Hoka's

[rocketsocks]

LOL- as a righty, I most all my fastners in my left tool belt. Noticed walking around the last few days that the right foot splay was quite bad as a result.
Might just be the diagnosis right there if you notice the same pattern. Sparky tends to have a balanced tool belt, but fitters and wood butchers rarely do.

freakin' premadonnas LOL. Yeah, I'm always carryin' a bucket a fittings or what not (though not anymore...whoo hoo, tools are for fools) on one side, and my skinny narrow butt thrown out to the other side...and my back dosen't get the joke and reminds me of it often.

[Just Bill]

Any opinions on whether the Hoka's or any zero drop shoe might help with IT Band Syndrome?

Generally- Correcting your form, lightening your load, and wearing good shoes solve many problems for many folks.
Specifically- talk to a Physical Therapist and a really good shoe salesman, likely they will do more for you than a doc.

[The Solemates]

Hoka Shoe's?
zero's
Altra's
latest gen Altra's
Altra's

New Torin's

Hoka's what?
Altra's what?
Torin's what?

If you told me what possession this Hoka (or Altra, or Torin) fella has that I should try, I might be able to answer the question.

[Just Bill]

Are you going Richard Grammar on me?

I hear the fella's in question own's several pair's of shoe's that came up in discussion's on the topic's your quote's above included.

Unfortunately, I am terminally unclear as to who possesses the knowledge.

I would still spell ghrammer like this, or grammhar like that, if spell check didn't stop me. I suck, sorry.
I know it's like nails on a chalkboard, but after too many years around power tools I'm deef.

[nastynate]

New Torin's the same or better? Got the new instinct 2.0 and they are more like a pair of Van's now with all the extra padding in the upper compared to the first version.
800-1000 miles is impressive! Specially at the $$$ you gotta pay to burn through these guys every 300-500 miles.

They seem the same to me. I think they all have too much upper. I used to run the Saucony Kinvaras. Went through 4 pairs in 1000 miles. I absolutely loved the upper. Very minimal, super quick drying, comfortable without socks. But I would destroy the midsole in 2-3 months. I couldn't afford them anymore! Wish I could get that upper material on the Torin outer. I love the cushion on the Torin, but my feet start to get sore after about 12 miles on the asphalt.

[burger]

I tried on one pair of Hokas in a store (can't recall which). It was the most comfortable experience my feet have ever had--like walking on little clouds. I run in cushioned shoes (Nike Pegasus), but these were like cushioned to the power of 10. If I do another long hike on a trail that isn't all rocks and roots (something like the PCT or AZT), I would definitely get some Hokas.

As for running, I found them a little unstable when I was jogging around the store. But Dogwood's post above makes me suspect that maybe I should give them a chance. I ran into a hiker/distance runner on the CDT last year who swears by Hokas and said that I would never go back if I started using them. I might have to take the plunge.

[Just Bill]

They seem the same to me. I think they all have too much upper. I used to run the Saucony Kinvaras. Went through 4 pairs in 1000 miles. I absolutely loved the upper. Very minimal, super quick drying, comfortable without socks. But I would destroy the midsole in 2-3 months. I couldn't afford them anymore! Wish I could get that upper material on the Torin outer. I love the cushion on the Torin, but my feet start to get sore after about 12 miles on the asphalt.

Sadly you are right- the biggest complaint about the Altra's is the low dry times. It doesn't seem to be a problem they plan to address.
I need a new pair of Torin's as my pair is shot but didn't want to try the new ones. Seems all the 1.5 upgrades have gone well, all the 2.0 upgrades have been downgrades IMO.
Torin and Lone Peak have been the perfect shoe for me- I was in New balance and Merrell minimalist shoes and had the same problem as you when the mileage piled up with those.
Seeking the minimalist shoes with the cush led me to the Altra's, but the uppers seem to be moving in the wrong direction for backpacking at least.

The Hoka's seem more in line with something like the Olympus to me. Altra has lighter/lower cush overall- but otherwise look quite comparable with the exception of the minor heel drop.

[Just Bill]

I tried on one pair of Hokas in a store (can't recall which). It was the most comfortable experience my feet have ever had--like walking on little clouds. I run in cushioned shoes (Nike Pegasus), but these were like cushioned to the power of 10. If I do another long hike on a trail that isn't all rocks and roots (something like the PCT or AZT), I would definitely get some Hokas.

As for running, I found them a little unstable when I was jogging around the store. But Dogwood's post above makes me suspect that maybe I should give them a chance. I ran into a hiker/distance runner on the CDT last year who swears by Hokas and said that I would never go back if I started using them. I might have to take the plunge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P88dMsvnZs

With this and the thicker Hoka's- I'm with you I think- too much cush feels sloppy to me and you loose the ground feel. I can't imagine them not being comfortable, but at some point it gets silly. OTH- train in low cush and switch to these high cush models and you'd feel like you were flying.

I've read from a few sources that you just learn to hit harder when you have the cush, a statement I'd mostly agree with.
It is nice to have that "race day" shoe as the runners say though...

[The Solemates]

Are you going Richard Grammar on me?

I hear the fella's in question own's several pair's of shoe's that came up in discussion's on the topic's your quote's above included.

Unfortunately, I am terminally unclear as to who possesses the knowledge.

I would still spell ghrammer like this, or grammhar like that, if spell check didn't stop me. I suck, sorry.
I know it's like nails on a chalkboard, but after too many years around power tools I'm deef.

now that had me laughin out loud!

[Kaptain Kangaroo]

Recently bought a pair of Altra Olympus.... they are great,an excellent fit & extremely comfortable to run and walk in ! Tried some Hoka's (Rapa Nui II) but they were just to narrow in the toe box. The Altra's are actually the shape of a foot. I never quite realised before how silly it seems that shoes are not the same shape as the foot that goes inside them...how did that ever happen ?????

I have done a few ultra's before as a walker (in my trusty Merrell Moab Ventilators) but have been inspired to actually run some of the next event & the Altra's are making running a pleasure, something I have never really enjoyed too much previously. (plus the move to a more forefoot strike style)

[Dogwood]

Question? For Altra Olympus users do any of you use them(zero drop) straight out of the box with no after market orthotics(additional money for me with a high arch) who have a high/med arch? As this runner reviewer, comparing the Altra Olympus and Hoka points out at 3:30 mins into the review, I have a high arch and have a hard time with the Altra Olympus straight out of the box unless I add in arch support which I don't necessarily have to do with the three models of Hokas I've demoed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZX818VvZFM

....With this and the thicker Hoka's- I'm with you I think- too much cush feels sloppy to me and you loose the ground feel. I can't imagine them not being comfortable, but at some point it gets silly. OTH- train in low cush and switch to these high cush models and you'd feel like you were flying.

I've read from a few sources that you just learn to hit harder when you have the cush, a statement I'd mostly agree with.
It is nice to have that "race day" shoe as the runners say though...

Both the Hokas and the Altras have a rather large and wide sole area that contacts the ground compared to many other types of road/trail running shoes. This is one reason why I thought I MIGHT get decent traction on trails even with the Biondi II's which aren't listed as designed for trail running. Look at their sole profiles.
http://www.hokaoneone.com/mens-trail.../30109035.html
http://www.altrarunning.com/fitness/...es/olympus-men
While it certainly was, at least for me, a rather untypical initial feeling I got used to this type of running shoe design with the Hokas. I get excellent contact with the ground but it's more spread out over a larger area and certainly with a supremely cushy feel. I strongly suspect the same with the Altra Olympus. The toe box on the Altra Olympus is ideal for my extremely wide forefoot but other design characeristics don't work for me. I will never road run distances in minimalist style shoes again.

I have heard of those with ITB pain getting relief with Hokas. My only comment is, that hopefully, those with ITB issues get to addressing the causes and not merely addressing symptoms(pain).

BTW JB I asked about HOKAs about a yr ago and no one here new about them.

[nastynate]

I have a very high arch and haven't needed orthotics in my altras. But I started off very slowly. I do wear powerstep insoles in my work boots (60 hours a week on my feet in steel toed boots is brutal).

[Kaptain Kangaroo]

I have a med. arch & I use the Olympus straight out of the box. I run with a very pronounced forefoot strike, so I'm not sure that arch support in the shoe is really going to do anything for me anyway.

I don't necessarily agree with the "you just learn to hit harder in cush. shoes" idea... ...I think it depends a lot on your style. Again, I run with a pronounced forefoot strike and short stride length. I don't think I could strike harder without going back to a heel strike, or by overstriding.....

Lots of discussion of this on runners forums, especially those for ultra events !

[Dogwood]

I gotcha KK. That's not me though. I'm trying to understand what makes Altras work for some people.

Nate, what do you mean by, "I have a very high arch and haven't needed orthotics in my altras.But I started off very slowly."

[Kaptain Kangaroo]

No worries Dogwood !! FWIW I took Nate's comment about starting slowly as meaning his transition to a low/zero drop shoe and/or to a mid/forefoot strike
to allow his feet & calves to get conditioned. If so , +1000 from me ! I made the changes very slowly over many months & everything adapted really well, with not even a hint of injury or pain.

[Dogwood]

That's what I thought he meant.

[Just Bill]

Yar- Check out Altra and Merrell's websites- several tutorials and videos on how to make the switch. Altra's actually come with a "How-to" printed on the lid of the box.
Like any activity, slow and steady to start will do it. I'm lucky enough that even when in the field I can wear whatever footwear I want, so simply wearing minimalist shoes in daily life was all I needed.
Not that I'm a runner by any means, but when I did truly switch, I kept my jogging low (1-3 miles) for a few weeks and slowly ramped up to 10-15.
You'll feel it in your calves, but I think most hikers have already done the footwork to avoid much of the spread and growing pain in the forefoot that others find common.

From Hokas- you're only going from a 5-7mm drop to a zero with the Altra, so it's not a huge shock either.

The biggest difference I can see is the Metarocker design in the Hokas. That would either take getting used to, or take getting over depending on which switch you're making. Although it appears that the Olympus has a bit of that geometry built into the toe. I think as others have mentioned the increased stack weirdness would evaporate after a few hikes.
If you really like the Metarocker style consider trying a pair of Newton's. I wouldn't hike in them, but they are pretty fun to jog in if you are a forefoot striker.

I'm only interested in these for backpacking personally, although I may have to get into running this year whether I like it or not. So while the Ultrarunner tips are worthy of consideration, they don't always apply which is why the opinions here mean more to me.

MAX CUSH-
I do pay attention to Ultrarunners, relevant to this thread is the practice of rotating shoes in training. To that end I do have a decent collection of full blown minimalist shoes (NB 00, Merrell trail glove and bare access) mid range shoes (Altra instinct, Newton) and high cush (or high mileage as the UR say) shoes like the Lone Peak and Torin. I also follow my own advice, walking barefoot a few times a week on the sidewalk and wearing minimalist shoes with little or no cush in daily life to train my feet.

I certainly notice the benefits (mainly foot, ankle, and supporting muscle strength) of going minimalist and learning to step lightly. I think the low or no cush shoes are a big help. But like UR, I find that my mileage is limited with the low cush. I max out around 15 mpd with the low stuff, mid twenties with the middle, and 35-40 in the lone peak or torin. So a Hoka or olympus would be my max distance type shoe. Although I note, much to my chagrin, Matt Kirk rocked his record in very low cush minimalist shoes; and if the proof is in the pudding, then adding cush simply means I haven't trained my feet or learned the lessons of stepping lightly well enough. From the Tarahumara to the Native American Scout- the magic is in the feet not in the shoe.

But that said, few of us are Matt Kirk, and if all it takes is adding a max cush shoe to the rotation or when it's go time on the trail, then it's worth it.

[Energizer Bunny]

I bought Hokas when I took up running last year and have started hiking in them since. I love them. My feet don't hurt, no blisters, and way more forgiving on my feet after a long mileaged day than my Keens. I'm definitely going to get another pair when these are wore out

[FlyFishNut]

I bought the Hoka's for days when the trails are too sloppy to run and I'm forced to run on road/sidewalk. The hard surfaces were making my knees/joints hurt (which doesn't happen on trail). I have to admit the Hokas are super comfy.

I just bought a pair of Altra Lone Peaks and for some reason I find myself tripping on the trail a lot!?!? Typically I run in Pure Grits, Kinvasas or Cascadias and don't 'toe trip' but those damn Altra's are driving me nuts - I want to like them.

As far as trail running in the Hokas - their trail shoe seems like you are sitting high and you would be prone to roll your ankle, but your foot actually sits lower in the shoe that it looks. I tried them on and would love to get a pair, but I have to wear out some of these other shoes before I splurge again. Maybe if I find on sale somewhere.

[MuddyWaters]

Well, Karl meltzer wears hokas, but then again he's paid to. I was told by someone in the inner elite ultra running circle he fell down some at first with them. Want to know how important shoe choice is? The most elite ultra runners usually wear what they can get for free. Then again, they live the dirt bag lifestyle.