Which Sole Material Has the Best Traction?

[Sarcasm the elf]

I recently purchased a pair of Vivobarefoot shoes for hiking. The soles are very flexible, which I thought would be great for traction while hiking. I tried them out on the AT Sugarloaf MT area and found that after hiking 5 miles the bottoms of my feet were killing me from being over flexed. It seems that I solved one problem and created another by not having enough stiffness in the sole.

Generally speaking, it takes a long time to condition your body to get used to walking without the artificial support of modern shoes. If you switch over to a barefoot shoe or barefoot running, it can take weeks or months for all of the underused stabilizer muscles in your feet and legs to strenghten up properly. I use and love the merril barefoot shoes, but it took a long time before I was able to proficiently run in them.

[RED-DOG]

I have a pair of Reebok's " Trail Runner's " that's soled with a thing called Duraride and they are AWESOME. I personnaly have never had a problem with Vibram soled shoes.

[Dogwood]

This is why I am trying to figure this out. I've had Vibram shoes that had great traction, the Badrocks, and ones that were not so great, which is basically everything else and I found that tread didn't really matter that much. I'm trying to find out what that key variable is and sole material seems like the best place to start.

Does anyone have thoughts on rubber vs vibram? As far as I know, rubber grips better but is less durable and does not absorb shock as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I though there was a longer list of materials than just these two but my mind is drawing a blank.

Traction in a running shoe in a hiking/backpacking situation on the type of terrain (The White Mountains) and in the mixed conditions you describe is not just a factor of sole composition. It may be that you're attempting to exactly compare dry climbing shoe sole compositions on various rock surfaces use with this type of hiking which may lead to some confusion.

Again Vibram is a company that not only makes various shoes but also various different sole designs(compositions, treads, etc) so don't assume they are all equal in performance.

If you liked the Montrail Badrocks so much why don't you FULLY investigate what you think made their traction so great? From what I can recall the Montrail Badrocks used a Gryptonite composition sole utilizing multi-directional lugs for better traction in wet and dry use. As Montrail says the sole design had 'Deflecting lugs for cushioning and digging lugs at perimeter for traction for up and down hills' They describe Gryptonite as 'Sticky rubber compound engineered for optimal performance with a combination of traction and durability on both wet and dry surfaces'. Check out the tread patterns on the Badrocks sole. There are several models(WO w/ the Outdry, mids, non wp, diffrent yrs etc). Montrail still uses Gryptonite on other trail runner models. Try to match what you had. That may help reducing the various factors that go into your traction question.

[fiddlehead]

This is a very good question by the OP.
I usually judge which shoe I buy by it's weight and tread design.
It's nice when it's a brand name I like although they seem to always discontinue the best models. (probably don't make much money on a shoe that lasts twice as long as another )

Anyway, it would be nice if there was a way to measure the traction efficiency of a sole on wet rocks.
And then each company would list this measurement on their website or shoebox or whatever.

However, we, as long distance trekkers, are probably one of the few who care.

Does anyone know if this dilemma comes up in a trail running forum?

[Venchka]

Clarification on Vibram, company and products...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibram

http://www.vibram.com/index.php/us/

All the best on your hike in the Whites. Wish I could be there.

Wayne

[Venchka]

Dogwood,
The Badrocks sound perfect. I want a pair. Any clue as to a similar replacement?
AK: 5.10 brings back long lost memories. I did not know that they were still around. Thanks.

Wayne

[Dogwood]

Traction of trail running shoes in mixed wet, muddy, icy, slipper roots, slippery rock faces/slabs/boulders, and light snow depth conditions on various terrain(compacted soils, granite slabs) like might be encountered on the AT through The Whites and overall New Hampshire and like Another Kevin depivted is discussed on running sites but from my experience most often not from a sole only composition perspective but rather from the combined perspective of tread design/tread pattern(or altering it through add on removable traction enhancements or dedicated trail runners for these conditions - winter trail runners, Icebugs w/ carbide tips for example,), running characteristics, etc. Although, there are trail runners that are said to be good from the door to the trail and back there are compromises somewhere happening. I personally wouldn't want to be backpacking/overnight hiking in the Whites in the conditions Tron described with street runners that aren't going to provide the necessary traction.

[Dogwood]

Venchka, I'm glad what I threw out there helped but your question is probably best answered by someone who knows more than me seeing the bigger picture but also aware of the details including the details of your foot characteristics, types of hiking you most often do, personal biomechanics, etc. I'm not a running shoe expert by any means. Montrail does offer Gryptonite soled trail runners though in that narrow scope of an answer to the OP's question. Check out their site. I would also review running sites and patronize hardcore professional running stores/or those outfitters with knowledgeable hiking shoe staff THAT WILL SPEND TIME WITH YOU. This can really help a hiker identify proper shoes for their hiking. Trail running websites offer a host of valuable info that can easily be applied to backpacking. Using trail runners for hiking is the direction that things are going(have gone?) too. This may seem like going to extremes at first to many hikers but IMHO getting the shoes right is integral to happy hiking.

[Tron-Life]

Tron

I'm not suggesting this is what your looking for, just some info on the evolution, and as a jumping off point. Like the quest for the best venting rain gear, we all are lookin' for the best stickiest traction we can find...tread pattern also has a lot to do with that, smooth or lugged, are we hiking on rocks or mud...finding that happy medium and a one shoe fits all is the big $64,000 dollar question that not only we hikers ask ourselves, but the company's that make the shoes/boots we wear ask themselves too...good luck.

This is almost exactly what I was looking for, thanks.

[Tron-Life]

Dogwood,
The Badrocks sound perfect. I want a pair. Any clue as to a similar replacement?
AK: 5.10 brings back long lost memories. I did not know that they were still around. Thanks.

Wayne

You could try looking for Montrail Rockridge, the precursor for the Badrocks, or the Fair Havens. They are both great shoes but are too narrow at the top, which is really annoying as they are almost perfect in every way. I have a size 14 pair of Rockridges if anyone wants, but I'm probably the only freak out here with feet that huge. If anyone's interested pm me.

[Dogwood]

Maybe not. 14 4E

Good luck in you search Tron. It was a valid question. I'd like to know what sole material composition I should be looking for in those conditions myself if it will make a significant difference in traction and various sole materials are available to meet those conditions. Why don't you ping some shoe companies making wet or winter weather trail runners.

[Bucho]

Just curious as I was talking to somebody about vibram being slippery. Actually, all the shoes I have been getting are really slippery on rocks and metal and they are all vibram. Does NB make a non-vibram trailrunner? Anyway, let's talk about sole material and their benefits and drawbacks.

I wouldn't call vibram slippery, it's decidedly more sticky than it's predecessors (though the amount of friction changes drastically on wet surfaces which is where people tend to get in trouble) it also wears out faster than it's predecessors. Now you can get even stickier rubbers but they'll wear out even faster.

If you want an incredibly sticky sole you could get these: http://www.backcountry.com/five-ten-...oach-shoe-mens

....but they'll wear out if you so much as look at them funny.

[bigcranky]

We just did the Long Trail in Inov8 Roclites, which have an outer sole of sticky rubber. They stuck like glue to very sloping rock faces, more so when dry and less so when wet, but they sure stuck. However, I could see the soles wearing out every day, as the soft rubber was worn away by hiking. In general, harder rubber compounds are less sticky but last longer.

[Kerosene]

I ordered a pair of the Inov8 RocLites earlier this week for my Maine section hike in late Sept.

[Gersh]

I personally do not like Vibram soles and steer away from shoe companies that use them. I hiked half of the AT last year and loved my pair of Wenger approach shoes. I now have a pair of Mammut approach shoes and have been very satisfied with their grip and durability. Approach shoes are the way to go for me. I find them comfortable, durable and their traction is superior.

[Venchka]

I personally do not like Vibram soles and steer away from shoe companies that use them. I hiked half of the AT last year and loved my pair of Wenger approach shoes. I now have a pair of Mammut approach shoes and have been very satisfied with their grip and durability. Approach shoes are the way to go for me. I find them comfortable, durable and their traction is superior.

If I knew where to find Wenger and Mammut shoes I would give them consideration. So far, the only European descendant shoes that I have access to are Lowa, Scarpa and Salewa. The Salewa Firetail and Wildfire look right in the stores, but I have no experience with either.
Mrs. Wayne and I hiked up and down Rough Ridge yesterday in our Vibram soled Moab Ventilators without incident. Wet. Mud. Grit. Slime. Steep angled slabs. No poles. No problems.

Wayne

[bigcranky]

I ordered a pair of the Inov8 RocLites earlier this week for my Maine section hike in late Sept.

I was actually pretty surprised when my wife cleaned the shoes after our hike - they're in better shape than I expected, and I can probably get the rest of the hiking season out of them.

Note that the Roclites are very light and flexible, but you probably knew that We both used aftermarket insoles, Superfeet Green for me and Sole insoles for her. (I really like the Sole, which I'd never seen before until the outfitter in Manchester Center. They appear to have a better heel cup and arch than the Superfeet - I'm going to try a pair.) The insoles helped with arch support and some small rock protection.

[Just Bill]

Saying Vibram sucks is like saying you don't like Michelin tires. It's just a brand- with dozens upon dozens of versions for different conditions. Racing slicks or Monster truck mud paddles- B.F. Goodrich makes em both.
Otherwise- great thread with lots of good info.

Stickiest rubber- climbing/aproach shoes. Worst rubber- heavy stuff in boots.
Open rock- minimal tread/no lugs. Thick mud- decent lugs, aggressive tread.
Everything else is something in between.
Best rubber- Trojan.

Personally- Regardless of the exact composition, a more minimal, flexible shoe that gives good ground feel seems best to me.
Midwest, Mid-Atlantic, Southern trails- I wear road shoes. Up North- Trail runners.

[Another Kevin]

Stickiest rubber- climbing/aproach shoes. Worst rubber- heavy stuff in boots.
Open rock- minimal tread/no lugs. Thick mud- decent lugs, aggressive tread.
Everything else is something in between.

Worst rubber? Least sticky, granted. But boots with aggressive lugs and harder rubber do better in mud and snow. And the tread doesn't wear out near as fast. I'd say that the heavy boot rubber is simply "unfit for the purpose." (This is assuming that the boots are well made - of course there's bad rubber out there.)

I do a few miles of roadwalking daily - trying not to lose ALL of my conditioning. I wear shoes that the manufacturer labels "walking shoes" rather than trail runners. The soles have very little grip indeed - and would be unsafe on a tough trail - but they last. I find that when I retire a pair of "walking shoes", it's usually because the midsole has collapsed or I've worn through the linings. This is on pavement that would eat the tread of my trail runners.

All my off-pavement walking is Up North. As conditions go from bad to worse I shift from trail runners (I like a decent rock plate, because the rocks here are sharp), to big clunky leather boots, to even bigger and clunkier pac boots. The last almost always have microspikes, snowshoes or crampons attached, according to the snow conditions. For me, at least, I find that "hiking boots" are crowded out in the middle. By the time things are nasty enough that I don't feel safe in trail runners, I want full leather.

If I switch focus from the Catskills to the Adirondacks, I'll need a pair of approach shoes. Most of the scrambling in the Cats is boulder scrambling and crack climbing, because it's all sandstone. Lots of edging and manteling. In the 'Daks, there's a lot more scrambling up slabby granite rockslides, needing to use friction holds, and you need a shoe suitable for smearing.

[rocketsocks]

The rubber (Vibram) on my Merrell "Perimeters" GTX is quite sticky and allows me to scramble around one of my favorite bouldering spots when day hiking.

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