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  1. #81
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    Bill !! you are a true weirdo !! keep it up !!

  2. #82
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    The who has priority to use the shelter question, to me, is who is the most stupid that needs to be protected from themselves.
    Do not expect anything to be provided for you. tent, stove, rain gear, shelter, warm clothes etc. expect severe conditions to happen.
    I expect thru hikers to carry all they need. Week enders who get surprised in an unexpected rain storm, or cold front, poor planning.
    If crap happens to you, go home and try to do it right next time.

  3. #83
    Registered User Dogtra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Wolf View Post
    so glad i never stay in them. they truly suck and are for newbies and the lazy really
    Is your attitude necessary?

  4. #84
    Registered User Dogtra's Avatar
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    The best piece of wisdom I've seen in this thread is to treat others the same as you would have them treat you. Be respectful. Be kind.

    There are not any concrete rules regarding shelters. For example...
    Someone said never to pitch a tent in a shelter. My experience during my second thru-hike attempt, very early on, broke this "rule" at Blood Mountain Shelter. I had strained my ankle and wanted to rest it before descending the mountain. Unfortunately it was extremely cold, I was alone, and the shelter mice were the boldest little buggers I'd ever experienced in all my years hiking. Dozens were running around in daylight, even when I was inside the shelter. Yes, I pitched my tent inside.

    While its normally only expected of hikers to try for stealth/silence in the early and late hours of the day, there are times when considerate and kind individuals have kept it quiet around a couple shelters during active hours when there are sick individuals resting inside. Did they have to? No. But it was nice of them to do so. Most of the people out there are kind and look out for each other.

    The one thing I disagree with is the rights of dog handlers to have their dogs in shelters. There is no law against it. I'm planning for another thru-hike attempt in a couple years and for the first time I will be bringing my K9 with me. More to the point, I will be using shelters when I'm able and choose to. If my dog does something to warrant his exclusion from staying in them, then and only then will I step out and stay under my tarp instead. I accept responsibility for my dog. But for anyone to say he or I aren't allowed just because of his existence as a dog, instead of any ill-action he or I have done? Sorry, that won't fly with me. It's a public space and we have just as much right to it as anyone else. There are plenty of hikers that I've come across that are stinky, spread mud inside shelters, and generally annoy me a little. Does that give me the right to say "Get out"? No, it doesn't.

    Again I'll say to treat others the same you would like to be treated. Its the best "rule" to follow.

  5. #85

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    This is one of those hot-button topic on here, as evidenced by the number of posts already logged in such a short period.

    I don't get the interest, but I think it confirms my belief that it's best to just tent

  6. #86
    Registered User Kraken Skullz's Avatar
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    Well said Dogtra.

    I have a saying that I like to bring up when forums get hot under the collar. It's actually a simple poem that goes like this:

    You have your opinion and I have mine.
    We can disagree and that's just fine.
    Let's keep it courteous and not cross the line, because when words try to hurt us, we all lose our mind.
    "Truth is anything you can convince someone else to believe" - Me

  7. #87
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    I wouldn't give up my spot in a shelter for anyone that wasn't sick or in danger because they weren't properly equipped. Then again, I've never stayed in a shelter and usually don't even tent near them. As far as dogs, they belong outside with their owners. Some people don't like dogs or are afraid of them. If you make the decision to bring a dog, you live with that decision.

    A handy skill is to learn how to set up your tent in the rain, and to buy a tent that can be set up in the rain without getting your gear wet. I was tenting near a shelter in NH when a couple arrived and tried for about half an hour to set up their tent unsuccessfully. They ended up in the shelter.

  8. #88

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    Y'all gon' make me lose my mind
    up in here up in here.
    "Hiking is as close to God as you can get without going to Church." - BobbyJo Sargent aka milkman Sometimes it's nice to take a long walk in THE FOG.

  9. #89
    Clueless Weekender Another Kevin's Avatar
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    Shelter etiquette is all common sense, really. You learnt most of it in kindergarten. Play nice, share, take turns, and think of what would happen if everybody did that!

    First come, first served. It's nice to vacate for another hiker, but not necessary. On the other hand, you don't own the place. When others come in, you share. When the first ones in don't share, don't argue, just move on. You don't want to share a shelter with someone like that, anyway.

    Hikers are a pretty earthy bunch, so don't make a fuss about accidentally seeing someone's you-know-what or having someone see yours. "Nudity is often seen and never noticed" is a pretty good principle. On the other hand, at least try not to expose yourself, particularly if there are kids about. You can get pretty good at a quick change under an unzipped sleeping bag or a quick duck behind the shelter, perhaps with a warning "I'm going to go change real quick, back in a few!"

    Pee goes in the woods, well away from the shelter clearing, NOT anywhere that someone might camp when the shelter overflows, and NOT close enough to stink up the place. Poo goes in the privy - and nothing else, beside TP, does. If there's no privy, use a proper cat hole, at least 75 steps away. Ideally, hold it until you can hike on to a less congested area. But it's better to have an empty house than a bad tenant.

    Don't cook inside the shelter. Don't eat inside the shelter. Don't store food inside the shelter if you don't want the mice in it. Cooking on a stove under the overhang or on the cook shelf (if there is one) is sort of acceptable in bad weather.

    Actually, all the above can be summarized: "don't poop where you eat. Don't sleep in either place." Which is a pretty good general principle at all times and in all places.

    If you must deal with dogs, sex, electronic devices, burning herbs (lawful, quasi-lawful, or otherwise), domestic disturbances, bright lights, loud noises, or bad smells, do it somewhere else. This includes even the best-behaved dogs. I like nice trail dogs, but not everyone does. And even some sweetheart dogs suffer a personality change when they catch wind of a coyote. They remember kinship that you may have forgotten.

    If your headlamp has a red light setting, use it when nature calls or when you want a predawn departure. Try to be quiet getting in and out. If you know you're leaving early, pack everything you can the night before so that you have minimum ruckus in the morning.

    Don't pitch a tent or hammock inside the shelter. An exception is that in winter, if you've brought a tarp big enough to cover all or most of the open wall, it's OK to rig it with the unanimous consent of those inside. Unanimous consent is usually granted, since everyone else wants to get out of the wind, too.

    Don't make conversation with people who want to be alone with their thoughts. A great many hikers want to chat, but some don't. A brief conversation about trail conditions with people who came in the opposite direction from you is almost always acceptable, and the obligatory initial remark about the weather will let you judge whether people want to talk. Don't complain about the conditions, ever. Consider the difference, though, between whining, "that rock scramble down Blackhead was so steep! Didn't the maintainers ever hear of switchbacks?" and grinning, "wow, that was an awesome scramble! Blackhead is a tough mountain!" Remember that a week from now, whatever you're complaining about will have been a fun challenge.

    Don't explode your gear all over the shelter, or at least pick it up when others come in. Don't hang wet gear over the sleeping area. It won't get dry anyway. Try putting it between your sleeping pad and ground sheet, instead. Don't put your pack in the space next to you. Hang it, or lay it at your head or feet, or sleep on it for extra insulation. In general, don't use more than your share of the space.

    Fire pits, bear boxes, privies, the crawl space under the shelter, and all other places in the vicinity are not garbage cans. It was light enough for you to carry it in. Carry it out.

    There are more obvious rules that I've seen violated, such as "don't discharge a firearm inside a shelter," "don't get so drunk that you spend the night puking in the firepit," and "pages from the shelter register are not suitable as toilet paper", but you already know all of those. People are stupid.
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  10. #90
    Registered User Kraken Skullz's Avatar
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    Kevin, that pretty much sums it up. Go ahead and close the thread, because you have hit all of the nails on the head IMO.
    "Truth is anything you can convince someone else to believe" - Me

  11. #91
    Registered User Dogtra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraken Skullz View Post
    Well said Dogtra.

    I have a saying that I like to bring up when forums get hot under the collar. It's actually a simple poem that goes like this:

    You have your opinion and I have mine.
    We can disagree and that's just fine.
    Let's keep it courteous and not cross the line, because when words try to hurt us, we all lose our mind.
    It can be difficult for people to remain calm and respectful in threads like this sometimes because some people can only respond to differing opinions with hostility, which is sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by bangorme View Post
    As far as dogs, they belong outside with their owners. Some people don't like dogs or are afraid of them. If you make the decision to bring a dog, you live with that decision.
    People don't like everybody in the world. It is only natural.
    Some women are afraid of men. Should men then tent out if such a woman were setup in a shelter?
    I could just as easily say to anyone that is afraid of dogs and decides to go hiking that there will likely be other hikers with dogs, so they should "live with that decision". There are many things out on the trail that people either don't like or fear -- We still hike.

    If my dog is misbehaving in anyway whatsoever, I will leave the shelter and tent out. If he is behaving however and a demand is made of me to leave... I'll be staying in the shelter. Nobody has the right to tell me to step out of a public/common space unless my dog or I are being disruptive. Period. If you or anyone else has an issue with that, Please PLEASE bring backup shelter and be prepared to use it.

    Please don't mistake me for an irresponsible owner either. I train working dogs for a living. My dog has a strict daily training regimen and has reached obedience levels well beyond that of a companion animal alone. I'll say it one last time - I will exit if my dog has DONE something to deserve "shelter banishment", but that action must be greater than "he was born and is present".

  12. #92
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    Just overall (I'm addressing this to everybody) don't you think it's worthwhile keeping in mind that we are a percent of a percent of a percent of a percentage of AT users?

    I've had to ah joy of observing up-close-and-personal AT users that do not practice what most here agree on.
    Some of them couldn't care less, some think they are privileged. Just move on.
    Miles to go before I sleep. R. Frost

  13. #93
    Registered User Dogtra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Kevin View Post
    "don't poop where you eat. Don't sleep in either place." Which is a pretty good general principle at all times and in all places.
    That's cute.

    I enjoyed and agreed with the majority of your post. Not all of it mind... but I'll be beating a dead horse if I say it again.
    Well done.

  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by squeezebox View Post
    The who has priority to use the shelter question, to me, is who is the most stupid that needs to be protected from themselves.
    Do not expect anything to be provided for you. tent, stove, rain gear, shelter, warm clothes etc. expect severe conditions to happen.
    I expect thru hikers to carry all they need. Week enders who get surprised in an unexpected rain storm, or cold front, poor planning.
    If crap happens to you, go home and try to do it right next time.
    Wait a minute - are you allowed to answer a question to a thread you started by asking a question? Isn't this some kind of thread etiquette violation.
    "Hiking is as close to God as you can get without going to Church." - BobbyJo Sargent aka milkman Sometimes it's nice to take a long walk in THE FOG.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogtra View Post
    The best piece of wisdom I've seen in this thread is to treat others the same as you would have them treat you. Be respectful. Be kind.

    There are not any concrete rules regarding shelters. For example...
    Someone said never to pitch a tent in a shelter. My experience during my second thru-hike attempt, very early on, broke this "rule" at Blood Mountain Shelter. I had strained my ankle and wanted to rest it before descending the mountain. Unfortunately it was extremely cold, I was alone, and the shelter mice were the boldest little buggers I'd ever experienced in all my years hiking. Dozens were running around in daylight, even when I was inside the shelter. Yes, I pitched my tent inside.

    While its normally only expected of hikers to try for stealth/silence in the early and late hours of the day, there are times when considerate and kind individuals have kept it quiet around a couple shelters during active hours when there are sick individuals resting inside. Did they have to? No. But it was nice of them to do so. Most of the people out there are kind and look out for each other.

    The one thing I disagree with is the rights of dog handlers to have their dogs in shelters. There is no law against it. I'm planning for another thru-hike attempt in a couple years and for the first time I will be bringing my K9 with me. More to the point, I will be using shelters when I'm able and choose to. If my dog does something to warrant his exclusion from staying in them, then and only then will I step out and stay under my tarp instead. I accept responsibility for my dog. But for anyone to say he or I aren't allowed just because of his existence as a dog, instead of any ill-action he or I have done? Sorry, that won't fly with me. It's a public space and we have just as much right to it as anyone else. There are plenty of hikers that I've come across that are stinky, spread mud inside shelters, and generally annoy me a little. Does that give me the right to say "Get out"? No, it doesn't.

    Again I'll say to treat others the same you would like to be treated. Its the best "rule" to follow.

    Very well said!!



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  16. #96
    Clueless Weekender Another Kevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogtra View Post
    If my dog is misbehaving in anyway whatsoever, I will leave the shelter and tent out. If he is behaving however and a demand is made of me to leave... I'll be staying in the shelter. Nobody has the right to tell me to step out of a public/common space unless my dog or I are being disruptive. Period. If you or anyone else has an issue with that, Please PLEASE bring backup shelter and be prepared to use it.

    Please don't mistake me for an irresponsible owner either. I train working dogs for a living. My dog has a strict daily training regimen and has reached obedience levels well beyond that of a companion animal alone. I'll say it one last time - I will exit if my dog has DONE something to deserve "shelter banishment", but that action must be greater than "he was born and is present".
    Good manners sometimes consists of rules that don't necessarily make sense. There's no really sound reason for not using your dessert spoon to eat your mashed potatoes at a dinner party - but it's not done, and doing so marks the eater out as boorish. There's no good reason that clearing one's throat is a polite way to get someone's attention, but a hiccough, eructation or flatulency is not. "No dogs in shelters" is widely regarded as being such a rule of good manners. It is sometimes justified by the fact that some dogs are ill-behaved or that some people are uncomfortable around dogs, but a lot of the discomfort simply stems from the fact that it's departing from what's generally regarded as mannerly. It doesn't need to make sense. It's similar to, if less obvious than, the rule of "don't take dogs into other people's houses or places of business unless they're invited. Don't presume that an invitation to you applies to the dog."

    Of course, if the dog is a service dog on the job or being trained, he may need to be somewhere to do his job. That's an exception, similar to the idea that a houseguest doesn't just go prying into the cupboard under the kitchen sink, but the plumber may need to.

    EDITED TO ADD: Many of the places I hike have a formal "no dogs in shelters" regulation. So I'm also warning you not to do something that, around here, you can get a ticket for. The part that I always have trouble remembering is which color of state land I'm on. Here, in the state parks, you can camp at designated areas only. If a lean-to is full, you're supposed to camp within sight of it. In the state forests, you're supposed to disperse your impact. The inside of a lean-to is a campsite, the outside is off limits for 150 feet in all directions.

    AND ONE MORE EDIT: If it was just me, the dog would be welcome. I wouldn't ask him to leave. If he was a nuisance, I might decide to tent somewhere else. Don't get insulted if I do, because I usually do, anyway.
    Last edited by Another Kevin; 08-21-2014 at 10:27.
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  17. #97
    Registered User Dogtra's Avatar
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    You are entitled to your opinion just as much as I am, Kevin. I respectfully disagree with you.

    If I were to take my dog and snuggle up beside you under your tarp, then I could see you saying "Get out" and you would be perfectly justified. Yet the fact remains that shelters are common space, you nor I own it. Without a law saying otherwise - my dog and I will be staying in the shelter when its available and when I choose to.

    As a dog owner it is up to me to be prepared if 1) I can't fit inside a shelter and/or 2) My dog misbehaves and loses the right to stay in shelters.
    On the other hand a dog hater must be equally prepared to setup camp outside if they can't live with that.

  18. #98
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    shelters are common space for human beings. all the dog owners i know wouldn't think of staying in a shelter with their dogs. they respect non - dog owners

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  20. #100
    Registered User Dogtra's Avatar
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    Lone Wolf - I will not fall victim to online intimidation or passive aggressive insults to my integrity.

    However if you, Kevin, or anyone else can tell me that shelters are legitimately off limits to dogs (whether in general or specific locations along the AT)....
    THEN I'll respect that and setup my tarp. Without that I'm afraid "....Because...." just isn't good enough.

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