie boosting powder?...

Maltodextrin is not a long chain polymer. Starch is a long chain polymer of glucose. Maltodextrin is partially broken down starch (i.e. a short chain polymer). Completely broken down starch is glucose. None are really "calorie boosters", per se. All dry carbohydrates will have about the same number of calories per gram, which will be about the same as dry protein. Fats will have a bit more than twice the calories per gram. So if you want a calorie booster, add fat. In terms of calorie content, it would not matter if it is olive, canola, corn, peanut, or coconut oil. BTW, the reference above about coconut oil being shelf stable is a little confusing as all oils are really shelf stable. It solidifies at cold temperatures because it is more saturated (like palm oil). The other vegetable oils are more unsaturated.

You could think of it this way. Most of what is in your food bag is either fat, carbs, protein, water, or packaging. The latter two have no calories and lower calorie density. Fats have the most and will increase calorie density. It is not possible to have more calories per gram than a bottle of vegetable oil. Anything else you have will lower your calorie density. If you want an estimate of the grams of water in your food, go to the nutrition label. Start with the serving size in grams. Subtract the grams of fat, protein, and carbs per serving. What's left is the water (mostly).

I personally want to have all three macro nutrients (fats, carbs, protein) in my diet. Fats give you energy and have the highest calorie density, so don't skimp on these. Carbs are necessary to maintain blood sugar. If you don't eat them, your body has to make them from protein which is not very efficient. Protein is probably not as important as most people think. Much of the protein you eat will be burned up anyway and your body is better at burning fats and carbs. Put these three together (with more fat and less of the others) with almost no water and minimal packaging and you would have the perfect hiking food. This is pretty much a perfect description of peanut butter.

[garlic08]

I've done several long UL hikes and have never packed a bar or powder of any kind. A mainstay in my diet is muesli I make with rolled oats, nuts, and dried fruit. Since rolled oats are parboiled in processing, there's no need to cook. I can buy the ingredients at any small grocery store in the country. No added sugar, and the only fat is from tree nuts, which I believe is pretty good stuff. That's what I consider my hiker chow.

(When I read the labels on processed food, I cringe. And I recently read "Salt Sugar Fat" by Michael Moss, which made me happy I never got hooked on the stuff.)

Years ago I met one hiker who ate only that on his Triple Crown hikes. I tried it for several hundred miles but found I need more variety. So I supplement that with tortillas and other fatty breads and crackers, cheese, more nuts and nut butters, more dried fruit.

My trail food cost on the AT, with no mail drops, was about $7/day. My town food diet was about that much too (I ate very well in AT trail towns), so my average cost to eat on the AT was pretty close to $15/day. On other more remote trails, I spend far less than that. On a recent cross-US bicycle tour, I spent about $12/day, which also included lots of restaurant meals.

[NomadVenture]

So to ask fundamentally, despite preferences due to any factors on taste and texture, would a nutritionally balanced powdered meal replacement for hikers be considered one of the best methods at being ultralight if you only packed what you needed for the days you were hiking ?

I know that shorter hikes it's doable to carry bulkier and heavier food and still be light enough to pack long miles but by definition of ultralight wouldn't a powdered meal replacement be at the top of the list?

Considering the other factors such as packing extra water for food consumption would that really add on a bunch of excess weight? or would that just be over hype especially since it'd depend on the trail and water sources. But guess it could vary and add on extra miles for water runs for your food. Thought's on this if you did happen to decide to go this route regardless of preferences?

[Venchka]

Maltodextrin is not a long chain polymer. Starch is a long chain polymer of glucose. Maltodextrin is partially broken down starch (i.e. a short chain polymer). Completely broken down starch is glucose. None are really "calorie boosters", per se. All dry carbohydrates will have about the same number of calories per gram, which will be about the same as dry protein. Fats will have a bit more than twice the calories per gram. So if you want a calorie booster, add fat. In terms of calorie content, it would not matter if it is olive, canola, corn, peanut, or coconut oil. BTW, the reference above about coconut oil being shelf stable is a little confusing as all oils are really shelf stable. It solidifies at cold temperatures because it is more saturated (like palm oil). The other vegetable oils are more unsaturated.

You could think of it this way. Most of what is in your food bag is either fat, carbs, protein, water, or packaging. The latter two have no calories and lower calorie density. Fats have the most and will increase calorie density. It is not possible to have more calories per gram than a bottle of vegetable oil. Anything else you have will lower your calorie density. If you want an estimate of the grams of water in your food, go to the nutrition label. Start with the serving size in grams. Subtract the grams of fat, protein, and carbs per serving. What's left is the water (mostly).

I personally want to have all three macro nutrients (fats, carbs, protein) in my diet. Fats give you energy and have the highest calorie density, so don't skimp on these. Carbs are necessary to maintain blood sugar. If you don't eat them, your body has to make them from protein which is not very efficient. Protein is probably not as important as most people think. Much of the protein you eat will be burned up anyway and your body is better at burning fats and carbs. Put these three together (with more fat and less of the others) with almost no water and minimal packaging and you would have the perfect hiking food. This is pretty much a perfect description of peanut butter.

1. I was thinking "low bulk, space friendly calorie addition" when I wrote calorie booster. Like something to add to oatmeal, grits, etc.
2. Shame on me for using a product marketing hype web page as a source. I also didn't read far enough: "maltodextrin has a high-glycemic index". Danger! Warning! "Be afraid. Be very afraid!"

Maltodextrin:
The predominate ingredient in Mike’s Mix Recovery Drink is maltodextrin, which is isolated from corn and is considered a complex carbohydrate. It is a common component of many foods and is considered safe and easily digestible. Maltodextrin is also a glucose polymer (many molecules of glucose linked together forming long chains). Numerous research studies demonstrate that glucose polymers are optimal in a glycogen replenishment formula post-workout. 10. Although a complex carbohydrate, maltodextrin has a high-glycemic index, which means it is converted to blood glucose quickly. The speed at which glucose can be available to the muscles for glycogen synthesis is vital. The enzyme that is responsible for synthesizing glycogen (glycogen synthase) is relatively inactive most of the time. However, there is a short time period immediately after exercise where conditions are favorable and glycogen synthase becomes extremely active. 11. An athlete must provide a sufficient amount of these high-glycemic index carbohydrates to replenish glycogen effectively. 12. Maltodextrin accomplishes this as well or better than any other food.

I will stick to prepared foods with ingredients that I recognize and can pronounce. The shorter the list the better.
Like these almond bars from Trader Joe's
http://www.traderjoes.com/fearless-f...rticle_id=1751

Wayne

[garlic08]

So to ask fundamentally, despite preferences due to any factors on taste and texture, would a nutritionally balanced powdered meal replacement for hikers be considered one of the best methods at being ultralight if you only packed what you needed for the days you were hiking ?

What do you consider "nutritionally balanced?" Do you trust scientists and technicians in factories, and government regulations (possibly influenced by industry lobbying?) to balance your diet? When I look at what the past fifty years of food processing has done to our collective health, I'm not so sure I'll trust that system. (When I was in elementary school in the early 1960s, we'd never even heard of diabetes and we teased the one poor kid who was a little chubby.)

Your phrase about carrying only what you need is a loaded one. Most hikers overpack on food. I consider it fine planning to come into town just a little hungry, having consumed the last of the food at breakfast that morning. That last day with no food and usually no water in the pack is a real joy. You have to face the fear of being hungry, though, and that's a hard one for many.

...Considering the other factors such as packing extra water for food consumption would that really add on a bunch of excess weight? or would that just be over hype especially since it'd depend on the trail and water sources. But guess it could vary and add on extra miles for water runs for your food. Thought's on this if you did happen to decide to go this route regardless of preferences?

Not sure I follow the thought here, but I usually eat at water sources and carry minimal water between them. Again, water management is a big factor in UL hiking. A one liter bottle of water is the heaviest thing in my pack, including the pack, so I carry as little of it as possible. Again, you have to face the fear of being thirsty. But in a typical spring start on the AT, there are excellent springs sometimes every few miles and there were days I didn't carry any water at all. And a lighter pack allows you to hike farther with less food and water, which allows you to carry less food and water, in a kind of spiraling effect.

[NomadVenture]

What do you consider "nutritionally balanced?" Do you trust scientists and technicians in factories, and government regulations (possibly influenced by industry lobbying?) to balance your diet? When I look at what the past fifty years of food processing has done to our collective health, I'm not so sure I'll trust that system.
.

It wasn't about a system(or any daily value gov regulated chart out there) but I would call it "ideally balanced" for a hiker and their need (considering making my own combination of such for my own hikes).

My phrase about only carrying what you need is all hypothetical conditions for the point of camparison, not actual, but just a middle line. Of course I'd eat in town when conveniently possible, though in consideration to be as ultralight and time efficient for speed hiking there would be factors of time spent off trail grabbing food and deciding if it is more optimal to carry the slight larger food quantity of food and keep packing miles or pack less so as to be lighter and make more miles and you trade that out for the time spend of trail...?

For the water bit: I know when it comes to other trails besides the AT you will be forced to carry more between resupply points, and so that led me to the question of water depending on how far away refill points are if you just down the meal or take it on the go so you'd be carrying the water that would mix your meal as well as the water your drinking normally.

[rocketsocks]

I've done several long UL hikes and have never packed a bar or powder of any kind. A mainstay in my diet is muesli I make with rolled oats, nuts, and dried fruit. Since rolled oats are parboiled in processing, there's no need to cook. I can buy the ingredients at any small grocery store in the country. No added sugar, and the only fat is from tree nuts, which I believe is pretty good stuff. That's what I consider my hiker chow.

(When I read the labels on processed food, I cringe. And I recently read "Salt Sugar Fat" by Michael Moss, which made me happy I never got hooked on the stuff.)

Years ago I met one hiker who ate only that on his Triple Crown hikes. I tried it for several hundred miles but found I need more variety. So I supplement that with tortillas and other fatty breads and crackers, cheese, more nuts and nut butters, more dried fruit.

My trail food cost on the AT, with no mail drops, was about $7/day. My town food diet was about that much too (I ate very well in AT trail towns), so my average cost to eat on the AT was pretty close to $15/day. On other more remote trails, I spend far less than that. On a recent cross-US bicycle tour, I spent about $12/day, which also included lots of restaurant meals.

Developed around 1900 by Swiss physician Maximilian Bircher-Benner for patients in his hospital

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muesli

[rocketsocks]

Shoot, lost my editing privileges...meant to say, found this interesting.

[Dogwood]

WOW, you are bringing a lot of detailed sometimes quite deep considerations into play all of a sudden. Sounds like you are getting ahead of yourself. Consider taking on one long distance speed/record setting hike at a time. This way some of the answers to your questions will get clearer and be more personally focused as you perfect your hiking style like your water wt logistics, personal nutrition, etc. You mentioned Triple Crowning, maxing out your miles(for record setting), Veganism, minimal town stops, ultralight hiking, trail food costs, etc on top of trail nutrition of which you are considering exclusively(?) substituting with powdered food on trail. I see some of those goals as possibly contradictory none the less challenging. I too don't buy into this idea of "ideally balanced." That sounds like a marketing term or something derived from modern Nutritional Science models that theorize food is simply a chemical concoction of the known components. I would like to know WHAT YOU DEFINE as an IDEALLY BALANCED ON TRAIL DIET and how you've arrived at it? I've met quite a few Vegans and a few that have thru-hiked and a few trail speed record setters but no Vegan I've known adheres to a completely exclusive Vegan powdered meal trail diet on or off the trail or for a long distance TC trail thru-hike much less a speed/record setting TC thru- hike. You would be the first I know attempting this. I'm a UL long distance hiker who has completed the TC largely as a pesce vegetarian but my hiking style isn't the same as you anticipate yours to be. I'm not trying to set any records. I would also like to know: 1) the rest of your UL kit, could you post a gear list?, it may be that you could lose wt in other areas of your kit instead of limiting yourself to an all powdered meal on trail hiking diet?, 2) and what's the longest continuous hike you have completed? if you have done a long distance hike can you describe the hiking style and particulars of that hike(diet, avg MPD, what trail/route?, wt carried, typical ebergy levels, etc

[Damn Yankee]

If you want to know what to take on an UL(record attempt) why not contact Jennifer Pharr Davis? She currently holds the unofficial record for the fastest thru hike of the Appalachian Trail with a time of 46 days, 11 hours, and 20 min. and could give you some great food options, I'm sure.