Unsustainable number of starts at Sprimger oww

[soilman]

Plenty of other areas for "the general population" to hike.

Lone Wolf seems to make a great deal of sense. If you accept that the number of hikers is not the problem but rather the cause of problems, why not talk about the specifics?

Since I have never been there in the spring, I can only use my imagination.

That said, I cannot imagine how gross the shelters up this way would be without privies, and how ugly the areas around them would be if fires were common.

I left the Hiker Hostel for Springer on April 7, the Wednesday after Easter Sunday with 6 other hikers. Shelters were filled to capacity every night until past the Smokies. I usually slept in my tent. Privies were almost overflowing at most sites. On Saturday, April 10, I camped at Low Gap shelter. There must have been 50 tents spread out. The shelter was full. The bear cables could not handle everyones food bags because of the shear number. That first week in addition to NOBO's there were about 5 boy scout troops and numerous college kids out for spring break. Shelter sites and fire rings were full of trash. Not just your usual unburnable aluminum, but discarded gear like ripped tents, plastic tarps, fuel canisters, etc.

[fiddlehead]

Two major problems come to my mind regarding over crowding of the trails:
Crime and health issues related to privy problems (lack of, or over full)
I've hiked in Europe and see what they do when there are no privys: they **** anywhere and everywhere and it there is NOTHING cool about it!
Telling people to bury it is one thing, giving them no options is another.

Crime is a whole nuther problem.
And a tough one.
No one wants the law at shelters (at least I don't)
But we also want to feel safe from the bad guys.
Cameras are most likely in the future. As much as we don't want them, they are a crime deterrent.

I can only hope the ATC makes good choices.

[rocketsocks]

Every hiker should wear a go pro camera on their sternum strap to catch all the infractions of others...NOT

[squeezebox]

In a large part of this stuff. I'm thinking of doing a flip flop Starting a Harpers Ferry May 1 , who wants to come along.
Seriously consider starting at a different place at a different time.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Every hiker should wear a go pro camera on their sternum strap to catch all the infractions of others...NOT

Wearing a go-pro would only serve to remind people like you and me of just how slow we're walking.

Besides, if someone actually wanted to use security cameras to deter crime on the A.T., the best location for them would at the trailheads and parking lots.

[rocketsocks]

Wearing a go-pro would only serve to remind people like you and me of just how slow we're walking.

Besides, if someone actually wanted to use security cameras to deter crime on the A.T., the best location for them would at the trailheads and parking lots.

I'd love to see cameras at parking lots, tired of worrying about break-ins every time I wanna go on a walk about, but at shelters or remote back country locations...no way, it would bring a tear to my eye.

[July]

I'd love to see cameras at parking lots, tired of worrying about break-ins every time I wanna go on a walk about, but at shelters or remote back country locations...no way, it would bring a tear to my eye.

Good call Socks, backcountry relies on the hikers ie the ones that walk through the forest, day to day to maintain order. When parking lots. etc, etc, the Local LEA needs to be present.

[jacob_springsteen]

I'm probably very confused here, but don't the day-trippers and weekenders still way outnumber the thrus? Are we considering what is actually a limited, local problem of the thru-hiker bubble in the first couple of hundred miles of trail, or does the perceived overuse problem extend beyond that?

That is what I don't get. The AT is crossed by many roads and many trailheads as such. The amount of dayhikers and section hikers are larger than the thru-hiker litany.

[Johnny Thunder]

the majority of folks that want to thru hike wanna do it the traditional way. georgia to maine starting feb-apr and the majority have never done any LD hiking or any overnight hiking for that matter. flip flopping, SOBOing or "alternate" routes are not something anybody is gonna sell them. what the AT needs in first 300 miles or so for 2 months is a caretaker (babysitter) at every shelter, more privies at each shelter and all fire pits destroyed at shelters. NO FIRES ALLOWED. they're comin' to georgia every year in bigger numbers. most of them don't come to WB, FB, TJ, etc. for info

lonewolf nailed it. the group of current year through hikers in no way resembles the population of whiteblaze posters (and lurkers). i know this because in 2008 whiteblaze was considered a bunch of cantankerous arguers and in 2013 it wasn't considered at all (ok, a section hiker asked me if i knew about the site) (boom! mileage drop!). so, consider that before you go off the rails devising exciting online education programs or calendars to register your start date. most current year hikers are just not going to see that stuff to know that they are or aren't doing something the "right" way.

(a side note: i don't know who all these "college aged" hikers are that are mucking up the trail with their april 1st start dates. i've never seen them. most nobo hikers start when they do because it a. makes sense and b. is the most fun and least struggle. i don't know how a "college aged" person would be able to start april 1st and still attend school.)

if you want to reach hikers you have to go where they are. put someone at each shelter, hostel, and feed from springer to franklin armed with an armful of awful robert service poems and an obnoxious (to-be-delivered-by-bullhorn) speech about leave no trace. double up the efforts on rainy nights by deploying auxiliary lecturers to every culvert, pavilion, and band shell in a 10 mile line from the ridge. then empower people further up the trail to enforce the rules.

also, pave the trail. stopping short of that: build more shelters, more established camp sites, and sweeter smelling privies. folks are coming and there's just no way you're going to stop that. make the controlled places to congregate more accessible and convenient (i'm looking at you, 1.2 miles off the trail shelter in georgia) and they'll cut down on the overuse of uncontrolled campsites. pull out the fire rings at each shelter and you'll have another two or three established tent spots on beat-to-death dirt.

the permit idea is intriguing but i don't see how you're going to get that information dispersed widely enough to avoid creating a general attitude of outlawism among the sorts of people that just read a blog site, quit their job, pack up, and go down to georgia (a mentality which i can say is by far in the majority). 2013 was one of the first years (if not the first) for the new smokie's permit and people made it franklin without knowing about it. how are you going to make sure everyone arrives at springer with all their ducks in a row? also, how are you going to enforce a permit or stamp program that traverses thousands of linear miles through multiple state and national forests and parks?

"oh no, sir. i wasn't hiking the appalachian trail. i was just standing on a bunch of leaves in close vicinity to something that looks like a trail."

education is your only out. you get most of the current year hikers to buy into lnt and you'll see that become the norm. people are wasters on a social hike because their friends and peers allow them to be wasters.

i spent a moderate amount of time discussing this problem with other hikers in 2013. most hikers recognize it to be a developing and expanding issue...even the ones who burn plastic trash or misuse shelters.

[illabelle]

Reading through the comments, we seem to have opinions all over the place, and so far, I don't see us approaching consensus. Some advocate for regulation and increased monitoring; some advocate for changes to the number and placement of campsites, shelters, and privies (both "tear 'em down" and "build a lot more"); others advocate for education (more, better, or different).

I fall in this last group. It's probably true that the bulk of trail users aren't on WB and aren't exposed to this discussion, but they are getting information from somewhere. Is it a movie? the GSMNP website? a book they picked up? A lot of people have heard of the AT, but they don't just wake up one morning at Springer. They first have to figure out how to get to Springer, so they are asking questions somewhere.

Seems like we need to have good information where they can easily find it while they're in the planning stages. The most important topic (from what I've read so far) is dispersing the crowd, accomplished by starting elsewhere, starting at a different time, or taking an alternate route (the BMT). Motivation to do so is created by relaying an un-exaggerated illustrated account of the nastiness, overcrowding, and discomfort associated with the typical springtime congregation of thrus, spring breakers, and Boy Scouts. Imagine a free brochure, widely available online and at every outfitter titled, "Thinking about Springer? Think Again: the dirty details". In it they read about sleeping in a badly located tent because all the good spots were taken. They read about stepping out for a midnight pee and stepping in ... something. They read about getting to the resupply point and all the food is gone. Then they read suggestions for how to avoid all this (SOBO, flip-flop, BMT), and how to find more information about those options.

LNT educators and enforcers don't help much if the hiker is already on the trail. If the privy is full, what do we expect them to do about it? Their energy and time are consumed just getting from point A to point B.

[Dogwood]

50 people per day may start the JMT during the summer months. There is not a tiny fraction of the problems the AT experiences.

Why?

1. Permits regulate persons entry points to spread them out
2. There are no shelters to serve as aggregating points
3. Hikers are instructed in where is permissible to camp for minimal damage
4. Rangers patrol the trail
5. The hikers are more sophisticated on average, and committed to protect the awesome area they are hiking thru
6. There is no travelling party mentallity
7. Far less poorly prepared people show up
8. Little road access
9. Managing agencies are committed to protecting the environment and the wilderness user experience.

The JMT works because all of these but can be summed up in one of them - #9 . The basis for the JMT's success and all the other eight posits is #9. The NPS operates under the mandate: "to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and wildlife therein, and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations. Carefully note what is mentioned first in the mandate - to conserve the scenery and the natural objects and wildlife therein. Note the placement and emphasis on "unimpaired."

The NPS manages the JMT so well through a balancing of conservation, preservation, and human recreation. The JMT is managed by the NPS from the perspective that conservation of Nature is of prime importance. Conservation and preservation are not ancillary objectives. Nature(the outdoors) is not merely the backdrop. Nor does the NPS mandate exist to solely protect Nature(the outdoors) for man but also from man. The NPS does not operate under an extreme human centric management mandate. That is, Nature is conserved for Nature's sake! The NPS knows very well "the" greatest threats to complying with the mandate often come from humanity itself. That is why the NPS takes extensive action to address this - proactively - as a stipulation for entry.

While the NPS does hope that all will come to love the woods(Nature). They don't leave it there! They do discourage visitors - visitors that threaten the mandate. The NPS doesn't mistakenly assume that all will eventually come to a point where they desire to protect Nature. The know some of humanity will come to a different desire - the desire to exploit Nature solely for human gain. Nor does the NPS idly "wait" for a respect for Nature to develop in visitors. NO, the NPS expects visitors to respect Nature as a condition of entry! The NPS may not define what it does as bombarding potential visitors with "the good word" but they certainly sow the "good word" AND directly impart it often as a stipulation for entry. While the NPS understands mistakes will be made they don't leave it there. They intentionally proactively takes steps to prevent mistakes - mistakes made out of ignorance that harm the environment and all wilderness users experiences current and into the future. They do it by requiring not only permits but by educating PRE HIKE PRE ENTRY. When permits are obtained knowledge, considerations, education, and yes, some rules are communicated, agreed to/consented to/understood by the person(s) seeking entry through a verbal and/or signatured agreement. If that small spark is to be stoked it has to be done in a way that does protect the resource from the potentially destructive visitor.

Now, contrast the execution of the NPS mandate in regards to managemnt of the JMT with the primary management goals of the AT ouside of the regulation free areas of the two NPs, the SPs, and the White Mountains. What I see is a managment style that is primarily catering to accomodating humans. Note all the problems discussed with the AT here. They all are stemming from humanity. Note the majority of the potential solutions offered. It seems like they all are based on perpetually greater accomodations for greater human usage. It seems like a slippery slope for the future of AT indeed.

[Seatbelt]

I believe giving them some such authority would be difficult and impractical.

How are you going to have rules such as "No fires Allowed" or like the ones in GSMNP without enforcers?? Just a waste of time without some kind of authority given to someone to enforce it.. We can wish and hope and teach all we want, But somebody has to follow up.

[Lone Wolf]

yup. gonna need a caretaker at every shelter and designated campsite for the first 200 miles or so for at least 6 weeks.plus a bunch of ridgerunners

[Starchild]

The more I think about it the more I am inclined to encourage the traditional NoBo. Do not disperse the crowd. If possible build up this area to accommodate the numbers and use this as a chance to meet ATC, trail clubs and the trail angel community that will be with them for the duration of their thru. This is a chance to start them off right and a educational opportunity.

If this crowd of inexperienced hikers is dispersed they will do what inexperienced hikers will do all over the trail and their will be much less change to mediate any damage and less chance to educate and let them know that they are just a part of a larger community that supports the AT experience.

[Connie]

"Now, contrast the execution of the NPS mandate in regards to managemnt of the JMT with the primary management goals of the AT ouside of the regulation free areas of the two NPs, the SPs, and the White Mountains. What I see is a managment style that is primarily catering to accomodating humans. Note all the problems discussed with the AT here. They all are stemming from humanity. Note the majority of the potential solutions offered. It seems like they all are based on perpetually greater accomodations for greater human usage. It seems like a slippery slope for the future of AT indeed."

I do not know, if the organizations that have the most impact on the AT have a real committment to.

I look at so many posts, and, so many photos. I see a "spring break" party attitude, with some walking, if that.

In fact, it looks like bums having a drunk.

I started out wearing old clothes and having hand-me-down clothing and gear for a hike. Did I look like a bum?

I don't think the actual thru-hikers, or, section hikers, show up for such a party.

This is the "image" you present to the world. Look at the results. Why are you surprised?

Most people visit a forum to see what is there. They do not comment.

I don't see trash and abuse you describe, anywhere, because campgrounds are closed, access roads are closed, arrests are made, there are fines. There are laws and town ordinances for vagrancy. Vagrants are jailed.

Police? Apparently, your "trail towns" want the crowds.

If you cared about overuse of the trail, you would have permits.

Have thru-hiker permits. Have section hiker permits.

[full conditions]

Many may need to start at these times for a many differing reasons, all anyone can really ask another to do is to consider the start time, and while it may affect the whole, It's a personal decision that no one need justify....either way it'll work out in the end, or it'll be worked out.

Yes, I fully understand that most thru hikers need to start in March and April - I get that. What you don't seem to get is that if we don't regulate ourselves by employing different thru hike strategies (some of which have been listed on the ATC's website) and making better choices, someone else is going to be making those choices for us. Consider this- most thru hikers I've met over the years bristle at the notion of having to get a permit to hike thru the Smokies and Shennandoah and they chafe at being told where they can camp and having to stay in certain shelters, or having to pay to camp in the Greens and Whites, etc.. . My point is that we can avoid making this become a reality for the entire trail by starting our long distance hikes and non-traditional locations and using a little bit more creativity in putting together our itineraries. It's kind of a failure of imagination on a grand scale.

[Coffee]

People complain about permits at SNP? They are self issue, no fee, and no quota permits available where the AT enters the park! I guess some people will complain about anything...

[Just Bill]

Lone Wolf makes a good point-
People want to hike a certain way, there isn't much you can do to stop them. Direct action is the only solution.

Johnny Thunder makes a decent observation-
Nobody knows exactly who the herd is. Or how they got there. I think WB could be and is a factor, but not a big one. I've done a few WB experiments as well, it seems to be a site people use but prefer not to disclose they use on the trail- but that is neither here nor there. Although Gator could likely give us a decent picture in noting how many new users join the site each year and how many stay past a year. Perhaps even the increase in traffic we all note from fall to spring. We all note the hopefuls who join, enthusiastically post/question/query and maybe even hike but are never heard from again.

Something for WB's to consider- why do people never return, and why are users ashamed to admit they use the site. HF is a nice site that encourages newbies, WB often is not. Or perhaps people simply move on, enjoy the woods, and put down the computer.

In fairness though- I will note that Georgia is easily my least favorite place on the trail. Even in June, local partiers and weekenders trash the trail. Dealing with local's is a local problem. But I note with sadness the little bundles of neatly compacted trash hidden amongst the trash often enough as well. And I too have had the conversation with the hiker around the fire disparaging the conditions, as he thoughtlessly slips his mountain house pouch into the pit.

Illabelle also reinforces-
Education and outreach to these folks, no matter how they arrive is important. In particular education as to the realities of the trail.

Dogwood-
To stick with the religious analogy- The JMT is the Vatican, you need only look to the fella it's named for to understand it's mission and sacred trust. The AT is a trail carved out of one of the most highly populated and damaged pieces of earth on the planet, reclaimed for the enjoyment of the people. It's a special place, but a different kind of special. It was meant to be a place to welcome the city man back to the woods. And to a certain extent- rebuild not only the woods we travel, but the traveler themselves. It's mission is not to protect untrammeled wilderness from humans, but to protect trammeled and downtrodden humans from town.

That said- a permit for start dates wouldn't be hard to enforce overall and is a solid idea in general.
To say nothing of the fact that it is a fact of life nearly everywhere else we travel.

Kill two birds with one stone-
Adopt the approach trail as part of the AT. End the age old debate on if the Approach trail "counts" or is "required". Just add it and be done with it- shelters already exist. It would have the "unintended" benefit of kindly reminding those who can't walk up the stairs that maybe they might want to rethink this journey. It is also a paved location for friends and family to wish dropped off hikers well without impacting the forest service road or camp area just north of Springer.

Shut down the FS road to access Springer from March to June. This forces people who don't know about it to go the Amicalola, where parking, visitor's center and other services already exist. Including a Ranger staffed sign in. Add space if needed for a "waiting room" to camp at for the inevitable folks who don't have a start date permit.

Require a reserved start date and Thru-Hike permit. Period.
Said permit could come with some potential attractive features;
Like a designated camp site for the first night.
Entry preference and pre-registration for the Smokies
Registration with ATC and even a free bonus gift or membership if they reach Harper's Ferry.
A passport (not that I am a fan, but if the ATC is promoting the passport system- why not make the permit the only way to receive one?)
A copy of AWOL's book or the fold up wall map or other gifts to encourage purchase of the permit.
The fee should also be waived for those who accept out of season NOBO, SOBO, or other alternative hike schedules.

As Lone Wolf said- without ranger or ridgerunner enforcement it's an empty gesture.
As Johnny mentioned- there is always that group that just shows up- no biggie. Park them in the "waiting camp" and have them sign up.

This would put ATC in a relevant and critical position- it would also put trail data in their hand via the permit system and deliver traffic to their site. It would serve as the gateway to the outreach the ATC wants to do. And it would start the conversation about impact, a conversation that can deepen as the program ages.

With relevant data and actual users they could then allocate/request funds across all agencies to address privy and fixed camp issues. They can also go to other donors with specific project proposals. The cook county forest preserve here solved a good deal of their litter problem simply installing an overabundance of garbage cans at trail heads and access points. Yes, somebody has to pick it up- but cheaper for them to send the garbage truck around than divert existing manpower to hand pick up litter with sticks and bags. And for that- the local county prison system and enforced community service program does the job quite nicely at little expense.

You will always find the odd grumbler or pirate dodging any rule- that's life. We are country founded by people who were grumblers and pirates who did their own thing. There are plenty who show up at permitted entry points and get turned away, I've been one of them. I've even dodged said permits in my day. Most comply though, most have a greater fear of not being able to start and generally follow rules. Works fine for the JMT as many point out. Even if you only saw 50% compliance the first year that would be a vast improvement. Be a little lax the first year, be friendly and forgiving- but it wouldn't take more than five years to find yourself with a generally complied with system.

If somebody says screw it, I'm starting at Fontana and skipping this Georgia permit BS- you still solved your problem. These folks will be a-holes regardless. They will chafe at the AMC huts, camp 100' from a caretaker to save $5, and do what they do. This population already exists, it won't get any bigger with a permit, it will just add the permit to their list of perceived grievances.

The Smokies permit fails because there is no physical place to comply, not even a self registration box like the Shennies- The AT has a physical place in Amicalola.
The Smokies permit fails because it is practically impossible to determine your date of entry. Not so for an AT permit- it's your first day- and even Bryson's buddy Katz could tell you what day they plan to start.
It also fails because it rubs the wrong way with hikers in general- "You can't tell me where to stay", generally means, "I got no F'ing idea where I will end up- and that's part of the reason I'm hiking." A Thru-hike permit would only limit starters per day, and first night shelter choice. From there you're on your own.

Eventually-
Maybe MacKaye's original vision will come to pass, of some fixed camps with outreach and education dotted along the way.
The AT is a gateway trail, Georgia is the doormat. It is what it is- simply adding somebody to the front stoop to shake hands, politely greet, and gently redirect would go a long way to stopping that doormat from getting so caked with mud the whole house is trashed. As DLP and DW point out- First impressions not only count, but set the tone. The JMT does this well.

You can either ask your guests to take off their shoes at the door, or spend your life washing the floor. And the funny thing- most every visitor is happy to comply with your request- all you gotta do is ask.

[Lauriep]

Keep these excellent suggestions, observations, insights, and analogies coming.

[swisscross]

If the numbers continue to grow as they predict the only reasonable way to slow down the impact is permitting and limiting the numbers of starters at Springer. If you are dead set on the AT and don't want to deal with the permitting process then a flip flop or Southbound we go.

I also believe by permitting the thru's will allow a pamphlet of sort to be sent to them regarding LNT and limiting the human impact.

The ATC needs to do something proactive before the numbers get truly out of hand.

I would hate for the AT have the regulations similar to the JMT, Wonderland, Glacier or the like but I would also hate to lose the lure and history of the trail due to a few bad eggs.