In My Opinion, There is Room for Improvement in Tent Research and Purchasing Dynamics

[July]

In August I started researching tents, having not purchased one in over ten years. I thought that this process would take the better part of an evening, since I roughly knew what I wanted in a tent. It has taken the better part of many evenings over the past four months. I'm still not ready to decide on something. This process is not efficient in that there appears to be a breakdown in the market here in terms of information. I should be able to go to a non-specific-vendor web site, and enter my desired specifications and get a listing of tents (shelters) that I can buy that meet my desired features/pricing. From that point, I can further research the few tents that meet my parameters. If such a web site exists, I'd appreciate somebody telling me about it, because I've got two pages of hand-made Excel spreadsheet data on tents, and I'm not even 25% done with what the market has to offer. I just can't believe that there isn't a clearinghouse web site for people to see everything out there in one place for apples to apples comparisons. Maybe there is and I'm just too clueless to have found it, but in going through pages in these forums, I've missed it if such a database or link to it is out there. I hope it exists.

My hunch is that some tent makers don't really want all of the data out there in one place because then the bad makers (and there are several) would lose market share through a better informed market. However, consumer ignorance is never a good business strategy, and the lack of portable and reliable information on tents is causing people to make poor choices in their purchasing; or, make no purchase; or, spend many hours before making a purchase. Yet, some poor tents are expensive and popular, and some excellent tents are economical and under-purchased. In turn, this isn't good for encouraging more people to enjoy the outdoors. If this information is not compiled, then we should develop a template and crowd source the data for it so that we're not reinventing the wheel every time somebody asks, "I need a tent for such and such." Every day that I look I find a tent that I've never even heard of, and about once per week, I run across an entire tent making company that I've never heard of (usually cottage industry, but still selling potentially viable products). If Wikipedia can police its own data on everything from obscure dead languages to the estimated weight of Pluto, can't we come up with a running list of at least the basic specifications on tents that one can buy? Even if it just listed the brand, the name of the tent, the price range, the trail weight, and the accurate floor dimensions, that would be incredible. Of course, it would be even better if we could also get the number of doors, the fabric type and thickness, if it is free standing or not, the maximum ceiling height, if it is tub floor or not, interior or exterior accessible vent flaps, if that particular tent is still being made, etc. All of that on all of the available tents would make for a popular and lucrative web site.

Here is my point in a nutshell: Because of the lack of centralized information from what I can find, I have spent more time researching for my next tent than I spent researching for my last new car purchase. And every time I look, I see a post from somebody else on a web site who is doing the same research that I'm doing while going from web site to web site and trying to synthesize the data on tents/shelters. The makers, and, for a variety of reasons, the sellers, do not have a vested interest in addressing this issue. If this data isn't really in one frequently updated location, then this is a serious efficiency and market forces problem for the outdoor industry, in my opinion. If this is going to get better, it is going to need to be consumer-driven and/or entrepreneur-driven.

It's not complicated, select a Tarp, and start hikin' the AT.

[T-Rx]

There is no "one size fits all" concept with tents and no tent is perfect. There are a multitude of options and choices in tents and each person has different ideas or needs regarding their shelter system. You just have to find a system that works best for you. I have a single wall tarptent, a Big Agnes free standing double wall tent (copper spur UL3) and hammocks. They all have their place and purpose, or maybe I just have an obsession with buying backpacking gear!!

[Franco]

"but cuben fiber seems like the ideal tent material, being significantly lighter and I can rub against the single wall without getting wet"
How did you come to that conclusion ?

BTW, Backpackinglight years ago had a very extensive chart, they then gave up...
There was also a European site called Find Me a Tent listing a few dozen manufacturers including many that are not well known outsite their own country, this was updated for a couple of years then disappeared.

One problem that I have pointed out several times about choosing by number is "floor size" .
Looking at square footage only (not taking into account usable space) can eliminate tents that offer more practical space (3D)than shelters with much greater square footage (2D) do.
Same is choosing by designations like "2/3/4 p".
You could end up with a 3 person tent that has less cubic space than a 2 person version.

[Franco]

"My hunch is that some tent makers don't really want all of the data out there in one place because then the bad makers (and there are several) would lose market share through a better informed market."



About the only figure that comes to mind that could be used to determine "good or bad" is the published (by the manufacturer) weight against the real weight.
But here also it isn't all that simple if you look at a total (call it trail weight) that can include or not different items.
A notorious example is one manufacturer that includes 1 or 2 gram stakes.
Most buyers will never used them yet 12 of those can still be lighter than just one from another .
Some include guylines most don't.
Some will include the stuff sack , others don't .
Anyway in the end (for me) bypassing one shelter because ,say, it is a few ounces heavier than another may not be the wisest thing if all the other parameters are not taken into account.
For example : Max Weight 2 pounds.
So what happens to the 2 lbs 3 oz shelter ?
How do we know that it isn't much better overall than the 2 lbs one offered by someone else ?

[Connie]

Franco, I figure big-and-tall people and people 5'2" know how to look out for themselves.

They look for dimensions. They should look at the angle of the tent wall.

I could write that up. There is "no way" however I am going to be a "personal shopper" for anyone, because there are different uses and different seasons.

There are different climates.

The "best" tarp, tent, tarp tent, bivy is, finally, individual choice.

I think, all anyone can do, is point out these things: what materials? what features?

There are still people that will purchase what they saw in a movie, or, a magazine.

I rely on the movies and the magazines to ahiw me what stupid things people will be doing, for a "heads up" on rescues. I hope I don't have to rescue them. I can however "show up" at the popular-public places to lend a hand, if indicated. I like that about the big trail kick-off. I am not there. I am at the trouble spots, in the national parks.

[Franco]

"They should look at the angle of the tent wall."
But often don't.
Even after publishing photos of how a 90" floor can be too short for a 6' person and how an 84" one can take a 6'4" person some will still come back with "this tent has a 92" long floor..."
Add to that the often forgotten bit that a mat will rob us of more space (with non vertical walls) as well as the fact that our sleeping bags are longer and thicker than we are.

[Franco]

Now that I have covered some of the why not bits, I can say that I do understand the frustration.possibly the biggest problem is starting with the idea that there is a perfect product out there but really there isn't.
For the last 15 years or so I have not had less than 10 different shelters on hand.
Every year one or more would be disposed off and another or two would take its place.
Still having on top of that the opportunity to borrow and test shelters from the local shops (I had a very good relationship with several dealers) I never found one that I could say "this is it"
So learn about how different shelters behave in different situations , learn what you like/require and then trust your feelings and choose one.
BTW, after searching for several years and fiddling with many brands I ended up working with the brand that most closely represented my likes.

OK, one parting shot...
Contrary to the relatively small amount of shelters discussed here , there are hundreds of backpacking tents available out there.

[HeartFire]

1. I am not being sarcastic when I say this, but learn to sew.

Mags, The license plate on my car is "LRN-2-SEW"

I've been sewing all my life, I teach 4-H kids to sew, and of course own LightHeart Gear & Excelsior Sewing - the factory where we make the LightHeart Gear tents.

Judy

[Ground Control]

BTW, Great job for your part (tuteledge, perhaps?) on Matt Kirk's pack, Judy! Reading about his prepping, hike, and advice team made me so very North Carolina proud.

Mags, I've been looking forward to your tent reviews, as 2 recent suggestions (Kelty Cosmo & the UL UniQlo Down Parka) have worked well for me.

Thanks (Slo Go 'em) for the link to the Outdoor Gear Lab reviews. Holy smokes, that is helpful! Ruled out two of my front-runners.

[Dacian]

Yes, that is a good tent review resource, and yes, when you do a google search on tent reviews, that one comes up as the first hit on the list. However, the problem here is that I suspect that those 24 tents, all combined, amount to less than 1% of the tents that are out there to buy, and, in total, they probably constitute less than 2% of all tents sold in a year. I'm not faulting the outdoorgearlab folks. I read that months ago and have returned to it several times and appreciate it. But, a very in-depth tent review over, as they say, multiple years, of 24 tents, fine as that is, does not equate to a thumbnail overview of 240 tents for rapidly culling the herd.

[Dacian]

I appreciate everyone's input. I backpacked in the 1970s and 1980s and now that our kids are old enough for us to leave alone, my wife and I are returning to backpacking. I gave us a $1,000 budget for new gear, footwear, etc. Up to this last purchase -- the shelter issue -- everything has been fine. Backpacking gear has come quite a long way in thirty years in terms of weight, quality, and price. Given that we're reaping the benefits of sharing the loads, we're at the point where we can splurge on shelter weight. So, I have up to 4 lb. to spend on a shelter and a remaining $325. That kind of high weight, combined with winter sale prices, makes for a pretty big Venn diagram of products for us to consider. However, whatever I buy, I need to live with for at least five years. And, actually, my wife was a professional seamstress in Europe where we met, so we considered making something from scratch, but the design work for that is daunting. Thanks.

[Connie]

"They should look at the angle of the tent wall."
But often don't.
Even after publishing photos of how a 90" floor can be too short for a 6' person and how an 84" one can take a 6'4" person some will still come back with "this tent has a 92" long floor..."
Add to that the often forgotten bit that a mat will rob us of more space (with non vertical walls) as well as the fact that our sleeping bags are longer and thicker than we are.

Franco, I remember reading about considering sleeping mat height near the tent or tarp wall in this forum.

I think a thread, only about the most desireable tents, tarps, tarp tents, free standing tents features, for what conditions (downpour, snow, hot humid weather, for example) and how they could be improved would be a good reference for considering tents, tarps, tarp tents, and free standing tents and a reference for the people who make and sell tents, tarps, tarp tents and free standing tents, the weight and useable floor space two of the features included.

WhiteBlaze has a section for only sticking to the topic.

[poopsy]

I'm always surprised that more people don't take advantage of this website: http://www.tenpoundbackpack.com/ Which is pretty close to a clearing house for gear info. Unfortunately the devil is always in the details, but it is still a reasonable starting point.

Glad that Judy came in on this thread. I like to pay attention to her and Mags.

It always amazes me how much info there is on tents and cars. Great for making a decision. But there is almost no info who to go to, or where to get a good medical operation like a lobotomy. Economists call this "market failure". Sometimes confusing info is better than no info.

As a last shot, I would like to say that the best tent doesn't exist. Usually the tent we are in is what we can cope with at that moment. There is not a tent that exists that I has not disappointed me at one point or another.

Good luck in your quest,

Poopsy

[Connie]

Dacian, I have been having a discussion in PM about the Seek Outside, Lil Bug Out shelter.

It can be carried by more than one person, as it is a modular design. It is a base + system, either base + base or base + vestibule is the most frequent use for one or two persons.

There is a setup available, all add-on, for up to eight family or friends.

In any option, the weight and volume is lightweight or UL.

The base + base, or, base + vestibule meets your intended use and your budget, right now.

Here is a review: http://www.rokslide.com/2012-01-09-0...shelter-system


I first found the Seek Outside brandname for my thread Small Wood Stoves for "Hunter's Tents" in a backpacking stove forum. http://www.bplite.com/viewtopic.php?...4539&start=320

That forum also has information with photos about sewing modern backpacking tent and tarp materials, and hammocks, for backpacking. It is Zelph's forum.

The Seek Outside shelters are similiar to the more familiar GoLite ShangriLa.

I am considering a Seek Outside shelter for myself.

[Mags]

Mags, I've been looking forward to your tent reviews, as 2 recent suggestions (Kelty Cosmo & the UL UniQlo Down Parka) have worked well for me.

Thanks. I really don't go a lot of gear reviews for specific items..more of a generalist. But I do like the Lunar Duo....

[LogHiking]

I like the idea of a dedicated all business review forum as it seems the most achievable to me. Get a group of well respected and knowledgeable members here that are willing to do it. Put a legitimate effort into it. And then send the info to all the manufacturers and request demos for testing. Maybe part of being included could be each person has to buy one most recent version of a desired backpacking tent per year to test. I like the way BPL does it, it just doesn't have the participation it needs.

[Mags]

http://www.backpackgeartest.org/ Not complete, but pretty good....

[HeartFire]

I like the idea of a dedicated all business review forum..... And then send the info to all the manufacturers and request demos for testing........

This won't work. At least not for me (LightHeart Gear) - Do you have ANY idea how many requests I get like this??? I would very soon be out of business. I cannot afford to give away gear to everyone ( or almost anyone) that want's to 'test and review' it. I get emails like this every day, most sound almost legit. If it's a really good cause, I'll offer a discount. But it's my policy - you want my gear, please buy it. That's what I'm in the business for. I do donate tents - at my discretion, and for causes I subscribe to, but they are MY choice. I also donate 1% of my profits to a charity (Jason Hunt Foundation ) and support other charitable causes. But please, don't ask the cottage gear manufactures for free stuff, we can't afford it.

[Connie]

I have experience with tarps, tents, free standing tents, no tarp tents, nevertheless, I look closely at the photos, at the specifications, at the description and at the materials.

By that means, I do not list "duds"... sometimes I am only waiting to see end-user reviews, and, those are the reviews I value. So don't judge any equipment, gear, or clothing because I left it out. My links have not been updated.

There is great gear I have found, recently. There is also great gear over 2.5 lbs. I set for myself not to list, because I think a tarp, tent, tarp tent or free standing tent should be a shared load to carry, if more than 2.5 lbs. because it is no longer lightweight for one person. I had to stop looking at this, at some point. 2.5 lbs. shelter seems reasonable to me for quality modern materials and craftsmanship.

I am saying, an experienced person can do this.

There is no reason to purchase it all. There is no reason to "beg" free gear.

I would rather "see" the gear for a store, I mentioned in another thread, be a traveling UL and lightweight gear "show" that just read a list. Maybe a list, of features. Then, end-user reviewers.

But no more self-styled "experts".

[LogHiking]

This won't work. At least not for me (LightHeart Gear) - Do you have ANY idea how many requests I get like this??? I would very soon be out of business. I cannot afford to give away gear to everyone ( or almost anyone) that want's to 'test and review' it. I get emails like this every day, most sound almost legit. If it's a really good cause, I'll offer a discount. But it's my policy - you want my gear, please buy it. That's what I'm in the business for. I do donate tents - at my discretion, and for causes I subscribe to, but they are MY choice. I also donate 1% of my profits to a charity (Jason Hunt Foundation ) and support other charitable causes. But please, don't ask the cottage gear manufactures for free stuff, we can't afford it.

Yes as an owner of two small business I would like to think I have at least a decent idea about the amount of requests you may get. One of ours that produces a seemingly cheap to produce product (3-D decals) and the other that provides a service (web development) and we get requests to ship free large quantities of the decals or do web development for free or for deferred payment and barter practically daily (web development). I field these request very frequently and do so politely and pleasantly because that is part of responsibility I undertook when I decided to start such a business.

With that said I agree that my suggesting dozens of random hikers asking all of the cottage manufacturers for free gear would be ludicrous, however I was not suggesting that. Although I'll admit I could have been more clear in my description. What I was suggesting is that either within this forum or within BPL or possibly a new forum created just for it where dozens of very well known, well respected, knowledgeable hikers within the community who have the time to do testing throughout the year team up and create a legitimate operation. Said operation then would as an entity, not individuals, send all of the information about what the group is doing along with a request to see if said gear manufacturers would be interested in participating. Also please note I said they would request demos as in demonstration models. They do not necessarily have to be brand new and by definition of the word demo they would be returned to the manufacturer after said testing is complete.